Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Did you listen to the whole video.

 

The analyst said that no, never means no. 

 

" Saying no is part of the negotiation process " 

 

Just heard that as I was typing.

 

More 

 

Blinken 

" I think a deal can be reached by the end of the week " 

 

" Tens of thousands of people in Israel in the streets pressuring the government for a peace deal "

 

Though the credibility of the guy just took a hit, when he compared the " robust " democracy of Isreal, the protesters, to the people in Gaza, who aren't protesting.

Like seriously, the Palestinians are not only doing everything they can to survive, any dissent is crushed by Hamas'. 

Yeah let's protest in the streets so we can be killed by the Isrealis. 

 

And this guy is hardly neutral 

 

https://www.foxnews.com/person/h/john-hannah

 

 

 

Maybe they can reach a deal?  Yes I listened to the video.  As mentioned, look for facts in presentation. Ignore spin...

 

No one should have to rely on a bulshit detector, or claim an editorial (opinion piece) is an accepted negotiating stance by Hamas Palestinians.

 

This headline is the key point in both;

 

 

Hamas has, to date, made no statement I am aware of agreeing to relinquish authority!  

 

That on its own would have Israel running to accept a deal.

 

As would be expected in the real world?

 

The sides are farther apart since Israel assassinated Haniyeh. Hamas does not even have representation at the current negotiations. Hamas have mentioned;

 

You are welcome to send us an update?

 

 

Biden is very invested. I have no doubt right now, Hamas could become as rich as the Jordanian King if they accepted at this moment? Nobody will suggest that as a negotiating stance. But its how all these deals work.  Its also how the Palestinians got screwed in 1948; not part of the payoff...

[Canuck Surfer]

Last power station has had to shut down in Lebanon. Electricity flash cuts are occurring across the country; no word when full powe rwill be restored.

 

 

[Boudrias]

Hamas plays the propaganda disinformation game because they have nothing else in else. Hamas must be totally defeated. Trying to split the Israeli government will not work while conflict continues. Hezbolla worries they are next. Iran knows that if they get involved directly that they will be hit hard. The Iranian people themselves do not support their government. 
 

Who is kidding who when press ignores what these despots do to stay in power but focus on every IDF action in Gaza.

[Taxi]

On 8/16/2024 at 6:39 PM, Ilunga said:

 

You triple down on your lies when I have presented evidence from a very credible source. 

 

For the third time.

 

" Israels historical role in the rise of Hamas "

 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2023/11/21/world/israel-failed-policy/ 

 

" The international focus on the war on Gaza has helped obscure the fact that Israel in the 1980's aided the rise of the Islamist Hamas as a rival to the secular Palestinian Liberation Organisation, and it's dominant faction Yasser Arafats Fatah. Israel's policy was clearly influenced by the US's training and arming of the Mujahideen ( or Islamic holy warriors ) in Pakistan in multiple countries to wage jihad against Soviet forces in Afghanistan. 

 

 

" Hamas, for its part, is alleged to have emerged out of the Israeli financed Islamist movement in Gaza, with Israels then military governor in that territory Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev disclosing in 1981 that he had been given a budget for funding Palestinian Islamists to counter the rising power of the Palestinian secularists.

HAMAS, A SPIN-OFF OF THE PALESTINIAN BRANCH OF THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD WAS FORMERLY ESTABLISHED WITH ISRAELS SUPPORT SOON AFTER THE FIRST INTIFADA FLARED IN 1987 AS AN UPRISING AGAINST THE ISREALI OCCUPATION OF PALESTINIAN LAND'S. 

 

Isreal objective was twofold, to split the nationalist Palestinian movement led by Arafat and, more fundamentally to thwart the implementation of a two state solution for solving the protracted Israeli - Palestinian conflict. By aiding the rise of an Islamist group whose charter rejected recognising the Israeli state, Israel sought to undermine the idea of a two state solution, including curbing western support for an independent Palestinian homeland. 

