Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

You can't destroy a (bad) idea, you have to replace it with a better idea. 

 

Ask and answer(ed).

 

2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

There will be plenty of parents *---* sick of the death & dying, violence rather than spoiled by it. Will support peace and a free country if its promised. If its delivered. There are plenty of people who do not want Islamic Jihad. 

 

War certainly spoils some people.  I know many refugee's, including my grandfather, who are simply grateful to be in a peaceful place.

 

It will be better if its in Palestine.   

[Canuck Surfer]

This protest is against a war expo here in Melbourne.  Prominent signs and dress highlighting Pro Palestine movements apparent.

 

The demographics did not look like crowds of Muslim activists despite that.

 

 

[Ilunga]

13 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Ask and answer(ed).

 

 

War certainly spoils some people.  I know many refugee's, including my grandfather, who are simply grateful to be in a peaceful place.

 

It will be better if its in Palestine.   

 

You, or the IDF hasn't answered anything.

 

11 months of bombing the crap out of  (destroying)Gaza, killing tens of thousands of people, has the idea of Hamas' been destroyed yet ?

No.

Does it even look like it will be destroyed ?

No it doesn't. 

 

Who has more experience in these matters, some random posters on a hockey forum, or a senior figure in the IDF ?

 

You claimed that the Islamic Revolution was destroyed, "bombed" out of existence.

I have provided evidence that it has not. 

 

Again, as so many military experts have stated, you can't kill your way to a victory in a counter insurgency. 

 

But, hey let's forget the lessons of history.

 

 

[Ilunga]

6 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

This protest is against a war expo here in Melbourne.  Prominent signs and dress highlighting Pro Palestine movements apparent.

 

The demographics did not look like crowds of Muslim activists despite that.

 

 

 

They weren't Muslims, they were a amalgamation of a few groups of protesters. 

They were protesting the event, weapons expo, not the war in Gaza.

 

While I respect their right to protest, apparently they were, amongst other things, throwing turds at the police.

Hurting the Police horses.

Assaulting Police.

Fuck them.

I hope they lock them up.

 

[Ilunga]

6 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

The issue of settlements is not that 100% black and white. There are obvious idiots that are the voters of Ben Gvir and Smotrich. They are the ones that cause the issues, engage in fights with Palestinians and even worse. Believe it or not - they are the loud minority even between the settlers. But just like "Jewish Voice for Peace" and "Neturei Karta" - they are the ones being paraded by anti-Israel propaganda because their actions fit the narrative. There are complete opposite examples of settlements that actually create job opportunities for the Palestinians from nearby villages and develop areas that were abandoned before the settlers got there. But no one is talking about these cases in the media here because, again, it doesn't fit the narrative. I will give you one example - Soda Stream is an Israeli company that was founded in a large settlement of Ariel. They grew large very fast and provided employment to a very large population of nearby Palestinian villages. That is, until the BDS movement campaign against them that forced them to close the original factory and move it to Beer Sheva. Where they employ only citizens of Israel. The company is doing great. Who lost from all that BDS campaign? Palestinian villagers who no longer have that job security.

 

Ahh yes the Soda Stream BS.

 

Here are some thoughts from the Soda stream employees. 

 

And other Palestinian workers that are employed by the Isrealis in the West Bank.

Who are payed half/ a third of minimum wage.

Not paid for overtime. 

 

" The cynical use of Palestinian workers in the Soda Stream controversy "

 

https://www.972mag.com/the-cynical-exploitation-of-palestinian-workers-in-scarlett-johanssonsodastream-affair/

 

Media Bias assessment of 972 Magazine

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/972-magazine/

 

Factual reporting

HIGH 

MBFC Credibility Rating

High 

 

Unlike you Roman, who never provides any sources to back up what you assert.

[Canuck Surfer]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

You claimed that the Islamic Revolution was destroyed, "bombed" out of existence

 

No, nothing like I said.  

 

Your commentary was 'you cannot bomb an idea' out of existence.  Not that Islamic resistance is a great idea?

 

I said I disagree; indirectly. I don't agree that all will turn violent, ''spoiled'' was the specific term I used, by war. I gave the example of refugees who want nothing more than a place where there is peace. I stated there will be many Palestinians like that. Hopefully in Palestine. There are plenty of claims Israel will create the next round of terrorists with their actions?  ie its their, the Israeli's fault. I disagree, again indirectly. Not that Israel does not have its share of blame.

