Hamas attacking Israel

[Bob Long]

On 7/25/2024 at 9:07 AM, RomanPer said:

 

Unfortunately, burning the US flag has been protected by 1st amendment and upheld by the Supreme Court (freedom of speech). As for not arresting for vandalism - it's primarily due to Washington, DC being a weird place with most of the places being under federal jurisdiction. Which means, local police has no jurisdiction to arrest for any crime committed on the federal ground. The only hope is the facial recognition.

 

It's also easy access. I've been to DC a couple of times and it would be hard to keep any of the monument areas locked down, it would be really easy to run around and do stupid crap like this.

 

Whoever did this are morons, that didn't help any "side". 

[RomanPer]

Where is all the “All eyes on Gaza” crowd now? Strangely quiet and their eyes are shut to Majdal Shams… Fucking hypocrites.

 

But when Israel starts obliterating Hezbollah in South Lebanon, their eyes will open again…

[RWMc1]

 

Edited July 28 by RWMc1

[Sapper]

With Iranian supplied missles causing deaths the risk of Israel declaring it an act of war is real

 

We are one oops or one errant fired shot away from all out war in the Middle East 

 

The next 72 hours will be crucial for Iranian allies to step in and tell them to walk it back asap 

 

 

 

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Sapper said:

With Iranian supplied missles causing deaths the risk of Israel declaring it an act of war is real

 

We are one oops or one errant fired shot away from all out war in the Middle East 

 

The next 72 hours will be crucial for Iranian allies to step in and tell them to walk it back asap 

 

 

 

 

Too late. Hezbollah’s ass is next.

[Bob Long]

15 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Too late. Hezbollah’s ass is next.

 

Seems to be what they want.

[RWMc1]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Bearing in mind I have also called Israel out.  Asking they start to police, call to justice? Settler groups who terrorized Palestinians. The military, politicians...

 

Here, its the UK, an influential cleric who helped radicalize individuals. Connects them with networks that have proven to commit acts of terror in the UK & abroad was arrested. Now convicted. Is an ongoing threat. Choudry has been doing this a long time.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Long term this is what Gazans must do with their terrorists. Short term, commit to this! 

 

    

[Canuck Surfer]

Rape in this narrative, as a war tactic, is an ultimate impulse of control designed to humiliate.  A byproduct of honour & shame beliefs in some Arabic/ Muslim circles. Gross!

 

It was not just women ''shamed'' by rape. Not only rape, cutting off sexual body parts, scarring, mutilation. Being shot in the genitals and left to die. Humiliation is viewed as payback. In these circumstances 'honourable.' While this is a widely held belief, its culturally hard to eliminate. Blood lust leaves followers exalted as such reports arrive. 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

Hezbollah claims to be 200,000 strong in its manpower, none the less, they have no chance of winning an all out war with Israel. Lebanon will likely lose its two southern most provinces as a new 'buffer zone' if war actually breaks out fully. The city of Tyre and coastline above it may be allowed to be habitatable, but I don't see Israel playing around with over 100,000 Hezbollah in the south and east of Lebanon. If Israel hits back it will be like Canadian infantry doctrine: overwhelm the opposition with speed and violence. 

 

Iran is the overwhelming issue here, there and everywhere, as Hezbollah don't really speak for Lebanon, but Beirut has allowed them to flourish and by not stopping their random rocket assaults, invites what is almost now inevitable. 

 

Sad times. I hope it is a swift victory for the IDF in the north. 

[Gurn]

Today's John Oliver's "Last Week Tonight" was about the West Bank.

HBO is showing it again in about an hour.

[Babych]

15 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Rape in this narrative, as a war tactic, is an ultimate impulse of control designed to humiliate.  A byproduct of honour & shame beliefs in some Arabic/ Muslim circles. Gross!

 

It was not just women ''shamed'' by rape. Not only rape, cutting off sexual body parts, scarring, mutilation. Being shot in the genitals and left to die. Humiliation is viewed as payback. In these circumstances 'honourable.' While this is a widely held belief, its culturally hard to eliminate. Blood lust leaves followers exalted as such reports arrive. 

 

 

idk about this, brother. To me, attributing this to some cultural beliefs hits wrongly.. maybe bc I’ve been living in the uae and have had very positive experiences there.

 

Sadly, rape/torture/humiliation/etc has been common in most conflicts. The US committed huge atrocities in Vietnam.. I have a good friend - Serbian - that has told

me horror stories about what people did to each other. They don’t come from a culture of shame and honour, yet still performed acts just as bad, or worse, than what we’re seeing now. 
 

