Hamas attacking Israel

[RomanPer]

10 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Just wondering you think this could end up being the end of Netanyahus run.

 

I certainly hope so.

[Inkidu]

9 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

in my opinion a rational (objective) person: 

 

- despises hamas for being murderous cowards over and over again, siphoning billions of dollars in aid money and using it to deliberately target innocent israeli civilians

- despises the way Israel has treated Palestinians for the past 75 years, including but not limited to stealing their land, as well as bombing and starving them

 

a person who only feels one is probably just being tribal about it all

 

 

I think you're a bit too deep in the weeds. The sum of those two options doesn't come close to describing the whole. 

 

I noticed years ago how so many in this part of the world cultivated an opinion on the middle east which they shared, it seemed to me, to show how worldly wise they were. I dismissed it as another tool in pursuit of social dominance. 

The obsession has grown to be more emotion-driven but the goal is still self-serving -- to connect with others for the sake of power. 

 

It sounds like it could be tribal, but what does tribalism really mean? It usually refers to a smaller unit of social organization resisting being absorbed by a larger unit. It's happened throughout our slow evolution from families through tribes and confederation to nations where each step was slowed by those fearing loss of identity. Yet it is necessary that they do if there is to be peace. 

 

Ultimately there can only be two kinds of sovereignty: that of the individual, and that of the world as a whole. Everything else in between is transient. Right now  nationalism is the new tribalism, whether religious or political, and it's having a fit about being made obsolete by globalized. Some day, not soon, we will overcome this.

 

I fear in the meantime we will lose the best of what we have, and I am unabashed in saying the Jewish people represent that. It brings me to tears to think of the precious strains of genius that we've lost already, and that includes moral genius. 

 

I should say I'm sorry I don't really have the time to read more than recent posts in any topic, and I can't really get into much back and forth. But I do enjoy all posts in my own way, so here's a big LIKE to all. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HarbularyBattery]

2 hours ago, Inkidu said:

I think you're a bit too deep in the weeds. The sum of those two options doesn't come close to describing the whole. 

 

I noticed years ago how so many in this part of the world cultivated an opinion on the middle east which they shared, it seemed to me, to show how worldly wise they were. I dismissed it as another tool in pursuit of social dominance. 

The obsession has grown to be more emotion-driven but the goal is still self-serving -- to connect with others for the sake of power. 

 

It sounds like it could be tribal, but what does tribalism really mean? It usually refers to a smaller unit of social organization resisting being absorbed by a larger unit. It's happened throughout our slow evolution from families through tribes and confederation to nations where each step was slowed by those fearing loss of identity. Yet it is necessary that they do if there is to be peace. 

 

Ultimately there can only be two kinds of sovereignty: that of the individual, and that of the world as a whole. Everything else in between is transient. Right now  nationalism is the new tribalism, whether religious or political, and it's having a fit about being made obsolete by globalized. Some day, not soon, we will overcome this.

 

I fear in the meantime we will lose the best of what we have, and I am unabashed in saying the Jewish people represent that. It brings me to tears to think of the precious strains of genius that we've lost already, and that includes moral genius. 

 

I should say I'm sorry I don't really have the time to read more than recent posts in any topic, and I can't really get into much back and forth. But I do enjoy all posts in my own way, so here's a big LIKE to all. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I re-read this several times but I'm not really sure I understand what you mean, so I'll just give it a like and move on

[Taxi]

5 hours ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

I assume youre including the caveat that they've spent 75 years being thrown out of their homes, attacked, bombed, occupied, and blockaded, so their belief that peaceful resistance gets them nowhere can be understood

If you start and lose wars, you often usually end up losing land too.

Edited June 11 by Taxi

[Ilunga]

14 hours ago, bolt said:

The barbarians of Hamas must stop hiding hostages in civilian zones.  Release them.

 

The barbarians of Hamas must stop firing rockets intentionally from schools.

 

The barbarians of Hamas must stop throwing LGBQ people off buildings.

 

The barbarians of Hamas must stop blowing themselves including children up.

 

The barbarians of Hamas must stop indoctrinating their school system with terrorism glorification 

 

I totally agree with all of your points.

Except a couple of your statements are incorrect.

 

 

Hamas throwing LGBTQ people of roofs ?

