Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

Hamas is an Arabic acronym for the Islamic Resistance Movement. 

 

 “Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.” This was the movements first statement in Dec 1987, remains its ideology. Not my bias.

 

It has called on members of the other two Abrahamic faiths—Judaism and Christianity—to accept Islamic rule in the Middle East. “It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror,” it decreed.  

 

Which is also why they are committed to the death of Israel. Its not anti semitism. It is a genocidal statement they will kill Jews & anyone else that stand in their way. A statement they would repeat Oct 7 over, and over, and over? Is not out of character. Is not misinformation by a liberal left, or Christian Right press Ilunga. Sacrificing children or women as human shields affords martyrdom, eternity in Paradise is what they teach.  

 

They want their deadliest killers, and convicted terrorists returned at rates of 20 or 50 to 1. For 30 or 35 civilian hostages, some dead. To continue this quest.

 

It does not sound like a good deal?

[RomanPer]

Next time you hear screaming around the world about Israel bombing Hezbollah in south Lebanon, remember these photos.

 

This is not Gaza. This is Israeli town of Kiryat Shmona in the north of Israel (I think @Optimist Prime visited that town). It’s ghost town now. It’s being destroyed by Hezbollah rockets.

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

Next time you hear screaming around the world about Israel bombing Hezbollah in south Lebanon, remember these photos.

 

This is not Gaza. This is Israeli town of Kiryat Shmona in the north of Israel (I think @Optimist Prime visited that town). It’s ghost town now. It’s being destroyed by Hezbollah rockets.

Yeah I loved it there, very cool little place, when there weren't attacks from Lebanon incoming. 

[Canuck Surfer]

Hamas' uncompromising demands: A glimpse into the terrorist group's strategic motives

 

A closer look at Hamas' five key demands in the hostage release negotiations reveals its broader aspirations for consolidating power and influence.

The five demands that Hamas has put forth in the negotiations for the release of the Israeli hostages are aimed at preserving its status as the dominant power in the Gaza Strip, allowing its members to emerge from hiding and resume their routine activities without fear of Israeli retaliation, enabling the reconstruction of its military capabilities, and capitalizing on the political gains from the war in the West Bank and the Palestinian Authority.

 

* Irreversible cessation of hostilities

* No disarmament for Hamas

* Return of displaced Gazans: Accepting tunnel reality

* Consolidating power in the West Bank and PA

* Continued action against Hamas necessary

 

Spoiler

Hamas' insistence on receiving international guarantees that Israel will not violate the terms of the deal is intended to maintain international involvement in the conflict, anticipating that pressure will be primarily directed toward Israel, serving Hamas' interests at every stage.

 

The notion that Hamas could agree to a ceasefire for the exchange and then renew hostilities under some pretext to achieve its goals overlooks the dynamics inherent in such processes, which would effectively prevent such a scenario.

The key costs Israel would incur under the proposed deal include ending the war without destroying Hamas, allowing the reconstruction of its military capabilities in Gaza, creating conditions that enhance its standing in the West Bank, heightening risks due to the involvement of hundreds of released militants in terrorist activities, and potentially encouraging increased use of kidnappings by terrorist groups emboldened by the current outcome.

 

Moreover, on a psychological level, the deal would be perceived as a successful conclusion to the war Hamas imposed on Israel and a failure by the IDF to achieve its military objectives despite the prolonged fighting. Any decision by the government to support or reject the deal is legitimate, provided it is made with a sober assessment of the comprehensive advantages and risks it entails.

In response to US Secretary of State Antony Blinken's accusation of obstructing efforts to reach an agreement, Hamas once again outlined its primary demands in exchange for releasing the captives: "A comprehensive agreement based on a permanent ceasefire, complete Israeli withdrawal from the Strip, return of displaced Gaza residents to their homes, reconstruction of the Strip, and a serious prisoner exchange deal." The five demands outlined reveal Hamas' strategic objectives for the day after.

