Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

39 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

 

Here is a quote from one of the articles you posted.  This article, essentially said / says that Israel & Netanyahu 'got played.' 

 

My opinion is this quote below, in spite of credibility statements to truth or balance; is as biased as they come! Sure there are components of truth. Tell me anyone in Israel's government has not seen Hamas, who lobbed tens of thousands of missiles at Israel since 2005?  Launched three wars before Oct 7. All since Israel vacated Gaza! As anything other than a militant group.  Hence Israel's policy, which you condemn, of a full Gaza siege. Yes, they allowed work visa's and had some progressive policies designed to have better relations.  There was a belief, are still hoping there is a belief, not everyone in Gaza is Hamas.  

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

''Hamas became stronger and used the auspices of peace that Israelis so longed for as cover for its training, and hundreds of Israelis have paid with their lives for this massive omission.''

 

Back to opinion. It did turn out some who crossed the border for work, were in fact operatives. The failure was in intelligence & screening process. Not intent. Working with everyday Palestinians, who are not operatives obviously, ultimately is a key to peace.

 

Please, these articles are not impartial! Not only is it written to undercut Netanyahu. But likely by those who want an even harder line in the sand vs Hamas & settlement.

 

So do you doubt Netanyahu made that statement about bolstering Hamas' ?

 

That was the reason I posted that article. 

 

That publication has a reputation for high factual reporting and high credibility. 

 

Here is another article from another source 

 

" Why Netanyahu Bolstered Hamas " 

 

" The Israeli Prime Minister followed a decades old - divide - and - rule strategy that fuels endless war "

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/

 

" Wars help hide Political scandals. The ongoing Isreali assualt on Gaza has been singularly useful to prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in sideling popular anger at his governments numerous failings. "

 

 

" The same is true of Netanyahu's  longstanding policy of bolstering Hamas rule in Gaza, including encouraging Israels de facto ally Qatar to finance the terrorist organisation. While the much respected Israeli newspaper Haaretz has covered this issue, it has largely been ignored by the international press. "

 

The credibility of 

The Nation 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-nation/

 

LEFT BIAS 

HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING

HIGH CREDIBILITY

 

Another Isreali source

 

" A brief history of the Netanyahu - Hamas alliance" 

 

For fourteen years Israels policy was to keep Hamas in power, the pogrom of October 7 2024 helps the Israeli Prime Minister preserve his own rule "

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000

 

The credibility of 

Haaretz 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/haaretz/

 

LEFT BIAS 

HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING

HIGH CREDIBILITY

 

If one source tells you something you listen, if two, three multiple sources that have high credibility tell you the same thing, that makes what they are telling you very credible.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

57 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

So do you doubt Netanyahu made that statement about bolstering Hamas' ?

 

Instead of insisting on credibility?

 

Read the reply.  I am fully aware Bibi bolstered Hamas at times.  

 

Hamas is still who they are.  Which is terrorists. They would have found a way to be so regardless because it was their objective.

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

The fact of the matter is that Israel, when it suited them, aided and abbetted Hamas', virtually up until the October 7 attack.

 

I already agreed they did. As you say; context matters?

 

Israel also made 6 different attempts to assassinate Deif, 3 to kill Haniyeh & multiple attempts to assassinate Sinwar. The three most prominent leaders of this regime. Hamas launched thousands upon thousands of missile attacks, dozens of terrorists attacks designed to derail any peace talks that were happening with alternate leaders. Launched three wars & planned Oct 7 for a period exceeding a decade. That is equally true in all cases.

 

They were not Brothers in Arms. I would recommend you associate grey, not black and white to some of the truth conclusions made from this suggestion.

 

* Perhaps Hamas were selling the illusion of being willing to work with Israel & Likud? 

* Perhaps Mossad were just infiltrating Hamas for the assassinations we are now seeing? 

 

Both are probably closer to absolute truth, hidden motives. Even if some attempts to get along were either made, or actually genuine at some point in time. Plenty of activities which suggest anything but allegiance.  If that is what you are suggesting? Creating so much distrust; Which is why there is a lack of peace.