 

Israel's spy agency mossad played a role in this divide and rule game in the occupied territories. In a 1984 book,  " The Other Side of Deception " Mossad whistleblower Victor Ostrovsky contended that aiding Hamas meshed with "Mossads general"  plan for an Arab world " run by fundamentalists " that would reject " any negotiations with the west " thereby leaving Isreal as " the only democratic, rational country in the region. Avner Cohen, a former Isreali religious affairs official involved in Gaza for over two decades told a newspaper interviewer in 2009 that " HAMAS, TO MY GREAT REGRET IS ISRAELS CREATION ".

 

Isreal by contrast, persisted with its covert nexus with Hamas. With the consent of Israel, Qatar, a long time sponsor of jihadi groups, funneled $1.8 billion to Hamas, just between 2012 and 2021 according to the Haaretz newspaper.

 

" Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who has been in power for much of the last decade and a half told a meeting of his Likud's party's Knesset members " anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas " adding " this is part of our strategy - to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank. "

 

" Isreal like the US, may have been guided by the proverb, " the enemy of my enemy is my friend ". But as history attests, " the enemy of my enemy "  far from being far from being a friend, has often openly turned into a foe. "

 

The credibility of my source 

The Japan Times

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/japan-times/

 

LEAST BIASED 

HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING

HIGH CREDIBILITY 

 

Israeli source 

 

" For Years Netanyahu Propped Up Hamas, now it has blown up in our faces.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

 

The credibility of 

The Times of Isreal 

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/

 

LEFT- CENTRE BIAS

HIGH FACTUAL REPORTING

HIGH CREDIBILITY

 

Anyone who has followed this conflict knows that all this information is factual. 

 

This makes me think of the words of another one of my favourite Jewish people

 

" Military Intelligence is a contradiction in terms "

 

Julius Henry "Groucho" Marx 

 

And yes the Palestinians are pawns.

This is a well accepted fact.

Tell me, what would you do if you were a Palestinian living in Gaza ?

You claimed that they should stop voting th into power.

They only voted them in once into power in 2006.

In 2007 Hamas took out Fatah and since then they have ruled with an iron fist crushing any descent. 

Would you have the courage to risk your families lives and stand up to armed fanatical terrorist ?

I doubt it. 

 

 

 

 

F-off with the accusations about "lies". This is just jeering and totally unnecessary. You're trying to build some narrative out of 3-4 out of context quotes. 

 

You're playing both sides. If Israel thwarts Hamas with economic means, like blockades, it's collective punishment. If Israel allows funds to flow into Gaza, they're propping up Hamas. Well which is? Should Israel have strangled Hamas militarily, harming Gazans, or should they have allowed Hamas' economy to run?

 

The article you posted is complete hogwash. Hamas was not founded with Israel support. In fact, Hamas' founder was jailed by Israel both directly before and after Hamas was founded. I love how this article just states:

 

"HAMAS, A SPIN-OFF OF THE PALESTINIAN BRANCH OF THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD WAS FORMERLY ESTABLISHED WITH ISRAELS SUPPORT SOON AFTER THE FIRST INTIFADA FLARED IN 1987 AS AN UPRISING AGAINST THE ISREALI OCCUPATION OF PALESTINIAN LAND'S. "

 

Yet provides zero evidence for that.

[RomanPer]

8 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

How convenient of you to change your narritive. 

Israel should look after Isreal first.

Well according to that logic, the US should look after itself first. 

 

Giving their citizens free healthcare and a good social security system, just like they have in Isreal.

 

 

The US gave up any pretense of being the leader of the free world when they elected trump.

 

Also they don't recognise the ICC.

You know, the court whose founding was driven by a Transylvanian Jewish American, Ben Ference.

The chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg war trials. 

 

Isreal, the Russians, China, North Korea amongst others don't recognise the ICC.

 

So don't give me this leader of the free world bullshit. 

 

 

 

Israel is a small country in the world, it never said they are "the leader of the free world". What exactly is convenient? Healthcare in Israel is not free. There are monthly fees for medical insurance that each family pays based on their income. Social security system is behind countries like Canada and European countries. Not sure where you are getting your information from. Income taxes in Israel are very high. Sales tax is 18%.