I struggle when I see bad behaviour attributed to cultural norms. I think it’s lazy and misleading. I think some people are just born wrong, and will behave horribly in certain situations.

 

Edit: apologies if I took what you said out of context;)

Edited July 29 by Babych

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

Hezbollah claims to be 200,000 strong in its manpower, none the less, they have no chance of winning an all out war with Israel. Lebanon will likely lose its two southern most provinces as a new 'buffer zone' if war actually breaks out fully. The city of Tyre and coastline above it may be allowed to be habitatable, but I don't see Israel playing around with over 100,000 Hezbollah in the south and east of Lebanon. If Israel hits back it will be like Canadian infantry doctrine: overwhelm the opposition with speed and violence. 

 

Iran is the overwhelming issue here, there and everywhere, as Hezbollah don't really speak for Lebanon, but Beirut has allowed them to flourish and by not stopping their random rocket assaults, invites what is almost now inevitable. 

 

Sad times. I hope it is a swift victory for the IDF in the north. 

 

Because this is just about a military operation, and you have experience in these matters, I will debate this point with.

 

I could give a more detailed account however I will quote the last paragraph from this Britianica article.

The online version of the encyclopaedia Britianica.

 

This article is about the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah.

 

https://www.britannica.com/event/2006-Lebanon-War

 

" Hezbollah's ability to fight the IDF to a standstill - a feat no other Arab militia had accomplished - allowed it to claim victory at home and emerge as heroes throughout the Arab world. "

 

So as you can see, Hezbollah has already done something that  no other Arabian military force has been able to do, fight the IDF to a standstill.

 

While the IDF is a superior fighting force, has the backing of the US and will control the skies, it won't be easy as they will be fighting a war on two fronts.

In Gaza, and on their northern border. 

 

What I also find strange is that Hezbollah denied that missile strike.

They have never been backwards in coming forwards in regards to claiming responsibility for missile strikes before. 

 

And what everyone seems to be forgetting is that the Golan Heights is land that is occupied/was annexed by Israel. 

Again the hypocrisy of those condemning Russia for annexing Ukrainian territory, while failing to condemn Isreal for annexing Palestinian land is BS.

 

And just to be clear, the obvious has to be stated in this thread, I condemn Hezbollah for its attacks on Isreal.

And Iran for supplying the weapons that enable them to do this.

 

Also my thoughts are with the families of the children who were killed in that attack.

[Yoshiyoshi]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

And what everyone seems to be forgetting is that the Golan Heights is land that is occupied/was annexed by Israel. 

Again the hypocrisy of those condemning Russia for annexing Ukrainian territory, while failing to condemn Isreal for annexing Palestinian land is BS.

Its not the same thing. Ukraine did not invade Russia nor did it plan to invade Russia and had never attacked Russia as far as i know, certainly not since becoming independent . Lebanon did attack Israel multiple times and was in the process of preparing to attack them again when Israel launched a preemptive attack against them. The real BS is thinking that Israel doesnt have the right to annex that land. If you attack someone and then lose, you get punished, when nations do it that punishment is the loss of land and resources. Im not sure what to say here if you cant tell what the difference is between the 2 is.

[Optimist Prime]

10 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Because this is just about a military operation, and you have experience in these matters, I will debate this point with.

 

I could give a more detailed account however I will quote the last paragraph from this Britianica article.

The online version of the encyclopaedia Britianica.

 

This article is about the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah.

 

https://www.britannica.com/event/2006-Lebanon-War

 

" Hezbollah's ability to fight the IDF to a standstill - a feat no other Arab militia had accomplished - allowed it to claim victory at home and emerge as heroes throughout the Arab world. "

 

So as you can see, Hezbollah has already done something that  no other Arabian military force has been able to do, fight the IDF to a standstill.

 

While the IDF is a superior fighting force, has the backing of the US and will control the skies, it won't be easy as they will be fighting a war on two fronts.

In Gaza, and on their northern border. 

 

What I also find strange is that Hezbollah denied that missile strike.

They have never been backwards in coming forwards in regards to claiming responsibility for missile strikes before. 

 

And what everyone seems to be forgetting is that the Golan Heights is land that is occupied/was annexed by Israel. 

Again the hypocrisy of those condemning Russia for annexing Ukrainian territory, while failing to condemn Isreal for annexing Palestinian land is BS.

 

And just to be clear, the obvious has to be stated in this thread, I condemn Hezbollah for its attacks on Isreal.

And Iran for supplying the weapons that enable them to do this.

