Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

You were trying to minimize what was happening in a Burnaby school my friend. Nobody said it was worse than what was happening to kids in Gaza. You were the one who made that reference. If nobody else is talking about the kids in Gaza than by all means you can certainly be the leader on that discussion. Has someone stopped you from doing so?

 

The point of my previous post was that this is Vancouver discussion board. So events that are happening in and around Vancouver in relation to the war in Gaza are important to us folks who are living here. That’s why it was brought up as a discussion. I’m sure as someone who doesn’t live here you could care less what they are teaching in a Burnaby school. But I do. And so do many others. So why try and minimize it?  It’s not for you to minimize. It’s for posters living in Vancouver to discuss if they want to. That’s all I was really saying. 
 

Dave, you know that I know that you care. If you didn’t you wouldn’t be here. You are passionate about what is happening in Gaza. It’s a travesty really. Something that will be talked about in the history books for decades to come. I have no doubt it will be taught in schools and even to children. But now is not the right time to be asking 11 year old kids in Burnaby if Israel has the right to exist. I’m sorry, but that is my belief and you won’t be able to change my mind my friend. Cheers. 

 

Where did I state that it is OK to ask an 11 year old, does Israel have the right to exist ?

 

I didn't.

 

I stated I don't believe that is a hate message.

 

You do know that no state " has the right to exist " under international law or any serious theory of international relations.

... Right ?

 

 

" Israel has " no right to exist - and neither does any state "

 

https://theconversation.com/israel-has-no-right-to-exist-and-neither-does-any-other-state-1668

 

"The problem with such a demand is that no such abstract " right to exist " can be found in international law or in any serious theory of international relations.

 

 

" To put it succinctly a " right to exist " does not exist for states.

Nor does such a right exist in practice. Australia, for example, does not recognise Israel's " right to exist " nor do any other states. 

 

Peoples right to live in peace

 

The right for a state to exist should not be confused or conflated with either the right to self determination or diplomatic recognition. The first is a right invested in people, usually nations, who want to be governed in common or as an independent or sovereign political community. 

 

The latter is simply a political and convenience of international society.

 

Nor should Israel's  " right to exist " be confused with its people " right to live in peace with secure and recognised boundaries " the wording of the United Nations Security council Resolution 242. 

 

That right exists for all peoples regardless of their geographic location: for Israelis and Palestinians equally. Not for states.

 

No state has inherent legitimacy.

 

" States change their borders and come and go out of existence all the time. No state has inherent legitimacy. 

 

Proclaiming a " right to exist " gives no stare additional security or a greater sense of permanence in the international system. "

 

So no Elias, Israel, Canada, Australia, whatever country territory you would like to name has no " right to exist ".

 

What everyone, everywhere has the right to, is to live in peace and safety.

A safe place to raise their kids, food on the table, access to an education and healthcare.

The most fundamental human rights.

 

This includes the people of Israel, Gaza and the Occupied territories.

 

The people this thread/discussion is primarily about.

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

An Israeli soldier shot a 2 year old in the head on purpose?

 

Sorry If I am a disbeliever.  There are crimes that are disconcerting.  Aid workers, reporters. I won't be the one to avoid acknowledging actual fact. Settlers...

 

And, I don't know if you have been watching any news much?  There is heaps of pressure on Israel. Israel is under pressure in spite of specific attacks targeting their civilians. Israel is being told to leave Hamas alone because of civilian casualties.  I personally call for a siege, not forgiveness or an all out attack of Hamas. Its not up to me though.  

 

If you were in school; you would get a please explain yourself!  Please tell me how Hamas is doing the same thing in a civil manner?

 

That suggestion is daft.

 

 

 

 

 

Hippy provided a British source for the murder of Mohammed Tamimi.

 

Here is a Canadian source, CBC. 

 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-palestinian-children-west-bank-1.7062531

 

" One example of that is two and a half year old child Mohammed Tamimi who was shot in the head by Israeli gunfire in June while buckled into the seat of a parked vehicle. The Israeli military blamed his death on confusion following the sound of gunfire in the area. "

 

Oops, we accidentally shot a two year old child in the head, who was in a car,  because we heard the sound of gunfire in the area...... seriously ?

[Canuck Surfer]

22 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Hippy provided a British source for the murder of Mohammed Tamimi.

 

Here is a Canadian source, CBC. 