 

 

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Instead of insisting on credibility?

 

Read the reply.  I am fully aware Bibi bolstered Hamas at times.  

 

Hamas is still who they are.  Which is terrorists. They would have found a way to be so regardless because it was their objective.

 

So would you like to be called a liar ?

 

When you are telling the truth ? 

 

I am sick of that hasbara troll calling me a liar, when I have stated factual information, from many credible sources, including Israeli sources.

 

FFS mate he stated I denied that the Isrealis/Jews had any connection to the land of Israel, when I had literally the page before his claim, made statements about the history of the Jewish  people in Israel, dating back to the first temple. 

 

You state so much about the politics in the region, not just Isreal/Palestine.

I don't state you are blaming anyone.

It adds context to the discussion.

 

 

We have a shitload of people supporting Isreal.

I support Isrealis right to live in peace and security.

FFS I support all peoples right to these things. 

 

Here it is in caps for the uncounted time.

 

BOTH SIDES HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THIS NEVER ENDING CONFLICT.

BOTH SIDES HAVE SUFFERED.

 

Again it gets down to who has suffered more over the last 70 years.

Clearly that is the Palestinians. 

 

Again the majority of the people are going into bat for the Isrealis.

 

I am going into bat for the " average" Palestinian, that just wants safety, security and a better future for their kids. 

 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

11 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

So would you like to be called a liar ?

 

When you are telling the truth ? 

 

I don't think you are lying.

 

These are facts, not truths, to be interpretated. Absolutely taken with a grain of salt. The suggestion you imply as you make your statements?

 

Are actually quite dangerous. Ignores a tremendous amount of other related facts! 

 

Imply solutions which are not likely.

 

* For example if Israel simply admitted guilt; does as Sinwar requested earlier this week. Withdrew unilaterally from Gaza, rebuilt Gaza and accepted that the PA, external sources or other intermediaries would not be part of administration moving forward. Nor would Hamas commit to a peaceful view of Israel. Because they are guilty?

 

* Agreed to stop supporting Hamas...

 

Would we have peace? The last bullet point is of course trolling a leading question.  But its the leading question it sounds like you have been making? Read your posts. We are in this position because Bibi supported Hamas! People are reacting because we all know the situation is waaay more complicated than the simple truths you are quoting.

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I already agreed they did. As you say; context matters?

 

Israel also made 6 different attempts to assassinate Deif, 3 to kill Haniyeh & multiple attempts to assassinate Sinwar. The three most prominent leaders of this regime. Hamas launched thousands upon thousands of missile attacks, dozens of terrorists attacks designed to derail any peace talks that were happening with alternate leaders. Launched three wars & planned Oct 7 for a period exceeding a decade. That is equally true in all cases.

 

They were not Brothers in Arms. I would recommend you associate grey, not black and white to some of the truth conclusions made from this suggestion.

 

* Perhaps Hamas were selling the illusion of being willing to work with Israel & Likud? 

* Perhaps Mossad were just infiltrating Hamas for the assassinations we are now seeing? 

 

Both are probably closer to absolute truth, hidden motives. Even if some attempts to get along were either made, or actually genuine at some point in time. Plenty of activities which suggest anything but allegiance.  If that is what you are suggesting? Creating so much distrust; Which is why there is a lack of peace.

 

 

 

It is clear that the leadership on both sides don't want an end to this never ending conflict.

Each has their various reasons for this.  

Meanwhile life for an " average " Palestinian sucks, to put it mildly. 

 

I keep on hearing that Isreal is the only  democracy, the good guys.

Well if you are the good guy, surely you are the side that starts reconciliation.  

 

 

And while I certainly condone the killing of Hamas' leaders, do you seriously believe that Palestinians who have watched their families members killed in this current phase will not carry vengeance in their hearts.

Violence begets violence. 

 

How many times do I have to post that study by a retired American General who expertise was counter - terrorism.

He stated that for every civilian killed, that " creates " 10 terrorists. 