 

Also my thoughts are with the families of the children who were killed in that attack.

Agreed, with the caveat that the standstill was due to bending to political pressure, which I don't believe a wrathful Israel will have to do this time. 

 

I should also say, I am not happy about it, nor cheering it on, I remain hopeful that a limited response is more or less the end of it, but I have seen troop buildup chatter in my feeds and I think this may tip a full invasion of two provinces of Lebanon.

[Ilunga]

15 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Its not the same thing. Ukraine did not invade Russia nor did it plan to invade Russia and had never attacked Russia as far as i know, certainly not since becoming independent . Lebanon did attack Israel multiple times and was in the process of preparing to attack them again when Israel launched a preemptive attack against them. The real BS is thinking that Israel doesnt have the right to annex that land. If you attack someone and then lose, you get punished, when nations do it that punishment is the loss of land and resources. Im not sure what to say here if you cant tell what the difference is between the 2 is.

 

The international community condemns Isreals Annexation of the Golan Heights.

 

Seeing this is a Canadian message board, let's start with your country. 

 

https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/mena-moan/israeli-palestinian_policy-politique_israelo-palestinien.aspx?lang=eng

 

Your Government considers the annexation/occupation of the Golan Heights as a violation of the 4th Geneva convention. 

 

What I can tell you, is that you, like so many others don't seem to believe in a rules based world order. 

[Ilunga]

20 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Agreed, with the caveat that the standstill was due to bending to political pressure, which I don't believe a wrathful Israel will have to do this time. 

 

I should also say, I am happy about it, nor cheering it on, I remain hopeful that a limited response is more or less the end of it, but I have seen troop buildup chatter in my feeds and I think this may tip a full invasion of two provinces of Lebanon.

 

At this point in time Lebanon is failed state. 

 

I have been reading that all through this Gaza conflict, Iran is reluctant in regards to Hezbollah attacking Israel.

It is their most powerful proxy military organisation and they know in an all out conflict, with the backing of the US, Israel will come out on top. 

 

As I stated, I find it strange that Hezbollah denied that missile strike, when they have always been willing to claim responsibility for all their actions. 

 

What ever unfolds, what will happen is more women and children will be killed.

 

 

There hasn't been much coverage of the loss of civilians life in southern Lebanon due to Israeli strikes.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/nine-people-killed-rocket-hits-football-pitch-israeli-occupied-golan-israel-2024-07-27/

 

" The conflict has forced tens of thousands of people in both Lebanon and Israel to leave their homes. Isreali strikes have killed some 350 Hezbollah fighters and more than 100 civilians, including medics, children and Journalists. "

[Canuck Surfer]

6 hours ago, Babych said:

idk about this, brother. To me, attributing this to some cultural beliefs hits wrongly.. maybe bc I’ve been living in the uae and have had very positive experiences there.

 

Sadly, rape/torture/humiliation/etc has been common in most conflicts. The US committed huge atrocities in Vietnam.. I have a good friend - Serbian - that has told

me horror stories about what people did to each other. They don’t come from a culture of shame and honour, yet still performed acts just as bad, or worse, than what we’re seeing now. 
 

I struggle when I see bad behaviour attributed to cultural norms. I think it’s lazy and misleading. I think some people are just born wrong, and will behave horribly in certain situations.

 

Edit: apologies if I took what you said out of context;)

 

Try living in Pakistan, Syria, Iran.

 

India, Bangladesh, Sudan...

 

I was in UAE just over two weeks ago. Also Jordan, Egypt and a resort in S.A..  It happens more in some places than others.

Spoiler

Amongst those of Arabic, a distinction from Muslim cultures; I was told about Gazan's. ''We hurt for them, with them. These are Arabic peoples, we are as one!''  But where the economy is good in Jordan? Underpinned by economic aid from the US in return for bases & normalization with Egypt.  They still do not like the US, believe that all of Palestine should have been partitioned to Arabic cultures. People are not giving up their middle class jobs to go fight.  Nor do they want the refugee's. 

 

Go live in the third world countries, where a warlord reigns. Say Yemen. Or 2knd world in the hands of a dictator. Say, Iran?

 

Gaza...

 

People are oppressed.  There is no govt. support.  They are given food by Mosque's supplied by militia those with weapons and routes to get supplies. Taught Inshallah, God is great and doctrine (twisted) as Prophets zealots teach it for their own purpose. Communities, always involved with the religious institutions, have their own militia, private security, influence on local politics.  Subjects end up with jobs, customers for their business if they pay a toll, and are allowed supplies from local black markets controlled again by the militia. Like bikie gangs run dug supplies, and competitors are rooted out like Rock Machine vs Hells Angels. I am exaggerating; not much! If you buy in; the same militia, affords some security as long as they are in power.

