Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, Warhippy said:

*Shrugs in first Nations*

 

Awesome reply Hippy.  With all dignity and respect, wish for observance of this thought!

 

It's simply more complicated in such a hub of initial humanity & culture. So many with legitimate claims...

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

I've heard reports of a peace proposal. Yet I can't find anything in the news.

Maybe it's just a trial balloon. But if it means people get the help they need I'm all for it.

 

This is closest to a report I have seen.  A willingness to lay down arms, specifically 5 years, by Hamas is significant!

 

Some, including myself, believe this may be an attempt to hold some grip on power. Regardless significant.  First sign someone in Hamas cares about Palestinian lives.  

 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

16 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Anzac Cove ?

Wasn't that where Australians invaded a Muslim country half a world away

 

Probably, implausible certainty exists that Australia simply did as they were told by England. 

 

If you believe England or America have been abusive as 'Imperial' powers. It should serve that the Ottoman Empire was as bloodthirsty, rule by hammer regime as ever existed as well?

 

Take a look what they did to Christian Armenia as they were losing their grip around WWI.  Erdogan cites a historical right, Putin'ish, to sovereign Armenian territory to this day.    

[Ilunga]

Just now, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Probably, implausible certainty exists that Australia simply did as they were told by England. 

 

If you believe England or America have been abusive as 'Imperial' powers. It should serve that the Ottoman Empire was as bloodthirsty, rule by hammer regime as ever existed as well?

 

Take a look what they did to Christian Armenia as they were losing their grip around WWI.  Erdogan cites a historical right, Putin'ish, to sovereign Armenian territory to this day.    

 

I am really conversant with the history of Gallipoli.

It dates back to a Four Corners report over 40 years ago I watched.

 I then did more research and found out the facts I mentioned. 

 

In regards to your comments about Arabs nations in the region.

 

https://theconversation.com/who-were-we-fighting-at-gallipoli-13701

 

" ( The Cairo Conference of 1921 ) saw Churchill and his ," forty Thieves " parcel out the rewards to some favourites and make up some borders, stamping a political geography on the middle east that persists to this day. Only two Arabs were invited. Favourites like Faisal and Abdullah were given puppet kingdoms setting the scene for decades of squabbling and the eventual rise of Nationalists like Saddam Hussein and Hafez al-Assad a generation later. " 

 

And yes the Ottomans were a brutal empire.

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

If you are basing your claims to land/ country on religious beliefs, then they have no real validity. 

 

I have stated a few times that the " ideal " solution would be a one state solution. 

 

To me claims related to religion are opaque. As I am not religious. Claims about religion, heritage, family, ancestry & culture remain incredibly important. Valid; not for me to say? I went home to Saskatchewan twice in the last two years. I visited my Dad's, all four of my grandparents, 5 of my great grandparents & 2 of my great, great grandparents graves. Even great, great, great Nan! Saw pictures that my great, great granddad looked almost exactly like me; or I like him? Yet I live 1/2 a world & a century almost away. I have dozens of cousins that live within a 300KM radius. 

 

A perfect world, is a 'One State' solution. 

 

Who will accept everyone? 

 

The Jewish recapture of Hebron 1967 is in all regards illegal.  Less immoral, by far IMO, than facts that there are virtually no Jews remaining in Iraq, Tunisia, Morocco or Iran. Palestinians have every right to be in 'Palestine.'  Just not by themselves. Should they wish to lead?  Or the Jewish???  It is about who will embrace and accept alternate cultures as brothers in arms on this planet. 

[Ilunga]

Agree with all those things apart from religion.

 

I respect peoples right to believe whatever they want.

Religious people are like any group of people, good, bad and everything in-between. 

 

Religion must be separated from the state.

No if, buts or maybes.

 

Just as the nutjob mullahs in Iran need taking down, so do the religious nutjobs in the Isreali Knesset.

 

However claims that a god gave land to a people, or land claims based on religious reasons are BS. 

 

You, and others state the Palestinians don't want share, well many Isrealis feel this way. 

 

Roman has admitted he believes Jerusalem belongs to Isreal based on a mythical religious text.

He won't answer me when I ask how he feels about the west bank and the Gaza strip. 

That indicates to me he believes it all belongs to Isreal. 

 

As far as I am concerned the right of return to their countries belong to Jewish people, in regards to their return to Arab countries, just as the right of return belongs to the Palestinians who were forced out of Israel.

 

 

[Rook]

8 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

You should read my posts after this mate.

 

I explained I have no computer skills.

When I first posted those twitter sources, they were simply links.  

