Hamas attacking Israel

[Warhippy]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

He is an idiot, just like his buddy Ben Gvir. Highly likely he will not be in the next coalition after the next elections.

Idiot or not.  

 

They are high ranking government officials defending the still ongoing illegal settlements and openly saying they are starving hundreds of thousands in open air camps.

 

That is seriously disturbing.  

[Bob Long]

Just now, Warhippy said:

Why do people who support Israels right to exist have to support the governemt of Israels openly stating that they are starving literally hundreds of thousands of people on purpose?

 

We don't. I don't like that one bit. But I'm still not going to support leaving Israel on its own to be destroyed by Iran. 

 

Just now, Warhippy said:

Quick heads up my guy.  BOTH parties can be in the wrong and if you are ok with this than you also have to be ok with Russia doing the same to Ukranians just to ensure you do not look like a hypocrite for...reasons.

 

Absolutely both sides of something can have elements of wrong to it. No one is denying that. But in the real world, every country has good and shitty elements to it, there's no perfect country, no perfect answer. 

 

I think Canada is the best place on the planet, and we still do a terrible job in many ways with First Nations health e.g. So what do I do, abandon Canada for...? 

 

With Israel, yes there are some pretty bad people there, doing and wanting to do more harm. I don't believe its the whole country wanting it. Right now though whats their actual alternative to trying to eliminate Hamas, or at least stamping it down to the point where Gazan's have a chance to bring in a better government. Sinwar sure as hell isn't going to be a moderate. 

 

It's a terrible situation. You can easily find hypocrisy in it, but you haven't given me a real, viable alternative.

 

[Taxi]

53 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Why do people who support Israels right to exist have to also have to defend every extremist in Bibi's government? I don't follow every stupid statement from people like this, nor do I feel the need to point out how dumb it is, seems pretty self evident the guy is an extremist not helping the situation.

 

 

The Israeli government is extremely complex. The Knesset has representatives of 17 different parties in it. Many are fringe parties, on both the far left and right, strongly opposed by the average citizen.

[Warhippy]

8 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

We don't. I don't like that one bit. But I'm still not going to support leaving Israel on its own to be destroyed by Iran. 

 

 

Absolutely both sides of something can have elements of wrong to it. No one is denying that. But in the real world, every country has good and shitty elements to it, there's no perfect country, no perfect answer. 

 

I think Canada is the best place on the planet, and we still do a terrible job in many ways with First Nations health e.g. So what do I do, abandon Canada for...? 

 

With Israel, yes there are some pretty bad people there, doing and wanting to do more harm. I don't believe its the whole country wanting it. Right now though whats their actual alternative to trying to eliminate Hamas, or at least stamping it down to the point where Gazan's have a chance to bring in a better government. Sinwar sure as hell isn't going to be a moderate. 

 

It's a terrible situation. You can easily find hypocrisy in it, but you haven't given me a real, viable alternative.

 

A viable alternative to admittedly openly starving an entire race of people while defending stealing their homes by force?

 

First step is removing that person from office.  Period.  This person is advocating the allowance of mass starvation as a tool for the government to get what they want.

 

There's no easy answers here.  At all.  I believe Hamas needs to go.  I believe Iran needs to be brought down 4 pegs while allowing the Iranian people to decide their own fate.  I believe Israel has every right to exist.

 

But when we allow government officials to basically dehumanize and push the allowance of inhumane behavior towards hundreds of thousands of not bordering in the million(s) of people than we are no better than the people and ideals we fight against in the name of freedom and security 

[Bob Long]

44 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

A viable alternative to admittedly openly starving an entire race of people while defending stealing their homes by force?

 

Show me how, in the context of the region. 

 

44 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

First step is removing that person from office.  Period.  This person is advocating the allowance of mass starvation as a tool for the government to get what they want.

 

I'm sure there's one just like him from his party waiting to take over. 

 

44 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

There's no easy answers here.  At all.  I believe Hamas needs to go.  I believe Iran needs to be brought down 4 pegs while allowing the Iranian people to decide their own fate.  I believe Israel has every right to exist.

 

But when we allow government officials to basically dehumanize and push the allowance of inhumane behavior towards hundreds of thousands of not bordering in the million(s) of people than we are no better than the people and ideals we fight against in the name of freedom and security 

 

So what specifically should we do, beyond calling it out? 

 

Hamas uses human shields, I have no doubt they would not allow food through to starve people for the headlines. 

 

I just don't see what the alternative is to whats going on, in the context of these two governments. 

 

Edited August 8 by Bob Long

[Taxi]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

Idiot or not.  

 

They are high ranking government officials defending the still ongoing illegal settlements and openly saying they are starving hundreds of thousands in open air camps.

 

That is seriously disturbing.  

 

Firstly, you're quoting a far right leader that nobody here supports, and he doesn't even say that. 