 

How convenient of you not to list USA in the list of countries that don't recognize ICC... That court is highly politicized.

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago

Secretary of State Antony Blinken just said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu accepted the "bridging proposal" for a ceasefire-hostage deal proposed by the US, Egypt and Qatar. Blinken now saying Hamas has to accept

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

2 hours ago

Secretary of State Antony Blinken just said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu accepted the "bridging proposal" for a ceasefire-hostage deal proposed by the US, Egypt and Qatar. Blinken now saying Hamas has to accept

What are the chances Hamas accepts a deal that is bridging? 

[24K]

Just now, Alflives said:

What are the chances Hamas accepts a deal that is bridging? 

Zero chance. Hamas already rejected it like yesterday. 

 

This is no news. Ofcourse Israel agree to a deal that basically is everything they want. 

 

This is some weak ass psyop by Dems there. 

[Optimist Prime]

7 minutes ago, 24K said:

Zero chance. Hamas already rejected it like yesterday. 

 

This is no news. Ofcourse Israel agree to a deal that basically is everything they want. 

 

This is some weak ass psyop by Dems there. 

Not sure why you would say that is a psy op by dems in america, when it is netenyahoooo who agreed to the bridging deal: imo it is just stating the current situation. 
Now, weak ass psy op by Bibi, sure. hehe. I would agree there. 

[24K]

4 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Not sure why you would say that is a psy op by dems in america, when it is netenyahoooo who agreed to the bridging deal: imo it is just stating the current situation. 
Now, weak ass psy op by Bibi, sure. hehe. I would agree there. 

No, I say psyop by the dems for the purpose of their convention and trying to counter the pro Palestinian protest than any geopolitics. 

 

They are trying to run a psyop on their own base essentially. Plan as we are seeing is to have their talking head on social media framing this as some sort of big win. 

[RWMc1]

11 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I haven't evaded stating the obvious.

We all know for a fact Hamas' uses Palestinians as human shields. 

 

I trust @Optimist Prime

 

Can you acknowledge that your source has no credibility whatsoever ?

 

A trump supporting site that promotes conspiracy theories and pseudo science and has low Credibility. 

 

Are you able to think critically about the content of that video. 

 

Why did they start with Kamala Harris stating she would call on Isreal to agree to a ceasefire.

 

Then quote trump.

 

Then produce an Isreali soldier whose main message was that he doesn't want a ceasefire.

 

Think critically about the juxtaposition of those three things.

 

I've already stated that I look at many different sources with different perspectives. I also stated that the reason I posted this particular video was because of the descriptions of the human shield element.

You decided to focus strictly on the source and evaded the human shield element twice.

 

[Optimist Prime]

25 minutes ago, 24K said:

No, I say psyop by the dems for the purpose of their convention and trying to counter the pro Palestinian protest than any geopolitics. 

 

They are trying to run a psyop on their own base essentially. Plan as we are seeing is to have their talking head on social media framing this as some sort of big win. 

so the US Secretary Of State who literally just met with Bibi shouldn't say that Bibi agreed to the US proposal? 

I am unsure of your reason and logic on this. Is it that Biden is not the legit president and so BLinken isn't the legit Sec. of State, and so Trump should be announcing this? 

(tongue in cheek of course)

[24K]

4 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

so the US Secretary Of State who literally just met with Bibi shouldn't say that Bibi agreed to the US proposal? 

I am unsure of your reason and logic on this. Is it that Biden is not the legit president and so BLinken isn't the legit Sec. of State, and so Trump should be announcing this? 

(tongue in cheek of course)

No, timing just too convenient for the Dems with their national convention starting today and the large protestors gathered right in front of the United Center as we speak. 

 

Dem operatives has been running around with it making it sound like it is some sort of big win for Biden and a pendulum shifter and that protestors should all just go home cause Biden did the 'impossible' of getting Netanyahu to agree to a deal but not even specifying it is pretty much just Netanyahu agreeing to his own deal.

 

Remember Hamas ain't even attending these talks to begin with.