 

And again, they prove my point about the credibility of information sourced off twitter.

 

And anyway who is asking to to read them.

You could just scroll down through them, or ignore them all together. 

It took me a few seconds to scroll down to the next post.

 

 

 

How about you actually contribute something to this discussion. 

 

I am interested in everybody's views opinions on this unjust conflict.

Don’t get on a high horse with me, I have every right to read this thread without being spammed with links.  Your want to control the narrative in this thread does not supersede all of our rights to read without all the smarmy garbage.  I get it, you are passionate.  But it comes off as very arrogant and pushy.  Not everyone has to agree with your view.  My view?  Everyone is at fault here, Jews, and Palestinians. It’s something that’s been going on long before you and I and will continue long after we are gone.  Just because you feel you have the right view in this doesn’t make it right, the fact you post post 10-1 to other posters in here gets tiresome. Allow people to have their opinions without constantly bashing them.  Just like me pointing out how asinine it was for you to post 100 links, then you come at me about contributing a knock of the attitude bud, it’s a bad look.  
 

fyi.. its kinda hard to read your posts after when you are stuck in a death scroll to get out of all your links, one suffices, the rest is you trying to ram your thoughts down everyone’s throats.  The fact you tell me I don’t have to read them, well I didn’t and it still took took 30 seconds to scroll through to see posters that don’t try to own the discussion, take that stuff to private, remember this ain’t your thread bud. Its for discussion, not for someone to take the holier than though road. 
 

and you are right, this conflict is unjust, SAY IT WITH ME, for all sides!!

Edited April 26 by Rook
Typos

[Alflives]

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

This is closest to a report I have seen.  A willingness to lay down arms, specifically 5 years, by Hamas is significant!

 

Some, including myself, believe this may be an attempt to hold some grip on power. Regardless significant.  First sign someone in Hamas cares about Palestinian lives.  

 

 

 

 

Does Hamas (honestly) care about the lives of Gaza people? Imo these Hamas leaders only want to stay in power, rearm, and attack Israel more. The IDF needs to continue with their wiping out of Hamas. Search out their leaders and get them too. We shall see what happens. 

[Sabrefan1]

@Ilunga I just chose random tweets with video that was in a crapload of other tweets.

 

Were the videos posted fake?

[Sabrefan1]

7 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Why did you post all these?

 

Its too big a blast to make sense of.  Do you believe their media source is Trump BOT farms?  

 

 

Yeah.  That's weird that he did that.  I just chose accounts at random.  There were a crapload of tweets with the exact same videos.  I just didn't try to root out CFF-approved left wing sources because that could be exhausting and unnecessary.

 

I figure either he's saying the videos are fake, or he's upset about something considering he wallpapered an entire page with tweets.  If the tweets are from right wing sources, that doesn't diminish what's in the video unless the videos are fake.

Edited April 26 by Sabrefan1
clarity

[Sabrefan1]

Here's a Washington Post article on the protests and arrests from the videos.  WaPo is about as left as it gets.

 

 

Quote

Arrests at pro-Palestinian protests that expanded Thursday to colleges across the country brought the total number of people detained in a week of demonstrations to more than 500, with officials struggling to quell the unrest by clearing encampments and closing buildings.

 

A tumultuous scene and dozens of arrests late Wednesday at the University of Southern California pushed its administration to cancel the school’s main commencement ceremony scheduled for May 10, citing new safety measures that have been put in place after protests there.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/04/25/university-protests-gaza-arrests-emerson-usc/

[Sabrefan1]

NPR is pretty left wing.  They just suspended one of their older long time editors because he dared to point that out.

 

 

Mass arrests roil college campuses amid pro-Palestinian protests

https://www.npr.org/2024/04/25/1247091785/campus-protests-gaza-israel-arrests-usc-emerson-texas

[Sabrefan1]

Newsweek on the protests and arrests at UoT and USC.  Moderately left...

 

https://www.newsweek.com/pro-palestine-protests-100-arrested-university-texas-usc-1894018

[Gurn]

 

[Gurn]

1 minute ago, Sabrefan1 said:

Newsweek on the protests and arrests at UoT and USC.  Moderately left...

 

https://www.newsweek.com/pro-palestine-protests-100-arrested-university-texas-usc-1894018

What I find distressing about this whole protest thing is the complete lack of historical recollection.

History repeating.

Kent state. Cops/national guard shooting kids.

 

and round, round we go.

 

[Sabrefan1]

Just now, Gurn said:

What I find distressing about this whole protest thing is the complete lack of historical recollection.

History repeating.

