Hamas attacking Israel

[Gnarcore]

9 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Almost every 20 year old liberal becomes a conservative by their 40s birthday once they start making more money and realize how much in taxes they have to pay  

If you're not a liberal in your 20s you have no heart. If you're not a conservative in your 30 you have no brain. 

Always liked that saying as it is apt. Personally I run the gambit of rather left to rather right depending on the issue

[Optimist Prime]

Yeah, despite literally supporting the Canadian Federal Liberal party, I am an issue by issue thinker/decider. I have extreme left views, on certain topics and views that are more than half way towards the far right from center. I still think I have yet to see any signs that the latest generation will be anything 'good' for the nation or the world. I do lean globalist, and I have good feelings in that regard about the newest generation, I think that nationalism will subside over the coming decades and a more global consciousness will consume Canadians. Hopefully them damn Yankees too. 

 

an example of a more right wing viewpoint; I can easily predict that an independent and officially recognized Palestine will absolutely attack Israel again before the year 2042. That is just enough time to raise a new army from the cradle while building up arms from sympathetic regimes. I base this on every statement I have ever read from the extremists among the Palestinians. It is like that old SNL sketch "All i want is this sammich. All i want is this sandwich and that hat. All i want is this sandwich, that hat and this bag. All i want is this sandwich, that hat, this bag and a bottle. All I want is... you get the idea. I have heard so called politicians among the Palestinians start with We want to live in peace..and by the end of the same speech work them selves up to the inevitable 'and death to Israel'. As such I have zero faith that an independent and recognized Palestinian state would be a peaceful one. Zero faith. Just to keep my post on topic. I consider my opinion valid and evidence based, but also a right wing perspective. For Palestine, being a real nation is not the end goal, it is a step towards the end goal and as the sharks say, 'for that reason, I am out.'

[Bonkers]

On 6/12/2024 at 2:26 AM, HarbularyBattery said:

 

I think its a pretty sad and clear sign of tribal bias when we can so easily and at length condemn the monstrous harms Hamas committed, but cant do the same for the monstrous harms committed by Israel, ethnically cleansing and occupying territory that doesn't belong to it, because "its too complicated to understand". 

 

Edit: people are so quick to condemn the protestors for their double standards, and yet here we are- double standards galore. 

 

95% speaking in this thread are as grossly biased and misinformed as the protestors, just supporting the other tribe. 

 

I have a question about this: "monstrous harms committed by Israel, ethnically cleansing and occupying territory that doesn't belong to it".

When you say ethnically cleansing, are you talking about the past year or events from the past? 

[HarbularyBattery]

7 hours ago, Bonkers said:

 

I have a question about this: "monstrous harms committed by Israel, ethnically cleansing and occupying territory that doesn't belong to it".

When you say ethnically cleansing, are you talking about the past year or events from the past? 

 

The past, theres no evidence israel is trying to force people out of Gaza. 

 

The conditions in the West Bank are 100% apartheid though, ive shared my argument for that earlier in this thread

[Bob Long]

23 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

The past, theres no evidence israel is trying to force people out of Gaza. 

 

I would think the population numbers in Gaza would be enough evidence of that. 

 

23 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

The conditions in the West Bank are 100% apartheid though, ive shared my argument for that earlier in this thread

 

this is the stuff that bothers me about the discussion. No it's not apartheid. It's not genocide either, nor is it colonialism or whatever the NAACP in the US wants it to be either. 

 

This conflict seems to be a mirror for whatever social issue one group or another wants to use it for. 

 

[HarbularyBattery]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

I would think the population numbers in Gaza would be enough evidence of that. 

 

 

this is the stuff that bothers me about the discussion. No it's not apartheid. It's not genocide either, nor is it colonialism or whatever the NAACP in the US wants it to be either. 

 

This conflict seems to be a mirror for whatever social issue one group or another wants to use it for. 

