Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

If they are not represented by Hamas; they should stand against them.

 

Not that Azeem who escaped Jerusalem is the perfect character for this reference? 

 

''Turn and fight; if you would be free men!''  One minute in & onwards...

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Interesting tidbit in the fight against misinformation, doxxing video's released without knowledge of a victim. And specifically misinformation designed to spread hate.

 

Why is it in the Palestinian thread?  It's impetus started when the private files of Jewish citizens were posted online by a Tick Tock group.

 

Free speech has reasonable limits! 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Yoshiyoshi]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Victim blaming.

 

Innocent civilians will continue to die in conflicts around the world while people like you continue to find reasons to justify such acts. 

 

This is a breakdown of deaths and casualties between 2008 - 2020.

 

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

 

The Palestinians voted Hamas into power back in 2005, since then there has been no elections.

Hamas has crushed any dissent, opposition to their rule.

So how are the Palestinians meant to " vote " Hamas out of power.

 

The Palestinians have " got out of their way ".

Most of them have been displaced three or four times.

They go to where they will be told they are safe, and then they are attacked in what have been declared " safe humanitarian zones ". 

 

As I have stated so many times, I hate violence.

I have denounced the use of violence, anytime, anywhere.

Palestinians, Isrealis, Hezbollah.

Something no one else in this thread has done.

Violence does not solve problems, it only creates them.

So stop with your thinly veiled claim that I support terrorists.

 

 

You know what nation was successfully built upon the acts of terrorist groups ?

Isreal. 

They committed acts of terror against both Palestinians and the British. 

 

https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/jcs/article/view/10538/11136

 

One man's terrorist, another man's freedom fighter...  Right ?

 

No they, Hamas',  The Stern gang, The Irgun and The Lehi, were/are all terrorists.

 

 

It's so easy sitting half a world away in the safety of your own home, calling on others to risk, maybe sacrifice the lives of their children. 

 

I wouldn't sacrifice the life of my son for anything.

 

 

You keep missing the point and then go off on a tangent. Good for you for not being willing to risk your families lives for anything. So long as you recognize that this means that you are leeching off of the efforts of others who are willing to stand up and take risks. Every police officer and soldier puts their families at risk when they put the uniform on and do their jobs. True the risk of their families being targeted in retaliation is low in western countries because we have generations or relative peace in our nations but it still is a danger that cannot be ignored. If everyone thought the way you do, then democracy would die a quick death and we would be back to authoritarian regimes in the west. And there is nothing veiled about my claim of you supporting terrorism, i am right out saying it. What you do supports terrorism here. You are so caught up in your own narrative and biases that you cant see how you are aiding them. Every time you try to blame Israel for this conflict, every time you put the civilian casualties ahead of everything else in the conflict, every time you call for peace at any cost that is aiding Hamas in this conflict. There will be no peace ever if people adopt your position, and so long as you refuse to look at the faults in the foundation of your position and correct them, your "logic" will continue to lead you down paths that will only lead to more suffering in the world if people followed you.

 

Ok im done with this thread for now, kinda regret breaking my silence on this thread already. Seems like its rather pointless as everyone including me are already firmly convinced of our positions.

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Sorry but you took your eye off the ball here. If Saudi's normalized relations with Israel, after Egypt and Jordan already did, then that deal would have substantially removed the concept of "ALL OUR ARAB BROTHERS UNITE AGAINST THIS EVIL" as Hamas has been calling for sporadically since Oct 7th, and well before it too. 

As each legit Muslim government acknowledged Israels right to exist and moved to make ties with Israel, financial and political, it would have isolated for instance, the government of Gaza to a point where they would not think offhand that they had support from their 'Arab brothers' to murder 1200 people. Or to push to wipe Israel off the map..and thus they would need to negotiate from that point, and yes the likely outcome was even more peace, even more prosperity and a future where Gaza wasn't bombed into the stone age. 

 

Hamas chose the stone age rather than lose another pretend ally in the ever constant struggle to eliminate Israel. 

 

I didn't take my " eye off the ball ".

 

My reply was to taxis statement, 

"This would have likely also led to a permanent peace deal between the Isrealis and the Palestinians."

 

As that Britianica article points out, the Palestinians hadn't agreed to any peace deal, nor the Isrealis for that matter, had agreed to, or were even talking about any sort of deal between them and the Palestinians.

It's commonly known that Netanyahu, the whole time he has been in power doesn't want to make a deal with the Palestinians.

 

This was a deal purely between the Isrealis and the Saudi's.

