Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

And what do you do when the enemy not only doesn't follow any of the rules, but goes out of their way to exploit you following rules to their advantage. Hamas' main strategy in this war is to hide behind human shields. This only works, because they know that Israel is going to follow the rules.

 

They wouldn't try this strategy if they were fighting Assad. Assad would spray the area with nerve gas and laugh about the results. Why are they pushing this strategy against Israel, if Israel doesn't follow the rules?

 

Israel does not follow the rules. 

 

This article gives a very brief description of international humanitarian law

 

https://www.redcross.org/humanityinwar.html 

 

By any standard, Israel has not abided by IHL in fighting the war in Gaza. 

 

They have also been trying to intimidate and threaten members of the body who is meant to enforce IHL, the ICC.

 

" Spying, hacking intimidation: Investigation exposes Israel's war on International court " 

 

https://thejewishindependent.com.au/spying-hacking-intimidation-israels-nine-year-war-on-the-icc

 

" Now an investigation by the guardian and +972 and local call has revealed how Israel ran an almost decade long secret war against the court. 

 

The investigation found the country deployed its intelligence agencies to survey, hack, pressure, smear and allegedly threaten senior ICC staff to derail the courts enquiries. Israel's intelligence captured the communications of numerous ICC officials, including Khan and his predecessor, Fatou Bensouda, intercepting phone calls, messages, emails and documents. "

 

More on the woman, Fatou Bensouda, that Isreal tried to threaten and intimate. 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/former-mossad-chief-threatened-icc-prosecutor-over-probe-into-israel-report-claims/

 

So anyone who believes that Israel has followed the rules is delusional.

 

[Sharpshooter]

3 minutes ago, bolt said:

Come on bud. Israeli Forces killed scores of innocent noncombatants, ie, regular people. 
 

I know I can argue out of the both sides of my mouth on this topic, and I have, but, this was a tragedy upon a tragedy, upon a good feel moment. 
 

 

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Sharpshooter said:

Not speaking for Roman, but Netanyahoo, isn’t in danger of losing his governmental majority. 
 

Yeah, it’s a stick in his eye, but Netenyahoo will continue being in power, unless other Centrists follow Benny. 

 

Change starts in small ways sometimes .

[Sharpshooter]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Change starts in small ways sometimes .

Not in the Middle East. Historically, it’s been big ways, that started any change. 
 

And, the big changes always involves the death of scores of innocent people, again for Eons. 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said:

Not in the Middle East. Historically, it’s been big ways, that started any change. 
 

And, the big changes always involves the death of scores of innocent people, again for Eons. 

 

I just mean in Israel, the lone democracy.

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

The citizens of Gaza could vote Hamas out of existence if they wanted to. The Palestinian tried to hold multiple elections since Hamas was elected. Fatah always cancels them after opinion polls show Palestinians are likely to increase, not decrease, support for Hamas. Opinion polls from December of 2023, showed Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas and the Oct 7 attacks.

 

This idea that the Palestinians don't take any responsibility for Hamas, as they can't do anything to stop them, simply is not truthful. Hamas is in power because the Palestinians continue to support them. Hamas openly states that their goal is to spread an Oct 7 like attack across the entirety of Israel. 

 

So how are you meant to vote out Hamas when they haven't held elections since they were elected in 2006 ? 

 

Here is a factual timeline of events in relation to " politics " elections, Fatah - Hamas since 2006.

 

https://www.usip.org/palestinian-politics-timeline-2006-election

 

The Palestinians have protested a few times since Hamas gained power.

It has been for economic reasons. 

 

But bottom line they still haven't had elections.

And what viable alternative do they have. 

As we all know, Hamas is a terrorist organisation that hasn't/won't let its grip on power go.

 

And as I have pointed out before, support for any leaders in any country in times of war increase, especially if that country is being attacked.

 

I will ask you the same question I have asked others who challenge the Palestinians to get rid of Hamas'.

 

If you were a Palestinian would you fight a well armed terrorist organisation ?

 

Would you risk your life and the lives of your of family ?