Irreversible cessation of hostilities

For Hamas, the cornerstone of any deal is an agreement on ending the war, leading to the withdrawal of Israeli forces to the pre-escalation lines and limiting Israel's ability to conduct counter-terrorism operations in Gaza. This would allow Hamas members to safely emerge from their hiding places, reorganize, restore their governance, and rebuild their capabilities.

Concurrent with the ceasefire and the withdrawal of Israeli forces, captives would be released in exchange for the release of Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails, displaced Gazans would be allowed to return to the Strip, and an internationally funded reconstruction process would commence.

Israel would not be able to resume hostilities after their cessation. In such a reality, and after the Israeli war machine has been shut down, it would be impossible to simply flip a switch and restart the fighting as if nothing had happened. Even in the face of ceasefire violations by Hamas, the international community would pressure Israel to resort to a "proportionate response." Domestically, too, it would be challenging to garner support for renewing the war, given the costs and the additional threats and challenges that would arise. The practical implication is that the war would effectively end with Hamas remaining the dominant force in Gaza and having achieved gains that would enhance its standing even in the West Bank and the Palestinian Authority.

No disarmament for Hamas

At Hamas' disposal would not only be a network of tunnels spanning dozens of kilometers but also the means to rapidly restore its local arms production industry. Combined with the substantial resources that would be introduced for civilian reconstruction, it is reasonable to assume that within a short period, Hamas could replenish its arms shortages. As long as Hamas remains the governing authority and the de facto ruler, no external party – neither Arab states nor international organizations – would be able to effectively monitor and prevent these risks.

Regarding the prevention of smuggling from Sinai into Gaza, without effective Israeli control over the Philadelphia Corridor and the Rafah Crossing, Israel would be forced to rely on international arrangements, emphasizing security coordination with Egypt. Past experience does not inspire optimism for the future. Moreover, the inherently gradual nature of military buildup, occurring out of the spotlight, would hinder the application of pressure and allow for incremental adaptation to the evolving reality.

Return of displaced Gazans: Accepting tunnel reality

The extensive network of tunnels beneath residential areas in Gaza City provides Israel with justification for not allowing displaced Gazans to return to their homes and to continue considering these areas as "combat zones." This could have served as significant leverage for the Gazan population seeking to return to normalcy, pressuring Hamas. Israel's concession on this issue not only eliminates this source of pressure but may also be interpreted as tacit acceptance of this reality, which contradicts the concept of security demilitarization.

Consolidating power in the West Bank and PA

Hamas' insistence that militants from the West Bank released as part of the deal be returned to their homes rather than Gaza reflects not only the position of strength from which Hamas leaders are negotiating but also the organization's intent to leverage their release to enhance its political standing in the West Bank and the Palestinian Authority and, of course, to utilize their terrorist capabilities to strengthen its infrastructure in that area.

Continued action against Hamas necessary

At this juncture, Hamas' elaborate response has spared Israel from the in-depth discussion required regarding the implications of the deal on the table. Decision-makers face an unenviable task. Any decision they make will be a case of "woe to those who fashion me, and woe to those who birth me."

For now, it is prudent to continue and intensify efforts to dismantle Hamas' infrastructure, increase efforts to target Sinwar and other field commanders, work to eliminate Hamas leaders abroad who constitute the organization's political, media, and economic arm – for they are the ones who transform Hamas into a regionally influential entity. If we do not act against them, they will be central players in the reconstruction of Hamas in the Strip.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, RomanPer said:

Next time you hear screaming around the world about Israel?

 

I will remember the video's of Nova festival victims who posted themselves hiding; 30 or 40 on top of each other in roadside security bunkers.

 

Hamas fighters filming themselves throwing grenades in. Like clearing trenches, but these are unarmed civilians high on party drugs.

 

The 1st hand accounts accounts after from 2 or 4 that survived? When packed inside the bunker telling social media they might die not being able breathe as everyone crushed to get in? That saved their lives 1st being buried underneath the bodies when grenades exploded. Then 2knd when the fighters moved in & riddled anyone dismembered & dying with machine gun fire. Laying for hours with the dead on top. Not knowing if the terrorists were still outside. 

 

And the same pictures from Kibutzes.

