Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

6 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

It was October 9th and I wouldn't be surprised if "senior Israeli source" was someone like Ben Gvir... As for why the world is not told this - the world is told, the world chooses not to listen. Every attempt by Israel to present its side of the story is immediately being labeled "hasbarah" by the anti Israel crowd and became for some reason a swear word (the word "hasbarah" is translated as "explanation" from Hebrew). At some point Israel decided not to bother too hard since no matter what Israel says, the loud minority swarms every attempt. Some channels are still maintained though, like this one: https://x.com/IDF

 

 

 

This link has and audio interview with an Israeli journalist I was listening to yesterday.

 

He states that's since Israel's inception, it is the only " western " style democracy that has press censorship.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/latenightlive/censorship-israel-haggai-matar-972/104220556

 

I have read enough articles, and seen enough docos, reports on Israel, to know that the Israeli people are not being allowed to see what we, here in other countries are seeing, in regards to what is happening in Gaza.

[Ilunga]

56 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

The world only notices what it wants to notice. The amount of efforts that Israel goes to, often putting themselves in tactical disadvantage is huge. But it's not sexy for the news around the world. They won't tell that Israel announces way in advance in Arabic about upcoming operation in certain areas, they won't show you leaflets that Israel distributes in advance of the attacks. They won't tell you about the "knock on the roof" that Israel does by dropping a light weight on the house they want to target long in advance. Not really sure what more Israel can do. And guess what - when something goes wrong, Israel admits it more often than not and investigates. And if investigation finds Israeli military personnel criminally responsible - they do go to jail.

 

Anyone who has done any research on the subject of Isreali soldiers being held accountable for harming Palestinians knows that not many of them spend any time in prison. 

 

" Under 1% of Israeli army probes yield prosecution"

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-12-22/ty-article/watchdog-under-1-of-israel-army-probes-yield-prosecution/00000185-39de-d5e1-a1e5-7ffe453f0000

 

Isreali soldiers accused of harming soldiers in the west bank and Gaza strip over the last five years have been indicted in less than 1% of of the hundreds of complaints against them, an Israeli rights group reported. The Watchdog argued that Israels military fails to conduct a credible prosecution of itself. "

 

This Times of Israel article details which Israeli soldiers spend time in military prison and why Isreali are imprisoned at a rate of 67 times that of civilians.

 

 " About 1-15 Isreali soldiers were jailed last year - and that's an improvement "

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/with-1-in-15-soldiers-jailed-last-year-idf-rethinks-its-rules-of-incarceration/

 

" Some 10,000 troops spent time in military prison in 2018, most for minor offenses and the majority from poor backgrounds, and that's better than in the past. " 

 

" Soldiers from Israels Ethiopian community in particular are incarcerated at rates disproportionate to their numbers in the military. " 

 

On Soldier, Shani Baliti was sentenced to s

20 days in military prison for refusing an order to put her hair in a ponytail. "

[Satchmo]

26 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

It was October 9th and I wouldn't be surprised if "senior Israeli source" was someone like Ben Gvir... As for why the world is not told this - the world is told, the world chooses not to listen. Every attempt by Israel to present its side of the story is immediately being labeled "hasbarah" by the anti Israel crowd and became for some reason a swear word (the word "hasbarah" is translated as "explanation" from Hebrew). At some point Israel decided not to bother too hard since no matter what Israel says, the loud minority swarms every attempt. Some channels are still maintained though, like this one: https://x.com/IDF

 

 

The first casualty of war is the truth they say.   I get my news from many sources (though not from X).  I'm not sure my sources are all guilty of spreading falsehoods and ignoring truths.

 

I don't think we are going to come to an agreement on anything apart from a shared hatred of Hamas, Hezbollah, and their ilk.   I get the impression that you think Israel can do no wrong and is justified for all actions taken.   They have my support but I am not so sure no wrongs have taken place nor am I sure that every action taken has been justified.  

[RomanPer]

Just now, Satchmo said:

The first casualty of war is the truth they say.   I get my news from many sources (though not from X).  I'm not sure my sources are all guilty of spreading falsehoods and ignoring truths.