Kent state. Cops/national guard shooting kids.

 

and round, round we go.

 

 

I think that's why most of the cops were only armed with billy clubs.  Kent State was tragic because people died.

 

----------------------

 

The problem with these protests are that the pro-palestinian side has a penchant on some of these campuses like Columbia Uni for going after Israeli and Jewish people on their campus.

 

When you start going after people for something that they were born and/or raised to be, my sympathy for you getting arrested ends.

[RomanPer]

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

This is closest to a report I have seen.  A willingness to lay down arms, specifically 5 years, by Hamas is significant!

 

Some, including myself, believe this may be an attempt to hold some grip on power. Regardless significant.  First sign someone in Hamas cares about Palestinian lives.  

 

 

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with them caring for the lives of Palestinians. It's just their attempt to survive and use these 5 years to rebuild and attack again to try and achieve their true goal.

[Bob Long]

11 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Well as I have pointed out, and provided evidence for my claims, what is happening know is not only morally/ethically wrong, it isn't and very probably will not work. 

 

Hamas cannot be destroyed by using violence.

Isrealis themselves are coming to realise this. 

 

You know what my experience in life is, if you treat people with kindness and compassion they are more likely to be receptive to your beliefs. 

 

Try giving aid and shelter to the Palestinian people.

 

Take away their need for resistance.

There need to support an organisation like Hamas.

 

 

 

 

OK but I still am unsure about how we get from today, to a democratic Gaza. 

[Bob Long]

11 hours ago, Warhippy said:

I have a paywall thingee i use but for some reason It won't open that story

 

 

Here's the text:

 

Spoiler

The conflict between Israel and Hamas is fast becoming a world war online.

Iran, Russia and, to a lesser degree, China have used state media and the world’s major social networking platforms to support Hamas and undercut Israel, while denigrating Israel’s principal ally, the United States.

Iran’s proxies in Lebanon, Syria and Iraq have also joined the fight online, along with extremist groups, like Al Qaeda and the Islamic State, that were previously at odds with Hamas.

The deluge of online propaganda and disinformation is larger than anything seen before, according to government officials and independent researchers — a reflection of the world’s geopolitical division.

“It is being seen by millions, hundreds of millions of people around the world,” said Rafi Mendelsohn, vice president at Cyabra, a social media intelligence company in Tel Aviv, “and it’s impacting the war in a way that is probably just as effective as any other tactic on the ground.” Cyabra has documented at least 40,000 bots or inauthentic accounts online since Hamas attacked Israel from Gaza on Oct. 7.

The content — visceral, emotionally charged, politically slanted and often false — has stoked anger and even violence far beyond Gaza, raising fears that it could inflame a wider conflict. Iran, though it has denied any involvement in the attack by Hamas, has threatened as much, with its foreign minister, Hossein Amir Abdollahian, warning of retaliation on “multiple fronts” if Israeli forces persisted in Gaza.

“It’s just like everyone is involved,” said Moustafa Ayad, executive director for Africa, the Middle East and Asia at the Institute for Strategic Dialogue. The institute, a nonprofit research organization in London, last week detailed influence campaigns by Iran, Russia and China.

The campaigns do not appear to be coordinated, American and other government officials and experts said, though they did not rule out cooperation.

Relations Between China and the U.S.

• Trouble on Horizon: Secretary of State Antony Blinken arrived in China to try to preserve the recent stabilization of ties between the United States and China, as tensions over trade, territorial disputes and national security threaten to derail relations again.
• America’s Favorite Drone Maker: U.S. authorities consider the Chinese company DJI a security threat. Congress is weighing legislation to ban it, prompting a lobbying campaign from the company, which dominates the commercial and consumer drone markets.
• Chinese Export Surge: The decision by a Massachusetts solar company to abandon plans to build a $1.4 billion U.S. factory highlights the risks amid a flood of Chinese clean energy exports.
• Biden’s Industrial Agenda: President Biden’s trillion-dollar effort to invigorate American manufacturing and speed a transition to cleaner energy sources is colliding with a surge of cheap exports from China, threatening to wipe out the investment and jobs central to his economic agenda.

While Iran, Russia and China each have different motivations in backing Hamas over Israel, they have pushed the same themes since the war began. They are not simply providing moral support, the officials and experts said, but also mounting overt and covert information campaigns to amplify one another and expand the global reach of their views across multiple platforms in multiple languages.

The Spanish arm of RT, the global Russian television network, for example, recently reposted a statement by the Iranian president calling the explosion at Al-Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza on Oct. 17 an Israeli war crime, even though Western intelligence agencies and independent analysts have since said a missile misfired from Gaza was a more likely cause of the blast.