 

If you have issue with osyop cause we disagree in meaning. I'll change it to gaslighting their own base.  

Edited August 19 by 24K

[Optimist Prime]

4 minutes ago, 24K said:

No, timing just too convenient for the Dems with their national convention starting today and the large protestors gathered right in front of the United Center as we speak. 

 

Dem operatives has been running around with it making it sound like it is some sort of big win for Biden and a pendulum shifter and that protestors should all just go home cause Biden did the 'impossible' of getting Netanyahu to agree to a deal but not even specifying it is pretty much just Netanyahu agreeing to his own deal.

 

Remember Hamas ain't even attending these talks to begin with.

 

If you have issue with osyop cause we disagree in meaning. I'll change it to gaslighting their own base.  

Nah, i just think it is ridiculously complicated mental gymnastics to try to link a substantial world event: "bibi agrees to the bridging deal in Gaza" and turning it into psy ops or gaslighting. if bibi didn't agree then it would be weird to say he did, but if he did, this is global news. 

Now Hamas agreeing is another thing alltogether and likely won't happen until Sinwar is blown out of his hidey hole, but that doesnt negate the newsworthiness of Bibi agreeing. I think your anti dem bias is really skewing your take on this. It reminds me of how trump convinced Republicans to abandon the bipartisan border deal because achieving somethign good on Bidens watch wouldn't serve Trumps agenda well.  All well, it happens on all sides. Have a good one. We can agree to not see US politics the same way, but when there is a Secretary of State having talks with Bibi and comes away with an agreement: it is newsworthy no matter what side of the north american political divide you happen to be on, that is my point. 

[24K]

13 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Nah, i just think it is ridiculously complicated mental gymnastics to try to link a substantial world event: "bibi agrees to the bridging deal in Gaza" and turning it into psy ops or gaslighting. if bibi didn't agree then it would be weird to say he did, but if he did, this is global news. 

Now Hamas agreeing is another thing alltogether and likely won't happen until Sinwar is blown out of his hidey hole, but that doesnt negate the newsworthiness of Bibi agreeing. I think your anti dem bias is really skewing your take on this. It reminds me of how trump convinced Republicans to abandon the bipartisan border deal because achieving somethign good on Bidens watch wouldn't serve Trumps agenda well.  All well, it happens on all sides. Have a good one. We can agree to not see US politics the same way, but when there is a Secretary of State having talks with Bibi and comes away with an agreement: it is newsworthy no matter what side of the north american political divide you happen to be on, that is my point. 

Lol I have a anti Dem bias.

Thanks for the joke. You made my day. 

 

My point is this is a non story being hyped up to be some sort of huge deal. 

 

Of course Bibi gonna agree to his own deal. What are we talking about here. There was reason Biden's team scheduled the conference around this time hoping to get a deal done so he can tout his own horn at the Democratic convention. Obviously he didn't get it done as Hamas was not there to begin with and second they already said no. 

 

This is pretty much Biden just saying yes to whatever Bibi wants to get a positive headline before the dnc knowing full well it does nothing. 

 

It allows him to bring to the protestors that hey I tried to do something. See I got Bibi to agree. Layoff me man.  Remember he is speaking tonight at the convention. 

 

I can understand if you don't know much about US politics and the convention timeline seeing this is a Canadian hockey team forum. 

Edited August 19 by 24K

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, 24K said:

Lol I have been anti Dem bias.

Thanks for the joke. You made my day. 

 

My point is this is a non story being hyped up to be some sort of huge deal. 

 

Of course Bibi gonna agree to his own deal. What are we talking about here. There was reason Biden's team scheduled the conference around this time hoping to get a deal done so he can tout his own horn at the Democratic convention. Obviously he didn't get it done as Hamas was not there to begin with and second they already said no. 

 

This is pretty much Biden just saying yes to whatever Bibi wants to get a positive headline before the dnc knowing full well it does nothing. 

 

It allows him to bring to the protestors that hey I tried to do something. See I got Bibi to agree. Layoff me man.  Remember he is speaking tonight at the convention. 

