Hamas attacking Israel

[The Lock]

3 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

I'm not going to have this argument, especially in this thread. I would think that israeli or American intelligence would love to pounce on this if it were there. Not only that, when you mentioned Israel is America's friend, they are also Russia's friend. So again I'm not having this conversation in this thread cuz I get it. Everything is russia's fault. They are such a powerful nation and control everything lol

 

I know you don't want to have a conversation here about it, but at least read this article. Al Jazeera tends to be a very fair source when it comes to just reporting facts: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/russia-israel-hamas

 

It's easy to just laugh and point and say "it's just people claiming everything's Russia's fault". However, you have to at least know there's a good chance there's a lot more to it than that. Chances are, you don't know the things that these people claiming it's Russia's fault know and there's nothing wrong with that; however, if you just suddenly start laughing at them in this manner... it's not much different than people from BC laughing at Albertans for some things.

[Ryan Strome]

2 minutes ago, Darius said:

I’ve thought about the Egyptian angle in all this. Haven’t they basically locked in the Palestinians on their side of the Gaza border? 

To be honest, I have no idea. I just know that a Jewish invasion and potential conquering of Arab land will only lead to thousands if not millions of deaths.

1 minute ago, The Lock said:

 

I know you don't want to have a conversation here about it, but at least read this article. Al Jazeera tends to be a very fair source when it comes to just reporting facts: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/russia-israel-hamas

 

It's easy to just laugh and point and say "it's just people claiming everything's Russia's fault". However, you have to at least know there's a good chance there's a lot more to it than that. Chances are, you don't know the things that these people claiming it's Russia's fault know and there's nothing wrong with that; however, if you just suddenly start laughing at them in this manner... it's not much different than people from BC laughing at Albertans for some things.

I will check it out. But yeah, I don't want to derail this thread.

[King Heffy]

6 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

Palestinians can’t rid themselves of Hamas as they are effectivrly prisoners. They can’t arm themselves, or import food or building materials. 
 

the only way to get rid of Hamas would be for Israel to say: if you  Palestinian citizens get rid of Hamas, we will lift the blockade and reverse settlement building in the West Bank, and if you personally hand over a confirmed Hamas terrorist, we’ll discuss how you can come home if you were forced out of your town at gunpoint by settlers. Also here’s an AR-15, get to work. 

I can get on board with that.

[Darius]

7 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

Palestinians can’t rid themselves of Hamas as they are effectivrly prisoners. They can’t arm themselves, or import food or building materials. 
 

the only way to get rid of Hamas would be for Israel to say: if you  Palestinian citizens get rid of Hamas, we will lift the blockade and reverse settlement building in the West Bank, and if you personally hand over a confirmed Hamas terrorist, we’ll discuss how you can come home if you were forced out of your town at gunpoint by settlers. Also here’s an AR-15, get to work. 

Appreciate your opinions.  I don’t want to come across as argumentative or insensitive. Years ago I started reading about this dispute then I got on to reading sources like Chomsky and Finklestein who are harsh critics ( to say the least) of the Israeli government .

 

This is an extremely complicated matter. I don’t think it can be solved while extremists are in  charge.  It’s a chicken and egg problem. How do you get rid of extremists who fester and flourish in this perpetual human suffering.   You bring up valid points about how this can be unravelled.  It’s awful seeing human beings suffer. 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

11 minutes ago, Darius said:

Appreciate your opinions.  I don’t want to come across as argumentative or insensitive. Years ago I started reading about this dispute then I got on to reading sources like Chomsky and Finklestein who are harsh critics ( to say the least) of the Israeli government .

 

This is an extremely complicated matter. I don’t think it can be solved while extremists are in  charge.  It’s a chicken and egg problem. How do you get rid of extremists who fester and flourish in this perpetual human suffering.   You bring up valid points about how this can be unravelled.  It’s awful seeing human beings suffer. 

