Hamas attacking Israel

[Bob Long]

10 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Its related because its being ignored.  Which has a consequence, or consequences. It also has a root in this specific problem which makes it highly relevant.

 

Its speaks to the media, notably social media hype regarding extra importance to a solution for Palestinians. Specifically that the media storm has propagation by players with a stake in the conflict. Are happy that other conflicts take center stage.

 

Turkey is only one example; also happens to have ruled 'Palestine' for 550 or more of the last 700 odd years. Is happy to squish a Jewish play which has been gaining power over the last 80 years. While it is attempting to re-establish its own power base. Has in fact been committing the same crimes against Kurds on a much more systematic basis. Has displaced more Kurds since 2000 than the entire population of the West Bank & Gaza. There are Kurdish refugees from Iran also, Armenia. Who are expelled or leaving, but here not allowed to re-settle in other locations, parts of the historic Kurdistan. Now currently including Turkey bombing residential villages. 

 

The lack of media attention?  If 'they' can operate with anonymity? Operations have higher success. So mentioning alongside a similar conflict is important.  

 

More so, these acts in Islamic countries of expelling & subjugating minorities is endemic & highly related the overall reach for power. Countries like Turkey, Iran stay in power by getting rid of opposition. Just like smaller militant groups, Hamas, ISIS, Houthi, etc..

 

A consequence to this is Jews, Kurds, Palestinians, others, consolidate. Or become victim?

 

These are actually common tactics of Middle East power struggles. 

 

 

The media is the Jews fault, remember? 

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

The media is the Jews fault, remember? 

 

Look?

 

There is the school of thought to isolate crimes. Then quote / unquote prosecute them.  Its the essence of justice systems. There is plenty of crime being done, damage anyway, by Israel. Right now lots of people want that to stop. Its not an unfair view. 

 

I look at it like gang warfare. With lots of gangs; big and small. That there is turf or bad blood being contested ultimately becomes, is , motive. Always needed towards convictions. Investigation...  Who is killing who always has a reason. You cannot ignore part of it just because one side is screaming louder.  

 

I look at it like you won't stop gang wars without investigating all gangs contributing. 

 

 

[HarbularyBattery]

8 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Its related because its being ignored.  Which has a consequence, or consequences. It also has a root in this specific problem which makes it highly relevant.

 

Its speaks to the media, notably social media hype regarding extra importance to a solution for Palestinians. Specifically that the media storm has propagation by players with a stake in the conflict. Are happy that other conflicts take center stage.

 

Turkey is only one example; also happens to have ruled 'Palestine' for 550 or more of the last 700 odd years. Is happy to squish a Jewish play which has been gaining power over the last 80 years. While it is attempting to re-establish its own power base. Has in fact been committing the same crimes against Kurds on a much more systematic basis. Has displaced more Kurds since 2000 than the entire population of the West Bank & Gaza. There are Kurdish refugees from Iran also, Armenia. Who are expelled or leaving, but here not allowed to re-settle in other locations, parts of the historic Kurdistan. Now currently including Turkey bombing residential villages. 

 

The lack of media attention?  If 'they' can operate with anonymity? Operations have higher success. So mentioning alongside a similar conflict is important.  

 

More so, these acts in Islamic countries of expelling & subjugating minorities is endemic & highly related the overall reach for power. Countries like Turkey, Iran stay in power by getting rid of opposition. Just like smaller militant groups, Hamas, ISIS, Houthi, etc..

 

A consequence to this is Jews, Kurds, Palestinians, others, consolidate. Or become victim?

 

These are actually common tactics of Middle East power struggles. 

 

 

I think your premise though needs to be challenged here

 

The underlying premise is this conflict gets more attention because the media prioritizes the Palestinians over other conflicts, some of which include far worse crimes being committed which comes from an inherent double standard people (maybe they hate Jews or something). 

 

If that were true, this media storm wouldn't have hit us for the first time on October 7. Western media has not prioritized Palestinians whatsoever over the past 2 decades. For many in the west, October 7 was the first exposure they had to a 100 year long conflict. 