 

There is no responsibility in that bolded statement. People make their own choice to become terrorists. Most will choose peace if there is that opportunity? The same way many Israeli's protest for peace. You allude that is an indictment they are guilty. Even where that is true, and Israel has its crimes. It is no solution. Blame games, which is rhetoric, really does not help. It just flares up the emotion in the dispute! I do believe it's Israel's responsibility, as the vastly wealthier and stronger militarily nation, to take the first steps.  See the last page of posts; myself calling for Israel to campaign on a willingness to have a Palestinian nation. Share the land in a different way if not this notion of a two state solution? If Palestinians will put down their arms. Myself petitioning endlessly for each side to police their own people.

 

The problem is the minority packing guns. 

 

And vitriol.  

 

 

[Ilunga]

7 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

No, nothing like I said.  

 

Your commentary was 'you cannot bomb an idea' out of existence.  Not that Islamic resistance is a great idea?

 

I said I disagree; indirectly. I don't agree that all will turn violent, ''spoiled'' was the specific term I used, by war. I gave the example of refugees who want nothing more than a place where there is peace. I stated there will be many Palestinians like that. Hopefully in Palestine. There are plenty of claims Israel will create the next round of terrorists with their actions?  ie its their, the Israeli's fault. I disagree, again indirectly. Not that Israel does not have its share of blame.

 

There is no responsibility in that bolded statement. People make their own choice to become terrorists. Most will choose peace if there is that opportunity? The same way many Israeli's protest for peace. You allude that is an indictment they are guilty. Even where that is true, and Israel has its crimes. It is no solution. Blame games, which is rhetoric, really does not help. It just flares up the emotion in the dispute! I do believe it's Israel's responsibility, as the vastly wealthier and stronger militarily nation, to take the first steps.  See the last page of posts; myself calling for Israel to campaign on a willingness to have a Palestinian nation. Share the land in a different way if not this notion of a two state solution? If Palestinians will put down their arms. Myself petitioning endlessly for each side to police their own people.

 

The problem is the minority packing guns. 

 

And vitriol.  

 

 

 

Who states it's is Israel fault ?

People, myself included, state that if you kill people, then you will radicalise some of the people who love them.

Especially in the situation like Gaza. 

That's a fact, no matter where you are on this planet.

 

 

Answer this question honestly, if it was your daughter that was killed in these circumstances, how would you react ?

Would you want vengeance, or would you want to make peace, just like the son of one of the victims of October 7, Vivian Silver, that I posted about. 

 

Try and put yourself in a Palestinians shoes. 

Before this particular phase of the conflict, over 5,000 of them had been killed, and 115,000 injured, 2005-2020. 

They live without hope for a better future.

They continue to lose land in the west bank.

How would you feel if you were forced to live like that ? 

 

You, amongst others keep stating that the Palestinians should get rid of Hamas', yet when I ask you how they should do this, you have no answer.

The " average" Palestinian doesn't have a gun. 

Would you fight armed fanatics ?

Would you risk your family ?

Do you have the courage you expect of the Palestinians ?

 

 

[Yoshiyoshi]

Quote

Try and put yourself in a Palestinians shoes. 

Before this particular phase of the conflict, over 5,000 of them had been killed, and 115,000 injured, 2005-2020. 

They live without hope for a better future.

They continue to lose land in the west bank.

How would you feel if you were forced to live like that ? 

Ok, so how many of those 5000 dead and 115k injured were killed in strikes on positions where Hamas or other insurgents launched rocket attacks or other types of attacks from? How many of these numbers were insurgents vs civilians? They live without hope? well they elected Hamas in Gaza and they have supporters in the West Bank who have oppressed the Palestinian people far worse than anything Israel had done. They gained all of Gaza in 2006(ish?) so they arent just losing land. If I had to live like that I would hate it, but its not Israel that is causing the problems for them, its their own leadership. When you blame Israel for all this stuff you are literally supporting Hamas and other terrorist groups in their crimes.

 

Quote

You, amongst others keep stating that the Palestinians should get rid of Hamas', yet when I ask you how they should do this, you have no answer.

The " average" Palestinian doesn't have a gun. 

Would you fight armed fanatics ?

Would you risk your family ?

Do you have the courage you expect of the Palestinians ?

