Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, SilentSam said:

There is an opinion gaining traction that comes within 2 weeks of an apparent conversation between Netanyahu and Trump ..

   just throwing this out there,.  
 

 But I wouldn’t doubt the 2 men,

both try desperately to hold power,

could make themselves stronger by aligning.

          If the shoe fits…

 

And if it’s true ,.  Trump and Netanyahu should hang.

           I am not against Israel in there fight against Hamas ..

    

 

    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You, as we all are, are against Russia annexing land in the Ukraine, right ?

 

Well Isreal has been annexing land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem since 1967, how do you feel about that ?

[Canuck Surfer]

8 hours ago, Ilunga said:

As so many have noted, you can't kill/destroy and idea

 

That's an idealism. Actually an excuse. Bear in mind the ideals Hamas is sworn to.

 

Reverse is also true. Many Israeli's are indifferent to the suffering of Palestinians.  Because they have slept in bomb shelters, lost friends or family by terrorist attack or military service. Which is also an excuse. You will note I routinely call for Israeli accountability by starting to police and punish settlement activity. Punish abuse in occupied territories.

 

Here is another idealism? A positive activity rather than an excuse; peaceful protest. I actually applaud calling for peace. I just don't applaud only asking Israel to stop its militant activities. Condemning Hamas, but not asking for leaders from Palestine who will  agree to peaceful co-existance? Is leaving all responsibility for peace with Israel.

 

Edited September 3 by Canuck Surfer
spelling wrote near in mind, rather than bear in mind.

[Canuck Surfer]

8 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Japan and Germany VOLUNTARILY gave up persecuting people ?

 

Please read the quote you responded to.  It said they were 'forced' to disarm.  Sued for peace another popular phrase.

 

Hamas right now is putting Palestinians through what Nazi's put Germans through in Dresden. While we're topical, Jews at Auschwitz. Japan Nagasaki & Hiroshima. Were Americans & Stalin & Churchill war criminals in the same breadth as Netanyahu?  I would agree. Opportunistic, steal territorial gains in wars. Yes again. I believe the suffering of the people of Axis powers, their victims, started with the positions they took, hostile activities they initiated. 

 

It is, however, Hamas's charter that suggests everyone else leave and let them do their thing.  

 

Is there no belief Hamas / Palestinians should contribute any concessions towards a ceasefire? 

[Ilunga]

18 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

That's an idealism. Actually an excuse. Bear in mind the ideals Hamas is sworn to.

 

Reverse is also true. Many Israeli's are indifferent to the suffering of Palestinians.  Because they have slept in bomb shelters, lost friends or family by terrorist attack or military service. Which is also an excuse. You will note I routinely call for Israeli accountability by starting to police and punish settlement activity. Punish abuse in occupied territories.

 

Here is another idealism? A positive activity rather than an excuse; peaceful protest. I actually applaud calling for peace. I just don't applaud only asking Israel to stop its militant activities. Condemning Hamas, but not asking for leaders from Palestine who will  agree to peaceful co-existance? Is leaving all responsibility for peace with Israel.

 

 

It's not idealism to state a fact.

 

You can't bomb an idea out of existence.

That's what Hamas' is.

Palestinians idea of fighting for their freedom.

 

Sure you might destroy this bunch of radicals, but as I have pointed out, in the process of destroying this group you are creating more. 

 

You have to give them a better idea, the pathway to a better life for them and their families.

 

I have always stated that both sides have contributed to the circle of hatred, ergo it takes an effort from both sides have to break that circle. 

 

Again, I have stated that the Palestinians should engage in peaceful protest. 

 

As I have stated several times, Palestinian leaders should be chosen from the examples I have posted of Palestinians working with Isrealis for a peaceful solution to this never ending conflict.

 

You have acknowledged the acts of terrorism by the Isreali settlers, but not the IDF using Palestinian civilians as human shields.

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Please read the quote you responded to.  It said they were 'forced' to disarm.  Sued for peace another popular phrase.

 

Hamas right now is putting Palestinians through what Nazi's put Germans through in Dresden. While we're topical, Jews at Auschwitz. Japan Nagasaki & Hiroshima. Were Americans & Stalin & Churchill war criminals in the same breadth as Netanyahu?  I would agree. Opportunistic, steal territorial gains in wars. Yes again. I believe the suffering of the people of Axis powers, their victims, started with the positions they took, hostile activities they initiated. 

 

It is, however, Hamas's charter that suggests everyone else leave and let them do their thing.  

 

Is there no belief Hamas / Palestinians should contribute any concessions towards a ceasefire? 

 

They didn't sue for peace.

Both sides came reluctantly to the table. Germany was basically destroyed, and the yanks had to drop two atomic bombs on the Japanese to get them to surrender. 

 

It is not Hamas' who is dropping bombs and blowing the crap out of Gaza, it's the Isrealis that are doing that.