 

 

The West Bank is occupied territory, the Israeli military enforces separate systems of rights for Palestinian residents vs the Israeli settlers that are there. Thats the definition of apartheid. It doesnt sound good, its an ugly accusation, but its the truth, sorry.

 

Does this apply to Israel proper?  No. Arab citizens of Israel are equal citizens under the law there.

 

If Israel doesn't want to be correctly accused of apartheid, it needs to withdraw from the West Bank, or annex it and give all residents equal rights. 

 

What bothers me in this thread is people are VERY willing to eloquently and accurately describe the crimes committed by Hamas, and just won't do the same of Israel, when the reality of the conditions that have brought us to the moment are very obvious to anyone who's willing to let go of thier tribalism. 

 

[Bob Long]

31 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

The West Bank is occupied territory, the Israeli military enforces separate systems of rights for Palestinian residents vs the Israeli settlers that are there. Thats the definition of apartheid. It doesnt sound good, its an ugly accusation, but its the truth, sorry.

 

Does this apply to Israel proper?  No. Arab citizens of Israel are equal citizens under the law there.

 

If Israel doesn't want to be correctly accused of apartheid, it needs to withdraw from the West Bank, or annex it and give all residents equal rights. 

 

What bothers me in this thread is people are VERY willing to eloquently and accurately describe the crimes committed by Hamas, and just won't do the same of Israel, when the reality of the conditions that have brought us to the moment are very obvious to anyone who's willing to let go of thier tribalism. 

 

 

"Won't do the same" - to what end? What's your end goal.

[HarbularyBattery]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

"Won't do the same" - to what end? What's your end goal.

 

how about the truth, thats a pretty good end goal

 

you know why Israel has never felt any political pressure to work out a land swap deal to atone for the 1948 ethnic cleansing, or dismantle the apartheid system in the West Bank, or stop settlement of occupied territory? Because people, like most in this thread, refuse to accept that Israel can do wrong which has led to violent blowback. If you actually care about the violence ending, you want those wrongs to be addressed, and Palestinians and Israelis alike to be given a fair chance to live in peace as equals.  

 

If you were a Palestinian in the West Bank, and your child got shot right outside your house by a settler who is only there because Israel encourages them to do so and protects them, you can't tell me that wouldnt radicalize you. Thats my point. And you know what, the same applies to Hamas. Israel used to have a moderate, centrist government and I can assume that ongoing violence from Hezbollah and Hamas made Israelis sick and tired of it all. If I lived in Israel and I had to run out to grab my child because sirens are warning of a rocket thats coming down, I'd be ready to vote for a right wing party that tells me they can end the threat to my familys life once and for all.

 

 

 

 

[RomanPer]

16 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

how about the truth, thats a pretty good end goal

 

you know why Israel has never felt any political pressure to work out a land swap deal to atone for the 1948 ethnic cleansing, or dismantle the apartheid system in the West Bank, or stop settlement of occupied territory? Because people, like most in this thread, refuse to accept that Israel can do wrong which has led to violent blowback. If you actually care about the violence ending, you want those wrongs to be addressed, and Palestinians and Israelis alike to be given a fair chance to live in peace as equals.  

 

If you were a Palestinian in the West Bank, and your child got shot right outside your house by a settler who is only there because Israel encourages them to do so and protects them, you can't tell me that wouldnt radicalize you. Thats my point. And you know what, the same applies to Hamas. Israel used to have a moderate, centrist government and I can assume that ongoing violence from Hezbollah and Hamas made Israelis sick and tired of it all. If I lived in Israel and I had to run out to grab my child because sirens are warning of a rocket thats coming down, I'd be ready to vote for a right wing party that tells me they can end the threat to my familys life once and for all.

