Hamas attacking Israel

[HarbularyBattery]

4 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

Roman has pointed out it's not this simple.

 

Roman is wrong, and the entire international community including the United States agrees its illegally occupied territory, and that the settlements are not permitted under international law. 

 

A poster that believes that the entirety of the land belongs to Israel, who ignores the property rights of the native population that has lived there for 2000 years, is not an unbiased and fairminded arbiter. 

 

Edit: i have now been corrected - the above does not represent his opinion and im sorry

Edited June 12 by HarbularyBattery

[Ilunga]

I am sorry if I have given the impression that people don't care about what is happening to the Palestinians/children in Gaza. 

 

As the people who know me well on this forum know, I am a very passionate person.

 

I also admit that events in my personal life are effecting the way I am posting.  

 

I have always been a person who takes people's suffering to heart. 

 

 

[Bob Long]

23 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

Roman is wrong, and the entire international community including the United States agrees its illegally occupied territory, and that the settlements are not permitted under international law. 

 

A poster that believes that the entirety of the land belongs to Israel, who ignores the property rights of the native population that has lived there for 2000 years, is not an unbiased and fairminded arbiter. 

 

Roman has lived experience there, do you?

[Optimist Prime]

24 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

It should be easy enough to say that Israel should unconditionally return it and withdraw from it in its entirety. In the exact same way that Hamas should unconditionally give up the hostages, and that any Palestinians that die in an Israeli rescue operation are the fault of Hamas. 

The west bank was a mix of small communities from both communities, before the 50's even the separation plan there was for enclaves of both to exist separatly but not in one giant patch each. 

 

Quote

People in this thread don't want to take the time to understand....

Is true of everyone posting here, not one 'side' or the other.  Myself included, we can't understand it because we aren't living it. All added up I have spent years in the middle east with the UN and Canadian Embassies et cetera, and Roman Per has spent time in the Ukraine and with the IDF, probably more time than I have spent in the region, from what I can gather. I understand his perspective and it isn't over the top by any stretch. 

 

At the end of the day, Hamas attacked Israel on Oct 7th and Israel must be able to secure peace on their southwestern border with Gaza. If the government of Gaza didn't attack Israel on the 7th of October, none of the last 8 months horrid affair will have happened. 

[HarbularyBattery]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

Roman has lived experience there, do you?

 

I know a half dozen people who do, and you know what - none of them are particularly fairminded because they're part of one of the tribes. 

[Bob Long]

Just now, HarbularyBattery said:

 

I know a half dozen people who do, and you know what - none of them are particularly fairminded because they're part of one of the tribes. 

 

Oh well, we are all human.

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, HarbularyBattery said:

Again your understanding of the history is just comical, and honestly, fictional. Welcome to my ignore list. 

Thank God. 

[HarbularyBattery]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

Oh well, we are all human.

and my wish is that we would put even 10% of our effort into being better than a bunch of tribal apes and yet what this thread has taught me is that nobody wants to do that.

 

everyones happy living in their fictional world, supporting their chosen tribe, ignoring the injustices they committed and the repercussions of those actions. its a whole lot easier than looking in the mirror and finding the courage to accept some of the responsibility, and do your part to address those wrongs. I think deep down most people dont want a solution, they just want to be part of their little tribe and turn a blind eye to the horrors inflicted on all others. We've been doing this forever - slavery sure lasted way fucking longer than it should have because we'll construct any biased narrative we have to to defend our way of life and our tribe, no matter how barbaric and evil the acts. 

 

i cant take anyone seriously that takes a strong moral stance on the evils committed by the PLO throughout the 80s and hamas now, and yet feels that the barbaric conduct of israel towards the native palestinian population played no part in the creation of those evil terrorist organizations. israel bears a fuckload of responsibility for the conditions that exist today, and so does hamas. 

 

though i respect the honesty of the people that pick a side and admit they're just enjoying being part of a team. at least its honest. 

 

 

 

[HarbularyBattery]

13 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

The west bank was a mix of small communities from both communities, before the 50's even the separation plan there was for enclaves of both to exist separatly but not in one giant patch each. 