 

I don't think we are going to come to an agreement on anything apart from a shared hatred of Hamas, Hezbollah, and their ilk.   I get the impression that you think Israel can do no wrong and is justified for all actions taken.   They have my support but I am not so sure no wrongs have taken place nor am I sure that every action taken has been justified.  

 

Incorrect. But Israel is my family and I will try to clean our internal mess within the family, without advertising it to the world.

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

 

Incorrect. But Israel is my family and I will try to clean our internal mess within the family, without advertising it to the world.

I think secrecy is not the correct approach at this time.

[RomanPer]

Just now, Satchmo said:

I think secrecy is not the correct approach at this time.

 

Secrecy about what? There are plenty "critics of Israel" out there, even where there's nothing to criticize Israel for. They don't need my help. I'm really curious if I started a thread to discuss countless cases of Israel's positive influence on this world, how long will it take before llunga's of this board would pop in to "criticize"?

[Yoshiyoshi]

2 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

I think secrecy is not the correct approach at this time.

The legal system is very slow, and requires evidence to convict of a crime. Unlike the media, which can do it with a post.

[Satchmo]

8 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

The legal system is very slow, and requires evidence to convict of a crime. Unlike the media, which can do it with a post.

What does that have to do with secrecy?

[Satchmo]

11 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Secrecy about what? There are plenty "critics of Israel" out there, even where there's nothing to criticize Israel for. They don't need my help. I'm really curious if I started a thread to discuss countless cases of Israel's positive influence on this world, how long will it take before llunga's of this board would pop in to "criticize"?

My post was in response to 'But Israel is my family and I will try to clean our internal mess within the family, without advertising it to the world.'   I made no reference to critics.

[Yoshiyoshi]

Just now, Satchmo said:

What does that have to do with secrecy?

nothing, because its not about secrecy. Any legal responses to things in this war will not be known to us for a long time because its hard to do an investigation in a war zone. And then you can add the time it takes for the legal system to move after that to it as well.

[Yoshiyoshi]

Just now, Satchmo said:

My post was in response to 'But Israel is my family and I will try to clean our internal mess within the family, without advertising it to the world.'   I made no reference to critics.

I think what he meant is that they wont be advertising it to the world because its not their job to let the world know about their criminals. Its not a spectator sport. They will deal with the cases through their legal system and be done with it.

[Satchmo]

Just now, Yoshiyoshi said:

I think what he meant is that they wont be advertising it to the world because its not their job to let the world know about their criminals. Its not a spectator sport. They will deal with the cases through their legal system and be done with it.

Fair enough I suppose though I can't agree.  Your post mentions 'criminality'.  I never went that far and that might be why it took me a while to catch on.  I'm sure there has been criminality now that you bring it up.  Usually when criminality occurs it is reported on while the wheels of justice slowly turn.

 

This part of the thread all started with my wish for more Entebbe like logistics and wizardry as opposed to indiscriminate rocketry.  I still hold that wish. 

[Optimist Prime]

32 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Fair enough I suppose though I can't agree.  Your post mentions 'criminality'.  I never went that far and that might be why it took me a while to catch on.  I'm sure there has been criminality now that you bring it up.  Usually when criminality occurs it is reported on while the wheels of justice slowly turn.

 

This part of the thread all started with my wish for more Entebbe like logistics and wizardry as opposed to indiscriminate rocketry.  I still hold that wish. 

Most of the time the rockets from Israel, and bombs, and raids now with tanks and boots on the ground are discriminate. Unfortunately there is no way to kill the commander of the Qassam Brigades when he is alone and not shielded behind 70 civilians, women and children because it is his tactic to literally lay among them in a tent in a refugee camp. The only way to eliminate the terrorists in a lot of cases, ends up with civilian, but highly partisan, casualities. It is sad and horrible but lately the IDF has made a LOT of progress, Sinwar's death or capture at this point would likely be the end of the war in Gaza, and it likley will come wiht dozens of civilian deaths and hostages deaths too. I wish it happened tonight so that the larger Palestinian peoples in gaza can find peace again.