 

 

 

 

 

You are using big words like "1948 ethnic cleansing". If you are referring to the Deir Yassin - I suggest you listen to the actual eye witnesses on the Palestinian side from that event: 

 

[Bob Long]

20 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

how about the truth, thats a pretty good end goal

 

you know why Israel has never felt any political pressure to work out a land swap deal to atone for the 1948 ethnic cleansing, or dismantle the apartheid system in the West Bank, or stop settlement of occupied territory? Because people, like most in this thread, refuse to accept that Israel can do wrong which has led to violent blowback. If you actually care about the violence ending, you want those wrongs to be addressed, and Palestinians and Israelis alike to be given a fair chance to live in peace as equals.  

 

If you were a Palestinian in the West Bank, and your child got shot right outside your house by a settler who is only there because Israel encourages them to do so and protects them, you can't tell me that wouldnt radicalize you. Thats my point. And you know what, the same applies to Hamas. Israel used to have a moderate, centrist government and I can assume that ongoing violence from Hezbollah and Hamas made Israelis sick and tired of it all. If I lived in Israel and I had to run out to grab my child because sirens are warning of a rocket thats coming down, I'd be ready to vote for a right wing party that tells me they can end the threat to my familys life once and for all.

 

 

 

 

 

Spare me the sermon. Tell me the next logical step to solve this conflict.

[HarbularyBattery]

11 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

You are using big words like "1948 ethnic cleansing". If you are referring to the Deir Yassin - I suggest you listen to the actual eye witnesses on the Palestinian side from that event: 

 

Im not referring to Deir Yassin. Im referring to the expulsion of 700k people from their homes and the immediate confiscation of their property, and refusal to pay compensation if they werent going to be allowed back in. Benny Morris concluded there was no massacre/mass rape in Deir Yassin, I tend to believe him, as hes one of the most honest historians Ive found. Take Lydda and Ramle, conquered by Israeli forces - 50-70k Palestinians expelled. The goal was to evict and expel Arabs,  from those towns, Benny morris uses the words "to induce civilian panic and flight". I think anyone that argues that the IDF didn't intentionally expel Palestinians from greater Israel is just intellectually dishonest about the history. Israel needed to expel a majority of the Arabs in order to have demographic majority in its eventual territory. I can understand why - if your religious group has been massacred and attacked throughout history, i think its completely fair to say enough is enough about being a minority that people have free reign to abuse, murder, scapegoat, etc. Its worth saying I dont think this should change too (obviously). 1. Whatever was done in 1948, the current people in Israel have no responsibility for. They didn't do it. So they should not be punished for it. 2. The world has proven yet again that it has no problem scapegoating and attacking Jewish people, the existence of Israel guarantees the existence of the Jewish people.

[HarbularyBattery]

24 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Spare me the sermon. Tell me the next logical step to solve this conflict.

 

What Sermon? Nothing I said was untrue. "Bomb the shit out of Hamas" is a dumb plan for peace, nothing gets solved until you fix the causes for its existence, which is rooted in mistreatment and abuse of the Palestinians. 

 

The fairest outcome? here it is:

 

1. Palestinians have to root out and turn over Hamas leaders to the IDF themselves, and the following provisions do not kick in until this is done

2. Upon fulfillment of the deal terms below, Palestinians have to recognize Israel as a Jewish state according to the current borders, forfeits claims to return to their 1948 homes, with some modifications for land swaps

 

-

A. Withdrawal of IDF and all settlements, checkpoints, and military installations from the West Bank and East Jerusalem

B. Israel provides land that connects the West Bank with Gaza to create a contiguous land mass, in exchange for palestinians forfeiting their right of return. 

C. Israel recognizes a Palestinian state based on those terms and borders

 

 

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

What Sermon? Nothing I said was untrue. "Bomb the shit out of Hamas" is a dumb plan for peace, nothing gets solved until you fix the causes for its existence, which is rooted in mistreatment and abuse of the Palestinians. 