[Canuck Surfer]

44 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Hamas' uncompromising demands: A glimpse into the terrorist group's strategic motives

 

Apparently still not good enough?

 

 

[Ilunga]

11 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

What I can suggest?

 

I believe capitulating to Sinwar would cost more lives than it saves. Many times more. 400,000 or 1,000,000? I look at it different than ''wanting to continue the fight.''  Instead of asking to remain in power, Hamas should ask to be allowed to exile themselves.  That Gaza would lay down their weapons as a neutral country, to be established, in return for self determination without Hamas; also that Israel recede not just from Gaza but from settlements. I say saving that catastrophe is more important.

 

I dont see leaving Hamas in power for 1/3rd of hostages. Some dead. The current Biden proposal to my understanding and with more caveats. Accomplishes anything?

 

Who said anything about leaving Hamas' in power in exchange for the hostages ?

 

We are talking about a ceasefire in return for the hostages.

 

I have already posted information from a New York Times article that Hamas' officials have told international negotiators that they would be willing to give up control in Gaza.

That depends on concession the Isrealis want to make.

 

It takes both sides to make concessions, to make a deal. 

 

Now that we know there is a risk of an outbreak of polio in Gaza, surely the first humanitarian consideration is to vaccinate those 640,000 kids under 10 year old.

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

I will remember the video's of Nova festival victims who posted themselves hiding; 30 or 40 on top of each other in roadside security bunkers.

 

Hamas fighters filming themselves throwing grenades in. Like clearing trenches, but these are unarmed civilians high on party drugs.

 

The 1st hand accounts accounts after from 2 or 4 that survived? When packed inside the bunker telling social media they might die not being able breathe as everyone crushed to get in? That saved their lives 1st being buried underneath the bodies when grenades exploded. Then 2knd when the fighters moved in & riddled anyone dismembered & dying with machine gun fire. Laying for hours with the dead on top. Not knowing if the terrorists were still outside. 

 

And the same pictures from Kibutzes.

 

I will remember those pictures to.

My heart goes out to all those victims, especially the Isrealis at the peace festival.

They were people like me, kindred souls.

 

 

I will also remember the footage I have seen on the news for over 300 days now.

The dead, injured, the pain and suffering.

The sheer amount of destruction. 

 

With no end in sight. 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Who said anything about leaving Hamas' in power in exchange for the hostages ?

 

This was the directive Sinwar quoted as non negotiable just 5 days ago. I posted it here. Mentioned it numerous times in the posts we have been going back & forth on. Its widely available on the internet. No intent to suggest it was you who said it.

 

* However just suggesting Israel stop what they are doing?

* Suggests this is ''close'' to what could be a negotiated ceasefire. 

 

Protesting only Israel / Pressuring Israel to give in? Still implies Hamas has every right to the approach they are taking. Even when you quote / unquote condemn Hamas. ''Israel just has to stop!'' Remains what you keep saying. Which is also why I have asked / challenged 'Palestinian' supporters or those who empathize with Palestinian (you fit in this category) victims to publish what they feel Hamas should put on the table for a solution. 

 

A ceasefire will only be realistic when Hamas also starts putting concessions on the table.

 

I believe a ceasefire will only be realistic when ''Palestinian Supporters''  start putting Hamas under pressure, as protestors are putting Israel.

 

* Tell Hamas to GTFO of schools and hospitals

* Not just complain when Israel attacks them

* Tell Hamas to release Hostages

* Tell Hamas to adopt ideology so all people (and religions) will be welcome in their districts, their country.

* Gentrification & elimination of minorities is unacceptable

* Tell Hamas to arrest publicly those who participated in Oct 7

* Tell Hamas launching rockets from apartment rooftops is killing the people who lived in them

* Make clear to Hamas both the tunnel and underground economy (that makes Hamas leaders rich) is unacceptable.

 

** I remain of the opinion that the tunnel and underground economy, corruption and greed, control of their people is the main reason Hamas activities occur. Why they exist! It has nothing to do with offering Gazans freedom, or a better life. Just like Ben G'vir does what he does because he wants free Gaza land. Although I view it as more rampant, systematically widespread in Hamas. Sides have to eliminate their corruption, the violent activities that support them!