 

I, like tens of millions of people around the world believe that Israels response to the October 7 attack is disproportionate, and war crimes have been committed.

The ICC agrees with me. 

 

And please don't compare what is happening in Gaza to the holocaust and Auschwitz.

That was a deliberate systematic killing of millions of people.

There has been no comparison, apart from Stalin killing 20 million people.

 

 

 

Of course Hamas should make connecssions. 

But as we know Hamas actually are the bad guys.

 

The IDF- Israel is the most moral army/country on the planet ?

 

Have you actually lived with someone who has lived in a city while it was firebombed ?

I have, my dad.

He lived through the fire bombing of Coventry.

When he took me there thirty years later, you could still see some of the damage to the city.

He didn't tell me much, but what he did tell me was pretty fucked up.

 

I hope that doesn't have to happen to anyone, anywhere.

 

Edited September 3 by Ilunga

[Canuck Surfer]

16 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

You can't bomb an idea out of existence.

That's what Hamas' is.

Palestinians idea of fighting for their freedom.

 

Hmmmm?

 

Thats a bad representation. Ask Trotsky or Lenin if their ideals of food for the masses? Survived who controlled the bombs! Its also a terrible representation of Hamas who could not even be bothered with ideals;

 

Hamas is an Arabic acronym for the Islamic Resistance Movement. It has called on members of the other two Abrahamic faiths—Judaism and Christianity—to accept Islamic rule in the Middle East. “It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror,” it decreed. Hamas also rejected any prospect of peace or coexistence with the state of Israel.

 

Hamas as an idea, by decree, isn't Palestinians fighting for freedom.  Not even for Palestinians, who are both coerced and enforced to live within the ''idea.'' Islamic Rule! Regardless of it being, or not being how Palestinians want to live.  

 

Its led by manipulative & corrupt leaders who add doctrine that dying for their cause is Martyrdom. Required that parents send kids to war in Syria as mercenaries, so they could profit. Require that business owners offer their younger children to dig tunnels, and throw rocks at Israeli's. So they can charge a tax as the tunnels become the only means of supply; but also hide in the tunnels to use the daughters and Mothers as human shields. Within Gaza, you have to participate, or everyone in the family starves. They throw rockets at Israel, because then when the Jews respond; People become angrier at Israel than those who exploit & control them. The more enclosed their society becomes?

 

Its a cycle designed to keep people oppressed. 

 

Which is how Hamas stays in power.

 

33 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

And please don't compare what is happening in Gaza to the holocaust and Auschwitz.

That was a deliberate systematic killing of millions of people.

There has been no comparison, apart from Stalin killing 20 million people.

 

Hamas ideology has much of the same despotism. Use of coercive control as Hitler used the SS Sinwar strangles sympathizers; just less advanced in being at a point to execute Genocidal purges. Which are clearly written in either doctrine. Hamas leaders and Khomeini Wanted / Wants the same enclosed society under their control Hitler achieved. Which is why Israel, justifiably opposes it. Not that they should annex territory doing it.

 

Gaza by ethnicity, at 99% Arab Sunni Muslim Palestinian, has developed as one of the 'purest' demographically static populations in the world. Islamic fanaticism, versus Adolf needing, or feeling left out of blue eyed & blonde genetic perversion? Or whatever actually drove his psychotic mind. I don't really care. They are just as evil on a smaller scale only as their goals are not realized yet. 

 

Such purification is what drove Hitler to excise Jews and other cultures. Wealth for those who are pure a purpose, a justification an entitlement right for conquests.  

 

You don't see a similarity?

 

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

Of course Hamas should make concessions. 

as we know Hamas actually are the bad guys.

 

I appreciate, a lot, this reply.

 

 

I really don't mind, like actually that people protest to make Israel more accountable. But rather than campaign for Israel (alone) to stand down. Ask Palestinians to barrack for peaceful leaders.  Ask Palestinians to dispatch, disavow militant leadership. Campaign just as hard that Palestinians put work into the peace process. Just as people are starting to protest Netanyahu.

 

And put on your placards what concessions are needed from Hamas.   

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Hmmmm?

 

Thats a bad representation. Ask Trotsky or Lenin if their ideals of food for the masses? Survived who controlled the bombs! Its also a terrible representation of Hamas who could not even be bothered with ideals;

 

Hamas is an Arabic acronym for the Islamic Resistance Movement. It has called on members of the other two Abrahamic faiths—Judaism and Christianity—to accept Islamic rule in the Middle East. “It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror,” it decreed. Hamas also rejected any prospect of peace or coexistence with the state of Israel.

 

Hamas as an idea, by decree, isn't Palestinians fighting for freedom.  Not even for Palestinians, who are both coerced and enforced to live within the ''idea.'' Islamic Rule! Regardless of it being, or not being how Palestinians want to live.  