 

This is only an opinion piece,  dated 2 days ago however in it it states 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/14/us/politics/israel-military-gaza-war.html

 

 

" Hamas has been so damaged in the war that it's officials have told international negotiators it is willing to give up civilian control of Gaza to an independent group after a ceasefire is in place. How long a Hamas will be willing to give up a measure of its power will depend on what happens after a ceasefire, and what concessions Israel is prepared to make, American officials said. " 

 

Even if Hamas relinquishes power, as I have pointed out, what about the Palestinians who want vengeance for the death of their loved ones.

Just like the Isrealis want vengeance for the death of their loved ones. 

 

These guys are the Hatfields and McCoys of the middle east. 

 

" And the circle of hatred continues until we react " 

 

Rage against the Machine 

[Ilunga]

19 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I don't think you are lying.

 

These are facts, not truths, to be interpretated. Absolutely taken with a grain of salt. The suggestion you imply as you make your statements?

 

Are actually quite dangerous. Ignores a tremendous amount of other related facts! 

 

Imply solutions which are not likely.

 

* For example if Israel simply admitted guilt; does as Sinwar requested earlier this week. Withdrew unilaterally from Gaza, rebuilt Gaza and accepted that the PA, external sources or other intermediaries would not be part of administration moving forward. Nor would Hamas commit to a peaceful view of Israel. Because they are guilty?

 

* Agreed to stop supporting Hamas...

 

Would we have peace? The last bullet point is of course trolling a leading question.  But its the leading question it sounds like you have been making? Read your posts. We are in this position because Bibi supported Hamas! People are reacting because we all know the situation is waaay more complicated than the simple truths you are quoting.

 

 

I know you don't.

Thanks for saying that.

 

However it really hurts when some keyboard warrior accuses you of something that goes against your moral foundation. 

As @bishopshodan noted, we have been called pacifists, idealists, and these terms are meant as insults. 

 

From what I know @bishopshodan while he is a gentle soul, he is not someone you want to fuck with. 

 

I know you want peace.

I know that you know that I want peace. 

 

And fuck those that think it is idealistic and pacifistic to want to 

 

 

 

Edit 

Just watching the vid and seeing scenes of student being beings bashed and treated in the same manner back then, as they are know.

 

We now know who stands on the right side of history in regards to those protests.

 

History always catches up with you.

Edited August 17 by Ilunga

[Canuck Surfer]

36 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Again the majority of the people are going into bat for the Isrealis.

 

There have been rallies with as many as 1/2 million people. In a dozen or more cities & on large scale in 50 plus.  All barracking for Israel to either step down in this conflict.  Many who want them eliminated.

 

There is an arrest warrant out for Netanyahu at the ICC. Supported by 50 plus countries.

 

The world has 70 times the Arabic population & well over 100 times the Muslim population compared to Jewish. These populations side en-masse with the Palestinian cause.

 

There is a contingent that believes picking on Israel is antisemitism.  A truth which exists but is far, from absolute. Israel has its followers and countries like the US and UK who support them.  But its a political football for them more than ever. 

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

There have been rallies with as many as 1/2 million people. In a dozen or more cities & on large scale in 50 plus.  All barracking for Israel to either step down in this conflict.  Many who want them eliminated.

 

There is an arrest warrant out for Netanyahu at the ICC. Supported by 50 plus countries.

 

The world has 70 times the Arabic population & well over 100 times the Muslim population compared to Jewish. These populations side en-masse with the Palestinian cause.

 

There is a contingent that believes picking on Israel is antisemitism.  A truth which exists but is far, from absolute. Israel has its followers and countries like the US and UK who support them.  But its a political football for them more than ever. 

 

For sure there is both anti semitism and Islamaphobia in most societies. 

 

As a kid, racism perplexed me, as a teenager/adult it grew to be one of the few things I hate.

Hate being such a waste of emotion.

 

A person asked had people ever fought in a war.

 

I haven't been to war per se, however fighting racist skinheads in the western suburbs of Melbourne felt like a Warzone.

Theses guys were true neo Nazi's.

They had Nazi tattoos and memorabilia.

They not only hated Asians, all the Vietnamese that had come to Melbourne after the war, they hated Jews. 

Armed with batons and iron bars these fights were extremely dangerous.