 

The fairest outcome? here it is:

 

1. Palestinians have to root out and turn over Hamas leaders to the IDF themselves, and the following provisions do not kick in until this is done

2. Upon fulfillment of the deal terms below, Palestinians have to recognize Israel as a Jewish state according to the current borders, forfeits claims to return to their 1948 homes, with some modifications for land swaps

 

-

A. Withdrawal of IDF and all settlements, checkpoints, and military installations from the West Bank and East Jerusalem

B. Israel provides land that connects the West Bank with Gaza to create a contiguous land mass, in exchange for palestinians forfeiting their right of return. 

C. Israel recognizes a Palestinian state based on those terms and borders

 

 

 

I think you're going to need some way of holding fair elections as well as some kind of security agreement whereby Israel can guarantee that there aren't more tunnels and arms capacity being rebuilt.

[HarbularyBattery]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I think you're going to need some way of holding fair elections as well as some kind of security agreement whereby Israel can guarantee that there aren't more tunnels and arms capacity being rebuilt.

 

If the new state of Palestine in any way attacks the state of Israel, it would be handled the way any country attacks another country - Israel would have every right to a military response. If that attack comes from the government of Palestine, Israel would have the right to overthrow that government. 

 

 I also forgot to add one provision - there has to be limits on any kind of military by the Palestinian state. It cant be allowed a full fledged military, given the proximity to Israel. No airforce, etc. Adherence to these terms would have to be set up by international inspectors, and if there was a buildup of weaponry in Palestine, the state would have to be sanctioned and Israel should have the right to destroy that weaponry and those installations. Maybe after 40-50 years of proving peace and good neighborliness, those restrictions could be lifted. Palestine would have the right to have its own police force, but no full fledged military. It could enter into some collective defense agreement with another government it trusts, god knows its surrounded by enough allies that it shouldn't require its own military.

 

Edit: and yes, free and fair elections, ofc. 

Edited June 13 by HarbularyBattery

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, HarbularyBattery said:

 

What Sermon? Nothing I said was untrue. "Bomb the shit out of Hamas" is a dumb plan for peace, nothing gets solved until you fix the causes for its existence, which is rooted in mistreatment and abuse of the Palestinians. 

 

The fairest outcome? here it is:

 

1. Palestinians have to root out and turn over Hamas leaders to the IDF themselves, and the following provisions do not kick in until this is done

2. Upon fulfillment of the deal terms below, Palestinians have to recognize Israel as a Jewish state according to the current borders, forfeits claims to return to their 1948 homes, with some modifications for land swaps

 

-

A. Withdrawal of IDF and all settlements, checkpoints, and military installations from the West Bank and East Jerusalem

B. Israel provides land that connects the West Bank with Gaza to create a contiguous land mass, in exchange for palestinians forfeiting their right of return. 

C. Israel recognizes a Palestinian state based on those terms and borders

 

 

Im pretty sure that if the first 2 options are truly implemented (and not considered by Palestinians as a temporary concession before trying to achieve their ultimate goal to get rid of all the Jews in that part of the world) than the Israeli part will be much easier to achieve.

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, HarbularyBattery said:

Im not referring to Deir Yassin. Im referring to the expulsion of 700k people from their homes and the immediate confiscation of their property, and refusal to pay compensation if they werent going to be allowed back in. Benny Morris concluded there was no massacre/mass rape in Deir Yassin, I tend to believe him, as hes one of the most honest historians Ive found. Take Lydda and Ramle, conquered by Israeli forces - 50-70k Palestinians expelled. The goal was to evict and expel Arabs,  from those towns, Benny morris uses the words "to induce civilian panic and flight". I think anyone that argues that the IDF didn't intentionally expel Palestinians from greater Israel is just intellectually dishonest about the history. Israel needed to expel a majority of the Arabs in order to have demographic majority in its eventual territory. I can understand why - if your religious group has been massacred and attacked throughout history, i think its completely fair to say enough is enough about being a minority that people have free reign to abuse, murder, scapegoat, etc. Its worth saying I dont think this should change too (obviously). 1. Whatever was done in 1948, the current people in Israel have no responsibility for. They didn't do it. So they should not be punished for it. 2. The world has proven yet again that it has no problem scapegoating and attacking Jewish people, the existence of Israel guarantees the existence of the Jewish people.