 

Is true of everyone posting here, not one 'side' or the other.  Myself included, we can't understand it because we aren't living it. All added up I have spent years in the middle east with the UN and Canadian Embassies et cetera, and Roman Per has spent time in the Ukraine and with the IDF, probably more time than I have spent in the region, from what I can gather. I understand his perspective and it isn't over the top by any stretch. 

 

At the end of the day, Hamas attacked Israel on Oct 7th and Israel must be able to secure peace on their southwestern border with Gaza. If the government of Gaza didn't attack Israel on the 7th of October, none of the last 8 months horrid affair will have happened. 

 

it is not even slightly in dispute that the west bank is occupied territory. if Israel wants to annex it fine, but then it owes people there political rights. They have none. If Israel doesn't want to give those people political rights, it needs to get the fuck out. This is not a complicated or controversial statement, it is virtually universally agreed upon by the international community. the only people who disagree with it are, again, being tribal about it all. 

 

i agree with you that if hamas didn't attack israel on the 7th of october, all of these civilians who have died in the past 7 months would still be alive. its like i said earlier, hamas bears responsibility for every single civilian casualty in the hostage rescue operation, because israel has a moral imperative to rescue its innocent civilians. all of those deaths fall squarely on hamas shoulders, full stop. 

 

but you know what - if israel decided to treat palestinians with less barbarism and horror, hamas wouldn't exist either. so theres that. 

 

anyway i said it above. im profoundly disturbed by the tribalism in here. it makes me sad. the only thing that makes me happy is most of us in here myself included are old farts, and i trust gen z will do better than us, because we fucking suck. 

[Ilunga]

16 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

it is not even slightly in dispute that the west bank is occupied territory. if Israel wants to annex it fine, but then it owes people there political rights. They have none. If Israel doesn't want to give those people political rights, it needs to get the fuck out. This is not a complicated or controversial statement, it is virtually universally agreed upon by the international community. the only people who disagree with it are, again, being tribal about it all. 

 

i agree with you that if hamas didn't attack israel on the 7th of october, all of these civilians who have died in the past 7 months would still be alive. its like i said earlier, hamas bears responsibility for every single civilian casualty in the hostage rescue operation, because israel has a moral imperative to rescue its innocent civilians. all of those deaths fall squarely on hamas shoulders, full stop. 

 

but you know what - if israel decided to treat palestinians with less barbarism and horror, hamas wouldn't exist either. so theres that. 

 

anyway i said it above. im profoundly disturbed by the tribalism in here. it makes me sad. the only thing that makes me happy is most of us in here myself included are old farts, and i trust gen z will do better than us, because we fucking suck. 

 

 

I have stated countless times on this and the old board that my tribe is Homo sapiens.

The human race.

 

We can all trace our origins back somewhere in south east Africa. 

 

And most of us want the same things.

A safe/secure place for our families. 

Food on the table.

Access to a good education.  

 

As I have stated countless times in this thread.

I want both Isrealis and Palestinians to have those things.

[Bob Long]

30 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

and my wish is that we would put even 10% of our effort into being better than a bunch of tribal apes and yet what this thread has taught me is that nobody wants to do that.

 

everyones happy living in their fictional world, supporting their chosen tribe, ignoring the injustices they committed and the repercussions of those actions. its a whole lot easier than looking in the mirror and finding the courage to accept some of the responsibility, and do your part to address those wrongs. I think deep down most people dont want a solution, they just want to be part of their little tribe and turn a blind eye to the horrors inflicted on all others. We've been doing this forever - slavery sure lasted way fucking longer than it should have because we'll construct any biased narrative we have to to defend our way of life and our tribe, no matter how barbaric and evil the acts. 

 

i cant take anyone seriously that takes a strong moral stance on the evils committed by the PLO throughout the 80s and hamas now, and yet feels that the barbaric conduct of israel towards the native palestinian population played no part in the creation of those evil terrorist organizations. israel bears a fuckload of responsibility for the conditions that exist today, and so does hamas. 

 

though i respect the honesty of the people that pick a side and admit they're just enjoying being part of a team. at least its honest. 

 

 

 

 

Well, dunno. I tend to like to look at the bigger picture vs getting bogged down in moment to moment stuff for things like this.

 

Israel is the only democracy in the ME, so it's likely that the solution comes from them. 

 

They are also the ones that have to figure out how to live with their neighbors, not us in here. So there's that reality.