 

This will be the third time I have debunked that claim. 

 

" Video does not show Hamas' throwing people of a roof "

 

https://factcheck.afp.com/doc.afp.com.347B339

 

Fact Check: Video of people thrown from a roof, shows punishment by IS not Hamas. "

 

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-people-thrown-roof-shows-punishment-by-is-not-hamas-2023-12-14/ 

 

 

And your claim that Hamas' blows themselves and children up ?

 

This article from the, 

National consortium study for the terrorism and responses to Terrorism.

A department of Homeland emeritus security centre of excellence led the the University of Maryland.

 

 

https://www.start.umd.edu/publication/hamas-and-suicide-terrorism-multi-causal-and-multi-level-approaches

 

States 

 

" This book analyses the root causes suicide terrorism at both the elite and rank and file levels of the Hamas and also explains why this tactic has disappeared in the post 2006 period "

 

So Hamas hasn't " blown themselves up for close to 20 years. 

 

I believe you can safely state, that they have indeed stopped blowing themselves and children up.

 

And they should stop firing rockets from anywhere.

Not just schools.

[Ilunga]

6 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

The reason there haven't been elections since 2006, is that every voting poll keeps showing large gains for Hamas, and the Palestinian Authority - who is run by Fatah - cancels the elections every time. Even Fatah was set to be ousted by a breakaway group of Fatah that wanted immediate armed resistance. Polls indicate that if an election were to be held, Marwan Barghouti, who calls for an immediate 3rd Intifada, would likely take over for Fatah. The options would be then between a religious military campaign, in Hamas, or a secular one, with Barghouti. There's never been any indication that the Palestinian people are prepared to vote for anything but war.

 

The reason there hasn't been any elections is that Hamas has refused to hold them. 

 

I am not stating there is no support for Hamas among the Palestinians, there is.

Rightly or wrongly, which is the case, that's what human beings do. 

Support the people who oppose the people that are oppressing them. 

 

I have never argued against the fact that Hamas' needs to be removed.

For both their crimes against the Isreali people, and the fact that they don't care about the Palestinian people. 

 

It's the means I am arguing against. 

 

I have, and am stating that the means the Isrealis have used since October 7 don't justify the ends.

It is not a proportionate response. 

 

And as for your statement that Palestinian will vote for war, couldn't what they want be interpreted as wanting to vote for freedom ?

 

Are the Isrealis that vote for the religious nutjobs in the Knesset who want all of Gaza and the occupied territories to be a part of Israel, voting for war ?  

 

 

[Ilunga]

46 minutes ago, Taxi said:

If you start and lose wars, you often usually end up losing land too.

 

This is what the far right nutjobs in Israel want.

More Palestinian land.

 

Me, I want what the Israeli defence Minister Yoav Gallant wants.

 

That Israel comes up with a plan for a replacement of Hamas rule in Gaza.

 

https://www.npr.org/2024/05/16/1251564884/israel-gaza-day-after-gallant-netanyahu

 

Something he has been calling for since October.

 

" Gallant appeared to refute Netanyahu's claims that, saying no efforts were being made to establish an alternative to Hamas in Gaza. He called on Netanyahu to declare that Israel would not establish civil or military rule in Gaza for the long term. 

 

The 'day after Hamas' will only be achieved by Palestinian entities taking control of Gaza, accompanied by international actors, establishing a governing alternative to Hamas' rule, Gallant said in his live speech. Unfortunately the plan was not brought up for discussion, and worse an alternative discussion was not raised in its place. "

 

I am asking you, what do you want to happen when this catastrophic conflict finally comes to an end ?

 

 

This guy, Dennis Ross, a veteran negotiator, who for more than thirty years has been trying to make peace between Arabs and Isrealis, has a plan.

 

 

" The Road to Peace in Gaza.

A Veteran Negotiator's plan " 

 

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/road-peace-gaza-veteran-negotiators-plan

.

[Taxi]

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

This is what the far right nutjobs in Israel want.

More Palestinian land.

 

Me, I want what the Israeli defence Minister Yoav Gallant wants.

 

That Israel comes up with a plan for a replacement of Hamas rule in Gaza.

