Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

^ The above is just my opinion. Here is another example where Ben G'vir is not really accomplishing what you would want yesterday. If you want dialogue?

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/8/13/israels-ben-gvir-leads-provocative-visit-to-al-aqsa-mosque

 

[Taxi]

7 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Please don't call me an Israeli " blamer ", you know me better than that.

 

I have always stated that one can apportion blame to both Palestinians and Isrealis for this never ending conflict.

 

So many people are quick, and rightly so, to apportion blame to the Palestinians.

Very few call out Isreal for their part in this never ending conflict.

 

So much false information is posted in this thread in regards to Israel, and I seem to be the only one that wants to address this. 

 

It is evident to any rational person that the Palestinians have suffered far more since the inception of the state of Isreal, compared to the Isrealis.

 

I wonder how you would feel if you had soldiers walking your streets.

You have no hope for a better future for your kids.

You are stuck between Hamas' on one side, and the IDF on the other.

Your community is continually losing homes/land.

People threaten to kill you in your home while you sleep.

 

I have answered your challenge.

Even though my dream is a one state solution, what the international community and the Palestinians want, is a Palestinian state. 

Give it to them. 

How can things be any worse than what they are now ?

 

If they screw the pooch and continue to attack Israel after being given their own state, they will lose all credibility, and the backing of the international community.

 

You have no idea how pissed I am at Hamas', for bringing so much pain onto the Palestinian people for the last 20 years.

 

The problem is that you don't actually do that. In fact, you habitually parrot, and even exaggerate, Hamas' propaganda. You talk about Palestinians being stuck with Hamas on one side. Maybe they should stop voting them into power?

[Optimist Prime]

12 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 the other side seemed to treat any negotiations as an interim step before the ultimate goal. And I don’t know what needs to happen to remove that sense of mistrust that I have.

This is where I am at too. In Syria even around y2k Al Asshat was building a city with no one in it. the translation from arabic to english was "The Future Home of the Future Widows of the Future Martyrs of the Future War to Eradicate Israel". I am not kidding. 

The fanatics among the muslim sects in the middle east see any negotiation or deal with Israel as an interim step towards the ultimate goal of removing Israel and Jews from the the middle east if not the world. 

That is a hard one to get over and plan for peace around. I am not talking about muslims in general, i am talking about the hardline fanatics: Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian leadership, Syrian Government. There is a lot there that simply won't stop until they are gone or Israel is gone. 

If the answers were easy, this would be solved already. 

[D.B Cooper]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

And the Palestinians don't keep voting Hamas' into power.

They voted them into power once, and they have had no elections since then and Hamas have kept power since.

Crushing any sort of opposition to their rule.

 

I dunno dude.  
You are the number 1 reason I don’t come to this thread often.   
You don’t seem to realize what you put out there.  
The condescension, mixed whatever wacky opinions you keep parroting…

 

Maybe look inward a bit more before telling people they are liars.  

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said:

I dunno dude.  
You are the number 1 reason I don’t come to this thread often.   
You don’t seem to realize what you put out there.  
The condescension, mixed whatever wacky opinions you keep parroting…

 

Maybe look inward a bit more before telling people they are liars.  

 

You obviously don't know that he has falsely accused me of stating that I denied Isrealis/Jews have a historical connection to Isreal/Palestine, when literally the page before I had mentioned the first and second temple, and other historical ties that the Jewish people have to that part of the world.

He has since tripled down on this.

 

Then he claimed that Isreal had not supported Hamas', from their inception up until the October 7 attack.

I have provided evidence from credible sources that they have indeed supported Hamas'.

Again he doubled down on that.

 

Then when the UN changed the death toll figures he claimed that there were less Palestinian deaths.

 

As I have posted, the UN did not claim there were less Palestinian deaths, they just couldn't identify all the bodies.

 

What you and @Taxi are doing is a classic propaganda technique.

Character assassination.

 

All your contributions to this thread are attacking my character.

Just like you are doing now.

 

 

 

 

[D.B Cooper]

20 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

You obviously don't know that he has falsely accused me of stating that I denied Isrealis/Jews have a historical connection to Isreal/Palestine, when literally the page before I had mentioned the first and second temple, and other historical ties that the Jewish people have to that part of the world.

He has since tripled down on this.

 

Then he claimed that Isreal had not supported Hamas', from their inception up until the October 7 attack.

I have provided evidence from credible sources that they have indeed supported Hamas'.

Again he doubled down on that.

 

Then when the UN changed the death toll figures he claimed that there were less Palestinian deaths.

 

As I have posted, the UN did not claim there were less Palestinian deaths, they just couldn't identify all the bodies.

 

What you and @Taxi are doing is a classic propaganda technique.

Character assassination.

 

All your contributions to this thread are attacking my character.