Another Russian overseas news outlet, Sputnik India, quoted a “military expert” saying, without evidence, that the United States provided the bomb that destroyed the hospital. Posts like these have garnered tens of thousands of views.

 

“We’re in an undeclared information war with authoritarian countries,” James P. Rubin, the head of the State Department’s Global Engagement Center, said in a recent interview.

From the first hours of its attack, Hamas has employed a broad, sophisticated media strategy, inspired by groups like the Islamic State. Its operatives spread graphic imagery through bot accounts originating in places like Pakistan, sidestepping bans of Hamas on Facebook and X, formerly known as Twitter, according to Cyabra’s researchers.

A profile on X that bore the characteristics of an inauthentic account — @RebelTaha — posted 616 times in the first two days of the conflict, though it had previously featured content mostly about cricket, they said. One post featured a cartoon claiming a double standard in how Palestinian resistance toward Israel was cast as terrorism while Ukraine’s fight against Russia was self-defense.

Officials and experts who track disinformation and extremism have been struck by how quickly and extensively Hamas’s message has spread online. That feat was almost certainly fueled by the emotional intensity of the Israeli-Palestinian issue and by the graphic images of the violence, captured virtually in real time with cameras carried by Hamas gunmen. It was also boosted by extensive networks of bots and, soon afterward, official accounts belonging to governments and state media in Iran, Russia and China — amplified by social media platforms.

 

Image

 

In a single day after the conflict began, roughly one in four accounts on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and X posting about the conflict appeared to be fake, Cyabra found. In the 24 hours after the blast at Al-Ahli Arab Hospital, more than one in three accounts posting about it on X were.

The company’s researchers identified six coordinated campaigns on a scale so large, they said, that it suggested the involvement of nations or large nonstate actors.

The Institute for Strategic Dialogue’s report last week singled out Iranian accounts on Facebook and X that “have been spreading particularly harmful content that includes glorification of war crimes and violence against Israeli civilians and encouraging further attacks against Israel.”

Although the country’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, denied the country’s involvement in the attack, the accounts have depicted him as the leader of a “Pan-Islamic resistance” to Israel and neocolonial Western powers.

A series of posts on X by a state-affiliated outlet, Tasnim News Agency, said the United States was responsible for “the crimes” and showed a video of wounded Palestinians. On Telegram, accounts have also spread false or unverified content, including one widely debunked account that CNN had faked an attack on a television crew.

Cyabra also identified an online campaign in Arabic on X from Iraq, evidently from Shiite Muslim paramilitary groups supported by Iran, including the movement of Muqtada al-Sadr. A network of accounts posted identical messages and photos, using the hashtag #AmericasponsorIsraelTerrorism. Those posts peaked on Oct. 18 and 19, amassing more than 6,000 engagements, and had the potential to reach 10 million viewers, according to Cyabra.

Israel, which has its own sophisticated information operations, has found itself unexpectedly on the defensive.

“Like its military, Israel’s social media was caught flat-footed and responded days late,” said Ben Decker, the chief executive of Memetica, a threat intelligence consulting firm, and a former researcher for The New York Times. “The response, even when it got off the ground, was chaotic.”

Two Israeli government officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters, said Israel was tracking the bot activity from Iran and other countries. They noted that it was larger than any previous campaign they had seen.

The war has heightened concerns in Washington and other Western capitals that an alliance of authoritarian governments has succeeded in fomenting illiberal, antidemocratic sentiment, especially in Africa, South America and other parts of the world where accusations of American or Western colonialism or dominance find fertile soil.

Russia and China, which have grown increasingly close in recent years, appear intent to exploit the conflict to undermine the United States as much as Israel. The State Department’s Global Engagement Center, which combats state propaganda and disinformation, has in recent weeks detailed extensive campaigns by Russia and China to shape the global information environment to their advantage.

A week before Hamas attacked Israel, the State Department warned in a report that China was employing “deceptive and coercive methods” to sway global opinion behind its worldview. Since the war began, China has portrayed itself as a neutral peacemaker, while its officials have depicted the United States as a craven warmonger that suffered a “strategic failure in the Middle East.”

Accounts of Russian officials and state media have shared that sentiment. Numerous pro-Kremlin accounts on Telegram abruptly shifted after Oct. 7 from content about the war in Ukraine to post exclusively on Israel, including an Arabic-language channel linked to the Wagner Group, the Russian paramilitary force that rebelled against President Vladimir V. Putin in June.