 

Would you sacrifice your life if it meant that Hamas' was eradicated ? 

 

 

You haven't dealt with the point that I brought up.

 

Why do so many Isrealis themselves state that Isreal practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people ?

 

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

13 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I just mean in Israel, the lone democracy.

Israel is looking less and less like a Western Democracy with Yahoo in power…or is Israel looking more and more like a Western Democracy? 
 

That’s an indictment and an indication of Western ‘Democracy’, and their people that vote for them. 

[Bob Long]

7 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Israel is looking less and less like a Western Democracy with Yahoo in power…or is Israel looking more and more like a Western Democracy? 
 

That’s an indictment and an indication of Western ‘Democracy’, and their people that vote for them. 

 

I'd take that potential over hoping someone would let my daughter drive, some day.

[Sharpshooter]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

I'd take that potential over hoping someone would let my daughter drive, some day.

Into the Red Sea, assuming. 

[testycal]

Maybe a discussion here that the starting point for any real discussion with Hamas is changing the Charter so that it does not call for destruction of the State of Israel.

 

Read the Charter..may change one's view of the events.  It "honourably" distinguishes between Jews practicing Judiasm and Zionists occupying "their" land.  In short...we can live with the Jews as long as they are not living in Israel and are living somewhere else.

 

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full

[Ilunga]

15 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Israel is looking less and less like a Western Democracy with Yahoo in power…or is Israel looking more and more like a Western Democracy? 
 

That’s an indictment and an indication of Western ‘Democracy’, and their people that vote for them. 

 

The fundamental part of a democracy is at least one check on power, in the political system. 

 

In most western democracies that is a senate.

Which is the check/ 

upper chamber, protection we have on the people we elect to represent us in the lower house.

 

Any legislation that goes through our house of reps, then has to pass through the senate.

 

Israel only has the Knesset.

It does not have a senate. 

 

 

And that's a great point about supposed western democracies.

 

When we don't get to choose most of the candidates we elect.

The political parties do that.

 

We have political lobbying and donations.

Here in Aus many of the political lobbyists, used to be staffers of the politicians the lobby groups are giving money to.

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

6 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

The fundamental part of a democracy is at least one check on power, in the political system. 

 

In most western democracies that is a senate.

Which is the check/ 

upper chamber, protection we have on the people we elect to represent us in the lower house.

 

Any legislation that goes through our house of reps, then has to pass through the senate.

 

Israel only has the Knesset.

It does not have a senate. 

 

 

And that's a great point about supposed western democracies.

 

When we don't get to choose most of the candidates we elect.

The political parties do that.

 

We have political lobbying and donations.

Here in Aus many of the political lobbyists, used to be staffers of the politicians the lobby groups are giving money to.

 

 

Correction…the fundamental part of Democracy is an informed electorate. 
 

Whether the electorate is willing or unwilling to be informed and act on the information available, is another issue. 
 

 

[Ilunga]

Just now, Sharpshooter said:

Correction…the fundamental part of Democracy is an informed electorate. 
 

Whether the electorate is willing or unwilling to be informed and act on the information available, is another issue. 
 

 

 

" It's so easy to defend the status quo

When everyone's so cool and cynical 

But when you see the ends don't justify the means

It's just that 180 degrees 

 

The great thing about bein' a human 

Is our ability to reason

But reason it don't work when no one cares

Two parts apathy, one part despair " 

 

Mike B.

 

Doesn't matter how informed you are, when the only choice is between the lesser of 2 evils. 

 

[Sharpshooter]

9 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

" It's so easy to defend the status quo

When everyone's so cool and cynical 

But when you see the ends don't justify the means

It's just that 180 degrees 

 

The great thing about bein' a human 

Is our ability to reason

But reason it don't work when no one cares

Two parts apathy, one part despair " 

 

Mike B.

 

Doesn't matter how informed you are, when the only choice is between the lesser of 2 evils. 

 

 

We’re not talking too each other but rather speaking through each other. 
 

Seems like a lot of that is happening on the geopolitical level. 