 

theres a lot of reasons why some conflicts and movements get more attention than others, i think immediacy/recency + relatability of one of the involved parties + being personally involved e.g. your government being complicit in the injustice + situation that is easy for the media to sensationlize + extremely bipolar conflicts

 

think about other conflicts and situations that sparked huge protests and media coverage in the west

 

- Iraq War (immediacy + people knew people who were being sent to fight + it was western governments committing that injustice)

- BLM (immediacy + deep relatability)

- Vietnam

- Gun control marches

- anti abortion marches

 

Probably the single biggest factor causing these protests to be so large while people speak very little about Turkey is how bipolar this one is, like the others on my list. With Israel/Palestine, you have two VERY emotionally charged sides as evidenced by this thread. Im willing to bet if you asked 100 random people if they support the Turkish government oppressing the Kurds, youd get near 100 all saying they dont. So why would people get riled up and protest? All their friends, families, etc. all agree, if they are even aware at all. 

 

Now all of that was true even before Oct 7. So why did these protests kick off then specifically? 

 

See my point about recency. People protest about specific things that are happening this minute. Things that happened a week ago are already old news. Want proof of that? Where are all the BLM protests right now? Nonexistent because theres no immediate catalyst, like there was when it all kicked off (murder of George Floyd). 

 

My guess is people would protest for Kurdish rights with the same intensity as the Palestine protests if all of the following were true:

1. They were involved in it (e.g. their government was giving weapons to Turkey specifically to fight against the PKK)

2. A significant catalyst happened right now (The PKK launched a huge attack on Turkey with 1000+ casualties, or vice versa)

3. There was bitter disagreement in peoples classrooms, communities, and homes (half of people support the turkish government, half support the Kurds)

 

 

Edited July 11 by HarbularyBattery

[Canuck Surfer]

6 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

My guess is people would protest for Kurdish rights with the same intensity as the Palestine protests if all of the following were true

 

In our lifetime; nearly 5000 Kurds were killed in a day with gas attacks in Iraq. Outright genocide.  

 

That the PKK is less brutal than, say, Hamas, is no reason to be selectively less outraged.

 

Hamas, Hezbollah, PKK and other Kurdish groups, Turkey, as well as the US, Russia were all direct and indirect combatants in Syria's civil war. As well as ISIS, Iran and other groups with ideology contributing to why Hamas is directly supported.  Which killed almost ten times as many civilians as has occurred in the current Gaza conflict. This is conservative as some estimates are as high as 600,000 with 1/2 Syrian residents permanently displaced. This occurred in the last ten years & the obliteration of Aleppo ended up, although it took longer on a similar scale to Gaza.

 

 

 

On 28 June 2022, the United Nations Human Rights Office (OHCHR) stated that at least 306,887 civilians had been killed in Syria during the conflict between March 2011 and March 2021, representing about 1.5% of its pre-war population. This figure did not include indirect and non-civilian deaths.

 

This is all part of the same regional conflict by the same combatants. The same militant groups trained in the same ideological control of populations, just 100 or 200 kilometers away from the West bank & Beirut! Which is also in a state of not completely passive civil war. Lebanon in a state of serial political breakdown after being a healthy functioning society as recently as the 70's and early 80's. Where factions of Hamas & Hezbollah were both trained for & participated. Where their leaders soaked in hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars in weapon sales, tax free black markets including the trade routes and suppliers now used in Gaza. People smuggling, drug sales, provision of mercenaries, even sex slaves. All which contributed to the ethnic cleansing for militant smaller groups to ascend to their current positions of power. All which help fund and supply the current conflict militant groups.    

 

Whom now want their 'justified' claim to Palestinian soil. These are not elected democratic officials running legitimized administrations and peaceful civilian life.

 

My opinion is you are absolutely delusional as to the contributions of such sources to the conflict. Its all the same conflict recycling.

 

 

 

The answer to one of your points is these groups started first infiltrating then taking over education and propaganda machines.  Hamas in the 1980's. The Muslim Brotherhood in the 30's and forties nearly 100 years ago. Then exporting their message overseas including in America, Europe, SE Asia. Each starting as aid and education, in the name of their religious beliefs. Then morphing to militant and where possible political control. All with the same tactics, message. Bin Laden, the leaders of Hamas, started as members of the Muslim Brotherhood. 