 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-palestinian-children-west-bank-1.7062531

 

" One example of that is two and a half year old child Mohammed Tamimi who was shot in the head by Israeli gunfire in June while buckled into the seat of a parked vehicle. The Israeli military blamed his death on confusion following the sound of gunfire in the area. "

 

Oops, we accidentally shot a two year old child in the head, who was in a car,  because we heard the sound of gunfire in the area...... seriously ?

 

I posted a video where a family of 5 watched as one of them, their 18 year old daughter. Was dragged aside and shot in the head witnessed by the family.

 

Then the husband was taken hostage.  He has yet to be released. This is all clearly premeditated.

 

I do believe the 2 year old is dead, but no. I do not believe he was targeted. 

 

Could it have been managed better, all of it managed better? Fair argument. It is. But these things are not equal.

 

 

If you want carnage to stop; call for the return of hostages.  Call for Hamas to stop hiding in tunnels.  Come out and surrender. Tactically they cannot defeat the military strength of Israel. Its a dumb war, always was! Instead they are launching missiles at civilian targets in Israel. Israel does not really have a choice.

 

From area's where there are refugee's.  People also asked why Israel entered hospitals? Because people were shooting at them.

 

Does Israel; give up. Go home.  Leave Hamas in charge.  Wait for the next set of kidnappings?

 

 

 

  

[Ilunga]

43 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I posted a video where a family of 5 watched as one of them, their 18 year old daughter. Was dragged aside and shot in the head witnessed by the family.

 

Then the husband was taken hostage.  He has yet to be released. This is all clearly premeditated.

 

I do believe the 2 year old is dead, but no. I do not believe he was targeted. 

 

Could it have been managed better, all of it managed better? Fair argument. It is. But these things are not equal.

 

 

If you want carnage to stop; call for the return of hostages.  Call for Hamas to stop hiding in tunnels.  Come out and surrender. Tactically they cannot defeat the military strength of Israel. Its a dumb war, always was! Instead they are launching missiles at civilian targets in Israel. Israel does not really have a choice.

 

From area's where there are refugee's.  People also asked why Israel entered hospitals? Because people were shooting at them.

 

Does Israel; give up. Go home.  Leave Hamas in charge.  Wait for the next set of kidnappings?

 

 

 

  

 

Yes and we have all condemned Hamas, time and time again.

 

But what you are doing is whataboutism.

 

The subject at hand is the IDF targeting children, and the elderly for that matter.

 

Willing to believe that Mohammed Tamimi's death was an " accident ", well I don't.

 

How about this, are you willing to take the word of a Canadian doctor in regards to Israel targeting children.

 

 

" Not a normal war. Doctors say children have been targeted Isreali snipers in Gaza "

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war

 

" I asked the nurse, what's the history ?, she said they were brought in a couple of hours ago. They had sniper shots to the brain. They were seven or eight years old, she said. 

 

The Canadians doctor heart sank. These were not the first children treated by Alvi who she was told were targeted by Israeli soldiers, and she knew the damage a single high calibre bullet could do to a fragile young body. 

 

They were not able to talk, they were paraplegic. They were literally lying down as vegetables on those beds. They were not the only ones. I even saw small children with direct sniper shot wounds to the head as well as in the chest. They were not combatants, they were small children, she said. "

 

" Nine doctors gave accounts of working in Gaza hospitals this year, all but one of them foreign volunteers. Their common assessment was that most of the dead and wounded children they treated were hit by shrapnel or burned during Israel's extensive bombardment of residential neighbourhoods, in some cases wiping out entire families. Others were killed or injured by collapsing buildings with still more missing under the rubble. 

 

" But doctors also reported treating a steady stream of children, elderly people and others who were clearly not combatants with single bullet wounds to the head or the chest. "

 

Single bullet wounds to the head or the chest ? 

Diagnosed by foreign volunteer doctors ? 

 

 

Edited June 6 by Ilunga

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

There are no less than 70 SEVENTY recorded killings of kids 16 or under by the IDF over the past 15 years.  easily verifiable

 

I'm on record as Israel needing to be held accountable for being heavy handed. Specifically having addressed and posted such abuses as you mention. Called for Israel to stand up, hold itself accountable for such actions as the first world more powerful nation.  Take a lead role and responsibility to create opportunity for peace.