 

[Satchmo]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

Most of the time the rockets from Israel, and bombs, and raids now with tanks and boots on the ground are discriminate. Unfortunately there is no way to kill the commander of the Qassam Brigades when he is alone and not shielded behind 70 civilians, women and children because it is his tactic to literally lay among them in a tent in a refugee camp. The only way to eliminate the terrorists in a lot of cases, ends up with civilian, but highly partisan, casualities. It is sad and horrible but lately the IDF has made a LOT of progress, Sinwar's death or capture at this point would likely be the end of the war in Gaza, and it likley will come wiht dozens of civilian deaths and hostages deaths too. I wish it happened tonight so that the larger Palestinian peoples in gaza can find peace again.

 

Yikes!  Somebody asked what I would like to see and I answered.  Sorry folks. I won't do it again.

[Optimist Prime]

28 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Yikes!  Somebody asked what I would like to see and I answered.  Sorry folks. I won't do it again.

Nah, your good, i was just thinking out loud. My bad. 

[RomanPer]

54 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Yikes!  Somebody asked what I would like to see and I answered.  Sorry folks. I won't do it again.

 

Sorry, it wasn't personal from my perspective. Just emotional reaction. All I hear around these days is "Israel should do this, Israel should do that", so I'm being extra sensitive to the topic. I apologize.

Edited August 15 by RomanPer

[Sharpshooter]

36 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Yikes!  Somebody asked what I would like to see and I answered.  Sorry folks. I won't do it again.

You’re good bud. 
 

Carry on. 

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Secrecy about what? There are plenty "critics of Israel" out there, even where there's nothing to criticize Israel for. They don't need my help. I'm really curious if I started a thread to discuss countless cases of Israel's positive influence on this world, how long will it take before llunga's of this board would pop in to "criticize"?

 

Do you ever think before you post ?

 

Who has posted positive things about Isrealis both helping Palestinians, and working with them, and seperately for peace ?

 

I have Roman. 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

Incorrect. But Israel is my family and I will try to clean our internal mess within the family, without advertising it to the world.

 

I like this comment.  I really like this comment! 

 

While i think some measures, certainly initial efforts may have to start in private? I applaud any effort to get in to the political cycle, stop many of the root causes to the conflict. Israel certainly contributes to some. At a higher level; would applaud putting some idea's on the table that sound like concessions.  But with the price required.

 

It can be a game of take away. I will explain with an example in a sec.

 

Without some disclosure, an effort at transparency & honest effort; it will be forever hard to sell accountability!  There always will be criticism. Some which can be shrugged off. Simply shrugging it off just welcomes the mill bloggers who heap lies on top of the truth; which is closer to the middle then many will admit. As is blame. Take the lead!

 

Back to take away? Specifically world opinion on things such as 'the worlds largest outdoor prison?''  West Bank access. Address it head on willing to be accountable!

 

Every daily Update could start with a statement posted like in the spolier for 15 seconds.

 

Spoiler

We understand a sentiment people are and were concerned about Gaza even before Oct 7.  Repeat & state, don't dwell, that Israel left Gaza unilaterally nearly 20 years ago. We have our reasons for what siege has been placed on Gaza. We invite anyone to open forum on how we should address these concerns;

 

- Between 2001 and 2014 we had recorded more than 20,000 rockets launched from Gaza into Southern Israel.

- Mostly at civilian targets.

- Most, the skies opened up, after Aug 2006, when we withdrew security measures that are still in place in West Bank.

- In 2008, 2012, 2014, 2021 we fought and suppressed full acts of war initiated by Hamas!

- Israel has arrested ____, and currently imprisons ____ for these LINK TO VARIOUS VIOLENT & OUTRIGHT TERRORIST ACTS. 

- We all know what occurred Oct 7.

- An issue for people, not Israel (?), worth discussing is the civil unrest MANY non Hamas civilians face in Gaza

- An issue for people, not Israel (?), is extensive civil war, civil distress, militant activity MOST minorities seem to suffer in MANY surrounding ME area's. 

 

We are and will be committed to a more autonomous position for Palestinians. Who, like all the regions people, need freedom of religion, right of determination, place!

 

The spoilers last sentence, appears to stray from, say, a Netanyahu long term policy? That Israel prefers a sense of unbalance or chaos within West Bank / Gaza.