 

A second; Turkey is doing, more or less what Israel under Netanyahu & his coalition was doing. Using the malaise of terrorist activity and civil upheaval to sneak in stealing land & disposing of rivals. Letting them stir endlessly without legitimate governments just extends the opportunity, sell to their public they are just fending off militants.

 

Both are the same fucking thing waiting for an Oct 7 moment. 

 

The solutions are to help groups like Palestinians & Kurds, not leave them to be overridden by militant groups. Or wiped out.

[HarbularyBattery]

20 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

In our lifetime; nearly 5000 Kurds were killed in a day with gas attacks in Iraq. Outright genocide.  

 

That the PKK is less brutal than, say, Hamas, is no reason to be selectively less outraged.

 

Hamas, Hezbollah, PKK and other Kurdish groups, Turkey, as well as the US, Russia were all direct and indirect combatants in Syria's civil war. As well as ISIS, Iran and other groups with ideology contributing to why Hamas is directly supported.  Which killed almost ten times as many civilians as has occurred in the current Gaza conflict. This is conservative as some estimates are as high as 600,000 with 1/2 Syrian residents permanently displaced. This occurred in the last ten years & the obliteration of Aleppo ended up, although it took longer on a similar scale to Gaza.

 

 

 

On 28 June 2022, the United Nations Human Rights Office (OHCHR) stated that at least 306,887 civilians had been killed in Syria during the conflict between March 2011 and March 2021, representing about 1.5% of its pre-war population. This figure did not include indirect and non-civilian deaths.

 

This is all part of the same regional conflict by the same combatants. The same militant groups trained in the same ideological control of populations, just 100 or 200 kilometers away from the West bank & Beirut! Which is also in a state of not completely passive civil war. Lebanon in a state of serial political breakdown after being a healthy functioning society as recently as the 70's and early 80's. Where factions of Hamas & Hezbollah were both trained for & participated. Where their leaders soaked in hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars in weapon sales, tax free black markets including the trade routes and suppliers now used in Gaza. People smuggling, drug sales, provision of mercenaries, even sex slaves. All which contributed to the ethnic cleansing for militant smaller groups to ascend to their current positions of power. All which help fund and supply the current conflict militant groups.    

 

Whom now want their 'justified' claim to Palestinian soil. These are not elected democratic officials running legitimized administrations and peaceful civilian life.

 

My opinion is you are absolutely delusional as to the contributions of such sources to the conflict. Its all the same conflict recycling.

 

 

 

The answer to one of your points is these groups started first infiltrating then taking over education and propaganda machines.  Hamas in the 1980's. The Muslim Brotherhood in the 30's and forties nearly 100 years ago. Then exporting their message overseas including in America, Europe, SE Asia. Each starting as aid and education, in the name of their religious beliefs. Then morphing to militant and where possible political control. All with the same tactics, message. Bin Laden, the leaders of Hamas, started as members of the Muslim Brotherhood. 

 

A second; Turkey is doing, more or less what Israel under Netanyahu & his coalition was doing. Using the malaise of terrorist activity and civil upheaval to sneak in stealing land & disposing of rivals. Letting them stir endlessly without legitimate governments just extends the opportunity, sell to their public they are just fending off militants.

 

Both are the same fucking thing waiting for an Oct 7 moment. 

 

The solutions are to help groups like Palestinians & Kurds, not leave them to be overridden by militant groups. Or wiped out.

I think youre misunderstanding me. Im not arguing that the Palestinian conflict is more worthy than the others you've mentioned. I agree with you that our outrage SHOULD be proportional. I think its completely fucking bonkers that the entire world gave more media attention, thoughts and prayers, and monetary resources to the lives of 5 billionaires on a submarine than the conflicts you mentioned + all of the other horrible human tragedies unfolding this moment. 

 

Im telling you that people dont show up for the Kurds and they dont show up for the Syrians like they did for the Iraqis and for the Palestinians because of how the nature of these conflicts can create, or not create, visceral reactions in people. theres a specific concoction of factors that creates outrage, and its NEVER been fair or proportional. Thats not new. Thats old. Mao killed between 40-80 million civilians. Hitler killed somewhere between 12-16 million. Yet what Hitler did creates a FAR more visceral reaction in most (i know it does in me). Is that racism against chinese people? Well no its not. Its a combination of: the truly grotesque ideology of Hitler and the Nazis, its his speeches and the way he talked about people he was exterminating, and probably MOST importantly its because in the here and now the antisemitism that fueled hitler exists and is everywhere we turn. 