 

Not just for the death of teenage protestors shot by the IDF. IDF has a shoot first policy if kids are throwing rocks.  For settler violence which has included murder.  It has also happened in reverse, but then the IDF storms in. There have been rampages and storming the town events at both Mosques and Palestinian sections of East Jerusalem. Reporters, I assume under the guise they are Hamas agents, have also famously been shot.  You won't get any argument from me there were indiscretions that included murder on an ongoing systematic basis. Land which has been claimed, or bought at pennies on the dollar via unreasonable pressures I also have called to be returned. Even suggested historic restitutions for families who legitimately lost land in 1948, just as Jewish families received payments from Germany after the fact. 

 

Not that it excuses any of which I just acknowledged. Nor my position they need to take the lead role!

 

Most of this has been in the West Bank.  Which also has open borders with Jordan, Syria & Lebanon.  Not just tunnels.  I do not believe all activities of Israel are reasonable; but there has been significant civil war & terrorist activity in Syria & Lebanon. Even more serious regional conflict over the next border in Iraq.  Historical attacks on Israel over the last 80 years from all neighboring countries and militant groups. Israel, IMO, has some justification for security stakes they have taken in West Bank, Golan Heights.  Mixed with opportunistic abuse while they are there notwithstanding.  Its worth mentioning Islamic countries that are hostile, if not actual enemies? Iran & Turkey have larger security zones in Syria & Iraq than Israel does in the West Bank. Yes people are dying at the same rate in those security zones.

 

Historically they have been dying at much higher rates.  Again not that it excuses Israeli crimes. 350,000 civilians were killed in Aleppo 8 years ago.  Hamas & Hezbollah were both active combatants. Even more in Iraq & again these Hezbollah & Hamas terrorist groups had their hand in the kitty.  As soldiers for hire as militants. Expanding their own territories, ''area's of influence.'' Forming alliances, trade routes, sources of support. Made money in illegal weapons trading, black markets.  A percentage of which was funnelled back to the West Bank, Gaza. Where terrorist attacks are also a legitimate issue. This Gaza invasion is terrible. Yet it is just one event in a greater geo-political sphere that dwarfs the 40,000 deaths in Gaza. 40,000 civilians died in one day in Iraq. Those same geo political factors remain a part of this conflict.

 

Gaza?  Israel gave up its security zone & territory seized during the 1967 six day war from Egypt here in 2006. Forcefully withdrew any citizens who did not want to leave. Hamas launched attacks on Israel as quickly as it rejected an opportunity for a two state solution.  Which included some withdrawals from West Bank & East Jerusalem as its capital.  Rejected, then started war with Israel. Started one Oct 7.  Started one in between.    

 

With apologies; this is not as simple as Israel should withdraw cap in hand leaving Hamas with their spoils.  

 

I respect your outrage to death and destruction, not the lack of respect to overall circumstance.

 

And I have not even started on Hamas as a governing body representing its people. I do not see them as a legitimate government interests. I would like to see this evolve for Palestinians, just not Hamas.  I see them as terrorists. You are entitled to your views, as is Ilunga. I view, and I'm allowed mine, those points as too short sighted to all factors involved.

 

[Ilunga]

15 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I'm on record as Israel needing to be held accountable for being heavy handed. Specifically having addressed and posted such abuses as you mention. Called for Israel to stand up, hold itself accountable for such actions as the first world more powerful nation.  Take a lead role and responsibility to create opportunity for peace.

 

Not just for the death of teenage protestors shot by the IDF. IDF has a shoot first policy if kids are throwing rocks.  For settler violence which has included murder.  It has also happened in reverse, but then the IDF storms in. There have been rampages and storming the town events at both Mosques and Palestinian sections of East Jerusalem. Reporters, I assume under the guise they are Hamas agents, have also famously been shot.  You won't get any argument from me there were indiscretions that included murder on an ongoing systematic basis. Land which has been claimed, or bought at pennies on the dollar via unreasonable pressures I also have called to be returned. Even suggested historic restitutions for families who legitimately lost land in 1948, just as Jewish families received payments from Germany after the fact. 

 

Not that it excuses any of which I just acknowledged. Nor my position they need to take the lead role!