You start by helping the IDF identify Hamas members and then staying away from them as much as possible to make it easier for them to be taken out. You dont need a gun to fight back, you dont even need to fight at all as long as you get out of the way to let others fight. Early in the conflict Israel called for people to evacuate the areas they were going to attack and so many people refused. Every person that refused to get out of the way is guilty of aiding Hamas.

 

Ive answered the last 3 questions enough times in this thread so im not doing it again. What i will say is, if you want a free state of Palestine to ever exist, then you need enough average Palestinians to be willing to stand up, put their lives and families lives on the line to fight back against those in their population that support extremism, tyranny, etc. They do not need a messiah like leader as some have said in the past to rise up, that would make it easier, but once that person was gone then they would just fall back into the same state as before they arrived. As was seen when the US pulled out of Afghanistan, the forces the US had raised up and supported gave up and folded almost immediately because they werent willing to fight for the democratic values and freedom that the US tried to forcibly instill there. People who are not willing to fight for freedom will quickly lose it and there is no hope for Palestine as a nation to ever exist as long as the only people willing to fight are fanatics for their religion.

[RomanPer]

5 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Ahh yes the Soda Stream BS.

 

Here are some thoughts from the Soda stream employees. 

 

And other Palestinian workers that are employed by the Isrealis in the West Bank.

Who are payed half/ a third of minimum wage.

Not paid for overtime. 

 

" The cynical use of Palestinian workers in the Soda Stream controversy "

 

https://www.972mag.com/the-cynical-exploitation-of-palestinian-workers-in-scarlett-johanssonsodastream-affair/

 

Media Bias assessment of 972 Magazine

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/972-magazine/

 

Factual reporting

HIGH 

MBFC Credibility Rating

High 

 

Unlike you Roman, who never provides any sources to back up what you assert.

 

Right, as usual, Dave's "sources" being opinions on the web rather than personal experience.

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Ok, so how many of those 5000 dead and 115k injured were killed in strikes on positions where Hamas or other insurgents launched rocket attacks or other types of attacks from? How many of these numbers were insurgents vs civilians? They live without hope? well they elected Hamas in Gaza and they have supporters in the West Bank who have oppressed the Palestinian people far worse than anything Israel had done. They gained all of Gaza in 2006(ish?) so they arent just losing land. If I had to live like that I would hate it, but its not Israel that is causing the problems for them, its their own leadership. When you blame Israel for all this stuff you are literally supporting Hamas and other terrorist groups in their crimes.

 

You start by helping the IDF identify Hamas members and then staying away from them as much as possible to make it easier for them to be taken out. You dont need a gun to fight back, you dont even need to fight at all as long as you get out of the way to let others fight. Early in the conflict Israel called for people to evacuate the areas they were going to attack and so many people refused. Every person that refused to get out of the way is guilty of aiding Hamas.

 

Ive answered the last 3 questions enough times in this thread so im not doing it again. What i will say is, if you want a free state of Palestine to ever exist, then you need enough average Palestinians to be willing to stand up, put their lives and families lives on the line to fight back against those in their population that support extremism, tyranny, etc. They do not need a messiah like leader as some have said in the past to rise up, that would make it easier, but once that person was gone then they would just fall back into the same state as before they arrived. As was seen when the US pulled out of Afghanistan, the forces the US had raised up and supported gave up and folded almost immediately because they werent willing to fight for the democratic values and freedom that the US tried to forcibly instill there. People who are not willing to fight for freedom will quickly lose it and there is no hope for Palestine as a nation to ever exist as long as the only people willing to fight are fanatics for their religion.

Excellent post. I want to see an independent Palestinian state, perhaps, but it must follow a peaceful Palestinian existence. In no way do I favour giving a radical, armed, antisemitic group of extremists an independent homeland to further their goals of wiping Israel off the map. So far in my lifetime, those ends have not been achieved.

 

I don't see a near horizon timeliness for that to happen yet, either. Peace was breaking out the day before Gaza attacked Israel. One day soon we may get back to Oct 5th stances and work from there, but Hamas has set the overall Palestinian back 30 or 60 years with what they are doing right now.

[Taxi]

Also interesting that we are getting such wildly different views of what's going on from rights groups and actual Palestinian workers:

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/02/04/sodastream-israel-west-bank/5189021/

Quote

Aballah says he make $2,000 a month, significantly more than the Palestinian Authority minimum wage of $377.