 

https://www.npr.org/2024/05/16/1251564884/israel-gaza-day-after-gallant-netanyahu

 

Something he has been calling for since October.

 

" Gallant appeared to refute Netanyahu's claims that, saying no efforts were being made to establish an alternative to Hamas in Gaza. He called on Netanyahu to declare that Israel would not establish civil or military rule in Gaza for the long term. 

 

The 'day after Hamas' will only be achieved by Palestinian entities taking control of Gaza, accompanied by international actors, establishing a governing alternative to Hamas' rule, Gallant said in his live speech. Unfortunately the plan was not brought up for discussion, and worse an alternative discussion was not raised in its place. "

 

I am asking you, what do you want to happen when this catastrophic conflict finally comes to an end ?

 

 

This guy, Dennis Ross, a veteran negotiator, who for more than thirty years has been trying to make peace between Arabs and Isrealis, has a plan.

 

 

" The Road to Peace in Gaza.

A Veteran Negotiator's plan " 

 

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/road-peace-gaza-veteran-negotiators-plan

.

Israel has accepted the UN backed ceasefire plan. I was talking about 1948. Israel wants nothing to do with Gaza and it's precious land.

[HarbularyBattery]

11 hours ago, Taxi said:

If you start and lose wars, you often usually end up losing land too.

it takes an embarassing level of bias and a gross misreading of history to characterize 1948 that way, id recommend wikipedia as a good starting point

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war

[Warhippy]

2 hours ago, Taxi said:

Israel has accepted the UN backed ceasefire plan. I was talking about 1948. Israel wants nothing to do with Gaza and it's precious land.

So, then you are of the mind that Israel needs to pull back all of its settlements and cede the land back to the Palestinians?

[Elias Pettersson]

52 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

it takes an embarassing level of bias and a gross misreading of history to characterize 1948 that way, id recommend wikipedia as a good starting point

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war

 

I think you are the one who should be embarrassed by using Wikipedia as your source...

 

Milestones in the History of U.S. Foreign Relations - Office of the Historian (state.gov)

 

On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly adopted Resolution 181 (also known as the Partition Resolution) that would divide Great Britain’s former Palestinian mandate into Jewish and Arab states in May 1948. Under the resolution, the area of religious significance surrounding Jerusalem would remain under international control administered by the United Nations. The Palestinian Arabs refused to recognize this arrangement, which they regarded as favorable to the Jews and unfair to the Arab population that would remain in Jewish territory under the partition. The United States sought a middle way by supporting the United Nations resolution, but also encouraging negotiations between Arabs and Jews in the Middle East.

 

The United Nations resolution sparked conflict between Jewish and Arab groups within Palestine. Fighting began with attacks by irregular bands of Palestinian Arabs attached to local units of the Arab Liberation Army composed of volunteers from Palestine and neighboring Arab countries. These groups launched their attacks against Jewish cities, settlements, and armed forces. The Jewish forces were composed of the Haganah, the underground militia of the Jewish community in Palestine, and two small irregular groups, the Irgun, and LEHI. The goal of the Arabs was initially to block the Partition Resolution and to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state. The Jews, on the other hand, hoped to gain control over the territory allotted to them under the Partition Plan.

 

After Israel declared its independence on May 14, 1948, the fighting intensified with other Arab forces joining the Palestinian Arabs in attacking territory in the former Palestinian mandate. On the eve of May 14, the Arabs launched an air attack on Tel Aviv, which the Israelis resisted. This action was followed by the invasion of the former Palestinian mandate by Arab armies from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Egypt. Saudi Arabia sent a formation that fought under the Egyptian command. British trained forces from Transjordan eventually intervened in the conflict, but only in areas that had been designated as part of the Arab state under the United Nations Partition Plan and the corpus separatum of Jerusalem. After tense early fighting, Israeli forces, now under joint command, were able to gain the offensive.

 

Though the United Nations brokered two cease-fires during the conflict, fighting continued into 1949. Israel and the Arab states did not reach any formal armistice agreements until February. Under separate agreements between Israel and the neighboring states of Egypt, Lebanon, Transjordan, and Syria, these bordering nations agreed to formal armistice lines. Israel gained some territory formerly granted to Palestinian Arabs under the United Nations resolution in 1947. Egypt and Jordan retained control over the Gaza Strip and the West Bank respectively. These armistice lines held until 1967. The United States did not become directly involved with the armistice negotiations, but hoped that instability in the Middle East would not interfere with the international balance of power between the Soviet Union and the United States.