 

Most of this has been in the West Bank.  Which also has open borders with Jordan, Syria & Lebanon.  Not just tunnels.  I do not believe all activities of Israel are reasonable; but there has been significant civil war & terrorist activity in Syria & Lebanon. Even more serious regional conflict over the next border in Iraq.  Historical attacks on Israel over the last 80 years from all neighboring countries and militant groups. Israel, IMO, has some justification for security stakes they have taken in West Bank, Golan Heights.  Mixed with opportunistic abuse while they are there notwithstanding.  Its worth mentioning Islamic countries that are hostile, if not actual enemies? Iran & Turkey have larger security zones in Syria & Iraq than Israel does in the West Bank. Yes people are dying at the same rate in those security zones.

 

Historically they have been dying at much higher rates.  Again not that it excuses Israeli crimes. 350,000 civilians were killed in Aleppo 8 years ago.  Hamas & Hezbollah were both active combatants. Even more in Iraq & again these Hezbollah & Hamas terrorist groups had their hand in the kitty.  As soldiers for hire as militants. Expanding their own territories, ''area's of influence.'' Forming alliances, trade routes, sources of support. Made money in illegal weapons trading, black markets.  A percentage of which was funnelled back to the West Bank, Gaza. Where terrorist attacks are also a legitimate issue. This Gaza invasion is terrible. Yet it is just one event in a greater geo-political sphere that dwarfs the 40,000 deaths in Gaza. 40,000 civilians died in one day in Iraq. Those same geo political factors remain a part of this conflict.

 

Gaza?  Israel gave up its security zone & territory seized during the 1967 six day war from Egypt here in 2006. Forcefully withdrew any citizens who did not want to leave. Hamas launched attacks on Israel as quickly as it rejected an opportunity for a two state solution.  Which included some withdrawals from West Bank & East Jerusalem as its capital.  Rejected, then started war with Israel. Started one Oct 7.  Started one in between.    

 

With apologies; this is not as simple as Israel should withdraw cap in hand leaving Hamas with their spoils.  

 

I respect your outrage to death and destruction, not the lack of respect to overall circumstance.

 

And I have not even started on Hamas as a governing body representing its people. I do not see them as a legitimate government interests. I would like to see this evolve for Palestinians, just not Hamas.  I see them as terrorists. You are entitled to your views, as is Ilunga. I view, and I'm allowed mine, those points as too short sighted to all factors involved.

 

 

Speaking of East Jerusalem.

It was religious nutjob march day today in East Jerusalem. 

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm55dp8x5keo

 

" Crowds waving flags and shouting anti - Arab slogans gathered outside the old city's Damascus gate before marching to the western wall through the Muslim quarter. 

 

People said that 18 people were arrested, five for attacking Journalists. 

Israel's Haaretz newspaper whose journalist Nir Hasson was among those assaulted - reported that hundreds of young men rampaged through the Muslim quarter before the event began chanting, " death to Arabs " and attacking Palestinians and other people. "

 

Israel offered east Jerusalem ?

 

Here are the actual details of the agreement that was proposed by Clinton.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-agreed-to-give-up-sovereignty-in-part-of-jerusalem-old-city-in-2000-document/

 

And what they " might " have agreed to they have changed their mind.

 

From the first article 

 

" Israel, which occupied the formerly - Jordanian held east of the city in 1967 and effectively annexed it in 1980 in a move not recognised by most countries - regards the whole of Jerusalem as it's capital. "

[Taxi]

15 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Hippy provided a British source for the murder of Mohammed Tamimi.

 

Here is a Canadian source, CBC. 

 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-palestinian-children-west-bank-1.7062531

 

" One example of that is two and a half year old child Mohammed Tamimi who was shot in the head by Israeli gunfire in June while buckled into the seat of a parked vehicle. The Israeli military blamed his death on confusion following the sound of gunfire in the area. "

 

Oops, we accidentally shot a two year old child in the head, who was in a car,  because we heard the sound of gunfire in the area...... seriously ?

 

What do you think urban warfare against an enemy that doesn't wear uniforms is like? Do you think you always have both a clear view and the time to properly access every portion? What about friendly fire incidents? In the gulf war 1/4 of all USA deaths were the result of friendly fire:

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/long-unfortunate-history-friendly-fire-accidents-u-s-conflicts

 

Is that purposeful? Or could that have to do with the general fog of war. How is the fog of war affected when you have an enemy that does everything they can to disguise and bury themselves amongst civilians?

 

And yes, I find the killing of a two year old a tragedy. I don't think you've done anything to establish that the IDF purposely killed that child though. The only one doing anything purposeful is Hamas, who is using them as shields.