 

By the way; I produced a similar list of concessions I asked Roman & Israel consider. I propose, Ilunga, you protest the above dot points as actively as you do Israelis corrupt activities. Pressure on both sides will force the forms of justice to solve problems.

[RWMc1]

21 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Seriously the Christian Broadcasting Network

 

Who promotes conspiracy theories and pseudo science. 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/christian-broadcasting-network-cbn/

 

 

Who are trump supporters.

 

Here they are talking about 

" The faith of Donald Trump "

 

https://www2.cbn.com/video/faith-donald-trump

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't follow CBN so I don't know anything about your links which I did not click on. I use different search terms for articles and videos to see different perspectives.

 

Do you outright reject everything he said or do consider that this soldier who has actually fought in the war might be telling the truth?

 

The reason I posted it was because it echoed what Optimist Prime stated a few pages back. Do you think he lied as well?

[Optimist Prime]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

I have already posted information from a New York Times article that Hamas' officials have told international negotiators that they would be willing to give up control in Gaza.

I honestly have not seen anything from the entities involved that even hints at Hamas giving up power. Not sure about the New York times statement as i ahve not read it, but seems aspirational. The sticking points for Hamas thus far have literally been that they are in charge after the hostilities are over, so it seems unlikely they quickly changed that tune.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, RWMc1 said:

I don't follow CBN so I don't know anything about your links which I did not click on. I use different search terms for articles and videos to see different perspectives.

 

Do you outright reject everything he said or do consider that this soldier who has actually fought in the war might be telling the truth?

 

The reason I posted it was because it echoed what Optimist Prime stated a few pages back. Do you think he lied as well?

 

I like to check the credibility of the sources I post on this site.

And credibility matters when you are posting information.

 

I use Media Bias as my main fact checking source.

Allsides Media as well. 

 

If you clicked on the link, Media Bias assessment of CBN, you will note they state that site - CBN - is known for promoting conspiracy theories and pseudo science

 

Their factual reporting is questionable and the have a low Credibility rating. 

 

Any site that has these ratings, I take with a grain of salt the messages they are promoting. 

 

They are trump supporters.

 

That particular video you posted, started out with Kamala Harris telling a rally she wants Israel to agree to a ceasefire so a deal to return the hostages can be made.

Then the host commented that trump stated that the Gaza conflict and the war in Ukraine could be leading us to WW3.

 

Then the Isreali soldier had his say. 

Saying he doesn't want a ceasefire. 

 

You do realise how that whole video presents itself  ?

 

Tell me, do you agree with UNICEF and the WHO that there should be a break in hostilities so 640,000 kids under 10 can be immunized for polio ?

There had been a child from Gaza diagnosed with polio.

 

Do you agree with the families of the hostages, the real Isreali victims in this situation, that want a ceasefire so they can have their family members returned to them ?

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

This was the directive Sinwar quoted as non negotiable just 5 days ago. I posted it here. Mentioned it numerous times in the posts we have been going back & forth on. Its widely available on the internet. No intent to suggest it was you who said it.

 

* However just suggesting Israel stop what they are doing?

* Suggests this is ''close'' to what could be a negotiated ceasefire. 

 

Protesting only Israel / Pressuring Israel to give in? Still implies Hamas has every right to the approach they are taking. Even when you quote / unquote condemn Hamas. ''Israel just has to stop!'' Remains what you keep saying. Which is also why I have asked / challenged 'Palestinian' supporters or those who empathize with Palestinian (you fit in this category) victims to publish what they feel Hamas should put on the table for a solution. 

 

A ceasefire will only be realistic when Hamas also starts putting concessions on the table.

 

I believe a ceasefire will only be realistic when ''Palestinian Supporters''  start putting Hamas under pressure, as protestors are putting Israel.

 

* Tell Hamas to GTFO of schools and hospitals

* Not just complain when Israel attacks them

* Tell Hamas to release Hostages

* Tell Hamas to adopt ideology so all people (and religions) will be welcome in their districts, their country.