 

Its led by manipulative & corrupt leaders who add doctrine that dying for their cause is Martyrdom. Required that parents send kids to war in Syria as mercenaries, so they could profit. Require that business owners offer their younger children to dig tunnels, and throw rocks at Israeli's. So they can charge a tax as the tunnels become the only means of supply; but also hide in the tunnels to use the daughters and Mothers as human shields. Within Gaza, you have to participate, or everyone in the family starves. They throw rockets at Israel, because then when the Jews respond; People become angrier at Israel than those who exploit & control them. The more enclosed their society becomes?

 

Its a cycle designed to keep people oppressed. 

 

Which is how Hamas stays in power.

 

 

Hamas ideology has much of the same despotism. Use of coercive control as Hitler used the SS Sinwar strangles sympathizers; just less advanced in being at a point to execute Genocidal purges. Which are clearly written in either doctrine. Hamas leaders and Khomeini Wanted / Wants the same enclosed society under their control Hitler achieved. Which is why Israel, justifiably opposes it. Not that they should annex territory doing it.

 

Gaza by ethnicity, at 99% Arab Sunni Muslim Palestinian, has developed as one of the 'purest' demographically static populations in the world. Islamic fanaticism, versus Adolf needing, or feeling left out of blue eyed & blonde genetic perversion? Or whatever actually drove his psychotic mind. I don't really care. They are just as evil on a smaller scale only as their goals are not realized yet. 

 

Such purification is what drove Hitler to excise Jews and other cultures. Wealth for those who are pure a purpose, a justification an entitlement right for conquests.  

 

You don't see a similarity?

 

 

I appreciate, a lot, this reply.

 

 

I really don't mind, like actually that people protest to make Israel more accountable. But rather than campaign for Israel (alone) to stand down. Ask Palestinians to barrack for peaceful leaders.  Ask Palestinians to dispatch, disavow militant leadership. Campaign just as hard that Palestinians put work into the peace process. Just as people are starting to protest Netanyahu.

 

And put on your placards what concessions are needed from Hamas.   

 

 

 

Hamas' does not want to create an Islamic Caliphate outside of Palestine. 

 

It wants an independent Palestinian state that follows Islamic law. 

 

Maybe if Israel backed the secular PLO, instead of backing Hamas' to divide and rule the Palestinians factions, they might be dealing with secular Palestinians now, instead of religious fundamentalists. 

 

You seem to be missing the point.

Hamas might not have ideals, but it is an idea.

 

" "Hamas is an idea" 

Post war lessons from Baghdad to Jerusalem"

 

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4738847-hamas-is-an-idea-post-war-lessons-from-baghdad-to-jerusalem/

 

" Military officers seldom disagree with with their civilian masters in the middle of a war. That fact makes Isreali Defense forces spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari's interview on Israels chanel 13 news all the more newsworthy.

 

In a direct challenge to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who insists on the eradication of Hamas, Hagari declared, Hamas is an idea.  Hamas is a party. It's rooted in the hearts of the people - whoever thinks we can eliminate Hamas is wrong. 

 

As for what to do in post war Gaza he warned, " if we don't bring something else to Gaza, at the end of the day we will get Hamas."

 

Hagari's remarks echo a lesson US forces learned the hard way in Iraq. " In counterinsurgency you can't kill your way to victory." 

 

Soldier's understand the limits of military power better than the civilians who send them to war. "

 

 

Again, what you have to offer the Palestinian people is a better idea than Hamas.

That idea is a pathway to a better future for them and their families.

It's so fuckin simple.

 

You are going to go down the path of race ?

 

I have brought up the fact that Israel is not an immigration country.

Unless you are of Jewish descent, you cannot migrate to Israel and live permanently. 

 

 You want to talk about the rabbinical councils wanting to genetically test Jews to prove they are Jews so they can come to Isreal ?

 

" DNA Tests for Jewishness "

https://en.idi.org.il/articles/26956

 

This is going way further than Hitler ever did.

Jewish people have to prove their Jewishness genetically. 

Even when Jewish people live in other countries, they mostly marry with in their race. 

 

 

Let's get back to the Palestinians and your claim about them being 99% Sunni Muslim.

Who in their right mind would immigrate to the West Beach or Gaza, and live under Isreali persecution.  

 

So please don't even go down that racial path. 

 

I have asked for Palestinians to back peaceful leaders. 

I encourage both sides to find peaceful solutions.

 

If I had my way they would intermarry and their would be no Jews or Palestinians. 

Just like here in Aus, where over a couple of generations most of the people who have come to Aus, are now intermarrying.

 

What I would put on a placard if I was a Palestinian, give peace a chance.

Treat each other, they way we want to be treated.

Edited September 3 by Ilunga

[Canuck Surfer]

33 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Hamas' does not want to create an Islamic Caliphate outside of Palestine. 

 

It wants an independent Palestinian state that follows Islamic law. 