Just like you are doing now.

 

 

 

 

Sure dude.  
Or

Your posts have a history of pumping up communism, being a terrorist sympathizer, and parroting ’what about the children!’ Followed by downing folks for not having your same opinions as what you post.     
 

seriously dude, it’s like you don’t listen to yourself.  
 

Maybe it’s feels like I’m ’attacking Your character’ but I’m just attacking your posts and what you say.   
I am constantly turned off this thread because of this shit.  

I want facts and real news. 
Not someone constantly questioning others morals while seeming…….. off themselves.  
 

Kudos to folks in Ukraine thread for keeping it real. 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said:

Sure dude.  
Or

Your posts have a history of pumping up communism, being a terrorist sympathizer, and parroting ’what about the children!’ Followed by downing folks for not having your same opinions as what you post.     
 

seriously dude, it’s like you don’t listen to yourself.  
 

Maybe it’s feels like I’m ’attacking Your character’ but I’m just attacking your posts and what you say.   
I am constantly turned off this thread because of this shit.  

I want facts and real news. 
Not someone constantly questioning others morals while seeming…….. off themselves.  
 

Kudos to folks in Ukraine thread for keeping it real. 

 

My posts have a history of pumping up communism ?

I stated that when I was younger and first read Marx's communist manifesto, I was enamoured of the idea that every was " equal ", had an equal share.

I then went to say that communism would never work because it doesn't take into account human nature.

You would have made a great case to be on McCarthy's committee.

Do you still look for reds under your bed ? 

 

And where have I supported terrorism ?

Quote me.

 

Seriously, quote a post of mine where I have supported terrorism, or apologise and cut this bullshit.

 

The irony of something one like you who has a terrorist as his username, accusing some one of supporting terrorists is unbelievable.

 

I haven't downed anyone, in fact I apologised if people thought I didn't believe they cared about what is happening to the children in Gaza.

I guess you missed that post.

 

 

Feel free to block me, no one is forcing you to read my posts.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

On 8/15/2024 at 12:28 PM, SilentSam said:

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Al Jazeera suggesting, on the other hand, is gaining popularity in Israel?

 

 

Edited August 16 by Canuck Surfer

[Canuck Surfer]

Abbas has been everywhere, including Moscow.  Sounds they want to be (remain?) part of armed resistance. 

 

Or do not want to cross Sinwar? 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Sinwar seems to be making it clear he wants to dictate terms.  Clearly remain part of armed resistance (revolution?). 

 

Has less urgency to stop the war or return hostages in the peace process.

 

Will not accept an alternate group as adminstrational, or functional leaders of Gaza & the West Bank. Will not accept external peacekeepers, specifically not Arab groups.

 

   

[Canuck Surfer]

  

 

 

[Taxi]

16 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

You obviously don't know that he has falsely accused me of stating that I denied Isrealis/Jews have a historical connection to Isreal/Palestine, when literally the page before I had mentioned the first and second temple, and other historical ties that the Jewish people have to that part of the world.

He has since tripled down on this.

 

Then he claimed that Isreal had not supported Hamas', from their inception up until the October 7 attack.

I have provided evidence from credible sources that they have indeed supported Hamas'.

Again he doubled down on that.

 

Then when the UN changed the death toll figures he claimed that there were less Palestinian deaths.

 

As I have posted, the UN did not claim there were less Palestinian deaths, they just couldn't identify all the bodies.

 

What you and @Taxi are doing is a classic propaganda technique.

Character assassination.

 

All your contributions to this thread are attacking my character.

Just like you are doing now.

 

 

 

 

 

The idea that Israel supported Hamas from its inception is absurd. You have like 3 random out of context quotes that covers 40 years of history. Israel has been fighting Hamas since day 1. Israel provided didn't fight the Muslim Brotherhood, after they denounced violence. Israel arrested Yassin in 1984, after he got caught with weapons. Hamas was founded in 1987.

 

You're constantly going on about how Israel needs to do more to help Gazans. Israel allows funds to flow from Qatar to social services in Gaza, then you turn around and accuse Israel of funding Hamas. It's a joke. If Israel stifles Gaza in any way, it's collective punishment. If they allow help into Gaza, they are responsible for funding Hamas. 

 

Here's an idea. Maybe the Palestinians are people capable of making decisions, and not just pawns. 

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, Taxi said:

Here's an idea. Maybe the Palestinians are people capable of making decisions, and not just pawns. 

 

Interpretation of truth goes reported, then distorted, then extorted...

 

When the PLO was a power Israel funded groups including those that became Hamas. Even at times after. Much like the US funded, at one time, al Qaeda.  Powers of all kinds fund resistance groups.  Sometimes to dismantle, or just limit an existing problem. Enemy of my enemy stuff... Sometimes to back a side they hope to bring to power, but control or ally. 