 

He says they can't and aren't starving people, but it might be justified as they are holding hostages. These hostages include infants. 

[Warhippy]

22 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

Firstly, you're quoting a far right leader that nobody here supports, and he doesn't even say that. 

 

He says they can't and aren't starving people, but it might be justified as they are holding hostages. These hostages include infants. 

His statements

 

no one will allow us to starve two million people, even though that might be just and moral until they return the hostages," he said at a conference in support of Jewish settlements.

 

The reality

 

 A United Nations statement, citing independent experts, indicated last month that famine has spread across the entire enclave. The experts accused Israel of conducting an “intentional and targeted starvation campaign,” which they termed a “form of genocidal violence.”

 

I am quoting a LEADER in the Israeli government period.  The very fact nobody else in the government seems willing to take him to task indicates this is either an accepted point of view at the least, or at the worst an open approval of it.

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

Show me how, in the context of the region. 

 

Show you how what?  In the context of the region to not openly starve hundreds of thousands of people?  Bob are you f**king serious here?

 

 

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

I'm sure there's one just like him from his party waiting to take over.

 

Which again indicates this is systemic point of view which suggests that the Israeli government is no better than the people they are trying to defeat in Hamas

 

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

So what specifically should we do, beyond calling it out? 

 

Hamas uses human shields, I have no doubt they would not allow food through to starve people for the headlines. 

 

I just don't see what the alternative is to whats going on, in the context of these two governments. 

 

You don't see because you've a bias.

 

Hamas uses people as human shield.  According to experts, Israel is openly starving individuals in what is an act of or form of genocide and the Israeli government has leaders of parties or in cabinet positions that defend this as acceptable while they defend the continued annexation of Palestinian land via illegal settlements.

 

So how exactly is Israeli leadership than any different than Hamas?  Don't you dare say some nonsense like "israel doesn't use its people as human shields" because they obviously don't really care about human life if they are willing to starve a population and steal their land by force.  

 

As a first nations member I have a valid gripe with this and the fact people refuse to see the issue, or accept the issue because of whatever percieved slight or bias is disturbing.

 

The simple fact is, experts are saying that this famine is occurring and people are starving.  A leader in Israel is saying maybe it is, maybe we just keep letting it happen while defending the ongoing illegal settlements.  Yet somehow people want to pretend as though Israeli leadership somehow has the moral high ground when they are in fact no better than the Hamas leaders they are trying to kill.

 

This is why I refuse and many others to even engage in this thread, because there is no grey area for the lot of the posters here.  only one side is right and any other statements make people either wrong, or antisemitic or suggests they just don't know the issues in the region.

 

Both sides are wrong.  

 

/thread 

[Taxi]

31 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

His statements

 

no one will allow us to starve two million people, even though that might be just and moral until they return the hostages," he said at a conference in support of Jewish settlements.

 

The reality

 

 A United Nations statement, citing independent experts, indicated last month that famine has spread across the entire enclave. The experts accused Israel of conducting an “intentional and targeted starvation campaign,” which they termed a “form of genocidal violence.”

 

I am quoting a LEADER in the Israeli government period.  The very fact nobody else in the government seems willing to take him to task indicates this is either an accepted point of view at the least, or at the worst an open approval of it.

 

The leader of the fringe party. And he didn't state that Israel was starving anyone.

[RWMc1]

 

The top video is from about a month ago and the bottom one is from 7 months ago.

 

This war will end eventually and Netanyahu will be ousted in the next election. Hopefully Gaza will have elections and will elect a governing body that wants actual peace so the Palestinian people won't have to suffer this horror ever again.

 

 

 

Edited August 9 by RWMc1

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Show you how what?  In the context of the region to not openly starve hundreds of thousands of people?  Bob are you f**king serious here?

 

 

Which again indicates this is systemic point of view which suggests that the Israeli government is no better than the people they are trying to defeat in Hamas

 

You don't see because you've a bias.

 

Hamas uses people as human shield.  According to experts, Israel is openly starving individuals in what is an act of or form of genocide and the Israeli government has leaders of parties or in cabinet positions that defend this as acceptable while they defend the continued annexation of Palestinian land via illegal settlements.

 

So how exactly is Israeli leadership than any different than Hamas?  Don't you dare say some nonsense like "israel doesn't use its people as human shields" because they obviously don't really care about human life if they are willing to starve a population and steal their land by force.  

 

As a first nations member I have a valid gripe with this and the fact people refuse to see the issue, or accept the issue because of whatever percieved slight or bias is disturbing.

 

The simple fact is, experts are saying that this famine is occurring and people are starving.  A leader in Israel is saying maybe it is, maybe we just keep letting it happen while defending the ongoing illegal settlements.  Yet somehow people want to pretend as though Israeli leadership somehow has the moral high ground when they are in fact no better than the Hamas leaders they are trying to kill.