 

Maybe if Israel backed the secular PLO, instead of backing Hamas' to divide and rule the Palestinians factions, they might be dealing with secular Palestinians now, instead of religious fundamentalists. 

 

You seem to be missing the point.

Hamas might not have ideals, but it is an idea.

 

" "Hamas is an idea" 

Post war lessons from Baghdad to Jerusalem"

 

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4738847-hamas-is-an-idea-post-war-lessons-from-baghdad-to-jerusalem/

 

" Military officers seldom disagree with with their civilian masters in the middle of a war. That fact makes Isreali Defense forces spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari's interview on Israels chanel 13 news all the more newsworthy.

 

In a direct challenge to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who insists on the eradication of Hamas, Hagari declared, Hamas is an idea.  Hamas is a party. It's rooted in the hearts of the people - whoever thinks we can eliminate Hamas is wrong. 

 

As for what to do in post war Gaza he warned, " if we don't bring something else to Gaza, at the end of the day we will get Hamas."

 

Hagari's remarks echo a lesson US forces learned the hard way in Iraq. " In counterinsurgency you can't kill your way to victory." 

 

Soldier's understand the limits of military power better than the civilians who send them to war. "

 

 

Again, what you have to offer the Palestinian people is a better idea than Hamas.

That idea is a pathway to a better future for them and their families.

It's so fuckin simple.

 

You are going to go down the path of race ?

 

I have brought up the fact that Israel is not an immigration country.

Unless you are of Jewish descent, you cannot migrate to Israel and live permanently. 

 

 You want to talk about the rabbinical councils wanting to genetically test Jews to prove they are Jews so they can come to Isreal ?

 

" DNA Tests for Jewishness "

https://en.idi.org.il/articles/26956

 

This is going way further than Hitler ever did.

Jewish people have to prove their Jewishness genetically. 

Even when Jewish people live in other countries, they mostly marry with in their race. 

 

 

Let's get back to the Palestinians and your claim about them being 99% Sunni Muslim.

Who in their right mind would immigrate to the West Beach or Gaza, and live under Isreali persecution.  

 

So please don't even go down that racial path. 

 

I have asked for Palestinians to back peaceful leaders. 

I encourage both sides to find peaceful solutions.

 

If I had my way they would intermarry and their would be no Jews or Palestinians. 

Just like here in Aus, where over a couple of generations most of the people who have come to Aus, are now intermarrying.

 

What I would put on a placard if I was a Palestinian, give peace a chance.

Treat each other, they way we want to be treated.

 

Start with the bolded at the bottom?  And yours is a credible post.

 

* quotes like this below by yourself?  Are a lack of understanding. Or a decision to ignore influences. There is 1% Christians & 99% Muslims. Of a particular dialect. No people don't want to move there. Its a violent place, to which Israel owes its share, significant share of blame. Its an issue all over the Arab world, most without any conflict with Israel. Pretend for a second, you were a Kurd in Iran or Turkey, a Christian in Iraq, a Jew in Morocco, a Yazidi in Syria, any women who was being educated & had a job before renewed Taliban control. All these minorities & freedoms have practically been wiped from existence anywhere espousing Islamic Jihad. Apartheid, but by Jihadists.

 

Let's get back to the Palestinians and your claim about them being 99% Sunni Muslim.

Who in their right mind would immigrate to the West Beach or Gaza, and live under Isreali persecution.  

 

So please don't even go down that racial path. 

 

Its not a path I want to discuss. Its a path I cannot ignore if I would want peace in the region for Palestinians. Peace for everyone. I just visited Jordan.

 

I can tell you many like the King, more do not. Hate Israel & the US. 70% of Jordanians are Palestinian. They see Gazans as brothers, blood. Yet live in Jordan, don't want to join the war because they are afforded a peaceful life, economic opportunity to live well. Palestinians would rather live under a Hashemite King, in bed with the US and accepting relations with Israel. Their King expels terrorists, yet accept minorities, the antiquities of all cultures. A phrase is everyone is Family when they come to Jordan. 

 

Israel should have been investing in ''Palestinian'' settlements, not Jewish ones in occupied territories. Investing in training them to police Jihad, welcome tourists & peoples of alternate faith. Once free'd, most likely disarmed, it will, cough, like Germany, take probably a generation to soften the damage & hate. Creating opportunities, not financing the opposing militant wing to destabilize. As people start to live better, their hate will erode.  

 

If I was Palestinian, I would hold a placard, a message to both sides, saying;

 

''Jobs & Schools will help us decide on peace!''

''Education, not Guns!''

''Free hostages & hospitals!''

[Canuck Surfer]

14 hours ago, Ilunga said:

It's not idealism to state a fact.

 

You can't bomb an idea out of existence.

 

Here is another idea question;

 

How does the idea of Hamas differ from the idea of Zionism? 

[Canuck Surfer]

Lost in current animosities?

 

The arrangement of polio vaccines and other aid services has continued with cooperation by Israel.  