[Elias Pettersson]

https://apnews.com/article/un-us-security-council-israel-hamas-ceasefire-834734f606a5245cc46a2487a70ae3fa#:~:text=UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The U.N. Security Council,that the United States says Israel has accepted.

 

UN Security Council adopts a cease-fire resolution aimed at ending Israel-Hamas war in Gaza

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The U.N. Security Council on Monday overwhelmingly approved its first resolution endorsing a cease-fire plan aimed at ending the eight-month war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.

 

The U.S.-sponsored resolution welcomes a cease-fire proposal announced by President Joe Biden that the United States says Israel has accepted. It calls on the militant Palestinian group Hamas to accept the three-phase plan.

 

The resolution — which was approved with 14 of the 15 Security Council members voting in favor and Russia abstaining — calls on Israel and Hamas “to fully implement its terms without delay and without condition.”

 

Whether Israel and Hamas agree to go forward with the plan remains in question, but the resolution’s strong support in the U.N.’s most powerful body puts added pressure on both parties to approve the proposal.

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken was in Israel on Monday, where he urged Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to accept the plan for postwar Gaza as he pushed for more international pressure on Hamas to agree to the cease-fire proposal. Netanyahu has been skeptical of the deal, saying that Israel is still committed to destroying Hamas.

Hamas said it welcomed the adoption of the resolution and was ready to work with mediators in indirect negotiations with Israel to implement it. The statement was among the strongest from Hamas to date, but it stressed the group would continue its struggle against Israeli occupation and work on setting up a “fully sovereign” Palestinian state.

 

“Efforts are continuing to study and clarify some matters to ensure implementation by the Israeli side,” Hamas spokesperson Jihad Taha said Tuesday. He said Israel was “stalling and procrastinating and creating obstacles in order to continue the aggression.”

 

A senior Israeli diplomat did not directly mention the resolution, telling the council Israel’s position is unwavering: “We will continue until all of the hostages are returned and until Hamas’ military and governing capabilities are dismantled.”

“This also means that Israel will not engage in meaningless and endless negotiations, which can be exploited by Hamas as a means to stall for time,” Minister Counsellor Reut Shapir Ben Naftaly said.

 

U.S. Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield reiterated, however, that Israel has accepted the cease-fire deal, which is supported by countries around the world.

 

The resolution’s adoption, she said, “sent a clear message to Hamas to accept the cease-fire deal on the table.”

 

“The fighting could stop today, if Hamas would do the same,” Thomas-Greenfield told the council. “I repeat, this fighting could stop today.”

 

U.S. deputy ambassador Robert Wood told reporters earlier on Monday that the United States sees the deal as “the best, most realistic opportunity to bring at least a temporary halt to this war.”

 

Earlier Monday, Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad leaders met in Qatar to discuss the proposed cease-fire deal and said later that any deal must lead to a permanent cease-fire, a full Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, reconstruction and “a serious exchange deal” between hostages in Gaza and Palestinians held in Israeli jails.

Russia’s U.N. Ambassador Vassily Nebenzia said Moscow abstained because details of the three-phase plan haven’t been disclosed and “we have a whole host of questions.”

 

“Hamas is called upon to accept this so-called deal, but still there is no clear clarity regarding official agreement from Israel,” Nebenzia said. ”Given the many statements from Israel on the extension of the war until Hamas is completely defeated ... what specifically has Israel agreed to?”

 

Algeria’s U.N. Ambassador Amar Bendjama, the Arab representative on the council, said that while the text isn’t perfect, “it offers a glimmer of hope to the Palestinians, as the alternative is (the) continuing killing and suffering of the Palestinian people.”

 

“We voted for this text to give diplomacy a chance to reach an agreement that will end the aggression against the Palestinian people that has lasted far too long,” Bendjama said.

 

Monday’s resolution underscores “the importance of the ongoing diplomatic efforts by Egypt, Qatar and the United States aimed at reaching a comprehensive cease-fire deal, consisting of three phases” and says the three countries are ready “to work to ensure negotiations keep going until all the agreements are reached.”