 

Edit:

 

Here's the actual story:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65917357

 

The soldier mistook the car for a gunman's car, after a second soldier - in violation of protocol - fired a weapon in the air. The IDF then used a military transport to transport the child to an Israeli hospital for treatment, but couldn't save him and he died 4 days after treatment.

 

 

Edited June 6 by Taxi

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Taxi said:

 

What do you think urban warfare against an enemy that doesn't wear uniforms is like? Do you think you always have both a clear view and the time to properly access every portion? What about friendly fire incidents? In the gulf war 1/4 of all USA deaths were the result of friendly fire:

 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/long-unfortunate-history-friendly-fire-accidents-u-s-conflicts

 

Is that purposeful? Or could that have to do with the general fog of war. How is the fog of war affected when you have an enemy that does everything they can to disguise and bury themselves amongst civilians?

 

And yes, I find the killing of a two year old a tragedy. I don't think you've done anything to establish that the IDF purposely killed that child though. The only one doing anything purposeful is Hamas, who is using them as shields.

 

Foreign volunteer doctors stating there is a steady stream of children coming in with single shot bullet wounds to the head or the chest.

 

I will believe the doctors who are on the ground there with the medical expertise to diagnose what has happened to these kids.

 

To say this is " friendly fire " is ridiculous. 

 

I have already pointed out what friendly fire is in this conflict.

 

Israel killing close to 20 percent of their own soldiers who have been killed in this conflict.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/5-soldiers-killed-7-hurt-in-friendly-fire-incident-in-northern-gazas-jabaliya/

 

Again that's the difference between us.

 

We both condemn the murdering scum/ Hamas.

 

However you apologise for the IDF who target and murder children. 

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Foreign volunteer doctors stating there is a steady stream of children coming in with single shot bullet wounds to the head or the chest.

 

I will believe the doctors who are on the ground there with the medical expertise to diagnose what has happened to these kids.

 

To say this is " friendly fire " is ridiculous. 

 

I have already pointed out what friendly fire is in this conflict.

 

Israel killing close to 20 percent of their own soldiers who have been killed in this conflict.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/5-soldiers-killed-7-hurt-in-friendly-fire-incident-in-northern-gazas-jabaliya/

 

Again that's the difference between us.

 

We both condemn the murdering scum/ Hamas.

 

However you apologise for the IDF who target and murder children. 

What exactly should Israel do considering Hamas wants them totally wiped out? Just turn the other cheek? 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

What exactly should Israel do considering Hamas wants them totally wiped out? Just turn the other cheek? 

 

Not deliberately target children. 

 

What sort of person defends people who deliberately target children ?

 

I get it. 

 

It doesn't fit your narrative so you don't want to believe the doctors, one of them who is Canadian, who are actually dealing with these children, who are victims of Israeli snipers. 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Not deliberately target children. 

 

What sort of person defends people who deliberately target children ?

 

I get it. 

 

It doesn't fit your narrative so you don't want to believe the doctors, one of them who is Canadian, who are actually dealing with these children, who are victims of Israeli snipers. 

IMHAO you’re creating a false equivalence. Of course no one wants children harmed. Personally old Slf doesn’t want to hear about anyone being harmed. But that’s not reality. Humans will have conflict and war.
Now explain exactly what Israel should do with Hamas considering Hamas wants Israel destroyed?  Should Israel turn the other cheek? What should they do? 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

IMHAO you’re creating a false equivalence. Of course no one wants children harmed. Personally old Slf doesn’t want to hear about anyone being harmed. But that’s not reality. Humans will have conflict and war.
Now explain exactly what Israel should do with Hamas considering Hamas wants Israel destroyed?  Should Israel turn the other cheek? What should they do? 

 

What has any of this have to do with those doctors stating that there have been a steady stream of kids, and elderly, with single shot bullet wounds to the head or the chest, obvious sniper shots ? 

 

So please stop with the false equivalence BS Alf.

 

Either you accept the word of those foreign volunteer doctors, one of them Canadian, who are on the ground dealing with these victims, or you don't. 

 

I believe the doctors. 

 

 

And then there is the West Bank Alf.

 

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/least-101-children-killed-west-bank-year

 

What excuse are you gonna try and make up for these killings ?

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

What has any of this have to do with those doctors stating that there have been a steady stream of kids, and elderly, with single shot bullet wounds to the head or the chest, obvious sniper shots ? 

