Bob Long Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 2 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: Human rights groups, international bodies etc... ( not that they apparently get paid attention to) Do UKR and Israel deserve the same international respect as Syria? maybe they should be seen in the same light? So again, I just say...I understand the reduction of international support for the countries that may ignore the human rights parameters Nobody should be surprised at all the protests, nobody should be surprised at the diminishing respect and support for Israel. Imo most of the protests are for things other than the actual conflict. 2 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: I see a lot of ripping of the protesters etc in this thread but I dont see too much comendation of an act like the the use of WP for example. Your take is, everyone does something offside, look at UKR. It makes sense but I just would like to see a bit more equal, honest convo. I'm not saying I agree with it or think it's right, but I don't see who or what will stop it. 2 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: i think the thread title should be changed. I think we are 200+ days into this conflict. Both sides are 'attacking' not just the terrorists that started this recent mess. Until the Arab world accepts Israels right to exist this won't end, this current conflict is just another chapter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 7 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Until the Arab world accepts Israels right to exist this won't end I'll leave you to your beliefs behind the protests, and the idea that an international opinion and rights groups dont matter because they dont/wont enforce anything. We were specifically talking about use of 'illegal' munitions. To be clear, are you accepting Israel's use of WP in a cilvilian setting, even if you dont think it is 'right'? Not asking if it will stop or if you think they will change. I am asking if you, Jim-Bob, accept the use of this stuff? Do you condemn it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 18 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: I'll leave you to your beliefs behind the protests It's more than that but ok 18 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: , and the idea that an international opinion and rights groups dont matter because they dont/wont enforce anything. We were specifically talking about use of 'illegal' munitions. To be clear, are you accepting Israel's use of WP in a cilvilian setting, even if you dont think it is 'right'? Not asking if it will stop or if you think they will change. I am asking if you, Jim-Bob, accept the use of this stuff? Do you condemn it? Why do you feel the need to force me to agree to this? No I don't like it. No, there's nothing I can do about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 1 minute ago, Bob Long said: It's more than that but ok I'm sure there is. I just originally brought up the WP and wanted to talk about that. I am sure the use of WP etc, also motivates some to come out or support the protesters though. 1 minute ago, Bob Long said: Why do you feel the need to force me to agree to this? No I don't like it. No, there's nothing I can do about it. Because I respect you and really like talking to you. Thank you for saying you dont like it. I dont either. I would like them to stop being careless, or even defiant, to human rights standards in civilian areas. 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 19 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: I'm sure there is. I just originally brought up the WP and wanted to talk about that. I am sure the use of WP etc, also motivates some to come out or support the protesters though. Because I respect you and really like talking to you. Thank you for saying you dont like it. I dont either. I would like them to stop being careless, or even defiant, to human rights standards in civilian areas. Thanks I feel the same. One of the issues imo with discussions with Israel is it gets really emotional really fast and so many different sides are brought to it, it becomes impossible to see real, on the ground, solutions. It's why I don't like it when someone tries to trump a discussion with trauma stats. Unless someone can trump 6 million deaths, that path of discussion is a dead end imo. What can we actually do now, today, to stop kids in Gaza from dying? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 13 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Thanks I feel the same. One of the issues imo with discussions with Israel is it gets really emotional really fast and so many different sides are brought to it, it becomes impossible to see real, on the ground, solutions. It's why I don't like it when someone tries to trump a discussion with trauma stats. Unless someone can trump 6 million deaths, that path of discussion is a dead end imo. What can we actually do now, today, to stop kids in Gaza from dying? We can do nothing. Hamas can lay down their arms, return all hostages, and then the war ends. The whole “rules of war” reminds me of the old Star Trek episode where there were two planets fighting a virtual war. There was some kind of super computer that calculated deaths and people reported to be terminated. But no buildings or infrastructure was lost. They had been fighting this way for centuries. Kirk blew up the computer and forced both sides to live the reality of war. The whole concept of “rules of war” is an oxymoron. War is war. It’s awful. Innocent people will suffer. The innocent people of Gaza are suffering. Hamas knew this would happen. Hamas needs to be wiped out. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 7 minutes ago, Alflives said: We can do nothing. Hamas can lay down their arms, return all hostages, and then the war ends. The whole “rules of war” reminds me of the old Star Trek episode where there were two planets fighting a virtual war. There was some kind of super computer that calculated deaths and people reported to be terminated. But no buildings or infrastructure was lost. They had been fighting this way for centuries. Kirk blew up the computer and forced both sides to live the reality of war. The whole concept of “rules of war” is an oxymoron. War is war. It’s awful. Innocent people will suffer. The innocent people of Gaza are suffering. Hamas knew this would happen. Hamas needs to be wiped out. I think you are correct. It's why I don't put my feelings into the discussion as much as I could, the decision that needs to be made is clear. It could go a lot better if more Arab countries got involved in directly stopping Hamas too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 6 hours ago, Alflives said: We can do nothing. Hamas can lay down their arms, return all hostages, and then the war ends. The whole “rules of war” reminds me of the old Star Trek episode where there were two planets fighting a virtual war. There was some kind of super computer that calculated deaths and people reported to be terminated. But no buildings or infrastructure was lost. They had been fighting this way for centuries. Kirk blew up the computer and forced both sides to live the reality of war. The whole concept of “rules of war” is an oxymoron. War is war. It’s awful. Innocent people will suffer. The innocent people of Gaza are suffering. Hamas knew this would happen. Hamas needs to be wiped out. " Efficiency and progress is ours once more Now that we have the neutron bomb It's nice and clean and gets things done Away with excess enemy But no less value to property No sense in war but perfect sense at home The sun beams down on a brand new day No more welfare tax to pay Unsightly slums gone up in flash of light Jobless millions whisked away At last we have more room to play All systems go to kill the poor tonight " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 6 hours ago, Alflives said: The whole concept of “rules of war” is an oxymoron. War is war. We have evolved Alf. Jus ad bellum jus in bello And why these matter. https://www.icrc.org/en/document/rules-war-why-they-matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 23 hours ago, Alflives said: The US should have elected Hillary. I remember a photo posted of the moment the US got Bin Laden. It showed the war room at the Whitehouse. Lots of guys gathered around a tv set with live action of the assassination. And Hillary Clinton there in the front row amongst them. The men were all leaning forward and fixated like it was a football game. Hillary had her hand over her mouth and seemed to be aghast at what was happening. People, in those moments, don’t hide who they truly are. The men showed they were natural killers. The woman showed she was a natural nurturer. Maybe the world would be a lot safer if only women can be leaders? Womb-kanda for Eva. I couldn't resist. But maybe you have a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 Good news 4 of the hostages have been rescued. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-09/what-we-know-about-the-four-hostages-rescued-from-gaza/103955722 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 13 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: Where's Noah? Home... Again; dead I am sure occurred. How likely is this death rate of 210? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 8 hours ago, Alflives said: We can do nothing. Hamas can lay down their arms, return all hostages, and then the war ends. The whole “rules of war” reminds me of the old Star Trek episode where there were two planets fighting a virtual war. There was some kind of super computer that calculated deaths and people reported to be terminated. But no buildings or infrastructure was lost. They had been fighting this way for centuries. Kirk blew up the computer and forced both sides to live the reality of war. The whole concept of “rules of war” is an oxymoron. War is war. It’s awful. Innocent people will suffer. The innocent people of Gaza are suffering. Hamas knew this would happen. Hamas needs to be wiped out. It would be best, and probably more Arab countries would join, if Palestinians themselves started taking responsibility for removing Hamas. At worst standing up for themselves as women in Iran have done... Not a knock on manhood, praise of personal power, dignity, respect for oneself when expressed for freedom. Regardless by who. Its terrible that militant groups, forget Hamas, see Hezbollah who now have more military power than the Lebanese state. Yet represent roughly 30% of the population, a minority. As they have taken more and more power; more and more of the govt and economy has gone underground. Pun intended although not directly relevant. As has the personal wealth and freedom of most Lebanese the last thirty years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: It would be best, and probably more Arab countries would join, if Palestinians themselves started taking responsibility for removing Hamas. At worst standing up for themselves as women in Iran have done... Not a knock on manhood, praise of personal power, dignity, respect for oneself when expressed for freedom. Regardless by who. Its terrible that militant groups, forget Hamas, see Hezbollah who now have more military power than the Lebanese state. Yet represent roughly 30% of the population, a minority. As they have taken more and more power; more and more of the govt and economy has gone underground. Pun intended although not directly