You’re not wrong there will be no peace with extremists in charge

 

That means Hamas needs to go, and Netanyahu needs to go too. Israel needs to go back to a PM like Ehud Barak and Hamas needs to be exterminated and replaced with Fatah or a similar organization 

[Sharpshooter]

1 hour ago, Ryan Strome said:

Oh FFS! This is like living through the cold war. Blame everything on Russia. 

No one is blaming ‘everything’ on Russia. 
 

Personally, I don’t put anything past Putin. 
 

However, evidence needs to link the two together, for me, but again any information about the possibility of the link isn’t terrible in and of itself. 

 

Either it can be corroborated or it can’t be. Wait and see. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Wow, that’s fucked up. Too much of a coincidence for me. What are the odds Hams attacks Israel on Putin’s birthday?   

 

1 in 365? 

[Ryan Strome]

2 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

No one is blaming ‘everything’ on Russia. 
 

Personally, I don’t put anything past Putin. 
 

However, evidence needs to link the two together, for me, but again any information about the possibility of the link isn’t terrible in and of itself. 

 

Either it can be corroborated or it can’t be. Wait and see. 
 

 

I agree with your point here but I mean this conflict goes a lot longer than since Putin has been president. I do believe if there was even an ounce of suspicion that they were behind it, the United States would be running with that story left right and center as with the Ukrainians. Weather we like it or not we have to remember Putin and Russia are also allies of Israel Or used to be.

[Sharpshooter]

50 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

 

 

 

But yet not a word from the Israeli government about it. Don't you think it would be wise of them to point out this evidence? 

 

But yes, I'm sure ones suspicion coupled with a YouTube video should be compelling enough.

Evidence is required first before a government can accuse another of malfeasance. 
 

In this case, it has to be irrefutable, I reckon. 

[Ryan Strome]

3 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Evidence is required first before a government can accuse another of malfeasance. 
 

In this case, it has to be irrefutable, I reckon. 

Well, I don't want to derail this thread but as a Canadian I'm sure you can understand why I would be skeptical of that response.

[Sharpshooter]

1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said:

I agree with your point here but I mean this conflict goes a lot longer than since Putin has been president. I do believe if there was even an ounce of suspicion that they were behind it, the United States would be running with that story left right and center as with the Ukrainians. Weather we like it or not we have to remember Putin and Russia are also allies of Israel Or used to be.

Of course the Palestinian/Israeli conflict precedes Putin. I agree. 
 

I could see, however, Putin meddling to deplete ammo away from Ukraine by having the West supply Israel against Hamas. 
 

Things and people that Putin doesn’t give two shits about. The fruits of it though, could be beneficial. It’s actually a decent chess move, in the most horrendous way for the people suffering and dying…again, which Putin wouldn’t care about in the least. 

Just now, Ryan Strome said:

Well, I don't want to derail this thread but as a Canadian I'm sure you can understand why I would be skeptical of that response.

Let’s not derail then. 
 

Cheers. 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

37 minutes ago, Darius said:

I’ve thought about the Egyptian angle in all this. Haven’t they basically locked in the Palestinians on their side of the Gaza border? 

So the thing there is this is actually Israel’s most preferred outcome - push Palestinians off the last sliver of “Palestinian land”. Then not only do these refugees become egypts problem to deal with, the last remaining part of the land god promised Israel can be conquered

 

this is the playbook being run in the West Bank right now. Keep building settlements, evict a few thousand Palestinians at a time using military force, until they simply give up their last remaining sliver of their homeland. 
 

I wish I was exaggerating or using rhetoric but I’m not. The entire international community knows this as well, and has been condemning Israel for it these past 2 decades. 
 

if you haven’t, do a quick search up on Deir Yassin. Deir Yassin was a Palestinian village, and jewish paramilitary organizations murdered the citizens and spread the word to get Palestinians out of their homes in Haifa, Jaffa, and other towns that would eventually become Israel. 
 

over 500 villages and towns like Deir Yassin were cleansed by Irgun and Stern Gang, to make room for Jewish migrants from Europe and North America.
 

if you go ask these people in gaza what they want - it’s one very simple thing: they just want to go home. If they’re from Haifa, they want to go back to Haifa. They don’t want to live in an open air prison and they certainly don’t want to abandon their homeland entirely and become stateless refugees under control of Egypt 

[RomanPer]

I wish I would be able to not see the ignored user's posts in the other people's responses also  

[eeeeeeeeergh]

2 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Of course the Palestinian/Israeli conflict precedes Putin. I agree. 
 