* Gentrification & elimination of minorities is unacceptable

* Tell Hamas to arrest publicly those who participated in Oct 7

* Tell Hamas launching rockets from apartment rooftops is killing the people who lived in them

* Make clear to Hamas both the tunnel and underground economy (that makes Hamas leaders rich) is unacceptable.

 

** I remain of the opinion that the tunnel and underground economy, corruption and greed, control of their people is the main reason Hamas activities occur. Why they exist! It has nothing to do with offering Gazans freedom, or a better life. Just like Ben G'vir does what he does because he wants free Gaza land. Although I view it as more rampant, systematically widespread in Hamas. Sides have to eliminate their corruption, the violent activities that support them!

 

By the way; I produced a similar list of concessions I asked Roman & Israel consider. I propose, Ilunga, you protest the above dot points as actively as you do Israelis corrupt activities. Pressure on both sides will force the forms of justice to solve problems.

 

Plenty of people are making the case for the Palestinians-Hamas' to give up, no one apart from me, and you to a certain extent, in this thread, are pressuring Isreal to agree to a ceasefire. 

 

I have stated before that Hamas should agree to a ceasefire.

That they should surrender and face the consequences of their actions. 

 

If this were your family members or @Optimist Prime who were hostages,I am reasonably certain you would agree with the families of the hostages that there should be a ceasefire so a deal can be made to return the hostages.

 

Even if the Isrealis lie, tell them they will withdraw, get their hostages back, Hamas will have no leverage any more and be forced to surrender, or what is most likely to happen no matter the outcome, fuck off to another country and hide there. 

 

Face it mate, the Isrealis don't want a ceasefire, the war helps their corrupt religious leaders stay in power and facilitates them terrorising Palestinians in the West Bank, and  stealing more land from them there.

 

The psychopathic Palestinians leaders don't want a ceasefire, this war is the only thing keeping them in any sort of position of power. 

 

 

 People in this thread remind me why our species engages in these continuous stupid wars.

They can always find reasons to justify them. 

 

To be clear, you are not one of them.

 

And my name is dave.

 

 

 

Edited August 19 by Ilunga

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I honestly have not seen anything from the entities involved that even hints at Hamas giving up power. Not sure about the New York times statement as i ahve not read it, but seems aspirational. The sticking points for Hamas thus far have literally been that they are in charge after the hostilities are over, so it seems unlikely they quickly changed that tune.

 

On 8/17/2024 at 3:17 PM, Ilunga said:

 

It is clear that the leadership on both sides don't want an end to this never ending conflict.

Each has their various reasons for this.  

Meanwhile life for an " average " Palestinian sucks, to put it mildly. 

 

I keep on hearing that Isreal is the only  democracy, the good guys.

Well if you are the good guy, surely you are the side that starts reconciliation.  

 

 

And while I certainly condone the killing of Hamas' leaders, do you seriously believe that Palestinians who have watched their families members killed in this current phase will not carry vengeance in their hearts.

Violence begets violence. 

 

How many times do I have to post that study by a retired American General who expertise was counter - terrorism.

He stated that for every civilian killed, that " creates " 10 terrorists. 

 

This is only an opinion piece,  dated 2 days ago however in it it states 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/14/us/politics/israel-military-gaza-war.html

 

 

" Hamas has been so damaged in the war that it's officials have told international negotiators it is willing to give up civilian control of Gaza to an independent group after a ceasefire is in place. How long a Hamas will be willing to give up a measure of its power will depend on what happens after a ceasefire, and what concessions Israel is prepared to make, American officials said. " 

 

Even if Hamas relinquishes power, as I have pointed out, what about the Palestinians who want vengeance for the death of their loved ones.

Just like the Isrealis want vengeance for the death of their loved ones. 

 

These guys are the Hatfields and McCoys of the middle east. 

 

" And the circle of hatred continues until we react " 

 

Rage against the Machine 

 

There you go.

 

Hamas officials telling international Negotiator's they will give up civilian control of Gaza to an independent group. 

 

I can tell you this brother.

I am glad I promote peace, instead of finding reasons/justification to continue the killing and destruction. 