 

Many such areas have been at civil war for decades, if not infinity. Doctrine they are taught is a function of how power figures manipulate to grip power. Practices of corporal discipline, worse, family roles go back centuries, not to the 1950's. In the news this week. Women were flogged publicly for shopping in Tehran without their husbands present. Women, any who do not wish to follow doctrine, gays, those who don't 'participate' in the community?  Cough; pay tolls, let those in charge have control are subjugated. Beaten & it has happened their whole life? Even from a young age. Stray farther; question or disrupt authority and there are death penalties. 

 

Men, power figures, gangs and militants rule by domination. Which seeps in to everyday life or the power figure in any relationship; how many are taught to deal with things their whole life. It can take generations to remove these 'traditional' ways of doing things.

 

 

 

 

You can choose to ignore all this? Or Google Honour Killings?

 

I recommend the video you replied to; and I can supply many, many more resources on the issue. The video does an amazing job of blowing up what is a legitimate cultural problem in some communities. For whatever reason? I added my observations on what might contribute in the spoiler. Then adding what happens when you add the mob mentality of a war zone, death, historic suffering, blood & revenge lust.  

 

To me it was a perfect explanation of why Oct 7 happened. These are suffering people. 

 

Not just at the hands of Jews.

[Canuck Surfer]

8 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

You can choose to ignore all this? Or Google Honour Killings?

 

Perhaps I am spamming the issue now? 

 

We as Canadians, Australians see legally anyway a distinction between violence and tradition.  This happened a few doors from my Muther & Father in laws house. 

 

[HarbularyBattery]

8 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Try living in Pakistan, Syria, Iran.

 

India, Bangladesh, Sudan...

 

I was in UAE just over two weeks ago. Also Jordan, Egypt and a resort in S.A..  It happens more in some places than others.

  Hide contents

Amongst those of Arabic, a distinction from Muslim cultures; I was told about Gazan's. ''We hurt for them, with them. These are Arabic peoples, we are as one!''  But where the economy is good in Jordan? Underpinned by economic aid from the US in return for bases & normalization with Egypt.  They still do not like the US, believe that all of Palestine should have been partitioned to Arabic cultures. People are not giving up their middle class jobs to go fight.  Nor do they want the refugee's. 

 

Go live in the third world countries, where a warlord reigns. Say Yemen. Or 2knd world in the hands of a dictator. Say, Iran?

 

Gaza...

 

People are oppressed.  There is no govt. support.  They are given food by Mosque's supplied by militia those with weapons and routes to get supplies. Taught Inshallah, God is great and doctrine (twisted) as Prophets zealots teach it for their own purpose. Communities, always involved with the religious institutions, have their own militia, private security, influence on local politics.  Subjects end up with jobs, customers for their business if they pay a toll, and are allowed supplies from local black markets controlled again by the militia. Like bikie gangs run dug supplies, and competitors are rooted out like Rock Machine vs Hells Angels. I am exaggerating; not much! If you buy in; the same militia, affords some security as long as they are in power.

 

Many such areas have been at civil war for decades, if not infinity. Doctrine they are taught is a function of how power figures manipulate to grip power. Practices of corporal discipline, worse, family roles go back centuries, not to the 1950's. In the news this week. Women were flogged publicly for shopping in Tehran without their husbands present. Women, any who do not wish to follow doctrine, gays, those who don't 'participate' in the community?  Cough; pay tolls, let those in charge have control are subjugated. Beaten & it has happened their whole life? Even from a young age. Stray farther; question or disrupt authority and there are death penalties. 

 

Men, power figures, gangs and militants rule by domination. Which seeps in to everyday life or the power figure in any relationship; how many are taught to deal with things their whole life. It can take generations to remove these 'traditional' ways of doing things.

 

 

 

 

You can choose to ignore all this? Or Google Honour Killings?

 

I recommend the video you replied to; and I can supply many, many more resources on the issue. The video does an amazing job of blowing up what is a legitimate cultural problem in some communities. For whatever reason? I added my observations on what might contribute in the spoiler. Then adding what happens when you add the mob mentality of a war zone, death, historic suffering, blood & revenge lust.  

 

To me it was a perfect explanation of why Oct 7 happened. These are suffering people. 

 

Not just at the hands of Jews.