 

Image

 

 

Mr. Putin, who met with Hamas leaders after the war began, described the wars in Ukraine and Israel as part of the same broad struggle against American global dominance. He also claimed, without evidence, that “Western intelligence services” were behind a riot on Sunday that targeted Jews at the airport in Dagestan, a predominantly Muslim region in southern Russia.

“They’re in a conflict, a geostrategic competition, with the United States,” said Michael Doran, a former White House and Pentagon official who is now director of the Center for Peace and Security in the Middle East at the Hudson Institute. “And they recognize that when Israel, the U.S.’s primary ally in the Middle East, is wrapped up in a war like this, it weakens the United States.”

 

[Bob Long]

24 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

This has nothing to do with them caring for the lives of Palestinians. It's just their attempt to survive and use these 5 years to rebuild and attack again to try and achieve their true goal.

 

seems most likely to me, hitch their identity to the PLO for a while to borrow some international credibility and move away from the Hamas image, and get back to it in a few years. Iran probably needs some time to re-stock now as well. 

[Bob Long]

@Warhippy another better researched article on the online info wars: https://www.isdglobal.org/digital_dispatches/capitalising-on-crisis-russia-china-and-iran-use-x-to-exploit-israel-hamas-information-chaos/

 

 

I don't think we can just discount the effect of this. Yes the Z's are smart group, but do you really think this has has no effect on public opinion in the US in particular? 

[D.B Cooper]

11 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I will admit my memory is really fucked due to many serious concussions, however I can't remember you ever criticising Isreals actions.

 

Would love you to prove me wrong.

 

And I apologise in advance if I am wrong.

IMO, each side is jam packed with aggressive religion filled cunts.  
They are all in the wrong. 

[Warhippy]

7 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

How do you feel about the Hashemite Kingdom?  Ruling over Jordan while 70% of its population is Palestinian. This portion of 'Palestine' is also where 80% of of its people landed between 1918 & 1948. 

 

Bashar al-Asaad, ruling over Syria as a totalitarian police state.   Alawite being an aprox. 20% minority.  The Taliban take over of Afghanistan. I am not sure what is happening in Iraq. The slaughter in Syria is ten times what has occurred in Gaza. 

 

In Gaza, Hamas at least 'represents' a majority. The same might be said of the Saudi Kingdom, Iran, Turkey.  Where minorities are almost non existent. Or oppressed and face similar systemic removal. Armenian Christians are suddenly, again, squeezed by Azeri's & Turkey.  Lets not talk about how well these countries offer dignity & courtesy to Yazidi & Kurdish people.  

 

Are these not examples of Genocide? Apartheid? 

 

Its convenient to hold the UN, US as complicit; yet Israeli neighbours, ruled by terrorists or autocrats, immunity from blame in this conflict. This is not one side only guilt!

 

 

Israel's 'enemies' have to embrace a place for Israel and other cultures in the Middle East.  All too many simply posture for their own piece of what shakes out. 

The moment those nations start starving families.  Bombing kids and murdering individuals openly while kicking them from their homes and claiming it is for peace or whatever nonsense for decades

 

Then you'll have an argument 

[Warhippy]

4 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Less immoral, by far IMO, than facts that there are virtually no Jews remaining in Iraq, Tunisia, Morocco or Iran. Palestinians have every right to be in 'Palestine.'  Just not by themselves. Should they wish to lead?  Or the Jewish???  It is about who will embrace and accept alternate cultures as brothers in arms on this planet. 

The people of the Jewish faith were not resettled in Iraq, Tunisia, Morocco or Iran though.  They were settled in Palestine.  "Their ancestral religious homeland"

 

This argument about their being no Jews in (insert place here) is ridiculous because the conflict is occurring where they were settled not where they weren't.

 

If there is nobody if that faith in those regions.  So be it.  It's immaterial to the issue at hand.

 

Someone getting pickles on their sub in line before me when I don't want pickles to begin with doesn't bother me.

[RomanPer]

3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

The people of the Jewish faith were not resettled in Iraq, Tunisia, Morocco or Iran though.  They were settled in Palestine.  "Their ancestral religious homeland"

 

This argument about their being no Jews in (insert place here) is ridiculous because the conflict is occurring where they were settled not where they weren't.

 

If there is nobody if that faith in those regions.  So be it.  It's immaterial to the issue at hand.

 

Someone getting pickles on their sub in line before me when I don't want pickles to begin with doesn't bother me.

 

Do you know how big Jewish communities in all these countries were prior to 1948? And what happened to all these  communities in the 50s?