There are just as many examples where it was Arab leaders who called for their people to vacate in order for the armies of the Arab countries “taking care of the Jews”. You can’t put all the blame for what happened in 1948 on one side. After all, it was Arab countries that started the war, using Der Yassin as an excuse. Also, I bring up again about 700k Jews who had to flee Arab countries and have their properties confiscated after their departure. Everything in that part of the world is a two way street.

[HarbularyBattery]

3 hours ago, RomanPer said:

There are just as many examples where it was Arab leaders who called for their people to vacate in order for the armies of the Arab countries “taking care of the Jews”. You can’t put all the blame for what happened in 1948 on one side. After all, it was Arab countries that started the war, using Der Yassin as an excuse. Also, I bring up again about 700k Jews who had to flee Arab countries and have their properties confiscated after their departure. Everything in that part of the world is a two way street.

 

we can debate the history of exactly what happened, there were terrorist attacks by Arabs on Jewish communities before 1948, and similarly there were terrorist attacks by Irgun and the like on Arabs before 1948, there was a ton of violence and a lot of the expulsion and flight happened before May 1948 when arab armies invaded. Jews who fled arab countries should be entitled to restitution as well if desired, and if they ever wanted to go back (though i cant imagine why they would) they should have the right to do so or at least be compensated for the confiscation of their property. 

 

Regardless of how it exactly came about, theres no dispute that 700k palestinian civilians fled and/or were expelled and the key issue is - their property was confiscated and they were not allowed to return home despite being very clear that they wanted to. the reason they were not allowed to return is it would have fucked up israels demographic requirements in order to ensure it could remain a jewish majority state. this is the foundation of the conflict today and why we've had no solution. 

[HarbularyBattery]

3 hours ago, RomanPer said:

Im pretty sure that if the first 2 options are truly implemented (and not considered by Palestinians as a temporary concession before trying to achieve their ultimate goal to get rid of all the Jews in that part of the world) than the Israeli part will be much easier to achieve.

 

i agree, and if the this offer with the conditions was made by Israel, its a whole lot easier for everyone to stand behind Israel (except for the antisemities and nazis of course, theyll always be themselves)

 

if that deal is offered and palestinians fuck it up/turn it down/fail to do their part, nobody can say that Israel hasn't done everything it can to actually address the root cause of palestinian anger. Israel not only reclaims the moral highground in the conflict, but they immediately win over the vast majority of palestinians who just want an opportunity to live safely and feed their kids

 

 

Edited June 13 by HarbularyBattery

[Taxi]

Just now, HarbularyBattery said:

 

we can debate the history of exactly what happened, there were terrorist attacks by Arabs on Jewish communities before 1948, and similarly there were terrorist attacks by Irgun and the like on Arabs before 1948, there was a ton of violence and a lot of the expulsion and flight happened before May 1948 when arab armies invaded. Jews who fled arab countries should be entitled to restitution as well if desired, and if they ever wanted to go back (though i cant imagine why they would) they should have the right to do so or at least be compensated for the confiscation of their property. 

 

Regardless of how it exactly came about, theres no dispute that 700k palestinian civilians fled and/or were expelled and the key issue is - their property was confiscated and they were not allowed to return home despite being very clear that they wanted to. the reason they were not allowed to return is it would have fucked up israels demographic requirements in order to ensure it could remain a jewish majority state. this is the foundation of the conflict today and why we've had no solution. 

Why do you keep stating that your the balanced one? You clearly have biases.