 

So please stop with the false equivalence BS Alf.

 

Either you accept the word of those foreign volunteer doctors, one of them Canadian, who are on the ground dealing with these victims, or you don't. 

 

I believe the doctors. 

 

 

And then there is the West Bank Alf.

 

https://www.savethechildren.net/news/least-101-children-killed-west-bank-year

 

What excuse are you gonna try and make up for these killings ?

This thread is titled “Hamas attacking Israel”. So what should Israel do? 
What’s a good strategy for Israel where they can be safe from attack by Hamas? 
 

[Ilunga]

Just now, Alflives said:

This thread is titled “Hamas attacking Israel”. So what should Israel do? 
What’s a good strategy for Israel where they can be safe from attack by Hamas? 
 

 

The thread title is a bit out of date. 

 

Hamas attacked Isreal for a day or so.

For the last 8 months Isreal has been in the process of destroying Gaza in retaliation. 

 

You keep defending people who target and murder children.

 

That's on you.

 

Who do you believe has the ultimate stake in this Alf ?

 

Maybe the actual families of the victims who are still alive after the October 7 attack ?

 

 

Maybe we should listen to them, they want, and have always wanted a ceasefire so they can have their loved ones returned.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-01/israeli-hostage-supporters-urge-israel-hamas-to-accept-ceasefire/103923824

 

 

 

But you don't care about them do you.

All your posts are about Hamas.

[Canuck Surfer]

15 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Yes and we have all condemned Hamas, time and time again.

 

But what you are doing is whataboutism.

 

Hamas cannot win this battle militarily. Never could. Civilians are only dying because Hamas is conducting attacks. Human shields has always been a legitimate issue. For the record, quoting settler & youth deaths, as Hippy did is legitimate.

 

Bound in truth is also the rebuttal that Gaza's economy went further underground, pun intended, in 2006. Instead of using free elections, and international support to create a founding govt. They deepened the extent of the economy that run on black markets to fund their militia & corrupt leaders. Did not fund their own schools, economy, businesses. Work for their people. Instead they spent 20 years; starting two earlier wars, building tunnels, stealing infrastructure from donated & UN money all to culminate in Oct 7. Vowed to do it again. Have refused to give up hostages, to leverage holding power & the money of their leaders. Control of the territory that makes them money. This does not aid peace either; it is not a one sided blame game.

 

Calling for Israel to stop without a solution is whataboutism.  You are being played for your sympathies!

[Canuck Surfer]

Calling for Israel to stop without even remorse or unreserved offer to return hostages, regardless of sides, has to be recognized as a non starter. 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

Just now, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Hamas cannot win this battle militarily. Never could. Civilians are only dying because Hamas is conducting attacks. Human shields has always been a legitimate issue. For the record, quoting settler & youth deaths, as Hippy did is legitimate.

 

Bound in truth is also the rebuttal that Gaza's economy went further underground, pun intended, in 2006. Instead of using free elections, and international support to create a founding govt. They deepened the extent of the economy that run on black markets to fund their militia & corrupt leaders. Did not fund their own schools, economy, businesses. Work for their people. Instead they spent 20 years; starting two earlier wars, building tunnels, stealing infrastructure from donated & UN money all to culminate in Oct 7. Vowed to do it again. Have refused to give up hostages, to leverage holding power & the money of their leaders. Control of the territory that makes them money. This does not aid peace either; it is not a one sided blame game.

 

Calling for Israel to stop without a solution is whataboutism.  You are being played for your sympathies!

 

Where have I called on Isreal to stop fighting Hamas ?

 

I haven't.

 

In this particular conversation we have had, I have provided evidence that Israel is targeting children, and the elderly. 

 

Now you don't want to believe those volunteer doctors who are from different countries including Canada, that's on you.

 

I believe them.

 

I am calling on Israel not to target children or anyone else who is a non combatant. 

 

And not to do this 

 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/05/02/israel-military-artificial-intelligence-targeting-hamas-gaza-deaths-lavender/

 

" Investagive Journalism published in April by Israeli media outlet Local Call (and it's English language version +972magazine) shows that the Israeli military has established a mass assimilation program of unprecedented size blending algorithmic targeting with a high tolerance for bystander deaths and injuries "

 

We are meant to be living in time where we have a rules based world order.

Part of those rules are how we conduct ourselves in wars. 

 

The ends don't always justify the means. 