Biden’s May 31 announcement of the new proposal said it would begin with an initial six-week cease-fire and the release of hostages in exchange for Palestinian prisoners, the withdrawal of Israeli forces from populated areas in Gaza and the return of Palestinian civilians to all areas in the territory.

 

Phase one also requires the safe distribution of humanitarian assistance “at scale throughout the Gaza Strip,” which Biden said would lead to 600 trucks with aid entering Gaza every day.

 

In phase two, the resolution says that with the agreement of Israel and Hamas, “a permanent end to hostilities, in exchange for the release of all other hostages still in Gaza, and a full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza” will take place.

 

Phase three would launch “a major multi-year reconstruction plan for Gaza and the return of the remains of any deceased hostages still in Gaza to their families.”

The resolution reiterates the Security Council’s “unwavering commitment to achieving the vision of a negotiated two-state solution where two democratic states, Israel and Palestine, live side by side in peace within secure and recognized borders.”

 

It also stresses “the importance of unifying the Gaza Strip with the West Bank under the Palestinian Authority,” something Netanyahu’s right-wing government has not agreed to.

___
Associated Press writer Bassem Mroue contributed to this report from Beirut.

___

[HarbularyBattery]

7 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I think you are the one who should be embarrassed by using Wikipedia as your source...

 

Milestones in the History of U.S. Foreign Relations - Office of the Historian (state.gov)

 

On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly adopted Resolution 181 (also known as the Partition Resolution) that would divide Great Britain’s former Palestinian mandate into Jewish and Arab states in May 1948. Under the resolution, the area of religious significance surrounding Jerusalem would remain under international control administered by the United Nations. The Palestinian Arabs refused to recognize this arrangement, which they regarded as favorable to the Jews and unfair to the Arab population that would remain in Jewish territory under the partition. The United States sought a middle way by supporting the United Nations resolution, but also encouraging negotiations between Arabs and Jews in the Middle East.

 

The United Nations resolution sparked conflict between Jewish and Arab groups within Palestine. Fighting began with attacks by irregular bands of Palestinian Arabs attached to local units of the Arab Liberation Army composed of volunteers from Palestine and neighboring Arab countries. These groups launched their attacks against Jewish cities, settlements, and armed forces. The Jewish forces were composed of the Haganah, the underground militia of the Jewish community in Palestine, and two small irregular groups, the Irgun, and LEHI. The goal of the Arabs was initially to block the Partition Resolution and to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state. The Jews, on the other hand, hoped to gain control over the territory allotted to them under the Partition Plan.

 

After Israel declared its independence on May 14, 1948, the fighting intensified with other Arab forces joining the Palestinian Arabs in attacking territory in the former Palestinian mandate. On the eve of May 14, the Arabs launched an air attack on Tel Aviv, which the Israelis resisted. This action was followed by the invasion of the former Palestinian mandate by Arab armies from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Egypt. Saudi Arabia sent a formation that fought under the Egyptian command. British trained forces from Transjordan eventually intervened in the conflict, but only in areas that had been designated as part of the Arab state under the United Nations Partition Plan and the corpus separatum of Jerusalem. After tense early fighting, Israeli forces, now under joint command, were able to gain the offensive.

 

Though the United Nations brokered two cease-fires during the conflict, fighting continued into 1949. Israel and the Arab states did not reach any formal armistice agreements until February. Under separate agreements between Israel and the neighboring states of Egypt, Lebanon, Transjordan, and Syria, these bordering nations agreed to formal armistice lines. Israel gained some territory formerly granted to Palestinian Arabs under the United Nations resolution in 1947. Egypt and Jordan retained control over the Gaza Strip and the West Bank respectively. These armistice lines held until 1967. The United States did not become directly involved with the armistice negotiations, but hoped that instability in the Middle East would not interfere with the international balance of power between the Soviet Union and the United States.

 

Im well studied on the history of the conflict, thanks, and its pretty wild how you've cherry picked events that suit your bias, as well as May 1948 as the starting date of the conflict, when conveniently, Jewish terrorists were murdering and expelling Palestinians before then.