Not the Palestinians as taxi claimed.

 

 

[Ilunga]

33 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

You keep missing the point and then go off on a tangent. Good for you for not being willing to risk your families lives for anything. So long as you recognize that this means that you are leeching off of the efforts of others who are willing to stand up and take risks. Every police officer and soldier puts their families at risk when they put the uniform on and do their jobs. True the risk of their families being targeted in retaliation is low in western countries because we have generations or relative peace in our nations but it still is a danger that cannot be ignored. If everyone thought the way you do, then democracy would die a quick death and we would be back to authoritarian regimes in the west. And there is nothing veiled about my claim of you supporting terrorism, i am right out saying it. What you do supports terrorism here. You are so caught up in your own narrative and biases that you cant see how you are aiding them. Every time you try to blame Israel for this conflict, every time you put the civilian casualties ahead of everything else in the conflict, every time you call for peace at any cost that is aiding Hamas in this conflict. There will be no peace ever if people adopt your position, and so long as you refuse to look at the faults in the foundation of your position and correct them, your "logic" will continue to lead you down paths that will only lead to more suffering in the world if people followed you.

 

Ok im done with this thread for now, kinda regret breaking my silence on this thread already. Seems like its rather pointless as everyone including me are already firmly convinced of our positions.

 

For starters, if everyone thought the way I do there would be no need for soldiers and guns. 

There wouldn't be violence full stop. 

 

 

 

I don't leech off anyone.

The only people who fought for my freedom were the WW2 Vets, and I honour and respect them them for their sacrifice. 

 

Actually Australian senior defence commanders just had their " military  honours " stripped yesterday for alleged war crimes against Afghanis. 

We also were part of the " coalition of the willing " who illegally invaded Iraq.

We were involved in the unjust war that was Vietnam. 

So don't talk to me about fighting for my freedom.

Aussie soldiers have committed war crimes in our name and participated in illegal and unjust wars.

 

 

I don't blame anyone, what I state, is what tens millions of people around the world state, that Isreals response to the October 7 attack is disproportionate. 

 

And you bet I put the civilian deaths ahead of everything else in this conflict, just as I do in every conflict.

You can replace land, and homes, but you can't replace people once they are killed. 

 

Screw you and I support Hamas bullshit.

Unlike you, I don't support anybody who  uses violence to achieve their ends. 

Not the Palestinians, not the Isrealis, not anyone full stop.

 

 

Ever wondered why our species always has, and always will fight pointless wars.

Because people like you find reasons to kill others.

 

You are not that much different to Hamas, in the sense you find a reason to kill innocent people.

Who are always the real victims of any war. 

 

I am trying to find reasons not to kill people.

Isn't that the opposite of Hamas' ?

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

 

So what does this tell you ?

 

Start supporting the Palestinians, the majority of which don't support Hamas' and want a ceasefire, according to this video.

 

Back them, throw your support behind them, as leaders in Gaza.

Show kindness and compassion to to the Palestinian people.

 

That's how you win hearts and minds.

[Yoshiyoshi]

49 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

For starters, if everyone thought the way I do there would be no need for soldiers and guns. 

There wouldn't be violence full stop. 

 

 

 

I don't leech off anyone.

The only people who fought for my freedom were the WW2 Vets, and I honour and respect them them for their sacrifice. 

 

Actually Australian senior defence commanders just had their " military  honours " stripped yesterday for alleged war crimes against Afghanis. 

We also were part of the " coalition of the willing " who illegally invaded Iraq.

We were involved in the unjust war that was Vietnam. 

So don't talk to me about fighting for my freedom.

Aussie soldiers have committed war crimes in our name and participated in illegal and unjust wars.

 

 

I don't blame anyone, what I state, is what tens millions of people around the world state, that Isreals response to the October 7 attack is disproportionate. 

 

And you bet I put the civilian deaths ahead of everything else in this conflict, just as I do in every conflict.

You can replace land, and homes, but you can't replace people once they are killed. 

 

Screw you and I support Hamas bullshit.

Unlike you, I don't support anybody who  uses violence to achieve their ends. 

Not the Palestinians, not the Isrealis, not anyone full stop.

 

 

Ever wondered why our species always has, and always will fight pointless wars.

Because people like you find reasons to kill others.

 

You are not that much different to Hamas, in the sense you find a reason to kill innocent people.

Who are always the real victims of any war. 

 

I am trying to find reasons not to kill people.

Isn't that the opposite of Hamas' ?