 

And the only thing that is " playing me " is my conscience, my moral standards.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

16 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Where have I called on Isreal to stop fighting Hamas ?

 

I haven't.

 

You have almost no content here regarding what Hamas must bring to the table. A perfunctory three word condemnation here & there? Then vomit blame on Israel.

 

Pressure needs to be brought to bear on both sides.

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

You have almost no content here regarding what Hamas must bring to the table. A perfunctory three word condemnation here & there? Then vomit blame on Israel.

 

Pressure needs to be brought to bear on both sides.

 

Excuse me ?

 

Vomit the blame on Israel ? 

 

How many times do I have to condemn Hamas, not just for their actions on October 7, but also all their terror actions before October 7 ?

 

I have lost track of the amount of times I have condemned/criticised, whatever adjective you would like me to use. 

 

We all know Hamas' are the " bad guys ".

 

Israel are meant to be the " good guys ".

 

Good guys don't target children, the elderly and non combatants. 

That's what bad guys like Hamas' do. 

 

I have stated many times what I want to happen. 

I want what the families of the hostages want.

A ceasefire, and all the hostages safely returned to their families back in Israel. 

 

I want a one state solution.

Where both Palestinians and Isrealis live in peace and Harmony. 

 

Sadly I know the majority of people don't think like I do.

If they did that would be a reality.

 

 

 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

Five Israeli Soldiers died in a tunnel today that was a smuggling tunnel from Egypt to Rafah. No wonder all the losers demanding Rafah not be secured by Israel were so adamant about it. I wonder now how many hostages have been removed from Gaza all-together and possibly are en route to or in Iran by now? Two other Egypt - Rafah tunnels have been found but obviously will be much slower to clear considering the booby traps in the earlier one this morning. I think most people here are already aware of the UNRWA school being used an Ops center by Hamas Militants being blown up by the IDF recently too, with roughly 40 Hamas members being the targets. I don't know how to classify their families who were also on scene there. I mean they are not combatants, but they aren't random innocent civilians either. I wonder what they are known as officially? ((after looking this up turns out civilians lose the cover of "non-combatants" if they are aiding and abetting combatants, like their husbands who are fighting members of Hamas, for instance))Chattel is what Hamas considers them.

Spoiler

(Chattel is a catch-all category of property associated with movable goods. At common law, chattel included all property other than real property. Examples include leases, animals, and money. In modern usage, chattel usually only refers to tangible movable personal property.)

I wish success and speed to the IDF as they finish the terrible but necessary work of eliminating Hamas. 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

24 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/05/02/israel-military-artificial-intelligence-targeting-hamas-gaza-deaths-lavender/

 

This by the way is an argument being published.  Not proven facts. Like most it has many truths to bear in it.  In the end an attempt to influence...

 

 

There is no doubt Israel has a collateral damage formula.  Their spin includes that they have tried to move civilians out of the way.  As much as possible, in contained terrain urban territory, anyway. It has taken 8 months to get 40,000 dead. If they truly wanted genocide; they could have carpet bombed Gaza over a few weeks. Casualties would # 1/2 or 3/4's of a million.  Much like there was 500,000 dead in Syrian civil war, 2/3rds civilian.

 

Regardless, we need meaningful concessions from both sides. To gain ceasefire.  I call on any with Palestinian allegiances, sympathies to also ask what Hamas concessions will be.

 

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I have lost track of the amount of times I have condemned/criticised, whatever adjective you would like me to use. 

 

We all know Hamas' are the " bad guys ".

 

We know what you call on Israel (not) to do. 

 

What are their (Hamas) concessions???  No one will invite them in to your proposed one state solution behaving as they are.  

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Ilunga]

35 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

This by the way is an argument being published.  Not proven facts. Like most it has many truths to bear in it.  In the end an attempt to influence...

 

 

There is no doubt Israel has a collateral damage formula.  Their spin includes that they have tried to move civilians out of the way.  As much as possible, in contained terrain urban territory, anyway. It has taken 8 months to get 40,000 dead. If they truly wanted genocide; they could have carpet bombed Gaza over a few weeks. Casualties would # 1/2 or 3/4's of a million.  Much like there was 500,000 dead in Syrian civil war, 2/3rds civilian.

 

Regardless, we need meaningful concessions from both sides. To gain ceasefire.  I call on any with Palestinian allegiances, sympathies to also ask what Hamas concessions will be.