relevant. As has the personal wealth and freedom of most Lebanese the last thirty years. Some people in this thread keep saying that the Palestinians should remove Hamas'. Well I think it's a fair question to ask them, and in this case you, what would you do if you were a Palestinian ? Most Palestinian have families. Would you risk your life, and more importantly your families life attacking a group of well armed fanatics ? Do you believe weapons are readily available to your " average " Palestinian ? https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/82392/do-ordinary-gazans-have-firearms-much There isn't much to find on the subject of " average " Palestinians having access to guns. An answer in the article above " " Ordinary " Palestinians have a low firearms ownership by global standards and a majority of all guns in Gaza and the west bank combined ( finest level of detail available are government owned. The numbers below aren't broken down between the west bank and Gaza. " " The estimated rate of private gun ownership both (licit and illicit) per hundred people in Palestine is is 1.10. This private gun ownership is probably lower in Gaza. " I have already stated, that even when I was a young man and got into violent situations on a regular basis, I don't know if I would attack well armed fanatics that have a better chance of killing me, than I have of killing them. Would you be prepared to sacrifice your life in order to remove Hamas' if you were a Palestinian ? Like if you knew that if you would die, and that would help remove them, would you make that sacrifice ? Again, I am not sure if I would have back when I was young, and I certainly wouldn't now. Life is the most precious thing apart from my son I have. Here is the last example that I can find of what happened to Palestinians who protested against Hamas' in Gaza. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/21/hamas-violently-suppresses-gaza-economic-israeli-border-protests As I have stated, violent situations are scary places to be. Throw in heavily well armed fanatics, again, what would you do ? Edited June 9 by Ilunga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 Read this on CNN this morning. “Gaza hospital officials say 274 people died in the Israeli operation to rescue four hostages in central Gaza on Saturday. CNN cannot independently verify the figure. Hamas accused Israel of carrying out a massacre while eyewitnesses described “hell on earth” unfolding during the attack.” Sounds like Hamas was hiding (with their hostages) amongst non combatants. Does Hamas force the Gaza people to be their human shields? Do they bribe them with food or something? Or are those people protecting Hamas of their own free will? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 11 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said: It would be best, and probably more Arab countries would join, if Palestinians themselves started taking responsibility for removing Hamas. At worst standing up for themselves as women in Iran have done... Not a knock on manhood, praise of personal power, dignity, respect for oneself when expressed for freedom. Regardless by who. Its terrible that militant groups, forget Hamas, see Hezbollah who now have more military power than the Lebanese state. Yet represent roughly 30% of the population, a minority. As they have taken more and more power; more and more of the govt and economy has gone underground. Pun intended although not directly relevant. As has the personal wealth and freedom of most Lebanese the last thirty years. The world stood by and watched Lebanon be taken by Hezbollah just as they did with Hamas in Gaza. Yet many condemn Israel for having to deal with shortcomings created by their lack of action. Many pontificate on how it should be and not the reality faced by Israel. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarcore Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 (edited) On 6/7/2024 at 7:31 PM, Alflives said: The US should have elected Hillary. I remember a photo posted of the moment the US got Bin Laden. It showed the war room at the Whitehouse. Lots of guys gathered around a tv set with live action of the assassination. And Hillary Clinton there in the front row amongst them. The men were all leaning forward and fixated like it was a football game. Hillary had her hand over her mouth and seemed to be aghast at what was happening. People, in those moments, don’t hide who they truly are. The men showed they were natural killers. The woman showed she was a natural nurturer. Maybe the world would be a lot safer if only women can be leaders? That take absolutely fails when you see her reaction to Qaddafi's killing. She is a chicken hawk and an absolute piece on the level of anyone else who sat where she did. Edited June 9 by Gnarcore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxi Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 17 hours ago, Ilunga said: We have evolved Alf. Jus ad bellum jus in bello And why these matter. https://www.icrc.org/en/document/rules-war-why-they-matter And what do you do when the enemy not only doesn't follow any of the rules, but goes out of their way to exploit you following rules to their advantage. Hamas' main strategy in this war is to hide behind human shields. This only works, because they know that Israel is going to follow the rules. They wouldn't try this strategy if they were fighting Assad. Assad would spray the area with nerve gas and laugh about the results. Why are they pushing this strategy against Israel, if Israel doesn't follow the rules? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxi Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 15 hours ago, Ilunga said: Some people in this thread keep saying that the Palestinians should remove Hamas'. Well I think it's a fair question to ask them, and in this case you, what would you do if you were a Palestinian ? Most Palestinian have families. Would you risk your life, and more importantly your families life attacking a group of well armed fanatics ? Do you believe weapons are readily available to your " average " Palestinian ? https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/82392/do-ordinary-gazans-have-firearms-much There isn't much to find on the subject of " average " Palestinians having access to guns. An answer in the article above " " Ordinary " Palestinians have a low firearms ownership by global standards and a majority of all guns in Gaza and the west bank combined ( finest level of detail available are government owned. The numbers below aren't broken down between the west bank and Gaza. " " The estimated rate of private gun ownership both (licit and illicit) per hundred people in Palestine is is 1.10. This private gun ownership is probably lower in Gaza. " I have already stated, that even when I was a young man and got into violent situations on a regular basis, I don't know if I would attack well armed fanatics that have a better chance of killing me, than I have of killing them. Would you be prepared to sacrifice your life in order to remove Hamas' if you were a Palestinian ? Like if you knew that if you would die, and that would help remove them, would you make that sacrifice ? Again, I am not sure if I would have back when I was young, and I certainly wouldn't now. Life is the most precious thing apart from my son I have. Here is the last example that I can find of what happened to Palestinians who protested against Hamas' in Gaza. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/21/hamas-violently-suppresses-gaza-economic-israeli-border-protests As I have stated, violent situations are scary places to be. Throw in heavily well armed fanatics, again, what would you do ? The citizens of Gaza could vote Hamas out of existence if they wanted to. The Palestinian tried to hold multiple elections since Hamas was elected. Fatah always cancels them after opinion polls show Palestinians are likely to increase, not decrease, support for Hamas. Opinion polls from December of 2023, showed Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas and the Oct 7 attacks. This idea that the Palestinians don't take any responsibility for Hamas, as they can't do anything to stop them, simply is not truthful. Hamas is in power because the Palestinians continue to support them. Hamas openly states that their goal is to spread an Oct 7 like attack across the entirety of Israel. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 On 6/8/2024 at 11:11 AM, Bob Long said: Thanks I feel the same. One of the issues imo with discussions with Israel is it gets really emotional really fast and so many different sides are brought to it, it becomes impossible to see real, on the ground, solutions. It's why I don't like it when someone tries to trump a discussion with trauma stats. Unless someone can trump 6 million deaths, that path of discussion is a dead end imo. What can we actually do now, today, to stop kids in Gaza from dying? https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-first-gaza-rulers-hamas-open-weapons-exhibit-for-palestinian-public/ Calling out Hamas barbarians is a start. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxi Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 On 6/7/2024 at 7:31 PM, Alflives said: The US should have elected Hillary. I remember a photo posted of the moment the US got Bin Laden. It showed the war room at the Whitehouse. Lots of guys gathered around a tv set with live action of the assassination. And Hillary Clinton there in the front row amongst them. The men were all leaning forward and fixated like it was a football game. Hillary had her hand over her mouth and seemed to be aghast at what was happening. People, in those moments, don’t hide who they truly are. The men showed they were natural killers. The woman showed she was a natural nurturer. Maybe the world would be a lot safer if only women can be leaders? Hillary Clinton also said that she may have been just trying not to cough, and the photo captured a split second of a long meeting, and was likely meaningless: , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 On 6/8/2024 at 11:33 AM, Alflives said: We can do nothing. Hamas can lay down their arms, return all hostages, and then the war ends. The whole “rules of war” reminds me of the old Star Trek episode where there were two planets fighting a virtual war. There was some kind of super computer that calculated deaths and people reported to be terminated. But no buildings or infrastructure was lost. They had been fighting this way for centuries. Kirk blew up the computer and forced both sides to live the reality of war. The whole concept of “rules of war” is an oxymoron. War is war. It’s awful. Innocent people will suffer. The innocent people of Gaza are suffering. Hamas knew this would happen. Hamas needs to be wiped out. The most lucid comment, by you, that I’ve ever read. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 @RomanPer what is your take on Gantz? Do you think that this could lead to a new government? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 3 minutes ago, Bob Long said: @RomanPer what is your take on Gantz? Do you think that this could lead to a new government? Not speaking for Roman, but Netanyahoo, isn’t in danger of losing his governmental majority. Yeah, it’s a stick in his eye, but Netenyahoo will continue being in power, unless other Centrists follow Benny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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