 

Yes Jews wanted to be in control of their own state, instead of being persecuted minorities in a Muslim state. Palestinians want their own state too. It's natural to want to control your own destiny, particularly when the other side has a brutal history of oppression. The foundation of the conflict is the war the Arabs started in 1948. If that war hadn't happened no one flees. Jews keep the land allocated to them in the UN partition plan, which was largely land they already owned.

[HarbularyBattery]

1 minute ago, Taxi said:

Why do you keep stating that your the balanced one? You clearly have biases.

 

Yes Jews wanted to be in control of their own state, instead of being persecuted minorities in a Muslim state. Palestinians want their own state too. It's natural to want to control your own destiny, particularly when the other side has a brutal history of oppression. The foundation of the conflict is the war the Arabs started in 1948. If that war hadn't happened no one flees. Jews keep the land allocated to them in the UN partition plan, which was largely land they already owned.

a lot happened before may 1948 that you either are just uninformed about or just dont care about. and thats just straight up bullshit that jews already owned all the land allocated in the partition plan. nobody who has taken more than 5 minutes to read the history disputes that huge parts of what would be allocated to Israel were villages and towns that were 90%+ Arab. 

 

blocked and muted, dont really have any interest in debating someone who so uninformed. 

 

Roman on the other hand clearly knows his history even if we disagree on some of the detials. 

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

a lot happened before may 1948 that you either are just uninformed about or just dont care about. and thats just straight up bullshit that jews already owned all the land allocated in the partition plan. nobody who has taken more than 5 minutes to read the history disputes that huge parts of what would be allocated to Israel were villages and towns that were 90%+ Arab. 

 

blocked and muted, dont really have any interest in debating someone who so uninformed. 

 

Roman on the other hand clearly knows his history even if we disagree on some of the detials. 

 

A lot did happen before 1948. Begins with "H" 

[HarbularyBattery]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

A lot did happen before 1948. Begins with "H" 

youll have to forgive me, i dont know what you mean. i am a very literal person, i usually dont understand insinuations even if they seem obvious to other people

[Taxi]

17 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

a lot happened before may 1948 that you either are just uninformed about or just dont care about. and thats just straight up bullshit that jews already owned all the land allocated in the partition plan. nobody who has taken more than 5 minutes to read the history disputes that huge parts of what would be allocated to Israel were villages and towns that were 90%+ Arab. 

 

blocked and muted, dont really have any interest in debating someone who so uninformed. 

 

Roman on the other hand clearly knows his history even if we disagree on some of the detials. 

 

Jews owned most of the land outside of the Nagev (which was and mostly is uninhabitable) that was allocated to them.  

 

Here's a map of what Jews owned:

 

 

H

 

Here's a map of the partition plan, notice any similarities? Most of the land in white was state owned. So Arabs were getting not only land they owned, but a huge amount of state owned land.

 

 

And yes, I'm quite familiar with the history beforehand. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Taxi said:

 

Jews owned most of the land outside of the Nagev (which was and mostly is uninhabitable) that was allocated to them.  

 

Here's a map of what Jews owned:

 

 

H

 

Here's a map of the partition plan, notice any similarities? Most of the land in white was state owned. So Arabs were getting not only land they owned, but a huge amount of state owned land.

 

 

And yes, I'm quite familiar with the history beforehand. 

Thanks for posting. 

[HarbularyBattery]

20 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

Jews owned most of the land outside of the Nagev (which was and mostly is uninhabitable) that was allocated to them.  

 

Here's a map of what Jews owned:

 

 

H

 

Here's a map of the partition plan, notice any similarities? Most of the land in white was state owned. So Arabs were getting not only land they owned, but a huge amount of state owned land.

 

 

And yes, I'm quite familiar with the history beforehand. 

Thats wild that you'd post an accurate map and then lie in the exact same sentence

 

The map shows the truth which is: Jewish owners legally owned 6.6% of the total land in 1947. 55% of the total land was allocated to Israel in the partition plan.

 

So yeah, back on ignore, not debating with someone who has no problem just making shit up for no reason.