It was because we were off our heads on drugs and alcohol that we probably didn't realise how dangerous they were. 

 

I know I quote my favourite Jewish person a lot, it's his lyricism I admire the most. 

 

" It's ok, allow yourself a little hate

Hatred is not so bad, when directed at injustice 

You can turn the other cheek, just don't turn the other way " 

 

Mike Burkett 

[Optimist Prime]

27 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

There is a contingent that believes picking on Israel is antisemitism.  A truth which exists but is far, from absolute. Israel has its followers and countries like the US and UK who support them.  But its a political football for them more than ever. 

I am niether for nor against Israel in this conflict, they are the jetsons, obviously and Hamas is the flintstones. Stuck with Hamas are all the innocents. But I do want to explain my full support for Israel, and I am open to being wrong, incorrect or not quite hitting it on the head even but here goes. 

 

First Edit: that sounded conflicted but I meant it, just not the best words. I wouldn't support israel doing this at all, 100% opposed to this if it wasn't the government of Gaza that opened this war. Now they must be stopped and so i fully support Israels work to stop Hamas. I could care less in general about the nation of israel other than because of our historical obligation...does that make more sense, after reading the below bit?

To me, after ww2, everthing we run our rules based world on today was formulated anew. UN instead of League of Nations: the victorious allies were almost enemies before hitler shot himself, and it was a race to the lead in the dying days of the war, for future footing in the global hierarchy. Out of that, the west, and Yeah russia too, just sort of created Israel as some kind of booby prize for the absolutely horrific things Jews went through, were going through before hitler and are going through today still, in many places around the globe. 

Having stood with the formation of Israel we the west chose to help, aid and abet the Israeli's through now 80 years of shit...16 times in wars with their arab neighbours with the absolute and undeniable goal of wiping israel off the map. 

If we the west, after basically moving a massive number of people from around the globe TO Israel, if we now pull our support and say bah, enough of that..and then IF Israel can't defend itself from brutal terroristic regimes, Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas and now the Houthies of Yemen (after arguably half the arab world softened its stance on Israel over literally 80 years time... If we say enough and cut the young nation off militarily and then IF they for whatever reason as the  Jetsons are felled by these opponents, the hardcore fanatics who run those places and people I just mentioned...it will not be a peace negotiation or a surrender, it will be a slaughter. We all every one of us know that if Hamas was winning, no Jewish person within 20 miles of Gaza would be safe or even possibly not alive anymore. That is beyond a fact. 

I am not talking about the people of Gaza, I am talking about their government. They voted them in once, not a single election since, yes, but at the day of the Oct bloodbath Hamas was supported by over 2/3rds of Gazans from political polling around the place up to then. 

So because I refuse to allow citizens of Israel to die like a stag taken down by fire ants in massive ball of hate, I am with Israel. Gazan every day people don't deserve this, but all of Israel doesn't deserve the government nestled in it like an abcess to randomly execute every jew they can every 5 to 10 years. It has to stop, Hamas has to be stopped. 

 

and please don't call me a Hasbara troll, rofl. glad you guys got back to better speaking terms on your own.

[Optimist Prime]

17 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

For sure there is both anti semitism and Islamaphobia in most societies. 

 

As a kid, racism perplexed me, as a teenager/adult it grew to be one of the few things I hate.

Hate being such a waste of emotion.

 

A person asked had people ever fought in a war.

 

I haven't been to war per se, however fighting racist skinheads in the western suburbs of Melbourne felt like a Warzone.

Theses guys were true neo Nazi's.

They had Nazi tattoos and memorabilia.

They not only hated Asians, all the Vietnamese that had come to Melbourne after the war, they hated Jews. 

Armed with batons and iron bars these fights were extremely dangerous.

It was because we were off our heads on drugs and alcohol that we probably didn't realise how dangerous they were. 

 

I know I quote my favourite Jewish person a lot, it's his lyricism I admire the most. 