 

Trust me, I get what you’re throwing down. Trust that I’m just as if not more intelligent in many facets of our discourse, without references/quotes. 
 

And there’s only one ‘evil’, not two. 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said:

We’re not talking too each other but rather speaking through each other. 
 

Seems like a lot of that is happening on the geopolitical level. 

 

Trust me, I get what you’re throwing down. Trust that I’m just as if not more intelligent in many facets of our discourse, without references/quotes. 
 

And there’s only one ‘evil’, not two. 

 

" Evil " is subjective. 

 

I have spent a lot of time educating myself on the subjects of normative ethics, and meta ethics.

 

I should have stated, 

" The somewhat less unpleasant of two poor choices ".

 

I am not, and have never claimed to be intelligent. 

 

I have done some really stupid shit at times in my life. 

 

What I do claim, is that I have, and always will try to improve myself, be a better person until the day I die.

 

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

" Evil " is subjective. 

 

I have spent a lot of time educating myself on the subjects of normative ethics, and meta ethics.

 

I should have stated, 

" The somewhat less unpleasant of two poor choices ".

 

I am not, and have never claimed to be intelligent. 

 

I have done some really stupid shit at times in my life. 

 

What I do claim, is that I have, and always will try to improve myself, be a better person until the day I die.

 

 

 

Incorrect. 
 

At times. ‘Evil’ is Objective, once defined by the consensus. 
 

 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said:

Incorrect. 
 

At times. ‘Evil’ is Objective, once defined by the consensus. 
 

 

 

 

Good/Bad/evil are subjective.

 

They are subjectively decided upon by the majority in any given group of people/society.

 

Good/evil is also an expression of subjective personal opinion. 

It's qualitative and not quantifiable. 

 

One thing that by the far the majority of people on this planet agree on, is that to harm a child is unacceptable. 

 

Yet in this discussion, most of the people involved have found a way to rationalise the fact that tens of thousands of children have been killed, injured and are missing in Gaza.

 

And over 600,000 more are being forced to see and endure things that no child should be forced to see and endure.

 

Things that will scar them both emotionally and physically for the rest of their lives. 

 

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

The propaganda is real.  Don't believe everything you see on the tv or on social media...

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

Israeli hostages kept captive at the home of Gaza doctor and his journalist son, EuroMedHR confirms We continue to see both journalists and doctors actively participating in terrorism in Gaza, this time in hostage keeping and perhaps even taking. The chairman of EuroMedHR, Ramy Abdu, confirms that hostages were kept in private homes and that those holding them hostage were Dr. Ahmed Al-Jamal and his son, journalist Abdallah Al-Jamal, for the Palestine Chronicle. 

 

In an article written by @NGOmonitor Legal Advisor @AnneHerzberg14, she speaks of Gaza's hospitals being utilized to conceal hostages during a recent conflict. Which raises critical questions about who was aware of these activities, including hospital staff, UN agencies, and NGOs, and emphasizes the urgent need for thorough investigation and accountability. The victims and their families rightfully demand justice in the face of such heinous acts. As the conflict in Gaza persists and accounts from freed hostages shed light on their ordeal, evidence surfaces of Hamas exploiting civilian infrastructure, notably hospitals, to detain more than 240 individuals from Israel during a specific onslaught. The article highlights how Hamas' actions not only endangered civilians seeking medical aid but also compromised the safety of hospital workers, irrespective of their affiliations. The pervasive use of hospitals by Hamas for combat, weapon storage, and the concealment of hostages, not only among civilian populations but also kept by doctors, underscores a grave violation of international law and humanitarian principles, demanding robust legal scrutiny and consequences.

[Elias Pettersson]

I don't believe I have ever seen people protesting outside of a police station before.  I guess it will be much easier for the police to arrest these people and throw them in jail.  Only a few short steps walk to their jail cell...

 

 

[Ilunga]

Just now, Elias Pettersson said:

The propaganda is real.  Don't believe everything you see on the tv or on social media...

 

 

 

 

You believe that Jesus was/is a real person... Yes ?