 

Safe to say resistance groups do have their own goals, operations. Take 'aid' when they can to grow but don't always let themselves be led along like a fishing line. 

 

Cleary Hamas, whatever support happened, has become something nobody, Israel anyway, wants.  

[Canuck Surfer]

So!

 

If Israel was serious about long term peace?  These hooded goons should be hung in the streets. Prove to Arabic / Palestinian people a willingness to be accountable. Restrict abuse.  This is a 'security' zone, everyone deserves to be safe. And the settlements have to stop.

 

  

[Canuck Surfer]

Of course this is what Hamas has become. I have no problem with Israel controlling similar crimes.  But it starts, see last post, by policing your own.

 

Sinwar says Gazan's are revolutionaries, will surprise people (not me) with what they will tolerate as sacrifice.

 

I have asked those who support Palestinians to distance themselves from this thinking. 

 

From being less shocked by Hamas than Israel.

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

Unsure what to make of this for now... still digging.

 

Quote

Israeli Broadcasting Authority, citing security officials: Israeli army operations in Gaza have generally ended

Three hours old. 

[Optimist Prime]

 

nine hours ago:

 

Quote

The US "bridging proposal" "builds on areas of agreement over the past week, and bridges remaining gaps in the manner that allows for a swift implementation of the deal

 

[Optimist Prime]

[Optimist Prime]

 

 

Ahhh, pausing to allow a backlog of humanitarian aide to get into Gaza. Not completely done fighting. 

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

The idea that Israel supported Hamas from its inception is absurd. You have like 3 random out of context quotes that covers 40 years of history. Israel has been fighting Hamas since day 1. Israel provided didn't fight the Muslim Brotherhood, after they denounced violence. Israel arrested Yassin in 1984, after he got caught with weapons. Hamas was founded in 1987.

 

You're constantly going on about how Israel needs to do more to help Gazans. Israel allows funds to flow from Qatar to social services in Gaza, then you turn around and accuse Israel of funding Hamas. It's a joke. If Israel stifles Gaza in any way, it's collective punishment. If they allow help into Gaza, they are responsible for funding Hamas. 

 

Here's an idea. Maybe the Palestinians are people capable of making decisions, and not just pawns. 

 

You triple down on your lies when I have presented evidence from a very credible source. 

 

For the third time.

 

" Israels historical role in the rise of Hamas "

 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2023/11/21/world/israel-failed-policy/ 

 

" The international focus on the war on Gaza has helped obscure the fact that Israel in the 1980's aided the rise of the Islamist Hamas as a rival to the secular Palestinian Liberation Organisation, and it's dominant faction Yasser Arafats Fatah. Israel's policy was clearly influenced by the US's training and arming of the Mujahideen ( or Islamic holy warriors ) in Pakistan in multiple countries to wage jihad against Soviet forces in Afghanistan. 

 

 

" Hamas, for its part, is alleged to have emerged out of the Israeli financed Islamist movement in Gaza, with Israels then military governor in that territory Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev disclosing in 1981 that he had been given a budget for funding Palestinian Islamists to counter the rising power of the Palestinian secularists.

HAMAS, A SPIN-OFF OF THE PALESTINIAN BRANCH OF THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD WAS FORMERLY ESTABLISHED WITH ISRAELS SUPPORT SOON AFTER THE FIRST INTIFADA FLARED IN 1987 AS AN UPRISING AGAINST THE ISREALI OCCUPATION OF PALESTINIAN LAND'S. 

 

Isreal objective was twofold, to split the nationalist Palestinian movement led by Arafat and, more fundamentally to thwart the implementation of a two state solution for solving the protracted Israeli - Palestinian conflict. By aiding the rise of an Islamist group whose charter rejected recognising the Israeli state, Israel sought to undermine the idea of a two state solution, including curbing western support for an independent Palestinian homeland. 

 

Israel's spy agency mossad played a role in this divide and rule game in the occupied territories. In a 1984 book,  " The Other Side of Deception " Mossad whistleblower Victor Ostrovsky contended that aiding Hamas meshed with "Mossads general"  plan for an Arab world " run by fundamentalists " that would reject " any negotiations with the west " thereby leaving Isreal as " the only democratic, rational country in the region. Avner Cohen, a former Isreali religious affairs official involved in Gaza for over two decades told a newspaper interviewer in 2009 that " HAMAS, TO MY GREAT REGRET IS ISRAELS CREATION ".

 

Isreal by contrast, persisted with its covert nexus with Hamas. With the consent of Israel, Qatar, a long time sponsor of jihadi groups, funneled $1.8 billion to Hamas, just between 2012 and 2021 according to the Haaretz newspaper.