 

" It's ok, allow yourself a little hate

Hatred is not so bad, when directed at injustice 

You can turn the other cheek, just don't turn the other way " 

 

Mike Burkett 

This sounds trite, but I am with you fighting skinhead nazi's... you just took me back to moshing in a ska-fest pit one summer, everyone was cool and the vibe was perfect...and a bunch of racist assholes started with with some friends, it was almost like the movie the warriors from the 70, pool cues to the teeth, broken arms, we had a riot, literally. Basically defending everyones right to be there and dance, crazy ass skinheads man. very similar description as i presume you were in Australia at the time? 

 

[Ilunga]

27 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I am niether for nor against Israel in this conflict, they are the jetsons, obviously and Hamas is the flintstones. Stuck with Hamas are all the innocents. But I do want to explain my full support for Israel, and I am open to being wrong, incorrect or not quite hitting it on the head even but here goes. 

To me, after ww2, everthing we run our rules based world on today was formulated anew. UN instead of League of Nations: the victorious allies were almost enemies before hitler shot himself, and it was a race to the lead in the dying days of the war, for future footing in the global hierarchy. Out of that, the west, and Yeah russia too, just sort of created Israel as some kind of booby prize for the absolutely horrific things Jews went through, were going through before hitler and are going through today still, in many places around the globe. 

Having stood with the formation of Israel we the west chose to help, aid and abet the Israeli's through now 80 years of shit...16 times in wars with their arab neighbours with the absolute and undeniable goal of wiping israel off the map. 

If we the west, after basically moving a massive number of people from around the globe TO Israel, if we now pull our support and say bah, enough of that..and then IF Israel can't defend itself from brutal terroristic regimes, Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas and now the Houthies of Yemen (after arguably half the arab world softened its stance on Israel over literally 80 years time... If we say enough and cut the young nation off militarily and then IF they for whatever reason as the  Jetsons are felled by these opponents, the hardcore fanatics who run those places and people I just mentioned...it will not be a peace negotiation or a surrender, it will be a slaughter. We all every one of us know that if Hamas was winning, no Jewish person within 20 miles of Gaza would be safe or even possibly not alive anymore. That is beyond a fact. 

I am not talking about the people of Gaza, I am talking about their government. They voted them in once, not a single election since, yes, but at the day of the Oct bloodbath Hamas was supported by over 2/3rds of Gazans from political polling around the place up to then. 

So because I refuse to allow citizens of Israel to die like a stag taken down by fire ants in massive ball of hate, I am with Israel. Gazan every day people don't deserve this, but all of Israel doesn't deserve the government nestled in it like an abcess to randomly execute every jew they can every 5 to 10 years. It has to stop, Hamas has to be stopped. 

 

I am in total agreement with most of this post.

 

It is not racist to say, that is was western guilt, for well over a millenia of persecution/pogroms culminating in the holocaust, that " western " nations backed the formation of the state of Israel in Isreal/Palestine.

There is also no doubt that a great many Jewish people feel a historical/spiritual connection to this land.  

 

You talk about a rules based world order, and that's where we start to question, which rules, apply to which nations.

The message this war sends to some nations, especially in the south pacific, seems very hypocritical to them. 

 

 

These are just opinion pieces, as the we perceive a rules based order in different ways.

As always the key is to " walk a mile in the other person's shoes "

 

" Will the war in Gaza become a breaking point for the rules based international - order 

 

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2024/01/will-war-gaza-become-breaking-point-rules-based-international-order

 

Credibility of 

Chatham House

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/chatham-house-bias/

 

LEAST BIASED 

HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING

HIGH CREDIBILITY 

 

 

" How Joe Biden sabotaged the world based world order " 

" By denying that Israel has violated international humanitarian law in Gaza, Washington is discrediting itself and the order that it claims to uphold. "

 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/05/10/biden-israel-gaza-arms-rules-based-order/

 

Credibility of 

Foreign Policy 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/foreign-policy/

 

LEAST BIASED 

HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING

HIGH CREDIBILITY 

 

 

" Why the west should stop talking about a rules based world order " 

" This vague hypocritical mantra designed by the US dominated world that no longer exists is harming international law " 

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/geopolitics/2024/06/why-the-west-should-stop-talking-about-the-rules-based-order

 

Credibility of that source 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-statesman/

 

LEFT BIAS 

HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING

HIGH CREDIBILITY

 

I could post more articles that state much the same thing.