 

"

Officially adopted on March 10, 1948, Plan Dalet specified which Palestinian cities and towns would be targeted and gave instructions for how to drive out their inhabitants and destroy their communities. It called for:

“Destruction of villages (setting fire to, blowing up, and planting mines in the debris), especially those population centers which are difficult to control continuously...

“Mounting search and control operations according to the following guidelines: encirclement of the village and conducting a search inside it. In the event of resistance, the armed force must be destroyed and the population must be expelled outside the borders of the state.”

• Three quarters of all Palestinians, about 750,000 people, were forced from their homes and made refugees during Israel’s establishment. Their homes, land, and other belongings were systematically destroyed or taken over by Israelis, while they were denied the right to return or any sort of compensation. More than 400 Palestinian towns and villages, including vibrant urban centers, were destroyed or repopulated with Jewish Israelis."

 

 

 

 

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

Im well studied on the history of the conflict, thanks, and its pretty wild how you've cherry picked events that suit your bias, as well as May 1948 as the starting date of the conflict, when conveniently, Jewish terrorists were murdering and expelling Palestinians before then.

 

"

Officially adopted on March 10, 1948, Plan Dalet specified which Palestinian cities and towns would be targeted and gave instructions for how to drive out their inhabitants and destroy their communities. It called for:

“Destruction of villages (setting fire to, blowing up, and planting mines in the debris), especially those population centers which are difficult to control continuously...

“Mounting search and control operations according to the following guidelines: encirclement of the village and conducting a search inside it. In the event of resistance, the armed force must be destroyed and the population must be expelled outside the borders of the state.”

• Three quarters of all Palestinians, about 750,000 people, were forced from their homes and made refugees during Israel’s establishment. Their homes, land, and other belongings were systematically destroyed or taken over by Israelis, while they were denied the right to return or any sort of compensation. More than 400 Palestinian towns and villages, including vibrant urban centers, were destroyed or repopulated with Jewish Israelis."

 

 

 

 

 

Talk about cherry picking...

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

So, then you are of the mind that Israel needs to pull back all of its settlements and cede the land back to the Palestinians?

 

I don't know what the correct solution is on this specifically, but remember a couple of days ago when we were sure the UN would never adopt more involvement and Bibi wasn't in trouble politically? things are moving closer to both over the last few days. Good to see. 

[Elias Pettersson]

4 hours ago, Warhippy said:

So, then you are of the mind that Israel needs to pull back all of its settlements and cede the land back to the Palestinians?

 

Depends what is negotiated.  Might be best for the Palestinians to actually listen to the UN this time versus 1947, when they rejected the Partition Plan, attacked the Jewish people and then lost the war and consequently ended up with less land than if they had just taken the UN deal...

[Taxi]

6 hours ago, Warhippy said:

So, then you are of the mind that Israel needs to pull back all of its settlements and cede the land back to the Palestinians?

Israel has no settlements in Gaza. They removed those about 20 years ago.

[HarbularyBattery]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Depends what is negotiated.  Might be best for the Palestinians to actually listen to the UN this time versus 1947, when they rejected the Partition Plan, attacked the Jewish people and then lost the war and consequently ended up with less land than if they had just taken the UN deal...

Again your understanding of the history is just comical, and honestly, fictional. Welcome to my ignore list. 

[HarbularyBattery]

4 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

I don't know what the correct solution is on this specifically, but remember a couple of days ago when we were sure the UN would never adopt more involvement and Bibi wasn't in trouble politically? things are moving closer to both over the last few days. Good to see. 

Is it that difficult for people to say unequivocally that Israel should lift its military occupation on the west bank and golan heights? And that people in those territories should be allowed to self determine instead of having their homes bulldozed to make room for more settlements?

 

It seems to me this should be as easy to say as I say that Hamas should be eliminated and Israeli civilians should be protected against any and all forms of violence. 

[Bob Long]

9 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

Is it that difficult for people to say unequivocally that Israel should lift its military occupation on the west bank and golan heights? And that people in those territories should be allowed to self determine instead of having their homes bulldozed to make room for more settlements?

 

It seems to me this should be as easy to say as I say that Hamas should be eliminated and Israeli civilians should be protected against any and all forms of violence. 

 

I think that there have been far too many oversimplified takes from outside on this particular issue. Let's let Israel and whatever legitimate government that takes over from Hamas work it out. 