 

Even though some (here and elsewhere) said ceasefire would be required to do so. 

 

 

 

WHO exceeds target for Gaza polio vaccinations as campaign continues 12 hours ago  Share Mallory Moench BBC News

 

Lost in current animosities?

 

The arrangement of polio vaccines and other aid services has continued with cooperation by Israel.  

 

Even though some (here and elsewhere) said ceasefire would be required to do so. 

 

 

The World Health Organization (WHO) says polio vaccinations of children in central Gaza have "surpassed the target" in the first two days of its immunisation campaign.

 

Dr Rik Peeperkorn, the UN agency's representative in the Palestinian territories, said 161,030 children under the age of 10 were vaccinated on Sunday and Monday - above the projection of 156,500.

 

The difference was probably the result of an underestimate of the population crowded into the area, he explained.

Israel and Hamas agreed to a series of localised pauses in the fighting to allow health workers to administer vaccines after Gaza's first confirmed case of polio in 25 years left a 10-month-old partially paralysed last month.

 

Gaza polio vaccine rollout starts well, UN says

What is the plan to give polio vaccines to children in Gaza?

The pauses are taking effect between 06:00 and 15:00 local time in three separate stages across central, southern and northern parts of Gaza.

 

The first three-day stage began in Deir al-Balah and Khan Younis governorates on Sunday. It will shift to the south governorate of Rafah on Thursday and then move to North Gaza and Gaza City.

 

Dr Peeperkorn said the pauses had been "going well" until now.

But there were still "10 days to go at least" for the first round of the vaccination campaign, he said, while a second round to repeat the immunisations will start in four weeks.

 

He said some children were believed to be living outside the agreed zone for the pauses in the south and that negotiations were continuing in order to allow health workers to reach them.

 

The aim is to vaccinate a total of 640,000 children.

 

"We need to cover a minimum of 90% of those children to stop the transmission within Gaza and to avoid polio spread, international spread of polio to surrounding countries," Dr Peeperkorn said.

 

Poliovirus, most often spread through sewage and contaminated water, is highly infectious.

 

It can cause disfigurement and paralysis, and is potentially fatal. It mainly affects children under the age of five.

 

Humanitarian groups have blamed the re-emergence of polio in Gaza on disruption to child vaccination programmes as well as massive damage to water and sanitation systems caused by the war.

The mother of the partially paralysed baby, Abdulrahman Abu Judyan, told the BBC last week that her son was supposed to receive routine vaccinations on 7 October - the day Hamas attacked Israel and triggered Israel's military campaign in Gaza.

 

“I feel a lot of guilt that he didn’t get the vaccination. But I couldn’t give it to him because of our circumstances,” Niveen said.

She desperately hoped her son could be taken outside Gaza for treatment.

 

“He wants to live and walk like other children,” she said.

[Canuck Surfer]

12 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Hamas' does not want to create an Islamic Caliphate outside of Palestine. 

 

Who's opinion is this?

 

12 hours ago, Ilunga said:

It wants an independent Palestinian state that follows Islamic law. 

 

That wants all residents of all Abrahamic religions in the region to subjugate themselves to Hamas leadership. By the way that includes the Kingdom of Jordan. If you ask those who have left Gaza, the Hamas founders son. Although a nutbag in his own right, that son of the Hamas founder says different. Specifically about the concept of what caliphate means...

 

 

And they force this on people by raiding and massacring the villages of people who are not within their idealism.  Don't worry, its happening elsewhere.  That makes it ok, right?

 

  

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Who's opinion is this?

 

 

That wants all residents of all Abrahamic religions in the region to subjugate themselves to Hamas leadership. By the way that includes the Kingdom of Jordan. If you ask those who have left Gaza, the Hamas founders son. Although a nutbag in his own right, that son of the Hamas founder says different. Specifically about the concept of what caliphate means...

 

 

And they force this on people by raiding and massacring the villages of people who are not within their idealism.  Don't worry, its happening elsewhere.  That makes it ok, right?

 

  

 

I will reply to all your posts with this post

 

What's the difference between Hamas and Zionism ?

I have actually stated that I am a Zionist in the sense I believe the Jewish/Israeli people have a right to a state of their own.

Like me, there are lots of Jews/Israelis who aren't Zionists, but believe Jews/Isrealis have the right to a state of their own. 

 

The polio vaccinations, I brought that up.

I didn't say they had to have a ceasefire just to be able to vaccinate over 600,000 kids under 10 years old, I stated it was just one of the reasons why a ceasefire is warranted. 

 

When will people be happy mate ?

When all of Gaza is destroyed ?

We are not far from that point. 

 

As for that dude, is he much different from Smotrich, or Ben Gvir ?

Israel has proved in the past it has the knowledge and the wherewithal to take out guys like this. 

Do you believe that " ordinary " Palestinians that don't share his beliefs should be punished for his beliefs ?