 

This is why I refuse and many others to even engage in this thread, because there is no grey area for the lot of the posters here.  only one side is right and any other statements make people either wrong, or antisemitic or suggests they just don't know the issues in the region.

 

Both sides are wrong.  

 

/thread 

 

You have bias too hip.

 

I see a lot of problems, I don't see genocide when Hamas uses it's own people as fodder. 

 

I don't trust much of the "expert" info from that region either.

 

Unless the UN is willing to step in and directly distribute food I don't trust that Hamas is giving it out properly either.

 

I just can't get there with you, as bad as some things have been, no Israel is not the same as Hamas. 

 

I also don't see an alternative practical solution being put forward to end this.

 

Edited August 9 by Bob Long

[Canuck Surfer]

9 hours ago, Warhippy said:

As a first nations member I have a valid gripe with this and the fact people refuse to see the issue,

 

Hippy.

 

Israel, the US, the UN, ad nauseum has been shipping aid for 80 years. More now, much more. The close quarters of the war also magnify humanitarian crisis within. I agreed when you posted Israeli citizens blocking aid trucks that it was disgusting. I am also in agreement Israel has performed war crimes for which they should be responsible.

 

This is not a one sided conflict though. Nor war crimes on one side only. Not even close; I argue the Islamic extremists corruption and blood lust to be worse.

 

Hamas intentionally derailed peace talks, discussions of two state solutions both in the 90's, and in 2005/2006.  Hamas leaders ran gangs through the streets and have been diverting aid, taxes, control of local police, politics for thirty years. It did not go to feed and house the poor. Haniyeh who just died, was a militant leader in the 90's. He died with a net worth exceeding 6 billion dollars. ON THE BOOKS. He would have had 50 Billion plus off the books to be able to launder that in to personal wealth.

 

Palestinians, specifically Gazans in the 70's & 80's?  Were offered Israeli citizenship.  I can absolutely understand people not wanting this.  However, its a point of fact that the brand new leader of Hamas, Sinwar.  In the 80's was personally the gang heavy who beat and made sure people both paid their tax to the emerging Hamas. With a goal of eliminating discussions of life alongside of Jews. And tax at the Mosque. Also those that took jobs, and considered such citizenship.  When the PLO moderated, negotiated & signed a peace deal with, that phrase again, a two state solution. They started throwing PLO and PA members out windows. Terrorizing people in the streets that believed they should accept a peaceful life alongside Israel.

 

These same people meet aid truck & ensure fighters, and those in the tunnels are serviced before those suffering all the horrific stuff above ground. ie the people. 

 

Please tell me also.  What does being indigenous in Canada have to do with being Palestinian? Or explain the parallel. Many / most Jews were kicked out of what became Israel & Palestine. By Christian Crusaders who also kicked out most Arabs. Ultimately were defeated by Muslim groups. Then defeated by Turks. Who were defeated by Brits and French. Kinda but not exactly like indigenous N Americans faced genocide by wannabe Christians. Nomadic & other peoples started reinhabiting closer to a majority as the Ottoman reign was closing. But people like now dead Haniyeh, and new leader Sinwar don't want to share territory with Christians, Druze, Jews, Egyptian Muslims, Shia Muslims, Bedouin, others with history, anyone.  Unless they pay tax & redevote allegiance to their religion and leadership. Virtually all minorities & religions have been eliminated, to this day. 

 

In Israel people have freedom of religion; in Gaza under Hamas parents & kids are beaten, worse. Much like kids in Canada were sent to residential schools.

 

Then in the same way, any non conformists start disappearing. 

[Canuck Surfer]

11 hours ago, Warhippy said:

They are high ranking government officials defending the still ongoing illegal settlements.

 

That is seriously disturbing. 

 

This is part of the war crimes, my choice of words, yes by Israel. Which existed pre Oct 7. There is both greed and greater abuse by some, who have periodically found their way in to power.

 

Apathy by general public in Israel towards Palestinians is an issue. Which unfortunately empower the Ben Gvirs. But like I argued there were crimes by both sides now?  Hamas lobbed as many as 3000 missiles a year in to Israel. Apathy, to a degree, is understandable. When every Jew in Israel has also lived in houses with bomb shelters. Lost someone in wars or terror. Even in periods without war. Hamas sent in suicide bombers, took hostages. The PLO before them. Killed the ''moderates'' and ''collaborators'' who wanted to simply settle for a portion of land & have a two state solution.

 

I personally do not believe Israel, as a course of policy, is starving camps. I absolutely believe people are starving. I do believe Israel could do better. I also believe there would be hundreds of thousands of dead. Easily within their capability! If Israel was actually intent on genocide.