 

So why is Palestine/Israel evoking more outrage and protest than the other conflicts? Again, im telling you its not because people hate the Jews. Its because of the unique concoction of conflict dynamics that i referenced in my last post - the immediacy of the catalyst AND the personal connection to the conflict AND the fact that there is a bitter bipolar-ness to this one, where ordinary people can find themselves in both camps. Go talk to 500 random people in Vancouver, probably 50% see themselves as pro israel, the other 50% see themselves as pro palestinian. If you applied that to syria, or turkey - how many here in the west would see themselves as "pro assad"? or "pro erdogan"? Guessing almost none. neither of those conflicts creates chaos at christmas dinner. Know what does/did? Palestine/Israel. Gay Rights. Gun control. The Iraq War. the vietnam war. 

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, HarbularyBattery said:

I agree with you that our outrage SHOULD be proportional.

 

Fair enough & thanks for the reply. Its a very reasonable answer.

 

But while Iran and Turkey are backing Hezbollah / Hamas. While its the same network, source of training, information, funding. Same allied militants and countries trying to seize more power.  They need to be discussed as common subject matter. Here and everywhere else. As mentioned above; there is a common thread to almost all ME & even surrounding conflicts.  Its not Israel as much as the backlash is disproportionate.

 

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

The solutions are to help groups like Palestinians & Kurds, not leave them to be overridden by militant groups. Or wiped out.

 

Not to leave minorities overridden, almost slaves to militant groups who do not represent them.  I am arguing Turkey, Israel and other countries need to treat minorities, even ones neighboring countries, as co-habitants. 

 

Islamic fanaticism. The quest for power by militants and countries remains the bigger problem in the region, IMO.  Turkey ticks both of those boxes.   

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

This is all about the effort to use Universities, education to turn popular opinion. Mirrors exactly the feedback I received and provided regarding Muslim brotherhood influencing the Egyptian revolution when I visited.  Which has been copied by Islamic militants.

 

''They hijacked our revolution! We were so naive, so young and naive. We believed they were the only organized group on the ground'' (to help).  

 

''The same rhetoric that is now used in American universities, Canadian universities.'' 

 

* Chairperson Liberal Democracy Institute.

https://www.egyldi.org/daliaziada

https://stockton.edu/events/2024/dalia-ziada-lecture.html

 

To quote my own contact who participated in the revolution? ''Then they took over. Enforcing how we could live, what were required to do, everything!''

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[HarbularyBattery]

10 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Fair enough & thanks for the reply. Its a very reasonable answer.

 

But while Iran and Turkey are backing Hezbollah / Hamas. While its the same network, source of training, information, funding. Same allied militants and countries trying to seize more power.  They need to be discussed as common subject matter. Here and everywhere else. As mentioned above; there is a common thread to almost all ME & even surrounding conflicts.  Its not Israel as much as the backlash is disproportionate.

 

 

Not to leave minorities overridden, almost slaves to militant groups who do not represent them.  I am arguing Turkey, Israel and other countries need to treat minorities, even ones neighboring countries, as co-habitants. 

 

Islamic fanaticism. The quest for power by militants and countries remains the bigger problem in the region, IMO.  Turkey ticks both of those boxes.   

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Fair enough & thanks for the reply. Its a very reasonable answer.

 

But while Iran and Turkey are backing Hezbollah / Hamas. While its the same network, source of training, information, funding. Same allied militants and countries trying to seize more power.  They need to be discussed as common subject matter. Here and everywhere else. As mentioned above; there is a common thread to almost all ME & even surrounding conflicts.  Its not Israel as much as the backlash is disproportionate.

 

 

Not to leave minorities overridden, almost slaves to militant groups who do not represent them.  I am arguing Turkey, Israel and other countries need to treat minorities, even ones neighboring countries, as co-habitants. 

 

Islamic fanaticism. The quest for power by militants and countries remains the bigger problem in the region, IMO.  Turkey ticks both of those boxes.   

 

 

 

I had a great poli sci professor in university that opened my eyes to how the availability of extractable resources plays a huge role in the type of government and non-government organizations that pop up, and how they use their power.