Because that's what happening. 

I have presented evidence that certain elements in the Isreali leadership have fostered guys like him, to create a boogeyman, and strengthen western belief that Isreal is the only democracy in the region the west can deal with. 

 

The Americans hunted down Bin Laden.

Surely the Israelis who have shown themselves to be quite proficient at taking out dudes like him, can find him and take him out.

 

Again, you seem to believe that it's ok to punish the many for the actions of a few.

 

I don't believe that the settlers should be punished in any way, all they should do is get the fuck out of the West Bank.

And stop taking land, by any means in East Jerusalem.  

 

Stop oppressing the Palestinian people, as you have stated, build them schools, universities, hospitals, the infrastructure we have that will enable them to have hope for a better future.

Then they might abandon Hamas, there will be no need to support them. 

Try something, the above, that has never been tried before.

We here in democracies support them with actions, rather than words.

 

As so many experts in counterinsurgency, including Isreali experts have stated, Isreal is only creating more problems for itself down the road continuing with these tactics in Gaza. 

 

I wonder how you would feel, sitting in your tent, you have been shuffled around Gaza several times in the last 11 months.

Wondering where your kids next meal is going to come from.

When, if ever they will get to go back to school. 

 

Why I put myself in their shoes first, is their suffering is happening now.

 

Then I put myself in the shoes of the families of the Isreali hostages, their suffering is happening now.

They want a ceasefire, so they can get their loved one back, dead or alive.

Hundreds of thousands, at least, of Isrealis want the war to end for various reasons, the big one being economic. 

For months, the IDF, the security services amongst others have been demanding an exit plan, the government still hasn't come up with one.

 

As it stated in that article, in a counter insurgency you can't kill your way to victory. 

How many wars like his, has illustrated this point.

[Ilunga]

@Canuck Surfer 

 

Chomsky nails it at the start of this song.

 

 

 

Killing innocent people and destroying their communities, is not the way to win their hearts and minds.

 

The largest bombing campaign in history, operation Rolling Thunder never worked.

A staggering 7,662,000 tonnes of explosives were dropped by US forces in Vietnam, how did that work out for them ? 

 

This was Operation/Program Phoenix 

 

" CIA's Phoenix Program " 

 

https://greydynamics.com/mercy-of-the-wicked-the-cias-phoenix-program/

 

" The CIA instituted a bloody campaign of exporting torture techniques into the hands of cruel regimes, officially known as the Phoenix Program. " 

 

Democracy at work....right ?

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[RomanPer]

10 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Here is another idea question;

 

How does the idea of Hamas differ from the idea of Zionism? 

 

Come on, really? Zionism is the idea of Jews having a home nation. Idea of Hamas is to kill the Jews. How can you equate them?

[Canuck Surfer]

36 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Come on, really? Zionism is the idea of Jews having a home nation. Idea of Hamas is to kill the Jews. How can you equate them?

 

That was exactly my point.

 

Someone posted the concept you cannot bomb an idea.  I pointed out the idealogue of Hamas.   

[Ilunga]

36 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Come on, really? Zionism is the idea of Jews having a home nation. 

 

Not according to the Jewish voice for Peace. 

 

https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/

 

" By creating a racist hierarchy with European Jews at the top, Zionism erased those histories and destroyed those communities and relationships. In Israel jewsish people of colour - from the Arab world, North Africa and East Africa - have long been subjected to systemic discrimination and violence by the Israeli government. That hierarchy also creates Jewish spaces where Jews of colour are marginalised, our identities and commitments questioned and interrogated, and our experiences invalidated. It prevents us as seeing each other as - fellow Jews and fellow human beings - in our full humanity. "

 

" Zionism as a political ideology and as a  movement has always hierarchrised Jews based on ethnicity and race and has not equally benefited or been liberatory for all Jewish people in Israel. Zionism is and was an Ashkenazi led movement that othered, marginalised and descriminated against Jews from the middle east and North Africa that it termed the Mizrahim (the 'eastern ones'). 

 

In the early 1950's starting two years after the Nakba, the Israeli government facilitated a mass of  migration of Mizrahim. 

Unlike their Ashenkenazi counterparts the new Mizrahi immigrants were not permitted to settle in the central cities or live in housing they could eventually come to own. 

Instead, the Israeli police were deployed to compel Mizrahi immigrants to remain in the transient camps and later development towns in Israel's periphery as a means to expand state territory and prevent Palestinian return.

 

During the 1950s Mizrahi immigrants were also subjected to medical experimentation facilitated or performed by the Isreali government, and several thousand babies and toddlers were taken from their parents by the Israeli government. These children, two thirds Yemeni, one third from Tunisian, Morrocan, Iraqi and Balkan families were taken by Physicians and social workers and given up for adoption by Ashkenazi families. 