 

Why prefer chaos?  The primary reason is if Hamas / PLO / PA Palestinians never establish themselves. They remain a threat Israel can extinguish any few years militarily.  A secondary reason exists, in that a percentage of Israli's, heck Jews who even recently migrated? And specifically including The Ben-Gvir's, Gallants, some of the hard liners who, as fact, are in the coalition. See territory and security zones as opportunity. This does get abused! There are many locations in Judea & Samaria, such people believe are also sacred, that Israel has a right to keep? Would even keep Gaza. Yes a minority, but they sway a lot of power, and influence, tolerance of bad behaviour.

 

Accepting, even discussing, a long term proposal requires a lot of that quiet discussion Roman?

 

I also believe in a spoiler statement making EVERYONE aware of what accountability Israel can offer! I actually appreciate that you cop, rather than question when I have posted what concerns I have about israel. You will have seen I have challenged Ilunga, numerous other Israel 'blamers' even if they acknowledge issues with Hamas. With asking what will Hamas, Palestinians commit to for peace! When commitments to solutions start becoming more public than blame?

 

Keep some stuff secret, sure; but what can Israel offer for peace Roman?

 

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I like this comment.  I really like this comment! 

 

While i think some measures, certainly initial efforts may have to start in private? I applaud any effort to get in to the political cycle, stop many of the root causes to the conflict. Israel certainly contributes to some. At a higher level; would applaud putting some idea's on the table that sound like concessions.  But with the price required.

 

It can be a game of take away. I will explain with an example in a sec.

 

Without some disclosure, an effort at transparency & honest effort; it will be forever hard to sell accountability!  There always will be criticism. Some which can be shrugged off. Simply shrugging it off just welcomes the mill bloggers who heap lies on top of the truth; which is closer to the middle then many will admit. As is blame. Take the lead!

 

Back to take away? Specifically world opinion on things such as 'the worlds largest outdoor prison?''  West Bank access. Address it head on willing to be accountable!

 

Every daily Update could start with a statement posted like in the spolier for 15 seconds.

 

  Hide contents

We understand a sentiment people are and were concerned about Gaza even before Oct 7.  Repeat & state, don't dwell, that Israel left Gaza unilaterally nearly 20 years ago. We have our reasons for what siege has been placed on Gaza. We invite anyone to open forum on how we should address these concerns;

 

- Between 2001 and 2014 we had recorded more than 20,000 rockets launched from Gaza into Southern Israel.

- Mostly at civilian targets.

- Most, the skies opened up, after Aug 2006, when we withdrew security measures that are still in place in West Bank.

- In 2008, 2012, 2014, 2021 we fought and suppressed full acts of war initiated by Hamas!

- Israel has arrested ____, and currently imprisons ____ for these LINK TO VARIOUS VIOLENT & OUTRIGHT TERRORIST ACTS. 

- We all know what occurred Oct 7.

- An issue for people, not Israel (?), worth discussing is the civil unrest MANY non Hamas civilians face in Gaza

- An issue for people, not Israel (?), is extensive civil war, civil distress, militant activity MOST minorities seem to suffer in MANY surrounding ME area's. 

 

We are and will be committed to a more autonomous position for Palestinians. Who, like all the regions people, need freedom of religion, right of determination, place!

 

The spoilers last sentence, appears to stray from, say, a Netanyahu long term policy? That Israel prefers a sense of unbalance or chaos within West Bank / Gaza.

 

Why prefer chaos?  The primary reason is if Hamas / PLO / PA Palestinians never establish themselves. They remain a threat Israel can extinguish any few years militarily.  A secondary reason exists, in that a percentage of Israli's, heck Jews who even recently migrated? And specifically including The Ben-Gvir's, Gallants, some of the hard liners who, as fact, are in the coalition. See territory and security zones as opportunity. This does get abused! There are many locations in Judea & Samaria, such people believe are also sacred, that Israel has a right to keep? Would even keep Gaza. Yes a minority, but they sway a lot of power, and influence, tolerance of bad behaviour.

 

Accepting, even discussing, a long term proposal requires a lot of that quiet discussion Roman?