 

basically the thesis was - when an ultra concentrated resource exists, you get militaristic organizations and warlordism. they get their power from their ability to extract and defend their resource (see Saudi government, warlords in Congo, taliban with opium as examples)

 

when theres no such resource, or if resources are more dispersed, you get organizations that incentivize submission and collaboration - running protection rackets while filling public service gaps, like the Medellin cartel, and Hamas for most of its history. They rely on popularity among their subjects to survive

 

we're way more easily fooled by the second type of organization. Propaganda that gets right to the heart of the grievance felt by young people is key to these organizations survival, because they usually need volunteers, they cant easily force an entire population to do their bidding. Ultimately the goal of these organizations is what it is for all organizations, to survive, and theyll quickly adapt from tactic to tactic to ensure that survival (FARC for a long time provided "alternative government services" to people ignored by the columbian government, and when their resources and recruits ran dry, pivoted to kidnapping and extreme violence to raise funds). 

 

the reason the propaganda is so powerful is because aside from drawing on things people are already feeling, it will often be rooted in a real grievance. The Looming Tower gave a fascinating description of Osama Bin Laden's childhood. His family was absurdly wealthy, western educated, etc. It recounts some of the earliest moments of his radicalization, one of which was one of his relatives (aunt i think?) saw him sobbing in front of the tv in his teens watching a news report about Palestine/Israel. 

 

grievances if left untreated are like wounds, they fester and become infected and can become the basis for an entire ugly evil violent machine. then once theyve been successfully exploited and you have evil with power, they refuse to let it go. 

 

and it doesnt help that every country in the world is simply acting in its own self interest. these organizations make themselves useful to governments and other non state actors in order to get funding. the saudi royal family embraces radical wahabism as an ideology, they have appointed one of the most backward, horrible grand muftis, whose radical and evil ideology is pushed all through saudi arabias mosques and schools. its well known that saudi arabia is the origin for many of the terrorist attacks that have been conducted on western soil. the fact that we not only do business with these people but actively protect them and keep them in power with weapons deals, etc. is insane, and until western foreign policy is conducted on the basis of righteousness rather than pure political realism, we have no chance of getting rid of this scourge. 

[Canuck Surfer]

9 hours ago, HarbularyBattery said:

you get organizations that incentivize submission and collaboration - running protection rackets while filling public service gaps, like the Medellin cartel, and Hamas for most of its history.

 

This is spot on in relation to Hamas! I'll mention Egypt below, again arguing its a regional thing.

 

9 hours ago, HarbularyBattery said:

we're way more easily fooled by the second type of organization. Propaganda that gets right to the heart of the grievance felt by young people is key to these organizations survival, because they usually need volunteers,

 

Correct again.   And as discussed by yourself & my posts, video's.  Specifically where I, you have as well mentioning Mosque's schools & many parts of cultural cultural identity like events, identified the education that was injected across not only Arabic universities, but Western ones as well. Where the grievance can be (is) real, yet many are naive as to whether those providing the propaganda. An easy example is the video by Dalia Zaida above; just linked vs embed here  https://youtu.be/XzbHhenDVpk.

 

Dalia & the (educated) people I met in Egypt did not just volunteer. Participated in revolution resulting in the Muslim Brotherhood taking power.  Finding out quickly participating driven by grievance regarding Mubarek & his corruption? Did not mean those who grabbed power represented them better. Its highly sensitive to circumstance!  Educated and aware people realized quickly how their freedoms were taken away. The poor in Egypt still identify much more closely with the cultural programming provided through the Mosque's, etc, etc..

 

The poor, just after revolution? Were quickly at community feeds, and supplies provided by the Brotherhood. When govt. was not available. When a job was offered, as long as you paid cash tolls, even a place to live if you were doing tasks (specifically) like garbage collection. As you mentioned, recruitment by replacing govt services. Then kids grow up in the same cultural programming; become militant foot soldiers (like Hamas). Educated and poor hate the death being rained on Gazan's. Educated also understand the role where poor are taken advantage of; equally disgusted by programmed / indoctrinated fanatics did Oct 7 while the poor cheered it on!

 

10 hours ago, HarbularyBattery said:

then once theyve been successfully exploited and you have evil with power, they refuse to let it go. 