I could see, however, Putin meddling to deplete ammo away from Ukraine by having the West supply Israel against Hamas. 
 

Things and people that Putin doesn’t give two shits about. The fruits of it though, could be beneficial. It’s actually a decent chess move, in the most horrendous way for the people suffering and dying…again, which Putin wouldn’t care about in the least. 

Let’s not derail then. 
 

Cheers. 

just to throw a wrench into the mix here

 

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia has been one of the few countries that’s vocally and aggressively advocated for Palestinian statehood and rights. 
 

Russia was at times the only world power trying to stop Israel’s settlement building and used its influence in the UN to get a general assembly resolution to include Palestine in the UN. The US and Israel opposed of course. 

[Sharpshooter]

9 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

just to throw a wrench into the mix here

 

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia has been one of the few countries that’s vocally and aggressively advocated for Palestinian statehood and rights. 
 

Russia was at times the only world power trying to stop Israel’s settlement building and used its influence in the UN to get a general assembly resolution to include Palestine in the UN. The US and Israel opposed of course. 

Russia acting against the U.S., is par for the course. 
 

If the U.S. was against Israel, Russia,

would take Israel’s side. 
 

Russia just Russia’ing. 

[King Heffy]

9 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

just to throw a wrench into the mix here

 

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia has been one of the few countries that’s vocally and aggressively advocated for Palestinian statehood and rights. 
 

Russia was at times the only world power trying to stop Israel’s settlement building and used its influence in the UN to get a general assembly resolution to include Palestine in the UN. The US and Israel opposed of course. 

Now think for a second why a country ran by a subhuman maniac would be doing this.  

[Sharpshooter]

14 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

I wish I would be able to not see the ignored user's posts in the other people's responses also  

You’re going to suffer my posts Roman, no matter how much you ignore me! 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

First signs of proof of Russian connection to the attack. On the video below in several places one can hear Russian words “Prikryvajte, prikryvajte!” (means “cover, cover”). This is a video from the October 7 attack. The new information (still waiting for confirmations on that) is that the instructors were actually Russian GRU officers and the information about Wagner was deliberate disinformation started by the Russians themselves.

 

 

 

Little Green men, biting more than they can chew?

 

46 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

I honestly had my suspicions even before you posted yours, but had no source other than my own guess.  Russia really wants to avoid Israel deciding to strike the Iranian drone factories.

 

No surprise.

 

Russia, Wagner have long been allied to Asaad, fighting beside & supporting his regime in Syria. Linked to Hezbollah, Iran, in particular PFLP, Popular Front for Liberation Palestine for many years. Hezbollah leaders, like all the various militia groups buy, become rich & support their activities in gun running, 'security,' arms markets, human trafficking & other illegal trades who's routes & opportunities proliferate the region. Victimized cultures are endless opportunity for extortion, profit. Until there are stable, and law abiding sovereign nations in the ME?  This will never end.    

 

Once in control of military and police? Laundering money through the ME & Africa amongst the most profitable currency markets in the world. Palestinian Yasir Arafat died amongst the wealthiest men in history. Saddam Hussein, Egyptian Mubarak, Yemeni Ali Abdullah Saleh, Muammar Gaddafi all similar. Current African leaders, Taliban, Asaad, Putin.

 

Such leaders usually started & rose to power as regional leaders, with thugs & guns from such activities? Remain with a vested interest in status quo. Including anti semitism. It is good business! Putin, Wagner, are in like a dirty shirt. Control over their own people keeps them wealthy. 