 

I dgaf what some kid campus protestor has to say, or some of the many other groups that are taking this and using it to make their own adjacent political point.

Edited June 12 by Bob Long

[HarbularyBattery]

7 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Well, dunno. I tend to like to look at the bigger picture vs getting bogged down in moment to moment stuff for things like this.

 

Israel is the only democracy in the ME, so it's likely that the solution comes from them. 

 

They are also the ones that have to figure out how to live with their neighbors, not us in here. So there's that reality.

 

I dgaf what some kid campus protestor has to say, or some of the many other groups that are taking this and using it to make their own adjacent political point.

thats all well and good to care about how israel has to live with its neighbours. you should do that.

 

what those protestors have done though in a very one sided and biased way is also tried to examine how millions of palestinians are supposed to live with their neighbor that has inflicted dispossession, abuse, and violence on them. 

 

my point is i see a lot of one sidedness which is a reflection of inbuilt tribalism. that one sidedness leads people to the ultimate wrong conclusion, case in point - people in this thread who argue that the key to peace is israel continuing to bomb the shit out of gaza to try to eradicate hamas, without addressing the reasons hamas exists in the first place. 

 

intellectual honesty is rare, and this video is one of the few examples ive seen. it includes references to the horrors done by both sides, throughout the last 100 years, and explains clearly how we've arrived here today. far more honest than a certain posters "ah well if palestinians dont like dying, they shouldnt have started a war in 1948" caricature. maybe after watching something like this people will realize that its not enough to smash one side with moral outrage while excusing the evil behaviour of the other. 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

10 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Well, dunno. I tend to like to look at the bigger picture vs getting bogged down in moment to moment stuff for things like this.

 

Israel is the only democracy in the ME, so it's likely that the solution comes from them. 

 

They are also the ones that have to figure out how to live with their neighbors, not us in here. So there's that reality.

 

I dgaf what some kid campus protestor has to say, or some of the many other groups that are taking this and using it to make their own adjacent political point.

 

I know you are ignoring me however I want this on the record because you continually repeat that Isreal is the only democracy in the middle east. 

 

" Isreal no longer " liberal democracy " for the first time in 50 years. " 

 

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-792939

 

And why it was downgraded to an electoral democracy is that Isreal no longer has 

" Judicial and legislative constraints on the executive along with the protection of civil liberties and equality before the law "

 

How did they get there ?

 

Well according to Yair Golan former IDF chief of staff, Meretz MK and current candidate for the leadership of the labour party 

 

" A full year of Messianic dreams, incessant threats against the judicial system, oppressive legislation, threats against freedom of the press, harming fundamental rights of demonstration, and appointing ministers who are criminals " ( yes actual criminals) " led us to our ranking as a liberal democracy. 

 

You always state you want to hear from people who have lived experience, well they don't come much more " lived " than Yair. 

 

He is the person we all hope will replace Netanyahu as leader of Israel.

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

Roman is wrong, and the entire international community including the United States agrees its illegally occupied territory, and that the settlements are not permitted under international law. 

 

A poster that believes that the entirety of the land belongs to Israel, who ignores the property rights of the native population that has lived there for 2000 years, is not an unbiased and fairminded arbiter. 

You are full of bullshit. Where did I say what you are attributing to me?

[HarbularyBattery]

Just now, Ilunga said:

 

I know you are ignoring me however I want this on the record because you continually repeat that Isreal is the only democracy in the middle east. 

 

" Isreal no longer " liberal democracy " for the first time in 50 years. " 

 

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-792939

 

And why it was downgraded to an electoral democracy is that Isreal no longer has 

" Judicial and legislative constraints on the executive along with the protection of civil liberties and equality before the law "

 

How did they get there ?

 

Well according to Yair Golan former IDF chief of staff, Meretz MK and current candidate for the leadership of the labour party 

 

" A full year of Messianic dreams, incessant threats against the judicial system, oppressive legislation, threats against freedom of the press, harming fundamental rights of demonstration, and appointing ministers who are criminals " ( yes actual criminals) " led us to our ranking as a liberal democracy. 

 

You always state you want to hear from people who have lived experience, well they don't come much more " lived " than Yair. 

 

He is the person we all hope will replace Netanyahu as leader of Israel.