 

Here is where Jordan was fascinating!

 

The educated are part of the ruling class. Have no reason to reject the Hashemite Kingdom. The Kings family by DNA is not Palestinian, and by background their version of religion's dialect still more closely associated with Turkic not Arabic Sunni muslims. Effectively the Royal family a minority still dating to when ancestors appointed them in Ottoman times. Before they aligned with colonial Britain strategically. The ruling class Arabic with the King a figurehead. A point well known in the Arabic world.

 

Here is a 'educational' video produced, very sophisticated, effectively calling for Palestinian people in Jordan to rise against the ruling party. Without mentioning it.

 

Its almost as good an explanatory video, and historically accurate including the maps, regarding partition arrangements as I have seen. Why the Nakba actually was in part participated in by Jordan & Arabic leaders.  @RomanPer would be interested, and has commented on something I will mention below the video.  Accurate, but 100% Arabic spin of how all transpired as to what Israel calls its wars of independence, not the Nakba widely propagated today.

 

 

As early as 1914 Jordans leadership conspired with the British.  To create, they all say its for 'their' people, an Arabic / Palestinian kingdom free from Ottoman rule. Its worth mentioning, the video is clear early on, and as it was executed after WWII, it was felt partition would result in 100% Arabic control.  The partition plan itself still had a Jewish component.  Call them Zionists, but Jewish representation also had agreements to help found a Jewish state surrounding & there was an ''international zone!''

 

Everything was a British / Jordanian (King) sell out.   

 

 

 

What has been widely reported, but hidden in the Arabic world. Not included in the video. Alluded to is Jordan helped move many of the Nakba residents. 

 

The fake independence war for Israel, was not just Jordan. Egypt, Iraq, the Saudi's, even Sudanese participated. Jordan took its share, Their plan, no doubt, was to completely wipe out the Zionist nation.  Rule it all as an 'Arabic' country. If the displaced people were Arabic, they were displaced because the large allied Arabic forces were then unsuccessful. 

 

The video says Jordan is still a surrogate of Britain & the US.  Not representing Arabic interests.  

 

What I would suggest is Jordan has been strategically successful in its partnering. Does have a peace deal with Israel.  Staggering amounts of US foreign aid to help buy this allegiance.  The Middle Class however? Have amazing benefit from these relationships.

 

Live better than many middle class in Mississippi, maybe not Calgary. Currency is above the US & Canadian dollar.  The middle class and average Jordanian are Arabic, Sunni Muslim & do receive the same programming most do?  To a man they jumped on the chance to meet and discuss politics with me. Israel is genocide, Gaza a prison, the war 'justified.' 

 

But none of them, as they live well, are interested in going to war themselves.  Unlike under Hamas, there is no allegiance bought by giving them food, a job.  They have lived more peacefully than most Israelis who have bomb shelters, mandatory service, experienced war and damage within their own families.  

 

[Canuck Surfer]

71 dead, 300 injured in a safe zone.

 

Mohammed Deif or not; this is not protecting citizens. 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

18 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Mohammed Deif or not;

 

This report says not...

 

Did ''get'' a Rafah Salama, a brigade commander. 

 

Here is the thing.  Deif is considered one of the worlds three or four most wanted terrorists.  Lets say hypothetically this was Vlad Putin? Or Netanyahu in an Arabic equivalent.

 

Morale question; Would it be ok to detonate a large weapon in to a crowd?  In a safe zone.    

 

 

My answer is no, they cannot do this.  I was conflicted a few weeks ago when they hit a small armoury in Rafah. With a small weapon.  Then the armoury exploded and similar casualties spread to a nearby but separated safe zone.  If they say it is a safe zone, it has to be a safe zone. Here there is no grey area.

[Taxi]

16 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

This report says not...

 

Did ''get'' a Rafah Salama, a brigade commander. 

 

Here is the thing.  Deif is considered one of the worlds three or four most wanted terrorists.  Lets say hypothetically this was Vlad Putin? Or Netanyahu in an Arabic equivalent.

 

Morale question; Would it be ok to detonate a large weapon in to a crowd?  In a safe zone.    