 

 

I started reading the comments section of that article. 

 

One person made what I thought was a great point.

 

Why do we - Americans - give Isreal so much aid, when they have free health care, a better social security system than we do.

Why don't we provide those things to our citizens before giving aid to Isreal. 

 

I remember roman stating in another thread, Isreal has to look after Isreal first.

Also it's Israel is his family and family sort their own shit out in-house.

Maybe the US should heed his advice and stop giving aid to Isreal.

Because, you know, they have to look after themselves first and work their own shit out.

 

 

[RWMc1]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

I like to check the credibility of the sources I post on this site.

And credibility matters when you are posting information.

 

I use Media Bias as my main fact checking source.

Allsides Media as well. 

 

If you clicked on the link, Media Bias assessment of CBN, you will note they state that site - CBN - is known for promoting conspiracy theories and pseudo science

 

Their factual reporting is questionable and the have a low Credibility rating. 

 

Any site that has these ratings, I take with a grain of salt the messages they are promoting. 

 

They are trump supporters.

 

That particular video you posted, started out with Kamala Harris telling a rally she wants Israel to agree to a ceasefire so a deal to return the hostages can be made.

Then the host commented that trump stated that the Gaza conflict and the war in Ukraine could be leading us to WW3.

 

Then the Isreali soldier had his say. 

Saying he doesn't want a ceasefire. 

 

You do realise how that whole video presents itself  ?

 

Tell me, do you agree with UNICEF and the WHO that there should be a break in hostilities so 640,000 kids under 10 can be immunized for polio ?

There had been a child from Gaza diagnosed with polio.

 

Do you agree with the families of the hostages, the real Isreali victims in this situation, that want a ceasefire so they can have their family members returned to them ?

Do you believe that the soldier was lying about Hamas using people as shields or not? Do you think Optimist Prime was lying about seeing a video of a Hamas member whipping women to use them as human shields? Why do you evade these questions?

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, RWMc1 said:

Do you believe that the soldier was lying about Hamas using people as shields or not? Do you think Optimist Prime was lying about seeing a video of a Hamas member whipping women to use them as human shields? Why do you evade these questions?

 

I haven't evaded stating the obvious.

We all know for a fact Hamas' uses Palestinians as human shields. 

 

I trust @Optimist Prime

 

Can you acknowledge that your source has no credibility whatsoever ?

 

A trump supporting site that promotes conspiracy theories and pseudo science and has low Credibility. 

 

Are you able to think critically about the content of that video. 

 

Why did they start with Kamala Harris stating she would call on Isreal to agree to a ceasefire.

 

Then quote trump.

 

Then produce an Isreali soldier whose main message was that he doesn't want a ceasefire.

 

Think critically about the juxtaposition of those three things.

 

[Ilunga]

The " most moral " army in the world.

 

Talking about the use of Human shields 

 

 

" Haaretz investigation: Israeli Army uses Palestinian Civilians to Inspect Potentially Booby Trapped Tunnels in Gaza "

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-13/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-uses-gazan-civilians-as-human-shields-to-inspect-potentially-booby-trapped-tunnels/00000191-4c84-d7fd-a7f5-7db6b99e0000

 

' Our lives are more important than their lives ' Gazans not suspected of terrorism are detained and sent as human shields to search tunnels and houses before IDF soldiers enter, with the full knowledge of senior Isreali officers, sources say; IDF claims this practice is forbidden "

[RomanPer]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Plenty of people are making the case for the Palestinians-Hamas' to give up, no one apart from me, and you to a certain extent, in this thread, are pressuring Isreal to agree to a ceasefire. 

 

I have stated before that Hamas should agree to a ceasefire.

That they should surrender and face the consequences of their actions. 

 

If this were your family members or @Optimist Prime who were hostages,I am reasonably certain you would agree with the families of the hostages that there should be a ceasefire so a deal can be made to return the hostages.

 

Even if the Isrealis lie, tell them they will withdraw, get their hostages back, Hamas will have no leverage any more and be forced to surrender, or what is most likely to happen no matter the outcome, fuck off to another country and hide there. 