 

in terms of political structure though i think israel is the best in the middle east and for the population in its borders including its 20% arab population, conclusively democratic by any standard. they can and will throw out netanyahu. the structural problem comes when you include the population of the west bank, who have no political rights. thats where the democratic claim gets murky

 

however israels neighbors are far worse in historical conduct, and many are worse in current conduct. ill always take a flawed israel over any of: the saudi royal family, the iraqi baathists, the iranian theocracy, and the vast majority of the monsters and warlords that have ruled the ME. im pretty sure most of the arab population within israel proper would probably take living in a flawed israel over living in iran or turkey etc.

 

change in the middle east is going to have to come from within, another arab spring. it will happen eventually. young arabs want freedom, oil money is only going to protect the corrupt rulers for so long. 

 

 

[HarbularyBattery]

6 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

You are full of bullshit. Where did I say what you are attributing to me?

correct me on the record then - do the palestinians not have the right to the west bank? and do the arabs who fled lehi and irgun not have property rights to go home?

 

if you agree with the above, youre right, ive got you completely wrong

[Ilunga]

14 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

in terms of political structure though i think israel is the best in the middle east and for the population in its borders including its 20% arab population, conclusively democratic by any standard. they can and will throw out netanyahu. the structural problem comes when you include the population of the west bank, who have no political rights. thats where the democratic claim gets murky

 

however israels neighbors are far worse in historical conduct, and many are worse in current conduct. ill always take a flawed israel over any of: the saudi royal family, the iraqi baathists, the iranian theocracy, and the vast majority of the monsters and warlords that have ruled the ME. im pretty sure most of the arab population within israel proper would probably take living in a flawed israel over living in iran or turkey etc.

 

change in the middle east is going to have to come from within, another arab spring. it will happen eventually. young arabs want freedom, oil money is only going to protect the corrupt rulers for so long. 

 

 

 

I have already stated how I feel about the " mullahs " in Iran.

And again as I have stated, whose fault is it that they are in charge ?

Maybe the British and Americans when they backed the coup that deposed the democratically elected government of Mohammad Mosaddegh.

Things could have been a lot different now if that hadn't happened. 

 

I have also expressed my " disdain " for Mohammed bin chainsaw and his family. 

 

Iraq is the closest to what we might think of as a democracy, regular elections, but political scientists consider it a " consolidated democracy ", in other words there is the threat of changing the outcome of the elections after the event. 

 

As for the rest of the middle east, yes nothing that could be called a democracy. 

 

I was watching a world cup qualifier between Palestine and Australia last night. 

I was actually amazed that Palestine was still able to field a team and play.

Both teams are  considered to be in the Asian region according to FIFA.

Edited June 12 by Ilunga

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 and i trust gen z will do better

I hope they can, but I am seeing very little evidence of that.

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, HarbularyBattery said:

correct me on the record then - do the palestinians not have the right to the west bank? and do the arabs who fled lehi and irgun not have property rights to go home?

 

if you agree with the above, youre right, ive got you completely wrong

 

I have no problem with Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza as long as Palestinian government can control the violence against Israel. We have different opinions on what transpired in 1948. I can also go beyond that year and bring countless examples of Jewish pogroms in that part of the world by the hands of people calling themselves Palestinians now. I can also bring up all the lands and other possessions lost by Jews who had to escape Arab countries in the 50s. The number of Jews expelled from the Arab countries roughly equals the number of Palestinians who left their homes in 1948. There will be no permanent solution if both sides keep on going back in history. Both side have legitimate claims for being mistreated by the other side at one point or another. Living in Israel, I can tell that majority of Israelis’ main fear is their safety and living under fear often produces mistrust and overreaction. I’ve said the same thing in this thread many times. But I will not respond to one sided selective events, taken out of context. I will also not respond to opinions presented as facts.

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

I hope they can, but I am seeing very little evidence of that.

 

Almost every 20 year old liberal becomes a conservative by their 40s birthday once they start making more money and realize how much in taxes they have to pay  

[HarbularyBattery]

12 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I have no problem with Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza as long as Palestinian government can control the violence against Israel. We have different opinions on what transpired in 1948. I can also go beyond that year and bring countless examples of Jewish pogroms in that part of the world by the hands of people calling themselves Palestinians now. I can also bring up all the lands and other possessions lost by Jews who had to escape Arab countries in the 50s. The number of Jews expelled from the Arab countries roughly equals the number of Palestinians who left their homes in 1948. There will be no permanent solution if both sides keep on going back in history. Both side have legitimate claims for being mistreated by the other side at one point or another. Living in Israel, I can tell that majority of Israelis’ main fear is their safety and living under fear often produces mistrust and overreaction. I’ve said the same thing in this thread many times. But I will not respond to one sided selective events, taken out of context. I will also not respond to opinions presented as facts.