 

Not even Oxfam supports the allegations about wage and labour violations.

 

Quote

Oxfam spokesman Alun McDonald said Oxfam did not disagree with Israeli-owned factories in the West Bank once a peace agreement had been reached.

"The problem at the moment is it's in an illegal settlement on occupied land. If it's an Israeli factory in a future Palestinian state, paying tax in Palestine and genuinely benefiting the economy, then it could be a good thing.

McDonald said the issue was not labor rights or conditions in the factory, nor SodaStream specifically, but about the location.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

4 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Peace was breaking out the day before Gaza attacked Israel.

 

Could you please elaborate?

[Taxi]

4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Could you please elaborate?

 

Just prior to October 7, 2023, it was expected that Israel and Saudi Arabia were about to announce a permanent recognition and peace deal. This would have paved the way to full peace between Israel and the Arab world. This would have likely also led to a permanent peace deal between the Israelis and Palestinians. Iran had other plans.

[Optimist Prime]

42 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

Just prior to October 7, 2023, it was expected that Israel and Saudi Arabia were about to announce a permanent recognition and peace deal. This would have paved the way to full peace between Israel and the Arab world. This would have likely also led to a permanent peace deal between the Israelis and Palestinians. Iran had other plans.

Pretty much this. Yup.

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Ok, so how many of those 5000 dead and 115k injured were killed in strikes on positions where Hamas or other insurgents launched rocket attacks or other types of attacks from? How many of these numbers were insurgents vs civilians? They live without hope? well they elected Hamas in Gaza and they have supporters in the West Bank who have oppressed the Palestinian people far worse than anything Israel had done. They gained all of Gaza in 2006(ish?) so they arent just losing land. If I had to live like that I would hate it, but its not Israel that is causing the problems for them, its their own leadership. When you blame Israel for all this stuff you are literally supporting Hamas and other terrorist groups in their crimes.

 

You start by helping the IDF identify Hamas members and then staying away from them as much as possible to make it easier for them to be taken out. You dont need a gun to fight back, you dont even need to fight at all as long as you get out of the way to let others fight. Early in the conflict Israel called for people to evacuate the areas they were going to attack and so many people refused. Every person that refused to get out of the way is guilty of aiding Hamas.

 

Ive answered the last 3 questions enough times in this thread so im not doing it again. What i will say is, if you want a free state of Palestine to ever exist, then you need enough average Palestinians to be willing to stand up, put their lives and families lives on the line to fight back against those in their population that support extremism, tyranny, etc. They do not need a messiah like leader as some have said in the past to rise up, that would make it easier, but once that person was gone then they would just fall back into the same state as before they arrived. As was seen when the US pulled out of Afghanistan, the forces the US had raised up and supported gave up and folded almost immediately because they werent willing to fight for the democratic values and freedom that the US tried to forcibly instill there. People who are not willing to fight for freedom will quickly lose it and there is no hope for Palestine as a nation to ever exist as long as the only people willing to fight are fanatics for their religion.

 

Victim blaming.

 

Innocent civilians will continue to die in conflicts around the world while people like you continue to find reasons to justify such acts. 

 

This is a breakdown of deaths and casualties between 2008 - 2020.

 

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

 

The Palestinians voted Hamas into power back in 2005, since then there has been no elections.

Hamas has crushed any dissent, opposition to their rule.

So how are the Palestinians meant to " vote " Hamas out of power.

 

The Palestinians have " got out of their way ".

Most of them have been displaced three or four times.

They go to where they will be told they are safe, and then they are attacked in what have been declared " safe humanitarian zones ". 

 

As I have stated so many times, I hate violence.

I have denounced the use of violence, anytime, anywhere.

Palestinians, Isrealis, Hezbollah.

Something no one else in this thread has done.

Violence does not solve problems, it only creates them.

So stop with your thinly veiled claim that I support terrorists.

 

 

You know what nation was successfully built upon the acts of terrorist groups ?

Isreal. 

They committed acts of terror against both Palestinians and the British. 

 

https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/jcs/article/view/10538/11136

 

One man's terrorist, another man's freedom fighter...  Right ?

 

No they, Hamas',  The Stern gang, The Irgun and The Lehi, were/are all terrorists.

 

 

It's so easy sitting half a world away in the safety of your own home, calling on others to risk, maybe sacrifice the lives of their children. 