 

Do you believe that if he was a member of this board he would be posting about tests/questionnaires in schools....or what is happening to the children in Gaza ?

 

Matthew 18:6

" But whoso offends one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. "

 

That's stating, you fuck with kids you are fucked.

 

Now, what is hurting a kid more, asking them a question, or killing them, injuring them.

 

Forcing them to see and endure things that no child should see or endure.

 

Bringing them to the brink of starvation. 

 

 

And I can tell you this.

 

I don't trust any source on twitter.

 

The sources I use, I use two fact checking organisations.

Media Bias 

And AllSides media bias. 

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

5 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

You believe that Jesus was/is a real person... Yes ?

 

Do you believe that if he was a member of this board he would be posting about tests/questionnaires in schools....or what is happening to the children in Gaza ?

 

Matthew 18:6

" But whoso offends one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. "

 

That's stating, you fuck with kids you are fucked.

 

Now, what is hurting a kid more, asking them a question, or killing them, injuring them.

 

Forcing them to see and endure things that no child should see or endure.

 

Bringing them to the brink of starvation. 

 

 

And I can tell you this.

 

I don't trust any source on twitter.

 

The sources I use, I use two fact checking organisations.

Media Bias 

And AllSides media bias. 

 

 

 

Jesus would have never allowed such an evil terrorist organization like Hamas to ever control a place like Gaza, whereby they intentionally put their own people in danger, use them as human shields and quite frankly don't give a fuck about the kids that live there.  Do you actually think Hamas cares about the children in Gaza?  If they did, they would have already surrendered and wouldn't be putting them in danger on a daily basis, as well as using a hospital to fake injuries on their own people for propaganda purposes...

[Sharpshooter]

37 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

Good/Bad/evil are subjective.

 

They are subjectively decided upon by the majority in any given group of people/society.

 

Good/evil is also an expression of subjective personal opinion. 

It's qualitative and not quantifiable. 

 

One thing that by the far the majority of people on this planet agree on, is that to harm a child is unacceptable. 

 

Yet in this discussion, most of the people involved have found a way to rationalise the fact that tens of thousands of children have been killed, injured and are missing in Gaza.

 

And over 600,000 more are being forced to see and endure things that no child should be forced to see and endure.

 

Things that will scar them both emotionally and physically for the rest of their lives. 

 

 

 

Again, the definition of ‘evil’ as a placeholder term is established from time to time or society to society, that definition is established. 
 

Evil can be objective, while being subjective. 
 

If you want to continue arguing about this, let’s move this discussion into PMs, without detracting from the topic at hand. 

[Ilunga]

Just now, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Jesus would have never allowed such an evil terrorist organization like Hamas to ever control a place like Gaza, whereby they intentionally put their own people in danger, use them as human shields and quite frankly don't give a fuck about the kids that live there.  Do you actually think Hamas cares about the children in Gaza?  If they did, they would have already surrendered and wouldn't be putting them in danger on a daily basis, as well as using a hospital to fake injuries on their own people for propaganda purposes...

 

You haven't answered my question. 

 

If you believe the stories/allegories about Jesus, which you do, he was a teacher. 

He may or may not intervene in this situation if he is actually real and was here today. 

That my opinion.

 

I am asking you for your opinion on what his talking points would be if he was a member of this forum.

 

Talking about one class being asked a few questions ?

 

Or talking about tens of thousands of children killed, injured and missing.

 

And hundreds of thousands of children, psychology, emotionally and in some cases physically damaged for life ?

 

 

[Ilunga]

6 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Again, the definition of ‘evil’ as a placeholder term is established from time to time or society to society, that definition is established. 
 

Evil can be objective, while being subjective. 
 

If you want to continue arguing about this, let’s move this discussion into PMs, without detracting from the topic at hand. 

 

I would love to. 

 

And while I will do this, this subject is at the heart of both this conflict, and this discussion. 

 

As I have stated, many of the regular contributors to this discussion have rationalised, what cannot be rationalised by anyone with an ounce of humanity.

 

Harming children.