 

 

We know what you call on Israel (not) to do. 

 

What are their (Hamas) concessions???  No one will invite them in to your proposed one state solution behaving as they are.  

 

 

 

Here is an article with a Isreali analyst explaining why it is not possible to wipe out Hamas'

 

https://www.vox.com/today-explained-podcast/352059/why-israel-cant-destroy-hamas

 

Note, one of the points he brings up is that Netanyahu wants Hamas' in power so he doesn't have to worry about making peace.

And he wants the war to go on so he can stay in power. 

 

 

And this article not only comes to the same conclusion, it points out that many of the Palestinians feel the way you, and we all do about their leaders.

They don't trust them.

 

https://www.securityincontext.com/posts/the-unending-challenge-why-hamas-cannot-be-completely-destroyed

 

So do you want to keep going down the same path, one where an entire enclave has been virtually destroyed, millions are on the brink of famine, hundreds of thousands of children are forced to see and endure things no child should be forced to see or endure ?

All in the hope of doing something that probably can't be done.

 

Or do you want the hostages returned safely to their families in Israel.

And see an end to the suffering, and destruction in Gaza.

 

That's what I want.

[Taxi]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Foreign volunteer doctors stating there is a steady stream of children coming in with single shot bullet wounds to the head or the chest.

 

I will believe the doctors who are on the ground there with the medical expertise to diagnose what has happened to these kids.

 

To say this is " friendly fire " is ridiculous. 

 

I have already pointed out what friendly fire is in this conflict.

 

Israel killing close to 20 percent of their own soldiers who have been killed in this conflict.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/5-soldiers-killed-7-hurt-in-friendly-fire-incident-in-northern-gazas-jabaliya/

 

Again that's the difference between us.

 

We both condemn the murdering scum/ Hamas.

 

However you apologise for the IDF who target and murder children. 

You actually don't condemn Hamas. You repeat their propaganda. When something awful happens your immediately blame Israel and assume it was intentional, while not pointing out the circumstances that Hamas created.

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Taxi said:

You actually don't condemn Hamas. You repeat their propaganda. When something awful happens your immediately blame Israel and assume it was intentional, while not pointing out the circumstances that Hamas created.

 

Why do you continually BS ?

 

What about the word condemn is it that you don't understand ?

 

Condemn 

 

" Express complete disapproval of "

" Censure "

 

I not only condemn their actions on October 7, and before then, I hope the actual people who perpetrated those acts on October 7 receive a punishment that is commensurate with their actions, a painful punishment. 

I have stated those actions were horrific, they were attrocities. 

 

Again, Hamas' are the bad guys, Israel are meant to be the ' good guys ".

Good guys don't target and kill children, elderly and non combatants. 

I didn't assume anything, I took the word of 8 doctors, one of them Canadian, who stated that there was a steady stream of children and elderly that had single shot gunshot wounds that were indicative of sniper wounds.

 

You don't have an answer for the evidence I provided that Israel has targeted and killed  children, so you make up some BS. 

 

If I am a Hamas' supporter then so is your Foreign Minister Melanie Joy, when talking about Gaza, she stated, 

" The level of Human suffering is catastrophic "

 

https://www.vox.com/today-explained-podcast/352059/why-israel-cant-destroy-hamas

 

And I guess that Israeli analyst is a Hamas' supporter because he states Hamas' cannot be wiped out. 

 

 

Just because I know Isreals response is disproportionate to the events of October 7 doesn't mean i don't want the people who committed those attrocities on October 7 to be held accountable, I do.

 

I just don't want millions of people suffering, paying the price for the actions of a minority. 

 

You might think that what happened on October 7 justifies the suffering that has happened in Gaza since then, I don't.

Especially what has, and is happening to the children.

 

I get you don't care one bit for what is happening to the kids in Gaza.

 

You are so full of what I just have finished spreading on some of my plants.

 

You can't come up with any valid arguments/evidence so you accuse me of supporting terrorists. 

 

 

Remember you lies, claiming that I denied the new don't have a long connection to the land of Israel/Palestine ?

I had literally posted the page before about the first Temple.

 

Then there was when you doubled down on your BS claims that Israel didn't help start and fund Hamas', even after I had provided evidence, twice, that they actually did. 

 

Over and over again you prove you are full of it.

 

Maybe you could help me out and talk around the base of some of my plants that need fertilizing.