 

Adding something to that

 

Western governments have chosen to back extremist islamic offshoots, like wahabbis, or at least provide their full consent to these extreme factions creating policy, educational materials, and more in the Arab world. We only need to look as far as Saudi Arabia. The US backs a regime that chose a Grand Mufti, who has issued fatwas that among other things have called for:

 

1. the obliteration of all churches on the arabian peninsula

2. allow 10 year old girls to marry

 

and said that reconciliation between religions is impossible

 

these fringe ultra orthodox religious groups have received an absurd amount of financial backing and political power, i think because they reject actual liberalism that would pose a threat to superpowers ability to control them. 

 

unfortunately a generation + of these people being in power has led to radicalization and indoctrination on a massive scale. 

[Canuck Surfer]

2 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

unfortunately a generation + of these people being in power has led to radicalization and indoctrination on a massive scale.

 

This is the point of my posts.

 

In the hands of radicals; tradition leads to forced expectation that everyone lend their allegiance to radical causes. 

 

The situation calls for people within Israel, and Gaza, now Lebanon, ALL saying this is not how we want to live. 

 

 

 

 

 

I am going to read more on the situation in SA.  They are the key power broker vs Iran in the ME.  Just yesterday I saw a news report on the Saudi's moderating under MBS. Propaganda I suppose?  There has been relaxation of rules related to work, education. Women for 6 years (?) now have the right to drive! If your churches are burnt down; I suppose you have to leave?

 

Alternately; you hope that movements form that remove radical regimes.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

31 minutes ago, HarbularyBattery said:

Western governments have chosen to back extremist islamic offshoots, like wahabbis,

 

This is also a factor.

 

But a competitive one in a global world.  There is substantial trade and economic partnerships gained by backing sides that end up ruling. Russia and Iran are now buddies.

 

Its not a one way street. Who do you back?

[Canuck Surfer]

Courtesy @SilentSam in the Russia thread. Interesting mentioning ''we'' in Karabakh?

 

The Armenian / Azerbaijan recent conflict. Cough, Azer Muslims vs Christian Armenians. 

Erdogan also has major interests in controlling Somali coastlines in military deals. Backs the RSF in West Sudan, so does UAE @Babych.  The RSF, an Arabic Muslim group currently vying for Sudanese control. Slaughtering African tribes in West Darfur who are not launching missiles over borders. Countries, see Wagner, send private mercenary Armies as security for such Rebel groups. Mineral rights and the proceeds of Gold mines tax free only the tip of the iceberg.  My belief is Erdogan has visions as Putin does Russian grandeur; of the Ottoman empire renewing its claim to Israel.  

 

Not returning it to Palestinians. 

 

I mentioned genocide in Sudan & the RSF, its supporters. Here is a vid related there.

 

 

Plays himself as peacemaker;  https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/turkish-president-somali-counterpart-discuss-bilateral-ties/3288840

 

Turkey is not a peacemaker.

 

 

[RWMc1]

hezbollah admitted to firing rockets when this happened. They also claimed to have struck a military target. After it became apparent that they struck and killed children, they changed their story. There was no military target struck so it should be obvious that the "military target" that they originally claimed to have bombed was in fact children playing soccer. The fragments of the bomb were Iranian made and is the types of rockets that hezbollah uses.

 

 

[RomanPer]

4 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Courtesy @SilentSam in the Russia thread. Interesting mentioning ''we'' in Karabakh?

 

The Armenian / Azerbaijan recent conflict. Cough, Azer Muslims vs Christian Armenians. 

Erdogan also has major interests in controlling Somali coastlines in military deals. Backs the RSF in West Sudan, so does UAE @Babych.  The RSF, an Arabic Muslim group currently vying for Sudanese control. Slaughtering African tribes in West Darfur who are not launching missiles over borders. Countries, see Wagner, send private mercenary Armies as security for such Rebel groups. Mineral rights and the proceeds of Gold mines tax free only the tip of the iceberg.  My belief is Erdogan has visions as Putin does Russian grandeur; of the Ottoman empire renewing its claim to Israel.  

 

Not returning it to Palestinians. 

 

I mentioned genocide in Sudan & the RSF, its supporters. Here is a vid related there.

 

 

Plays himself as peacemaker;  https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/turkish-president-somali-counterpart-discuss-bilateral-ties/3288840

 

Turkey is not a peacemaker.

 

 

 

I'm really curious to know how exactly he's planning "to enter". It's one thing to open your mouth, it's completely different to follow through. In the process, he screwed up his big ally Azerbaijan with the whole "we entered Karabakh". Azerbaijan, who is a very close ally of Israel, having most of its army using Israeli military products.