 

 

My answer is no, they cannot do this.  I was conflicted a few weeks ago when they hit a small armoury in Rafah. With a small weapon.  Then the armoury exploded and similar casualties spread to a nearby but separated safe zone.  If they say it is a safe zone, it has to be a safe zone. Here there is no grey area.

 

I don't get why Hamas has to up the evil on everything they do. They can't just hold hostages. It needs to be in a civilian area in the homes of a doctor and a reporter. Deif has to set up his base in the middle of a safe zone surrounded by as many civilians as possible. 

 

Edited July 15 by Taxi

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

I don't get why Hamas has to up the evil on everything they do. 

 

 

because they are evil. 

[Canuck Surfer]

43 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

I don't get why Hamas has to up the evil on everything they do. They can't just hold hostages. It needs to be in a civilian area in the homes of a doctor and a reporter. Deif has to set up his base in the middle of a safe zone surrounded by as many civilians as possible. 

 

 

Yeah I get that.

 

My personal view; 

 

Pre Oct 7 and Post Oct 7.

* Israel is the, vastly, wealthier 1st world nation.

* Needs to hold itself to a higher standard.

* As high a standard legally as possible.

* While many disagree, there would be one hundred thousand, two hundred thousand casualties if there was not 'some' restraint.

* Too many like this where the dead are in a safe zone, in a retreat corridor, care workers targeted, journalists

* I agreed with safety zones in West Bank.

* I did not agree with new settlements in safety zones.

* Could (have to) do a better job of security for all & be transparent.

* Security just for 'settlers' is gross. 

* For all I know (?), a journalist could in fact be operatives?

* Disclosure and accountability are huge factors. 

* As is ensuring rich conservative Jews do not end up owning cheap land.

* I view many activities as seriously abusive, illegal.

 

The more serious deviation is militant led, and enforced, groups leading defacto countries.

 

* West Bank one discussion, Gaza not the same.

* Israel left in 2006.

* Hamas immediately, as they took over,  full frontal attacked which they lost.

* Continued with terrorist plots, missiles from rooftops etc..

* Oct 7 the epitome of gross, hostages inclusive.

* Promised to continue.; do it again, and again.

* Probably won't end until Palestinians take up arms; hand over militants in their mix

* Probably won't end until historic value sites for different cultures keep disappearing

* Probably won't end, more importantly, until people not of the same ethnic background keep disappearing

 

I view Hamas as ethnic cleansing, Israel of abusing Palestinians under the guise of terrorist cleansing.

 

 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Speaking to the complexity of issues in the ME?

 

That militant groups are looking for their piece of the pie, regardless of whether Jewish, Arabic, Persian, African, Christian, Islamic... In this case targeting Shia Muslims, some of the dead Pakistani.  Calling Shia Muslims heretics according to the article. The enemy of my enemy is still not my friend!

 

Iran, Israel, Russia, the US, S.Arabia, Turkey & Egypt were all happy to see the backside of ISIS in Syria, Iraq.  Each preferring their own tentacles of influence rather than this militant group.  But here ISIS is, attacking in Oman just south of Dubai and on the SE corner of the Saudi Kingdom. Oman normally relatively stable due to its oil wealth.

 

 

ISIS Mass shooting of Muslims in Muscat

 

The Isis militant group has claimed responsibility for the killing of at least nine people in a rare attack on a Shia mosque in the wealthy Gulf state of Oman.

About 28 others also sustained injuries late on Monday when several gunmen stormed into the Ali bin Abi Talib mosque in the Wadi al-Kabir neighbourhood of the capital Muscat, located around 500 metres from an international school.

 

Four Pakistanis, an Indian national and a police officer were among those killed in the gun attack, the authorities said.

 

The Sunni extremist group claimed responsibility on Tuesday through an affiliated news agency, without providing evidence. It represents the first time Isis has purported to be behind an attack in Oman, where only 5 per cent of Muslims are believed to belong to the Shia sect.

 

A video showed a crowd running for cover inside the mosque as gunmen opened fire on believers gathered on the eve of Ashura — an annual period of mourning, where Shia Muslims commemorate the martyrdom of the Prophet Muhammad’s grandson, Imam Hussein, and his 72 companions in the battle of Karbala in the seventh century in present-day Iraq.

 

Believers could be heard crying "Oh god" and "Oh Hussein" as gunshots rang out in the background.