 

I wouldn't sacrifice the life of my son for anything.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

Pretty much this. Yup.

 

I knew this general outline; being that it was mentioned as going to happen the next day?  Or something to that effect.  

 

* I thought you had an update I had not heard, like a press conference was being organized with a normalization of relations agreement...

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Right, as usual, Dave's "sources" being opinions on the web rather than personal experience.

 

Yeah, those are the " opinions " of Palestinians the reporter spoke to. 

Palestinians who stated they have been paid half to a third of minimum wage. 

Have been exploited. 

 

What personal experience have you had on the ground in the west bank. 

 

Let me guess, you happen to know Palestinians who worked for Soda Stream. 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

The Palestinians voted Hamas into power back in 2005, since then there has been no elections.

Hamas has crushed any dissent, opposition to their rule.

So how are the Palestinians meant to " vote " Hamas out of power.

 

This is why those who support Palestinians?  Need to call Palestinians to action.  

 

If they are not represented by Hamas; they should stand against them.  Protest that rape victims & hostages are paraded through the streets, hidden in their neighborhoods. This is not an environment you can live in? Then expect peace. If your choice was to live under the realm of insurgency? Not to mention a poor economy, that filtered all its money to the militants corrupt leaders. Who live in luxury.  Should you not take up arms, to police Hamas? Or leave, accept the residency in Israel as was once offered... 

[RomanPer]

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Yeah, those are the " opinions " of Palestinians the reporter spoke to. 

Palestinians who stated they have been paid half to a third of minimum wage. 

Have been exploited. 

 

What personal experience have you had on the ground in the west bank. 

 

Let me guess, you happen to know Palestinians who worked for Soda Stream. 

 

 

 

Cool story. Getting paid 6 times the minimal salary within Palestinian Autonomy is now "exploitation" lol

[Ilunga]

55 minutes ago, Taxi said:

 

Just prior to October 7, 2023, it was expected that Israel and Saudi Arabia were about to announce a permanent recognition and peace deal. This would have paved the way to full peace between Israel and the Arab world. This would have likely also led to a permanent peace deal between the Israelis and Palestinians. Iran had other plans.

 

It never was " likely " to have led to a permanent peace deal between the Isrealis and the Palestinians

 

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Israeli-Saudi-peace-deal

 

" In an effort to acknowledge a continued commitment to the Palestinian cause on the part of the Saudi leadership, Saudi Arabia and the United States sought concessions on issues related to Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza strip. As the possibility of an imminent deal gained plausibility in August - September the Palestinian authority also became involved in the discussions with Saudi Arabia and the United States in an effort to gain sway over the deals final shape. But concerns remained that the Palestinian grievances in the Palestinian - Isreali conflict would remain unresolved and that they would lose a key point of leverage if Saudi Arabia normalised ties with Israel. " 

 

So the Saudis might have agreed to anything in regards to the Palestinians, but the Palestinians themselves weren't agreeing to a peace deal in regards to a deal between the Saudis and the Israelis.

[Ilunga]

15 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

This is why those who support Palestinians?  Need to call Palestinians to action.  

 

If they are not represented by Hamas; they should stand against them.  Protest that rape victims & hostages are paraded through the streets, hidden in their neighborhoods. This is not an environment you can live in? Then expect peace. If your choice was to live under the realm of insurgency? Not to mention a poor economy, that filtered all its money to the militants corrupt leaders. Who live in luxury.  Should you not take up arms, to police Hamas? Or leave, accept the residency in Israel as was once offered... 

 

I have lost count of the times I have called on the Palestinians to use peaceful means to achieve their goal of an independent state. 

 

Again, where are they meant to get " their arms " from.

Gaza has one of the lowest private ownership of guns per capita in the world.

Hamas controls virtually all of the guns in Gaza.

This is due to the Isreals years long blockade of Gaza.   

 

So where are these magical guns meant to come from ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

22 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Cool story. Getting paid 6 times the minimal salary within Palestinian Autonomy is now "exploitation" lol

 

So some random dude on an Canadian internet forum, knows more than a self described liberal Zionist who lives in Isreal, spoke to Palestinians in the west bank and wrote that article. 