 

You just dont get it, and I dont know if i can find a way to explain it to you. This isnt even about Israel and Hamas atm, your whole philosophy is built on a lie. Peace is an unnatural state, it isnt something that is achieved, it is something that has to be continually fought for. If you dont fight for it, then it will eventually be lost. Violence is the way of the natural world, if you want to supress that then you have to fight against human nature. When you choose not to fight, when you choose to let those like Hamas get away with their violence, it just leads to more violence. So if doing nothing results in violence, and fighting back results in violence, then how can you justify a position of nonviolence as anything other than supporting the aggressors like Russia, Hamas in their violence? You put the lives of civilian Palestinians above the lives of civilian Israelis and other nations who are harmed by them, and then you say that its ok that they do nothing because they will be hurt and killed by Hamas if they speak up or fight back. What you are really saying here is that Palestinian lives are more important than Israeli lives. You are saying that self defence is wrong, and you are putting the onus of responsibility on the defender, the victim, to protect enemy civilians from their own ruling party.

[Ilunga]

10 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

You just dont get it, and I dont know if i can find a way to explain it to you. This isnt even about Israel and Hamas atm, your whole philosophy is built on a lie. Peace is an unnatural state, it isnt something that is achieved, it is something that has to be continually fought for. If you dont fight for it, then it will eventually be lost. Violence is the way of the natural world, if you want to supress that then you have to fight against human nature. When you choose not to fight, when you choose to let those like Hamas get away with their violence, it just leads to more violence. So if doing nothing results in violence, and fighting back results in violence, then how can you justify a position of nonviolence as anything other than supporting the aggressors like Russia, Hamas in their violence? You put the lives of civilian Palestinians above the lives of civilian Israelis and other nations who are harmed by them, and then you say that its ok that they do nothing because they will be hurt and killed by Hamas if they speak up or fight back. What you are really saying here is that Palestinian lives are more important than Israeli lives. You are saying that self defence is wrong, and you are putting the onus of responsibility on the defender, the victim, to protect enemy civilians from their own ruling party.

 

Peace is not a natural state ? 

 

No I don't accept that we as a species cannot evolve.

We can change.

 

I don't put Palestinian lives above Isreali lives, above Canadian lives, Australian lives.

All human life is important to me.

I don't identify as an Australian, I identify as a human being that shares this planet with 8.2 billion human beings, and 8.7 million other species. 

 

Isreal is not defending itself when it bombs refugee camps where they have told the Palestinian civilians they should move to.

They were not defending themselves when they killed a record amount of journalists in Gaza.

They were not defending themselves when they killed those aid workers.

And the UN workers, which apparently was the deadliest day ever for UN workers. 

 

These things are not self defence.

They are not defending themselves when settlers commit acts of terror in the west bank.

 

I put the onus on Isreal not to kill women and children. 

 

 

And you brought up Russia, I am glad you did.

I have actually donated money to humanitarian organisations that work in Ukraine helping kids.

I am totally against Russia annexing land in Ukraine.

I was long before this current war started.

 

Are you against Isreal annexing land in East Jerusalem and the West Bank ? 

 

You stated that there would be no democracy if everyone thought like me.

If everyone thought like me, we would take care of each other, and the planet we live on.

[Yoshiyoshi]

42 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

If everyone thought like me, we would take care of each other, and the planet we live on.

Ok ill give you that, if ever single person thought as you then it wouldnt be an issue. Unfortunately it only takes a small number of people to ruin things for everyone.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Ok ill give you that, if ever single person thought as you then it wouldnt be an issue. Unfortunately it only takes a small number of people to ruin things for everyone.

 

Yoshi, I had to learn the hard way that violence doesn't solve problems, it creates them. 

You not only hurt others, you hurt something inside yourself. 

 

You're right, it only takes a few bad apples.

But how are those " bad apples " created ?

In the case of this conflict, a never ending circle of hatred that has been fueled by violence for the better part of 100 years.

Violence that has been committed by both sides.

That's why I brought up the actions of the Isrealis back before there was an Isreal.

 

The Palestinians where victims of terror attacks back then. 

The Isrealis have been victims of terror attacks since the formation of the state of Isreal. 

 

Someone has to break this never ending cycle of violence. 

 

You stated things don't change.

After WW2 we, as a species created a set of rules that we are meant to follow in wars.

The guy who was the chief prosecutor during the Nuremberg war trials, Ben Ferenc, a Transylvanian Jew, had the dream and the drive to create the ICC, the International Criminal Court. 