 

These are " western " sources.

Again, if one source tells you something, you listen, go maybe, however if many sources tell you the same thing... Well you have to give that idea the credibility it deserves.

[Ilunga]

27 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

This sounds trite, but I am with you fighting skinhead nazi's... you just took me back to moshing in a ska-fest pit one summer, everyone was cool and the vibe was perfect...and a bunch of racist assholes started with with some friends, it was almost like the movie the warriors from the 70, pool cues to the teeth, broken arms, we had a riot, literally. Basically defending everyones right to be there and dance, crazy ass skinheads man. very similar description as i presume you were in Australia at the time? 

 

 

Western suburbs of Melbourne.

 

This is an accurate depiction of the sort of guys we were fighting, and the fights themselves.

 

This was Russell Crowes breakthrough role in a movie called Romper Stomper. 

He, and other actors hung out in pubs watching the skinheads, studying them, to play them in this movie.

Made around the time we were punching on with them. 

 

 

 

In many ways it's an Australian version of American History X.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

I am not absolute in support for either side. I trend, heavily, to supporting Israel.

 

* In 1948 localized place keepers those that were asked to partition refused to offer Israel a state.

* More Arabic countries have accepted a peace with Israel since?

   >> Often with an aid, economic or military support package from the US, at times, more originally, from the UK and France. 

   >> ie it could be argued they have been bought?

   >> Regardless popular opinion even amongst those countries does not trend to accepting Israel.

* All surrounding countries went to war in 1948 against Israel.

   >> Many of the Palestinian 'victims' of that war? Were displaced by Arabic sources.

   >> Arguably for their own safety? As they full intended to attack, remove the Jews.

* Israel only exists as a state because they won that war, subsequent wars.

* Those currently in charge of the Palestinian cause have dappled with two state solutions?

* Some administrations prior.

* Failed because too many are / were sworn against an Israeli state.

* Did not have a peoples mandate to make peace.

* In some cases because of other militant groups, some internal position.

 

I also side with Israel as they have been a minority, victimized in many places around the world to need a home. Remain to only exist because they maintain the military strength.  I do not support Israel expanding or abusing their position which has occurred.

 

I do believe Palestinians were also victimized, to an extent, by 'sweetheart deals' made by the British & French, others when partitioning the area. Not just by war. What is Israel was to be portioned, not exclusively Jewish or Zionist. Among sweetheart deals were to groups that became the Kingdoms of Iraq  & Jordan specifically, to brothers. Neither whom were reflecting majority populations. Also Syria, Lebanon & the Saudi kingdom. Arrangements leading to such deals awarded the contacts and these nations at the expense of Palestinains.  Especially Jordan, because the deals had arrangements that suited Britain. The local established countries made agreements that bypassed the needs of these people, perhaps Britain thought they were embedded with the Jordanian King?

 

Regardless remaining Palestinians did not wish to award any part to Zionists or the Jewish state.

 

[Ilunga]

16 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

I am not absolute in support for either side. I trend, heavily, to supporting Israel.

 

* In 1948 localized place keepers those that were asked to partition refused to offer Israel a state.

* More Arabic countries have accepted a peace with Israel since?

   >> Often with an aid, economic or military support package from the US, at times, more originally, from the UK and France. 

   >> ie it could be argued they have been bought?

   >> Regardless popular opinion even amongst those countries does not trend to accepting Israel.

* All surrounding countries went to war in 1948 against Israel.

   >> Many of the Palestinian 'victims' of that war? Were displaced by Arabic sources.

   >> Arguably for their own safety? As they full intended to attack, remove the Jews.

* Israel only exists as a state because they won that war, subsequent wars.

* Those currently in charge of the Palestinian cause have dappled with two state solutions?

* Some administrations prior.

* Failed because too many are / were sworn against an Israeli state.

* Did not have a peoples mandate to make peace.

* In some cases because of other militant groups, some internal position.