 

I can understand if you don't know much about US politics and the convention timeline seeing this is a Canadian hockey team forum. 

Ok, enjoy your day.

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, 24K said:

Lol I have a anti Dem bias.

Thanks for the joke. You made my day. 

 

My point is this is a non story being hyped up to be some sort of huge deal. 

 

Of course Bibi gonna agree to his own deal. What are we talking about here. There was reason Biden's team scheduled the conference around this time hoping to get a deal done so he can tout his own horn at the Democratic convention. Obviously he didn't get it done as Hamas was not there to begin with and second they already said no. 

 

This is pretty much Biden just saying yes to whatever Bibi wants to get a positive headline before the dnc knowing full well it does nothing. 

 

It allows him to bring to the protestors that hey I tried to do something. See I got Bibi to agree. Layoff me man.  Remember he is speaking tonight at the convention. 

 

I can understand if you don't know much about US politics and the convention timeline seeing this is a Canadian hockey team forum. 

 

is there something on the deals actual merits that is a problem? I don't know why Hamas wouldn't agree, if they were serious about saving lives. 

[24K]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

is there something on the deals actual merits that is a problem? I don't know why Hamas wouldn't agree, if they were serious about saving lives. 

First hamas want a permanent cease fire. This is only a temporary one that essentially give leverage away from Hamas and allows Israel to re group and rehabilitate their image a bit before continuing on with the slightest form of provocation. 

 

Second, IDF will not completely withdraw from Gaza as under this deal, Isralie retain control of the Netzarium Corridor preventing freedom of movement between southern and northern. Gaza.

 

Third and probabaly the most consequencial, this deal will give Israel indefinite control over the Philidalphia corridor that connects Gaza to Egypt effectively making Gaza a literal Israli open air prison as Israel will have total control of movement of Palestinians and the movement of goods and aids. Israel ain't beating that apartheid ruling with this one. 

 

https://www.axios.com/2024/08/18/hamas-rejects-us-ceasefire-hostage-proposal

[Taxi]

H

2 minutes ago, 24K said:

First hamas want a permanent cease fire. This is only a temporary one that essentially give leverage away from Hamas and allows Israel to re group and rehabilitate their image a bit before continuing on with the slightest form of provocation. 

 

Second, IDF will not completely withdraw from Gaza as under this deal, Isralie retain control of the Netzarium Corridor preventing freedom of movement between southern and northern. Gaza.

 

Third and probabaly the most consequencial, this deal will give Israel indefinite control over the Philidalphia corridor that connects Gaza to Egypt effectively making Gaza a literal Israli open air prison as Israel will have total control of movement of Palestinians and the movement of goods and aids. Israel ain't beating that apartheid ruling with this one. 

 

https://www.axios.com/2024/08/18/hamas-rejects-us-ceasefire-hostage-proposal

Have the terms of the proposed deal been made public?

[24K]

1 minute ago, Taxi said:

H

Have the terms of the proposed deal been made public?

I linked my sources. You ain't getting a press release until both side agrees so don't hold your breath there. 

[RomanPer]

10 minutes ago, 24K said:

First hamas want a permanent cease fire. This is only a temporary one that essentially give leverage away from Hamas and allows Israel to re group and rehabilitate their image a bit before continuing on with the slightest form of provocation. 

 

Second, IDF will not completely withdraw from Gaza as under this deal, Isralie retain control of the Netzarium Corridor preventing freedom of movement between southern and northern. Gaza.

 

Third and probabaly the most consequencial, this deal will give Israel indefinite control over the Philidalphia corridor that connects Gaza to Egypt effectively making Gaza a literal Israli open air prison as Israel will have total control of movement of Palestinians and the movement of goods and aids. Israel ain't beating that apartheid ruling with this one. 

 

https://www.axios.com/2024/08/18/hamas-rejects-us-ceasefire-hostage-proposal

 

I look at the control over the Philadelphia corridor more like "ensuring security for Israel" than "open air prison".

[24K]

4 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I look at the control over the Philadelphia corridor more like "ensuring security for Israel" than "open air prison".