It is meant to hold people who commit war crimes, crimes against humanity accountable for their actions.

 

We can evolve, we can be better than we are.

It's a lifelong journey becoming a better person.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

4 hours ago, Ilunga said:

So what does this tell you ?

 

Although it was an Israeli source?  I always mention I post because there is either good information, or a view to consider.  Even if to knock it back.  

 

I posted it because it speaks to Palestinians who want peace. Which I believed would be there...

 

It's messaging worth repeating.

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Although it was an Israeli source?  I always mention I post because there is either good information, or a view to consider.  Even if to knock it back.  

 

I posted it because it speaks to Palestinians who want peace. Which I believed would be there...

 

It's messaging worth repeating.

 

It was a rehortorical question.

 

My reply is stating the obvious. 

 

Treat people with kindness and compassion, and you will " win " their hearts and minds.

 

I know it's hard to treat others the way you wish to be treated when they fuck you over.

That's when it's the most important to stay true to who you are, and treat them with respect, dignity and compassion.

 

You know I practice what I preach in regards to this in my personal life.

 

 

[Boudrias]

4 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Although it was an Israeli source?  I always mention I post because there is either good information, or a view to consider.  Even if to knock it back.  

 

I posted it because it speaks to Palestinians who want peace. Which I believed would be there...

 

It's messaging worth repeating.

Until Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank start shooting Hamas members I have no belief they truly want peace. Israel and Saudi Arabia recognizing each other and building a ME economy together means something.  

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

Until Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank start shooting Hamas members I have no belief they truly want peace. Israel and Saudi Arabia recognizing each other and building a ME economy together means something.  

Younger Gazans are so brainwashed by Hamas to hate your hope is going to be extremely difficult. It’s going to take a couple generations for improvement. 

[Ilunga]

24 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Younger Gazans are so brainwashed by Hamas to hate your hope is going to be extremely difficult. It’s going to take a couple generations for improvement. 

 

Are you really interested in how real Isrealis/Jews and Palestinians view each other and the events of October 7 and the events in Gaza since then.

 

People that have real compassion and empathy in them. 

If course they are women.

 

" Many people would throw a tantrum at this point: An Isreali and a Palestinian discuss October 7, Gaza - and the future. "

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/13/israel-palestine-7-october-gaza-orna-guralnik

 

It's a bit of a read, I could quote a lot, however this part stands out.

The Isreali woman 

Orna states 

 

" As a couples therapist, I typically sit outside of a conflict, and I can almost always tune into each person and understand the reason why they're feeling the way they're feeling. Each desperately needs the other to understand. It's not about sitting there and convincing the other person they're wrong, and your right, but making room to really process the other person's experience. That business of getting out of your own perspective, holding it lightly and understanding another perspective - I believe in that. When it comes to the Palestinian - Israeli conflict, that's what I've always tried to do. 

 

One of the shocking things that happened to me on 7 October, and I think to many people, is that I temporarily lost that ability. When I first heard about what Hamas did, and heard from friends in Isreal about what they were going through, I was just like: " Oh I had it wrong. Maybe I was just a fool all along, and those extreme right wingers actually had it right." My whole internal system of making sense of the conflict in the middle east collapsed. I lost my ethics. I lost my purpose. I lost my belief. I was just like: "what am I doing? Sitting with couples thinking they can resolve their differences? Maybe it just all bullshit." It was a horrible place to be as a person. 

 

As I started reading what Isreal was doing in Gaza, Isreali narratives we're being spun to justify its war machine as if this was the only response imaginable. Once Israel unleashed the IDF on Gaza, I could no longer hold onto this idea that Isreal was just a victim, because it was not just a victim. And ever since I've gradually lost my identification with much of the Israeli narrative about itself, which is a very complicated place to be. I feel endless grief about Israel, what Isreal was, and what I understand it to be now. It's probably my deepest source of grief. " 

 

A real human being.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Younger Gazans are so brainwashed by Hamas to hate your hope is going to be extremely difficult. It’s going to take a couple generations for improvement. 

 

It's one of the reasons I said at the beginning of all this that there was only one way that this would play out.

 

If Gaza ever gets a government that wants peace then Palestine can be freed to something with a real future, particularly for women.

[Yoshiyoshi]

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Yoshi, I had to learn the hard way that violence doesn't solve problems, it creates them. 

You not only hurt others, you hurt something inside yourself. 

 

You're right, it only takes a few bad apples.

But how are those " bad apples " created ?