 

This will probably generate a sermon from the usual suspects but we need to let two legitimate governments negotiate what this issue looks like moving forward.

 

Edited June 12 by Bob Long

[HarbularyBattery]

4 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I think that there been far too much oversimplified takes from outside on this particular issue. Let's let Israel and whatever legitimate government that takes over from Hamas work it out.

 

I think its a pretty sad and clear sign of tribal bias when we can so easily and at length condemn the monstrous harms Hamas committed, but cant do the same for the monstrous harms committed by Israel, ethnically cleansing and occupying territory that doesn't belong to it, because "its too complicated to understand". 

 

Edit: people are so quick to condemn the protestors for their double standards, and yet here we are- double standards galore. 

 

95% speaking in this thread are as grossly biased and misinformed as the protestors, just supporting the other tribe. 

Edited June 12 by HarbularyBattery

[Bob Long]

17 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

I think its a pretty sad and clear sign of tribal bias when we can so easily and at length condemn the monstrous harms Hamas committed, but cant do the same for the monstrous harms committed by Israel, ethnically cleansing and occupying territory that doesn't belong to it, because "its too complicated to understand". 

 

Edit: people are so quick to condemn the protestors for their double standards, and yet here we are- double standards galore. 

 

95% speaking in this thread are as grossly biased and misinformed as the protestors, just supporting the other tribe. 

 

I'm talking about how land deals and distribution are arranged. 

 

No one likes what some psycho farmer eg has done.

[Ilunga]

10 hours ago, Taxi said:

Israel has accepted the UN backed ceasefire plan. I was talking about 1948. Israel wants nothing to do with Gaza and it's precious land.

 

Really, Isreal has accepted the UN ceasefire plan ?

 

" Israel's vows to push on in Gaza after UN security council approves ceasefire proposal "

 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/11/middleeast/israel-gaza-un-security-council-ceasefire-intl-hnk/index.html

 

" But an Isreali statement on Tuesday it was poised to sign up to the current ceasefire plan for Gaza, while at the same time maintaining the freedom to keep fighting. "

 

So we agree to stop fighting, however we will keep fighting ? 

 

And your derogatory comment about precious land.

How do you feel about your home ?

Is it precious/valuable  to you ?

 

 

[HarbularyBattery]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

I'm talking about how land deals and distribution are arranged. 

 

No one likes what some psycho farmer eg has done.

 

I dont understnad what you mean by land deal or distribution. The West Bank in its entirety is illegally occupied territory. It does not belong to Israel. It was seized, and since 1967 has been the home of more and more illegal settlements. 

 

It should be easy enough to say that Israel should unconditionally return it and withdraw from it in its entirety. In the exact same way that Hamas should unconditionally give up the hostages, and that any Palestinians that die in an Israeli rescue operation are the fault of Hamas. 

 

People in this thread don't want to take the time to understand why Palestinians are upset or acknowledge in any way that they might actually be kind of justified in their anger. The moment @Ilunga or anyone else brings up a reason, he gets shouted down because again, people are tribal.

 

Im pretty much done with this thread. Its depressing to see how the 35-60 year olds of our world have decided that only their tribe are worthy of fairness justice and compassion. I guess the state of our world is no surprise.  I hope Gen Z can do better. 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

I dont understnad what you mean by land deal or distribution. The West Bank in its entirety is illegally occupied territory. It does not belong to Israel. It was seized, and since 1967 has been the home of more and more illegal settlements. 

 

It should be easy enough to say that Israel should unconditionally return it and withdraw from it in its entirety. In the exact same way that Hamas should unconditionally give up the hostages, and that any Palestinians that die in an Israeli rescue operation are the fault of Hamas. 

 

People in this thread don't want to take the time to understand why Palestinians are upset or acknowledge in any way that they might actually be kind of justified in their anger. The moment @Ilunga or anyone else brings up a reason, he gets shouted down because again, people are tribal.

 

Im pretty much done with this thread. Its depressing to see how the 35-60 year olds of our world have decided that only their tribe are worthy of fairness justice and compassion. I guess the state of our world is no surprise.  I hope Gen Z can do better. 

 

Roman has pointed out it's not this simple.