 

“There were nearly 500-600 people in the courtyard when we first heard sounds that resembled fireworks,” an unnamed Pakistani expatriate told Times of Oman.

 

The firing continued for more than an hour and a half as everyone tried to rush inside the mosque, the eyewitness recalled.

 

“We were instructed to stay silent in the hall. In that moment of despair, I messaged my friend, thinking I might not live to see the dawn. Death seemed imminent.

 

“We felt like hostages for nearly two-three hours before ROP (Royal Oman Police) officers finally made their way into the building,” he added.

The extremist group said three of its "suicide attackers" fired on visitors to the mosque on Monday evening and exchanged gunfire with Omani security forces until morning. It said the gunmen attacked a gathering of Shia Muslims who were "practising their annual rituals".

Police in Oman have not said whether they have identified a motive for the attack or made any arrests.

 

Pakistan identified four of the dead as its citizens. "This is a very unprecedented event ... the likes of it we have not seen in Oman's history," Pakistan's ambassador to Muscat, Imran Ali, said after visiting some victims in hospital.

 

Pakistan's prime minister Shehbaz Sharif offered condolences and "instructed the Pakistan embassy in Muscat to extend all possible assistance to the injured". "Pakistan stands in solidarity with the Sultanate of Oman and offers full assistance in the investigation," he added.

Nearly two million migrants, mostly from South Asia, help power Oman's economy by filling low-skilled jobs in construction and other fields.

 

The US embassy in Muscat issued a security alert following the shooting and asked its citizens to remain vigilant and monitor local news.

Analysts described the rare shooting as the latest example of Isis returning to carrying out random international attacks after losing its fief in Iraq and Syria.

 

"It makes them more resilient in some ways," Aaron Y Zelin, a senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, told the Associated Press. "It's part of their reorganisation from being a group with most of its actions in Iraq and Syria to using their resources in a global network."

 

Isis have long targeted Shia Muslims in their violent attacks and propaganda, describing them as heretics. The group claimed responsibility for an attack in Shia-majority Iran that killed 84 people in January.

 

In March, the group said it was behind an attack that killed more than 140 people at a concert hall near Moscow.

 

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[Canuck Surfer]

20 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

But here ISIS is, attacking in Oman

 

Checking my memory; ISIS has also contributed much larger attacks in Afghanistan for something like 150 dead. And the big attack in that Moscow mall they tried to blame on Ukraine.  Which killed over 200. Both this year which tells how big the splits between groups does exist.

 

Predominantly the US and Kurds fighting against ISIS control in the Syrian civil war, with Russia / Iran backing Asaad also happy to kill them off to gain what control Asaad has.  Syria right next door in the Golan Heights has seen even Ukrainian  special forces sneak attacking Wagner and Russian troops accumulating this month. Russia looking to back Syria, and Hezbollah as the Israeli / Hezbollah chances of war escalate dramatically.  

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Apparently a Houthi drone slipped through?  1 Dead...

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Interesting video?  A word play on Hillel Neuer silencing Arab critics of Israel at the UN.

 

Some fact check issues & some realities.  In constitution Al Jazeera presents that Arabs' are not doing enough to help Gazans!

 

 

In spite of a common sense of identity. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Gross, not just in intent...
 

 

[Gurn]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/top-un-court-says-israel-s-presence-in-occupied-palestinian-territories-is-illegal-and-should-end/ar-BB1qfZ8t?bncnt=BroadcastNews_TopStories&ocid=UCPNC2&FORM=BNC001&pc=U531&cvid=db62198dc3544cc381b43f6f188ce88b&ei=12

"THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — The top U.N. court ruled Friday that Israel's presence in the Palestinian occupied territories is “unlawful” and called on it to end, pointing to the building and expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, and east Jerusalem, its annexation and imposition of permanent control over lands and discriminatory policies against Palestinians.

 

The International Court of Justice was issuing a non-binding opinion on the legality of Israel’s 57-year occupation of lands sought for a Palestinian state, and the ruling is likely to have more effect on international opinion than it will on Israeli policies.

The court's panel of 15 judges from around the world said Israel has abused its status as the occupying power in the West Bank and east Jerusalem by carrying out policies of annexing territory, imposing permanent control and building settlements. It said Israel must end settlement construction immediately.

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