 

Face it mate, the Isrealis don't want a ceasefire, the war helps their corrupt religious leaders stay in power and facilitates them terrorising Palestinians in the West Bank, and  stealing more land from them there.

 

The psychopathic Palestinians leaders don't want a ceasefire, this war is the only thing keeping them in any sort of position of power. 

 

 

 People in this thread remind me why our species engages in these continuous stupid wars.

They can always find reasons to justify them. 

 

To be clear, you are not one of them.

 

And my name is dave.

 

 

 

Hamas is a terrorist organization, they should have no leverage. They should be gone.

[RomanPer]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

There you go.

 

Hamas officials telling international Negotiator's they will give up civilian control of Gaza to an independent group. 

 

I can tell you this brother.

I am glad I promote peace, instead of finding reasons/justification to continue the killing and destruction. 

 

 

I started reading the comments section of that article. 

 

One person made what I thought was a great point.

 

Why do we - Americans - give Isreal so much aid, when they have free health care, a better social security system than we do.

Why don't we provide those things to our citizens before giving aid to Isreal. 

 

I remember roman stating in another thread, Isreal has to look after Isreal first.

Also it's Israel is his family and family sort their own shit out in-house.

Maybe the US should heed his advice and stop giving aid to Isreal.

Because, you know, they have to look after themselves first and work their own shit out.

 

 

Being a self-proclaimed leader of a free world comes with certain responsibilities.

[Ilunga]

7 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

Hamas is a terrorist organization, they should have no leverage. They should be gone.

 

Read my post carefully.

 

I am stating that Hamas' should not have leverage, by getting them to give up the hostages.

[Ilunga]

6 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

Being a self-proclaimed leader of a free world comes with certain responsibilities.

 

How convenient of you to change your narritive. 

Israel should look after Isreal first.

Well according to that logic, the US should look after itself first. 

 

Giving their citizens free healthcare and a good social security system, just like they have in Isreal.

 

 

The US gave up any pretense of being the leader of the free world when they elected trump.

 

Also they don't recognise the ICC.

You know, the court whose founding was driven by a Transylvanian Jewish American, Ben Ference.

The chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg war trials. 

 

Isreal, the Russians, China, North Korea amongst others don't recognise the ICC.

 

So don't give me this leader of the free world bullshit. 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Hamas officials telling international Negotiator's they will give up civilian control of Gaza to an independent group.

 

As you mentioned.  That was an opinion piece.

 

Here is a report on the official Hamas policy.

 

https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/13/hamas-uncompromising-demands-a-glimpse-into-the-terrorist-groups-strategic-motives/

 

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

As you mentioned.  That was an opinion piece.

 

Here is a report on the official Hamas policy.

 

https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/06/13/hamas-uncompromising-demands-a-glimpse-into-the-terrorist-groups-strategic-motives/

 

 

That article you have posted is over 2 months old.

 

While the New Times  article, dated a few days ago  was an opinion piece, it stated that Hamas officials had told international negotiators that it was will to relinquish civilian control under certain circumstances. 

 

Read the article again. 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

15 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

That article you have posted is over 2 months old.

 

While the New Times  article, dated a few days ago  was an opinion piece, it stated that Hamas officials had told international negotiators that it was will to relinquish civilian control under certain circumstances. 

 

Read the article again. 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

17 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Did you listen to the whole video.

 

The analyst said that no, never means no. 

 

" Saying no is part of the negotiation process " 

 

Just heard that as I was typing.

 

More 

 

Blinken 

" I think a deal can be reached by the end of the week " 

 

" Tens of thousands of people in Israel in the streets pressuring the government for a peace deal "

 

Though the credibility of the guy just took a hit, when he compared the " robust " democracy of Isreal, the protesters, to the people in Gaza, who aren't protesting.

Like seriously, the Palestinians are not only doing everything they can to survive, any dissent is crushed by Hamas'. 

Yeah let's protest in the streets so we can be killed by the Isrealis. 

 

And this guy is hardly neutral 

 

https://www.foxnews.com/person/h/john-hannah