 

I also side with Israel as they have been a minority, victimized in many places around the world to need a home. Remain to only exist because they maintain the military strength.  I do not support Israel expanding or abusing their position which has occurred.

 

I do believe Palestinians were also victimized, to an extent, by 'sweetheart deals' made by the British & French, others when partitioning the area. Not just by war. What is Israel was to be portioned, not exclusively Jewish or Zionist. Among sweetheart deals were to groups that became the Kingdoms of Iraq  & Jordan specifically, to brothers. Neither whom were reflecting majority populations. Also Syria, Lebanon & the Saudi kingdom. Arrangements leading to such deals awarded the contacts and these nations at the expense of Palestinains.  Especially Jordan, because the deals had arrangements that suited Britain. The local established countries made agreements that bypassed the needs of these people, perhaps Britain thought they were embedded with the Jordanian King?

 

Regardless remaining Palestinians did not wish to award any part to Zionists or the Jewish state.

 

 

Here's what I support.

 

Remember my post about the lady who donated her family's land in the Golan Heights to a peace project  ?

 

Remember her words that I quoted 

 

 " You may call me a dreamer " 

 

 

 

 

But she's not the only one.

[Canuck Surfer]

8 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

 

Bolton figures the separation between Hamas & Israel remains too far for an effective agreement.  

 

I disagree with Bolton who says this really is not a war between Hamas & Israel. It's an Israeli / Iran conflict. I would not disagree that they are the primary support mechanism. Ideological inspiration for Hamas.  Perhaps / Certainly this conflict might not be exactly where it is at this moment without them?  But Palestinians have wanted their home, a home, since long before the current regime has been in power in Iran. That said, you have to live in the now. 

 

He does say two interesting things;

 

* He says Iran should be embarrassed because it has not owned up to any accountability for how badly Palestinians / Gaza have been trounced since Oct 7.

* He says the REAL reason Saudi's and others were gearing up to side with Israel? Is because of their fear of Iran, a factor also because US policy is becoming impotent.

 

The word he used was ''feckless.'' Regarding US policy. Its clear he blames Iran for gearing up Hamas, a Sunni group, when there is no effective deterrent.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Some decorum issues? LOL

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Assassination for suggesting peace with Israel?

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

6 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Assassination for suggesting peace with Israel?

 

 

On brand and why these groups must be defeated. 

[Bob Long]

19 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

On brand and why these groups must be defeated. 

 

Outside of oil, what have the Saudi leaders contributed to the planet in the last 70 years?

 

[Gurn]

23 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Outside of oil, what have the Saudi leaders contributed to the planet in the last 70 years?

 

The aqueducts- nope that was the Romans.

the sanitation- nope that was the Romans

the roads- goes without saying- wait that was the Romans as well

Irrigation- oops romans again

 

 

[Jester13]

34 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Outside of oil, what have the Saudi leaders contributed to the planet in the last 70 years?

 

The downfall of professional golf?

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, Gurn said:

The aqueducts- nope that was the Romans.

the sanitation- nope that was the Romans

the roads- goes without saying- wait that was the Romans as well

Irrigation- oops romans again

 

 

 

Well if we are going back that far we need to credit the Arab world with many things like algebra.

 

But since WW2.... 

[Gurn]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

Well if we are going back that far we need to credit the Arab world with many things like algebra.

 

But since WW2.... 

Was a time when the arabic world was leading in so many ways.

Libraries

medicine

astrology

to name a couple.

however, since then, it's been a rough go.

--------------------------------------------------

I read a Louis Lamour novel " The Lonesome Gods' and one of the characters mentions that the people of old California had it too easy.

Always warm, plenty of food, easy life made it hard to notice that slippage was occurring.

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Gurn said:

Was a time when the arabic world was leading in so many ways.

Libraries

medicine

astrology

to name a couple.

however, since then, it's been a rough go.

--------------------------------------------------

I read a Louis Lamour novel " The Lonesome Gods' and one of the characters mentions that the people of old California had it too easy.

Always warm, plenty of food, easy life made it hard to notice that slippage was occurring.

 

And just incase the usual suspect gets in a knot I'm only talking about the leaders.