 

Thats fair minded and balanced of you and i agree, i was wrong and im sorry i misunderstood and misrepresented your position

 

we dont have to agree on the history to agree on the solution and that both sides have mistreated each other and in the end trust has to be rebuilt

 

trust isnt going to get rebuilt with hamas in power, nor with the right wing extremists in israel like ben gvir and netanyahu who hold that position that i incorrectly characterized as yours

 

in the end ur right both sides have legitimate claims to poor treatment and solutions wont be found going into the well of history, but both sides do have to be fair to each other. in the end, neither population is leaving. israelis arent leaving, and the palestinians arent going to egypt or jordan. 

[RomanPer]

2 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

Thats fair minded and balanced of you and i agree, i was wrong and im sorry i misunderstood and misrepresented your position

 

we dont have to agree on the history to agree on the solution and that both sides have mistreated each other and in the end trust has to be rebuilt

 

trust isnt going to get rebuilt with hamas in power, nor with the right wing extremists in israel like ben gvir and netanyahu who hold that position that i incorrectly characterized as yours

 

in the end ur right both sides have legitimate claims to poor treatment and solutions wont be found going into the well of history, but both sides do have to be fair to each other. in the end, neither population is leaving. israelis arent leaving, and the palestinians arent going to egypt or jordan. 

 

I 100% agree on guys like Ben Gvir and Smotrich. Netanyahu, in my mind, is something different - he became a corrupt politician who is now making deals with Ben Gvirs of the world to keep himself in power in order to keep himself from prosecution. I remember very well the breath of fresh air in Israeli politics when young Bibi entered the politics. I lived in Israel at that time and believe me - it was completely different Bibi. But I agree - he needs to go. Said it from day 1 (October 7th).

[HarbularyBattery]

10 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I 100% agree on guys like Ben Gvir and Smotrich. Netanyahu, in my mind, is something different - he became a corrupt politician who is now making deals with Ben Gvirs of the world to keep himself in power in order to keep himself from prosecution. I remember very well the breath of fresh air in Israeli politics when young Bibi entered the politics. I lived in Israel at that time and believe me - it was completely different Bibi. But I agree - he needs to go. Said it from day 1 (October 7th).

this is the only netanyahu i remember, but i cant say i know anything about his early politics

 

by the time i heard about him, he was already representing what i felt to be the worst elements of israeli politics https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/16/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-palestinian-state/index.html

 

shame if he started off as a good man and was corrupted

[RomanPer]

4 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

this is the only netanyahu i remember, but i cant say i know anything about his early politics

 

by the time i heard about him, he was already representing what i felt to be the worst elements of israeli politics https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/16/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-palestinian-state/index.html

 

shame if he started off as a good man and was corrupted

 

He started as Israeli Ambassador to the UN, with his perfect English, US education, distinguished military career in Sayeret Matkal and also being a brother of the only Israeli commando who died in the Operation Entebbe. Many contribute his regression to his wife Sarah, who is the real bitch. Her latest phrase that put her in the middle of yet another scandal is her complaining that released hostages “didn’t even say thank you”. Stupid cow…

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Almost every 20 year old liberal becomes a conservative by their 40s birthday once they start making more money and realize how much in taxes they have to pay  

 

I don't mind paying taxes.

 

I expect the society I live in to provide health care, education and other services. 

 

I also expect us, as a society to look after our most vulnerable members. 

 

All this takes money. 

 

I also believe that the more you earn, the more tax you should pay. 

 

Somehow the richest bastards of all, pay fuck all tax. 

 

Just like the guy, who used to be Australia's richest man back in the 80's, Kerry Packer.

 

He only paid $30 in taxes for a three year period. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/packer-sees-off-the-revenue-men-1178375.html

 

What ever label you would like to use, liberal - conservative.

I have the same morals now at 60, that I have always had.