 

Here's another Article about the exploitation of Palestinian workers by Isrealis roman

 

 

" Palestine's disposable labourers "

 

https://carnegieendowment.org/middle-east/diwan/2023/11/palestines-disposable-laborers?lang=en

 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/carnegie-endowment-for-international-peace/

 

Media Bias assessment of the Carnegie Endowment Think Tank 

 

Factual Reporting

HIGH 

Credibility Rating

HIGH CREDIBILITY

 

Unlike you Roman.

 

[Optimist Prime]

34 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

It never was " likely " to have led to a permanent peace deal between the Isrealis and the Palestinians

 

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Israeli-Saudi-peace-deal

 

" In an effort to acknowledge a continued commitment to the Palestinian cause on the part of the Saudi leadership, Saudi Arabia and the United States sought concessions on issues related to Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza strip. As the possibility of an imminent deal gained plausibility in August - September the Palestinian authority also became involved in the discussions with Saudi Arabia and the United States in an effort to gain sway over the deals final shape. But concerns remained that the Palestinian grievances in the Palestinian - Isreali conflict would remain unresolved and that they would lose a key point of leverage if Saudi Arabia normalised ties with Israel. " 

 

So the Saudis might have agreed to anything in regards to the Palestinians, but the Palestinians themselves weren't agreeing to a peace deal in regards to a deal between the Saudis and the Israelis.

Sorry but you took your eye off the ball here. If Saudi's normalized relations with Israel, after Egypt and Jordan already did, then that deal would have substantially removed the concept of "ALL OUR ARAB BROTHERS UNITE AGAINST THIS EVIL" as Hamas has been calling for sporadically since Oct 7th, and well before it too. 

As each legit Muslim government acknowledged Israels right to exist and moved to make ties with Israel, financial and political, it would have isolated for instance, the government of Gaza to a point where they would not think offhand that they had support from their 'Arab brothers' to murder 1200 people. Or to push to wipe Israel off the map..and thus they would need to negotiate from that point, and yes the likely outcome was even more peace, even more prosperity and a future where Gaza wasn't bombed into the stone age. 

 

Hamas chose the stone age rather than lose another pretend ally in the ever constant struggle to eliminate Israel. 

[Canuck Surfer]

12 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

the Palestinians themselves weren't agreeing to a peace deal in regards to a deal between the Saudis and the Israelis.

 

For all their negative activities?

 

My understanding is for some time the Saudi's have espoused status on a Palestinian state.  Regardless, why would, or should Palestine stand between Saudi & Israeli relations?

 

Further, if the Saudi's are backing a nation for Palestine. Isn't there an alternate source of support, cough, to Iran amongst Arabic nations. Not that S.A. is a particularly peaceful nation.  But the odd's of peace have to be so substantially higher than partnering with Iran? Who is not only sworn to the death of the last Jew standing. Are further active at this very moment, via Hamas and others.  For the record, the very first thing Palestinians need to do if they want peace is send Iran packing!

 

That they ''lose'' leverage only means they fear or don't want to sever ties with Iran.  Underscored by the fact Abbas's personal bodyguard was the one who was hunted down after killing 3 police officers.  Abbas & the PA have long been suspected of being corrupt; but the lesser of two evils compared to Hamas. And scared shitless, another of his bodyguards was killed when Hamas tried to assassinate Abbas last Dec in East Jerusalem. 

 

Which ALL is why Sinwar & Haniyeh have, and had to be killed. Those controlling Iran's payroll. The funds & militant activities committed to all causes Khomeini are the biggest obstacle to peace. Kill these bastards, new links are possible!  This is also, in extreme high likelihood, why Sinwar and those in the back packets of Iran started October 7th now; before they were militarily ready. They envisioned their Golden Dildo would be pulled from their backsides before they finished praying to it... 

 

Also for the record; Jordanians & Saudi's are not fans of the US or Israel. Yet its citizens, particularly Jordanian, live a lifestyle that grossly exceeds that which anyone could expect over the next 30 years in Gaza and the West Bank. All a direct result of trade and aid, much military, and civilian aid also in Jordans case. In return for military alliance with the US & normalization with Israel. I am not sure Saudi's, aside from ruling elite, have too much sense of freedom. Jordanians absolutely enjoy a great deal of freedom. In the Middle Class anyway, I have seen it with my own eyes. This is the opportunity for Gaza and the West Banks citizens.

 

And yes, if that alliance was an option, Gazan's would quickly have the means to contest remaining Hamas terrorists.