Thanks for your opinion but I have made a consencious decision to not engage with you on this topic seeing your deep and emotional connection to Isreal.

[Bob Long]

40 minutes ago, 24K said:

First hamas want a permanent cease fire. This is only a temporary one that essentially give leverage away from Hamas and allows Israel to re group and rehabilitate their image a bit before continuing on with the slightest form of provocation. 

 

Second, IDF will not completely withdraw from Gaza as under this deal, Isralie retain control of the Netzarium Corridor preventing freedom of movement between southern and northern. Gaza.

 

Third and probabaly the most consequencial, this deal will give Israel indefinite control over the Philidalphia corridor that connects Gaza to Egypt effectively making Gaza a literal Israli open air prison as Israel will have total control of movement of Palestinians and the movement of goods and aids. Israel ain't beating that apartheid ruling with this one. 

 

https://www.axios.com/2024/08/18/hamas-rejects-us-ceasefire-hostage-proposal

 

You lost me at 'open air prison ' 

[RWMc1]

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/08/04/truck-height-hamas-tunnel-discovered-on-gaza-egypt-border/

 

Israeli forces uncovered an unusually large tunnel during operations along the Philadelphi Corridor on the Gaza-Egypt border last week, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) reported on August 4. According to photos provided by the IDF, the tunnel was located within view of Egyptian guard towers and the border fence, had a 10-foot-high clearance — enough to drive large vehicles through — and had concrete reinforced walls, ceilings, and floors. Further, the IDF’s statement said that troops continue to investigate and disable the route. The IDF has discovered and destroyed dozens of underground tunnels along the Philadelphi Corridor, “including at least 25 that crossed into Egypt,” according to The Times of Israel.

Separately, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told his cabinet that Israel would stand firm on keeping troops along the Gaza-Egypt border under any truce deal with Hamas. “[Hamas] demands that we withdraw from the Philadelphi Corridor and the Rafah Crossing — its lifelines, which would allow it to rearm and rebuild its strength,” Netanyahu said. “It is important to set out the principle: We are not leaving from there.”
Expert Analysis

“With each week that passes since Israeli forces belatedly stormed Rafah, more is becoming known about the extent to which Hamas smuggling in what it needed from Egyptian territory. Cairo has either denied its role in permitting these tunnels or played dumb. But how could any self-respecting government be unaware of a tunnel you could literally drive a truck through?” — Mark Dubowitz, FDD CEO

“The IDF continues to find Hamas tunnels and further evidence of the underground empire of terror that Hamas assembled in southern Gaza. This is important work and should continue in order to prevent Hamas from returning to rule Gaza and use it as a springboard for more attacks.” — Seth J. Frantzman, FDD Adjunct Fellow

“The discovery of a large tunnel in southern Gaza should not be unexpected. Hamas recognized years ago that building an extensive tunnel network beneath Gaza would offer its fighters and military infrastructure protection from Israeli airstrikes. Now, Israel must learn from its recent discovery and determine the tunnel’s specific functions.” — Joe Truzman, Senior Research Analyst at FDD’s Long War Journal
Philadelphi Corridor is a ‘Lifeline’ for Hamas

Israel took operational control of the Philadelphi Corridor on May 29. IDF spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari explained during a press briefing that evening that the corridor was a “lifeline” for Hamas. Hagari said that the terrorist group “regularly smuggled weapons into the Gaza Strip” ‏via the Philadelphi Corridor and that the IDF “located dozens of launchers along the corridor, loaded and ready to fire rockets, and launch pits from which Hamas fired rockets and mortars into Israeli territory.” Hagari also emphasized that “Hamas exploited the Philadelphi Corridor, using it to build this infrastructure just dozens of meters from the border with Egypt so that we would not strike them.” 

[Bob Long]

32 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

I look at the control over the Philadelphia corridor more like "ensuring security for Israel" than "open air prison".

 

An unfortunate part of these discussions is the imo improper analogy use of apartheid and whatever the heck an 'open air prison ' is. Gaza is neither. 

 

This is a unique situation, with it's own history. Why can't we discuss it on its own terms?