 

 

 

 

Turkey’s Erdogan negotiating with Hamas for hostages’ release — report

 

I have always wondered where Erdogan fits; Hamas and Hezbollah leaders have palaces in Turkey. In quickly trying to find middle ground; ''negotiating'' release of Israeli prisoners in Gaza right now? He is, of course, well connected.

 

I posted in the old CDC that among Putin's goals; I speculated extending through the Caucasus where they already have quasi control. To Syria & Lebanon which would provide perhaps his biggest, also most plausible, victory? Direct access to Mediterranean ports, Middle Eastern oil. Sinai, another stretch, controlling much world trade through Suez.  

[Playoff Beered]

France bans all pro-Palestinian protests

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/europe/france-ban-pro-palestinian-intl/index.html

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67088547

Edited October 13, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[RomanPer]

5 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

France bans all pro-Palestinian protests

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/europe/france-ban-pro-palestinian-intl/index.html

 

FAFO, hopefully.

[Scottish Canuck 2.0]

31 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

I wish I would be able to not see the ignored user's posts in the other people's responses also  

God forbid anyone criticise Israel. 
 

Brainwashed.

[24K]

9 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

France bans all pro-Palestinian protests

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/europe/france-ban-pro-palestinian-intl/index.html

Macron showing clear bias here. Unless the rally contains cheering of Israeli deaths and active cheering of Hamas (should be dispersed and those participating be dealt with to the highest extent of the law), they should not be banned for advocating for Palestianian civilians. 

 

The reason they give of this causing unrest also applies to pro Israeli demonstrations as both jews and muslims make a good portion of their population. Both should be curbed if they go this route. Doing it to only one side is just going to anger the other and be counter productive. 

[Rusty Shackleford]

So much hate and anger in the world.  If we put this energy into solving problems instead of fighting each other we could probably end all of the suffering. 

 

Humans as a species are at that point where we need to decide to either continue wars and transgressions of the past, or finally put those aside in the name of human life and peace.  

 

Hope it comes in my lifetime but I'm not holding my breath.  WW3 seems more likely than peace in Earth.

[Canuck Surfer]

14 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Control over their own people keeps them wealthy. 

 

I personally crave that Israel could take leadership in the world of integrity. 

 

Their position is its not their responsibility for law and order over Gaza.  Don't seem concerned over being heavy handed, indignant at other times, in West Bank. It would help if their own lawless approach to control over occupied territories became a goal? One third parties could monitor. Like Ukraine having to clean up corruption to join the EU.

 

Yet they are in discussion, famously, with the Saudis' over peace?  Is it on the horizon.  And will transparent rule of law emerge?

 

16 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Such (Middle Eastern) leaders usually started & rose to power as regional leaders, with thugs & guns from such activities? Remain with a vested interest in status quo. Including anti semitism.

 

Crushing opposition is more practical, instinctive!

 

Its doubtful Israel can count on Hamas & Hezbollah leaders seeding to a rule of law. In any peace negotiation? My sense is it will take a generation.  A Gandhi like leader will have to emerge on top of the regions thugs.  Not that India reminds me of a law abiding administration ATM. Yet this is what Palestinian & Lebanese cultures need to offer to Israel before real peace could be considered. 

 

Is there a credible ME admin you could include with UN as peacekeepers in Gaza?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Playoff Beered]

6 minutes ago, 24K said:

Macron showing clear bias here. Unless the rally contains cheering of Israeli deaths and active cheering of Hamas (should be dispersed and those participating be dealt with to the highest extent of the law), they should not be banned for advocating for Palestianian civilians. 

 

The reason they give of this causing unrest also applies to pro Israeli demonstrations as both jews and muslims make a good portion of their population. Both should be curbed if they go this route. Doing it to only one side is just going to anger the other and be counter productive. 

 

That's exactly what was and is happening. France has dealt with a lot of rioting lately, they probably would rather just nip it in the bud instead of trying to separate bad actors from people showing solidarity with Palestinian civilians.

 

 

[Inkidu]

What's this I hear about tomorrow, friday the 13th, being declared world jihad day? Is this serious?