 

Too much collateral damage a fair discussion! 

 

I ask anyone who wants peace for Palestinians? Not just get hung up on blaming Israel. To suggest it include peace for all in the region; including Jews.

[LegioN]

 

"Oh Allah, act with cruelty against the Palestinian's enemies, the Jews, plundering Zionists, Christians, and those who aid them. Oh Allah, annihilate the hypocrites of the Islamic nation. Oh Allah, count them, kill them one by one, and do not leave a single one of them."

 

5 minutes from my house...

[Taxi]

15 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

You have bias too hip.

 

I see a lot of problems, I don't see genocide when Hamas uses it's own people as fodder. 

 

I don't trust much of the "expert" info from that region either.

 

Unless the UN is willing to step in and directly distribute food I don't trust that Hamas is giving it out properly either.

 

I just can't get there with you, as bad as some things have been, no Israel is not the same as Hamas. 

 

I also don't see an alternative practical solution being put forward to end this.

 

It's a fact that armed men are taking much of the food and selling it on the black market for higher price in Gaza. If it was Jews stealing aid from other Jews and selling it at a profit, people would be having a field day with that.

[Warhippy]

No matter what happens.  If you equate Israeli leadership to being no different than Hamas ledership.  Point out that they are the same animal.

 

People will still state or claim that you are speaking of Israel or Israelis and insinuate some level of anti semitism.

 

The circle continues

[HarbularyBattery]

13 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

No matter what happens.  If you equate Israeli leadership to being no different than Hamas ledership.  Point out that they are the same animal.

 

People will still state or claim that you are speaking of Israel or Israelis and insinuate some level of anti semitism.

 

The circle continues

I am very sympathetic to the Palestinian cause (I have very strong opinions about the 1948 ethnic cleansing), but even to me there is no comparison between the Israeli leadership and Hamas leadership. 

 

Israel has committed war crimes in this fight, but it is clearly not Israel's goal to maximize the number of dead Palestinians. Its Hamas's goal to maximize the number of dead Israelis. The current Israeli leadership operates in a democratic framework, and acts according to the will of their population. Hamas hijacked the democratic framework in Gaza and does not submit to the will of the population. Lastly, Israel distinguishes between combatants and noncombatants (sometimes not too effectively, but it tries). Hamas intentionally kidnapped and murdered noncombatants. 

[HarbularyBattery]

2 hours ago, LegioN said:

 

"Oh Allah, act with cruelty against the Palestinian's enemies, the Jews, plundering Zionists, Christians, and those who aid them. Oh Allah, annihilate the hypocrites of the Islamic nation. Oh Allah, count them, kill them one by one, and do not leave a single one of them."

 

5 minutes from my house...

 

this is fucking disgusting

 

prison.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

No matter what happens.  If you equate Israeli leadership to being no different than Hamas ledership.  Point out that they are the same animal.

 

People will still state or claim that you are speaking of Israel or Israelis and insinuate some level of anti semitism.

 

The circle continues

 

I don't agree with some of your ideas, but I don't think you are antisemetic. 

 

 

 

Edited August 9 by Bob Long

[Taxi]

1 hour ago, HarbularyBattery said:

I am very sympathetic to the Palestinian cause (I have very strong opinions about the 1948 ethnic cleansing), but even to me there is no comparison between the Israeli leadership and Hamas leadership. 

 

Israel has committed war crimes in this fight, but it is clearly not Israel's goal to maximize the number of dead Palestinians. Its Hamas's goal to maximize the number of dead Israelis. The current Israeli leadership operates in a democratic framework, and acts according to the will of their population. Hamas hijacked the democratic framework in Gaza and does not submit to the will of the population. Lastly, Israel distinguishes between combatants and noncombatants (sometimes not too effectively, but it tries). Hamas intentionally kidnapped and murdered noncombatants. 

 

Hamas also wants to maximize the number of dead Palestinians. They get a political victory every time they accuse Israel of a massacre. They purposely put their citizens in harm way and then inflate the number of dead civilians.

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, Warhippy said:

If you equate Israeli leadership to being no different than Hamas ledership.

 

Is this your point?

 

Where are your calls for how Palestinians, or Hezbollah come to the table for peace?  You have, to my observation, simply / endlessly called for Israel to cease its actions. As if everyone is dumb for not recognizing for being the primary perpetrator. 

 

What in Hamas, or Iran's proposals or their doctrine have you identified as a means for peaceful co-existance? 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

The Wheels on the bus...

 

Is this a crime?  Hezbollah has launched 6500 missiles at Israel since Oct 7.  Maybe its the chicken or the egg...

[Optimist Prime]

3 hours ago

Israeli army: Air force bombed Hamas command and control headquarters in Al-Tabi'in School in central Gaza City

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

New relocation.  For attack, is Sinwar nearby?