In the case of this conflict, a never ending circle of hatred that has been fueled by violence for the better part of 100 years.

Violence that has been committed by both sides.

That's why I brought up the actions of the Isrealis back before there was an Isreal.

 

The Palestinians where victims of terror attacks back then. 

The Isrealis have been victims of terror attacks since the formation of the state of Isreal. 

 

Someone has to break this never ending cycle of violence. 

 

You stated things don't change.

After WW2 we, as a species created a set of rules that we are meant to follow in wars.

The guy who was the chief prosecutor during the Nuremberg war trials, Ben Ferenc, a Transylvanian Jew, had the dream and the drive to create the ICC, the International Criminal Court. 

It is meant to hold people who commit war crimes, crimes against humanity accountable for their actions.

 

We can evolve, we can be better than we are.

It's a lifelong journey becoming a better person.

 

I cant remember if it was game theory, or something else. But there was this thing about behaviour that basically stated something along the lines of "if everyone followed the same rules, the most optimal strategy was for someone to break the rules" And this remains true until the number of people who break the rules reaches a certain percentage. When you talk about humans evolving to be better, what you need to remember is what evolution actually is. Evolution is about survival and reproduction, not morality. Morality is a human construct ,this is built on top of basic animal behaviours that humans have. It is not something that humans will evolve into, it is something that has to be trained. The "bad apples" as you call them are not created, not most of them, they are born that way, some can be fixed through education before its too late, but some will always be bad. That is why we have a justice system and jails to deal with those that emerge in our system (for whatever level of effectiveness it has) and it is why nations need militaries to protect themselves from the bad guys who aren't a part of the system. A peaceful society requires a strong enough method of projecting force to prevent bad guys from growing in sufficient strength to become a threat to the society overall. And yet we still have organized crime happening because no system is perfect and bad guys are really good at finding ways to break the rules and use the rules to protect themselves from the rules that are supposed to restrain them.

 

To reiterate, the natural state of the world is conflict between all animals hunting or being hunted for food, to reproduce, to survive. In nature the rule is might makes right. Humans have tried to change the rules, but those rules are built on top of the natural order and if you ignore these truths, whatever system of morality or society you build will only last as long as no one stronger than you chooses to destroy it. The United States is arguably the strongest nation in the world after WW2 so it is their system that has been spread through most of the world but even they dont have the strength to police the world in the manner required for there to be peace everywhere. Peaceful societies can only survive if they have the power to protect themselves from predators. And that power is not something that can be given, it is something that has to come from within. A free and just society will only come about for a people when a large enough percentage of the population is willing to fight against those who go against the well being of said society.

[Optimist Prime]

11 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I didn't take my " eye off the ball ".

 

My reply was to taxis statement, 

"This would have likely also led to a permanent peace deal between the Isrealis and the Palestinians."

 

As that Britianica article points out, the Palestinians hadn't agreed to any peace deal, nor the Isrealis for that matter, had agreed to, or were even talking about any sort of deal between them and the Palestinians.

It's commonly known that Netanyahu, the whole time he has been in power doesn't want to make a deal with the Palestinians.

 

This was a deal purely between the Isrealis and the Saudi's.

Not the Palestinians as taxi claimed.

 

 

K.

[Optimist Prime]

speaking to hamas mostly, but also their puppet masters in Terrorhan.

[DeNiro]

8 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

speaking to hamas mostly, but also their puppet masters in Terrorhan.

There’s a good South Park episode where religion is replaced with science and the civilization starts wars over who’s science is better.

 

Sadly humans will always find ways to divide and kill each other, religion or not.

[Optimist Prime]

8 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

There’s a good South Park episode where religion is replaced with science and the civilization starts wars over who’s science is better.

 

Sadly humans will always find ways to divide and kill each other, religion or not.

"religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion"

[Optimist Prime]

Sinwar has supposedly sent a letter to Hezbollah.

 

In it he makes the perfectly blunt case that he and Hamas must be destroyed. There is no future peace with Sinwar at large and Hamas in operation. Sadly, the methods of Hamas lead to terrible human suffering among their own people. Hopefully Sinwar is ferretted out in the coming weeks. The sooner he is no longer breathing, the better off every person in the region will be. 

 

Quote

In his letter to Nasrallah, Sinwar vowed to continue defending Islamic holy sites, particularly Jerusalem’s Al Aqsa Mosque “until the expulsion and eradication of the occupation from our land, and the establishment of our independent state with full sovereignty and its capital Jerusalem.”