 

From the first waves of immigration in the 1980s, Ethiopian Jews have experienced racism on the part of the government and the Israeli public, exclusion from the public sphere, discrimination in education and employment and exposure to physical and verbal violence. They also remain as unrecognised as Jews by the Israeli religious establishment and religious councils because of racial predjudice. Ethiopian mobilization for racial justice consolidated since 2015 has called for an end to institutional discrimination, police harrassment, arrests with our cause, false accusations and indictments about assaulting police officers and denial of due process all of which have long been experienced by the Ethiopian community. 

 

For more see, Zionism from the standpoints of its Jewish victims, by Ella Shohat.

And, They didn't want Ethiopian Jews in Isreal either, by Efrat Yerday.

[Ilunga]

47 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

That was exactly my point.

 

Someone posted the concept you cannot bomb an idea.  I pointed out the idealogue of Hamas.   

 

You can't bomb the idea the Palestinians have in regards to having a state of their own, their freedom, and hope for a better future. 

 

And better minds than ours have pointed out you can't kill your way to a victory against a counter insurgency. 

 

And how do you feel about the post above this ?

Mizrahi Jews relating their experiences with Zionism.  

 

Still believe that Zionism is simply Jews wanting a state of their own.

Or isn't the words of Mizrahi Jews good enough for you.

[Canuck Surfer]

8 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Why I put myself in their shoes first, is their suffering is happening now.

 

Its these people that form the society in Gaza.

 

If I had to be complicit with what Hamas did Oct 7?  What Hamas was asking of Palestinians in Gaza, well before Oct 7? I would have left! Or fought against them. Israel left Gaza 18 years ago. Hamas was consumed with firing rockets in to Israel, building tunnels. Not building a Palestinian society.

 

If you, by memory an agnostic, running a business in Gaza had a partner and 3 kids? Gaza became increasingly shut down, as it was sieged. You argue it was Israeli fault. I argue it was the 100 to 1000 various terrorist attacks & missile launches Hamas directed at Israel each year. Regardless, your business would become increasingly dependent on goods smuggled through the tunnels. And your kids, your wife. They had to be at community Mosque every Friday, your wife cook food for such events, and 20% of your business take went in to the collection hat. Not doing so means your kids get beat up at school, you get tasked for paying an associate instead directly at your storefront. Where you are also expected to come out front the 3 times a day during open hours to kneel at your carpet. At Dhur, Asr & Maghrib as everyone does. Convey the messages you are expected to convey, be seen doing it. Or your business would be trashed & you would be beaten. Often in front of your wife, kids, and your neighboring businesses. The kids feel they are getting beat up because of you. Neighbours so they know they have no choice but to pay contribution; collaborate with your way of thinking.

 

So you would have left too...

 

Its why there is only a 1% of population who are minorities there. You are not allowed to be someone different, who believes different. What remains is, probably, a core of terrorists, mixed with people who honestly believe in the religion? But have no capacity to separate society from Hamas. Be Palestinian? Maybe cannot find a way to leave, are scared to leave family behind. But if you join in, the Mosque has food when you do not.    

 

 

 

Sooooooo?

 

A) This ^^ is Israel fault?

B) Israel should absorb the 1000 odd missile, terrorist attacks that fly in many years?

c) Be patient 

D) Just wait for the next Oct 7

E) Not react 

F) Should give Hamas what they want because they killed 6 hostages in front of the world.

G) To embarrass & instill fear in those who do not comply...

 

I apologize, but I dont share your view. Even if you are well intended. I believe that withdrawing exactly now will result in exponentially more deaths than the 50 or 60 remaining live hostages. I also believe if Israel had intended Genocide, the Gazan 40,000 dead would be 400,000.  

 

8 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

" By creating a racist hierarchy with European Jews at the top,

 

This is why Israel was formed?  

 

This is, Zionism, compared to Hamas?

 

@RomanPer is right.  I apologize I asked.

 

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Its these people that form the society in Gaza.

 

If I had to be complicit with what Hamas did Oct 7?  What Hamas was asking of Palestinians in Gaza, well before Oct 7? I would have left! Or fought against them. Israel left Gaza 18 years ago. Hamas was consumed with firing rockets in to Israel, building tunnels. Not building a Palestinian society.

 

If you, by memory an agnostic, running a business in Gaza had a partner and 3 kids? Gaza became increasingly shut down, as it was sieged. You argue it was Israeli fault. I argue it was the 100 to 1000 various terrorist attacks & missile launches Hamas directed at Israel each year. Regardless, your business would become increasingly dependent on goods smuggled through the tunnels. And your kids, your wife. They had to be at community Mosque every Friday, your wife cook food for such events, and 20% of your business take went in to the collection hat. Not doing so means your kids get beat up at school, you get tasked for paying an associate instead directly at your storefront. Where you are also expected to come out front the 3 times a day during open hours to kneel at your carpet. At Dhur, Asr & Maghrib as everyone does. Convey the messages you are expected to convey, be seen doing it. Or your business would be trashed & you would be beaten. Often in front of your wife, kids, and your neighboring businesses. The kids feel they are getting beat up because of you. Neighbours so they know they have no choice but to pay contribution; collaborate with your way of thinking.