 

I also believe in a spoiler statement making EVERYONE aware of what accountability Israel can offer! I actually appreciate that you cop, rather than question when I have posted what concerns I have about israel. You will have seen I have challenged Ilunga, numerous other Israel 'blamers' even if they acknowledge issues with Hamas. With asking what will Hamas, Palestinians commit to for peace! When commitments to solutions start becoming more public than blame?

 

Keep some stuff secret, sure; but what can Israel offer for peace Roman?

 

The biggest challenge is that even within Israel there are many opinions on peace, from Ben Gvirs on one side of the spectrum to Neturei Karta on the other. And proportional representation in Knesset isn’t helping. What I personally think? I honestly don’t know. Every direction I go, I always come back to reality that any negotiation has to have two sides willing to accept concessions. And while Israeli side in the past had people like that at the table (Rabin, Peres, Barak, Olmert), the other side seemed to treat any negotiations as an interim step before the ultimate goal. And I don’t know what needs to happen to remove that sense of mistrust that I have.

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Secrecy about what? There are plenty "critics of Israel" out there, even where there's nothing to criticize Israel for. They don't need my help. I'm really curious if I started a thread to discuss countless cases of Israel's positive influence on this world, how long will it take before llunga's of this board would pop in to "criticize"?

 

And to add to my feelings about Isrealis/Jews who I admire/have had some sort of positive impact on my life.

 

Starting with music, which is a huge part of my life, I love hundreds of bands/musicians and my favourite musician, and one of my favourite people full stop is a Jew, Mike Burkett.

 

Reading is another huge part of my life, after finding out about the holocaust and questioning my teacher about people who have written about the Jewish people, she put me onto Leon Uris.

I have read most of his books, Mila 18 and Exodus made deep impacts on me.

 

Yuval Noah Harari is another Jewish Author I admire.

Hannah Arendt.

Noam Chomsky. 

Maimonides. 

Albert Einstein.

Sophia " Zoe " Benjamin. 

And this is just a few of the Jewish authors I admire.

 

There are literally thousands of Jews/Isrealis that have not just made huge contributions to the arts, but made our planet a better place.

 

As I keep on stating roman, Israeli/Jews  are just like any other group of people, they have bad to good and everything in-between.

 

 

 

[Babych]

6 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Incorrect. But Israel is my family and I will try to clean our internal mess within the family, without advertising it to the world.

Are you Israeli? And currently fighting in the war?

 

This is an honest question - I apologize if you’ve answered it before.. I’m late to this party.

 

im asking bc you say Israeli is your family and also asked if I’ve ever been to war. I haven’t, thank god.

[RomanPer]

23 minutes ago, Babych said:

Are you Israeli? And currently fighting in the war?

 

This is an honest question - I apologize if you’ve answered it before.. I’m late to this party.

 

im asking bc you say Israeli is your family and also asked if I’ve ever been to war. I haven’t, thank god.

 

I have dual Israeli/Canadian citizenship, originally born in Ukraine, now living in Canada. This tattoo on my chest fully represents who I am.

I’m too old to fight wars now, but I fought my share in the past. My nephew is in Israeli reserve right now, presently in the West Bank. My cousin’s son committed suicide in Israel after battling with PTSD. Several of my classmates and their children are now fighting a war in Ukraine, defending their homes from russian orcs.

[Babych]

39 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I have dual Israeli/Canadian citizenship, originally born in Ukraine, now living in Canada. This tattoo on my chest fully represents who I am.

I’m too old to fight wars now, but I fought my share in the past. My nephew is in Israeli reserve right now, presently in the West Bank. My cousin’s son committed suicide in Israel after battling with PTSD. Several of my classmates and their children are now fighting a war in Ukraine, defending their homes from russian orcs.

I can’t imagine what you’ve gone through. And continue to deal with. 
 

My condolences for your losses. 
 

i pray that this foolishness ends quickly, on all fronts. And with a minimal loss of life.

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I like this comment.  I really like this comment! 

 

While i think some measures, certainly initial efforts may have to start in private? I applaud any effort to get in to the political cycle, stop many of the root causes to the conflict. Israel certainly contributes to some. At a higher level; would applaud putting some idea's on the table that sound like concessions.  But with the price required.

 

It can be a game of take away. I will explain with an example in a sec.