 

" Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who has been in power for much of the last decade and a half told a meeting of his Likud's party's Knesset members " anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas " adding " this is part of our strategy - to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank. "

 

" Isreal like the US, may have been guided by the proverb, " the enemy of my enemy is my friend ". But as history attests, " the enemy of my enemy "  far from being far from being a friend, has often openly turned into a foe. "

 

The credibility of my source 

The Japan Times

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/japan-times/

 

LEAST BIASED 

HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING

HIGH CREDIBILITY 

 

Israeli source 

 

" For Years Netanyahu Propped Up Hamas, now it has blown up in our faces.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

 

The credibility of 

The Times of Isreal 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/

 

LEFT- CENTRE BIAS

HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING

HIGH CREDIBILITY

 

Anyone who has followed this conflict knows that all this information is factual. 

 

This makes me think of the words of another one of my favourite Jewish people

 

" Military Intelligence is a contradiction in terms "

 

Julius Henry "Groucho" Marx 

 

And yes the Palestinians are pawns.

This is a well accepted fact.

Tell me, what would you do if you were a Palestinian living in Gaza ?

You claimed that they should stop voting th into power.

They only voted them in once into power in 2006.

In 2007 Hamas took out Fatah and since then they have ruled with an iron fist crushing any descent. 

Would you have the courage to risk your families lives and stand up to armed fanatical terrorist ?

I doubt it. 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Cleary Hamas, whatever support happened, has become something nobody, Israel anyway, wants.

 

@Ilunga , in spite of any support Hamas received.  They are on their own journey.  Certainly not taking cues from Bibi.

 

Citing such truths is still a blame game.  

 

Both sides need to make allowances for their enemy opposing party.
 

[Canuck Surfer]

46 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

And yes the Palestinians are pawns.

This is a well accepted fact.

Tell me, what would you do if you were a Palestinian living in Gaza ?

 

 

Here is a quote from one of the articles you posted.  This article, essentially said / says that Israel & Netanyahu 'got played.' 

 

My opinion is this quote below, in spite of credibility statements to truth or balance; is as biased as they come! Sure there are components of truth. Tell me anyone in Israel's government has not seen Hamas, who lobbed tens of thousands of missiles at Israel since 2005?  Launched three wars before Oct 7. All since Israel vacated Gaza! As anything other than a militant group.  Hence Israel's policy, which you condemn, of a full Gaza siege. Yes, they allowed work visa's and had some progressive policies designed to have better relations.  There was a belief, are still hoping there is a belief, not everyone in Gaza is Hamas.  

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

''Hamas became stronger and used the auspices of peace that Israelis so longed for as cover for its training, and hundreds of Israelis have paid with their lives for this massive omission.''

 

Back to opinion. It did turn out some who crossed the border for work, were in fact operatives. The failure was in intelligence & screening process. Not intent. Working with everyday Palestinians, who are not operatives obviously, ultimately is a key to peace.

 

Please, these articles are not impartial! Not only is it written to undercut Netanyahu. But likely by those who want an even harder line in the sand vs Hamas & settlement.

[Ilunga]

19 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

@Ilunga , in spite of any support Hamas received.  They are on their own journey.  Certainly not taking cues from Bibi.

 

Citing such truths is still a blame game.  

 

Both sides need to make allowances for their enemy opposing party.
 

 

 

As I have stated before, factual/truthful information is important to me.

 

It is also important in the context of the history of this conflict.

 

As you well know, I believe we should all take responsibility for our own actions.

I don't blame others for my mistakes.

I own them.

 

The same can be said for Hamas'.

I am not making excuses for them. 

 

As I keep stating they are a terrorist organisation that abuses their own people, and attacks Israel, killing and injuring Isrealis. 

 

 

The fact of the matter is that Israel, when it suited them, aided and abbetted Hamas', virtually up until the October 7 attack. 

 

Why have so many  people across the world, and for so long, felt that the Palestinians are victims of injustice ?

 

You know me, we have hung out.

You know exactly what sort of person I am. 

 

I know exactly what sort of person you are, a person with a good heart.

That is the only criteria I have for people that I allow into my life. 

 

If citing such truths is a blame game, then any discussion about past or present events is blaming one side or the other.

 

 

It's not so much about apportioning blame, it's about cause and effect.

The reasons/events that fuel this never ending conflict. 

 

If a person enables someone/something in their actions, then they have contributed to the eventual outcome.

Of course Hamas will do what they want to do no matter what, however the Isrealis, at certain points in time, when it suited them to do so, enabled Hamas'.

 

And as the Times of Israel headline stated, it blew up in their faces.

These things are facts.

 

Would you like to be continually called a liar brother ?

When you are telling the truth.

 

Like I am pissed mate.

Being called a Terrorist.

Being told I will have my head rammed into piss.

 

All for telling the truth.