 

So you would have left too...

 

Its why there is only a 1% of population who are minorities there. You are not allowed to be someone different, who believes different. What remains is, probably, a core of terrorists, mixed with people who honestly believe in the religion? But have no capacity to separate society from Hamas. Be Palestinian? Maybe cannot find a way to leave, are scared to leave family behind. But if you join in, the Mosque has food when you do not.    

 

 

 

Sooooooo?

 

A) This ^^ is Israel fault?

B) Israel should absorb the 1000 odd missile, terrorist attacks that fly in many years?

c) Be patient 

D) Just wait for the next Oct 7

E) Not react 

F) Should give Hamas what they want because they killed 6 hostages in front of the world.

G) To embarrass & instill fear in those who do not comply...

 

I apologize, but I dont share your view. Even if you are well intended. I believe that withdrawing exactly now will result in exponentially more deaths than the 50 or 60 remaining live hostages. I also believe if Israel had intended Genocide, the Gazan 40,000 dead would be 400,000.  

 

 

This is why Israel was formed?  

 

This is, Zionism, compared to Hamas?

 

@RomanPer is right.  I apologize I asked.

 

 

It all gets down to whether you, or anyone else, believe Isreals response is proportionate. 

Tens of millions of people with consciences around the world believe that is it disproportionate to kill tens of thousands of people, women and children included, and destroy entire enclave. 

More and more Isrealis believe this.

 

 

You do realise that was Mizrahi Jews describing their history and experiences in Israel ?

 

And all you have to say is I am sorry I asked.

 

They are talking about being persecuted. Their children being experimented on.

Their kids taken away from them. 

They are persecuted, marginalised. 

 

They feel like they are treated like second class citizens in their own country, by their own supposed people. 

 

Unfuckinbelivable.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Bob Long]

3 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Come on, really? Zionism is the idea of Jews having a home nation. Idea of Hamas is to kill the Jews. How can you equate them?

 

I'm also wondering how a "free" Palestine being run under Islamic law is a good thing? Not if you are a woman.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

 

[RomanPer]

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Not according to the Jewish voice for Peace. 

 

https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/

 

" By creating a racist hierarchy with European Jews at the top, Zionism erased those histories and destroyed those communities and relationships. In Israel jewsish people of colour - from the Arab world, North Africa and East Africa - have long been subjected to systemic discrimination and violence by the Israeli government. That hierarchy also creates Jewish spaces where Jews of colour are marginalised, our identities and commitments questioned and interrogated, and our experiences invalidated. It prevents us as seeing each other as - fellow Jews and fellow human beings - in our full humanity. "

 

" Zionism as a political ideology and as a  movement has always hierarchrised Jews based on ethnicity and race and has not equally benefited or been liberatory for all Jewish people in Israel. Zionism is and was an Ashkenazi led movement that othered, marginalised and descriminated against Jews from the middle east and North Africa that it termed the Mizrahim (the 'eastern ones'). 

 

In the early 1950's starting two years after the Nakba, the Israeli government facilitated a mass of  migration of Mizrahim. 

Unlike their Ashenkenazi counterparts the new Mizrahi immigrants were not permitted to settle in the central cities or live in housing they could eventually come to own. 

Instead, the Israeli police were deployed to compel Mizrahi immigrants to remain in the transient camps and later development towns in Israel's periphery as a means to expand state territory and prevent Palestinian return.

 

During the 1950s Mizrahi immigrants were also subjected to medical experimentation facilitated or performed by the Isreali government, and several thousand babies and toddlers were taken from their parents by the Israeli government. These children, two thirds Yemeni, one third from Tunisian, Morrocan, Iraqi and Balkan families were taken by Physicians and social workers and given up for adoption by Ashkenazi families. 

 

From the first waves of immigration in the 1980s, Ethiopian Jews have experienced racism on the part of the government and the Israeli public, exclusion from the public sphere, discrimination in education and employment and exposure to physical and verbal violence. They also remain as unrecognised as Jews by the Israeli religious establishment and religious councils because of racial predjudice. Ethiopian mobilization for racial justice consolidated since 2015 has called for an end to institutional discrimination, police harrassment, arrests with our cause, false accusations and indictments about assaulting police officers and denial of due process all of which have long been experienced by the Ethiopian community. 

 

For more see, Zionism from the standpoints of its Jewish victims, by Ella Shohat.

And, They didn't want Ethiopian Jews in Isreal either, by Efrat Yerday.

 

Jewish voice for peace is a fringe group that doesn't represent even 1% of Jews in the world. It's being paraded by the anti-Israel crowd as if it's some sort of real representation. We also had Kapos in the concentration camps, so what?