 

Without some disclosure, an effort at transparency & honest effort; it will be forever hard to sell accountability!  There always will be criticism. Some which can be shrugged off. Simply shrugging it off just welcomes the mill bloggers who heap lies on top of the truth; which is closer to the middle then many will admit. As is blame. Take the lead!

 

Back to take away? Specifically world opinion on things such as 'the worlds largest outdoor prison?''  West Bank access. Address it head on willing to be accountable!

 

Every daily Update could start with a statement posted like in the spolier for 15 seconds.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

We understand a sentiment people are and were concerned about Gaza even before Oct 7.  Repeat & state, don't dwell, that Israel left Gaza unilaterally nearly 20 years ago. We have our reasons for what siege has been placed on Gaza. We invite anyone to open forum on how we should address these concerns;

 

- Between 2001 and 2014 we had recorded more than 20,000 rockets launched from Gaza into Southern Israel.

- Mostly at civilian targets.

- Most, the skies opened up, after Aug 2006, when we withdrew security measures that are still in place in West Bank.

- In 2008, 2012, 2014, 2021 we fought and suppressed full acts of war initiated by Hamas!

- Israel has arrested ____, and currently imprisons ____ for these LINK TO VARIOUS VIOLENT & OUTRIGHT TERRORIST ACTS. 

- We all know what occurred Oct 7.

- An issue for people, not Israel (?), worth discussing is the civil unrest MANY non Hamas civilians face in Gaza

- An issue for people, not Israel (?), is extensive civil war, civil distress, militant activity MOST minorities seem to suffer in MANY surrounding ME area's. 

 

We are and will be committed to a more autonomous position for Palestinians. Who, like all the regions people, need freedom of religion, right of determination, place!

 

The spoilers last sentence, appears to stray from, say, a Netanyahu long term policy? That Israel prefers a sense of unbalance or chaos within West Bank / Gaza.

 

Why prefer chaos?  The primary reason is if Hamas / PLO / PA Palestinians never establish themselves. They remain a threat Israel can extinguish any few years militarily.  A secondary reason exists, in that a percentage of Israli's, heck Jews who even recently migrated? And specifically including The Ben-Gvir's, Gallants, some of the hard liners who, as fact, are in the coalition. See territory and security zones as opportunity. This does get abused! There are many locations in Judea & Samaria, such people believe are also sacred, that Israel has a right to keep? Would even keep Gaza. Yes a minority, but they sway a lot of power, and influence, tolerance of bad behaviour.

 

Accepting, even discussing, a long term proposal requires a lot of that quiet discussion Roman?

 

I also believe in a spoiler statement making EVERYONE aware of what accountability Israel can offer! I actually appreciate that you cop, rather than question when I have posted what concerns I have about israel. You will have seen I have challenged Ilunga, numerous other Israel 'blamers' even if they acknowledge issues with Hamas. With asking what will Hamas, Palestinians commit to for peace! When commitments to solutions start becoming more public than blame?

 

Keep some stuff secret, sure; but what can Israel offer for peace Roman?

 

 

Please don't call me an Israeli " blamer ", you know me better than that.

 

I have always stated that one can apportion blame to both Palestinians and Isrealis for this never ending conflict.

 

So many people are quick, and rightly so, to apportion blame to the Palestinians.

Very few call out Isreal for their part in this never ending conflict.

 

So much false information is posted in this thread in regards to Israel, and I seem to be the only one that wants to address this. 

 

It is evident to any rational person that the Palestinians have suffered far more since the inception of the state of Isreal, compared to the Isrealis.

 

I wonder how you would feel if you had soldiers walking your streets.

You have no hope for a better future for your kids.

You are stuck between Hamas' on one side, and the IDF on the other.

Your community is continually losing homes/land.

People threaten to kill you in your home while you sleep.

 

I have answered your challenge.

Even though my dream is a one state solution, what the international community and the Palestinians want, is a Palestinian state. 

Give it to them. 

How can things be any worse than what they are now ?

 

If they screw the pooch and continue to attack Israel after being given their own state, they will lose all credibility, and the backing of the international community.

 

You have no idea how pissed I am at Hamas', for bringing so much pain onto the Palestinian people for the last 20 years.