Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Extremism at this level is never worth supporting. 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Taxi]

18 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Victim blaming.

 

Innocent civilians will continue to die in conflicts around the world while people like you continue to find reasons to justify such acts. 

 

This is a breakdown of deaths and casualties between 2008 - 2020.

 

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

 

The Palestinians voted Hamas into power back in 2005, since then there has been no elections.

Hamas has crushed any dissent, opposition to their rule.

So how are the Palestinians meant to " vote " Hamas out of power.

 

The Palestinians have " got out of their way ".

Most of them have been displaced three or four times.

They go to where they will be told they are safe, and then they are attacked in what have been declared " safe humanitarian zones ". 

 

As I have stated so many times, I hate violence.

I have denounced the use of violence, anytime, anywhere.

Palestinians, Isrealis, Hezbollah.

Something no one else in this thread has done.

Violence does not solve problems, it only creates them.

So stop with your thinly veiled claim that I support terrorists.

 

 

You know what nation was successfully built upon the acts of terrorist groups ?

Isreal. 

They committed acts of terror against both Palestinians and the British. 

 

https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/jcs/article/view/10538/11136

 

One man's terrorist, another man's freedom fighter...  Right ?

 

No they, Hamas',  The Stern gang, The Irgun and The Lehi, were/are all terrorists.

 

 

It's so easy sitting half a world away in the safety of your own home, calling on others to risk, maybe sacrifice the lives of their children. 

 

I wouldn't sacrifice the life of my son for anything.

 

 

 

The Palestinian Authority scheduled elections for May of 2021. They were cancelled by Fatah, after it looked like Hamas would win in both the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In the Gaza Strip their support was very high. The idea that Hamas was operating without support from the Palestinian population is false.

[DeNiro]

2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

"religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion"

Good people aren’t really good if they’d do evil things religion or not.

 

Religion is how evil people can disguise themselves as good people.

 

 

Edited Friday at 06:45 PM by DeNiro

[Optimist Prime]

2 hours ago, DeNiro said:

Good people aren’t really good if they’d do evil things religion or not.

 

Religion is how evil people can disguise themselves as good people.

 

 

You are not wrong, but you aren't considering all the devout followers who will do that their spiritual leader suggests without considering consequences. Extremist Muslims, abortion doctor shooters, Jonestown cultists, and millions of other examples where generally good people were still thinking they were doing the lords work while dong bad things. Without the cult leaders (imo they are all cults) pushing them to act in certain ways, hate certain people or activities and generally oppose anyone else doing things their cult leader thinks is bad; then these otherwise good people would generally remain good people. I think.  The ones who say ''without god in your life, aren't you just gonna murder and rape, cuz there are no rules?" Those ones worry me as I suspect they would want to murder and rape if they lost their belief in an eternal afterlife. lol. 

[Optimist Prime]

One thing I am thankful for is the massive reduction in non combatant deaths in Gaza since the first 200 days of this war.

 

at the 200 day mark, around Apr 23 2024 'More than 34,000 Palestinians have been killed". 

 

as of September 8th 2024, almost five months later, 41,000 Palestinians have been killed. 7000 in five months, the vast majority of whom were in those Hamas brigades mentioned in the video a few posts up. 

 

Inshallah, Israel can finish off Hamas with even lower civvy casualties between now and the end. 

[Canuck Surfer]

18 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

Back them, throw your support behind them, as leaders in Gaza.

Show kindness and compassion to to the Palestinian people.

 

Here is bravery & compassion. Egyptian, but fled the Muslim Brotherhood to be an activist in the US. 2 Minutes 40 in, is the part where she identifies protest leaders at places like Columbia University. Egypt no longer is ruled, but is in the throws of pressure, by the Muslim Brotherhood. Palestinians need people like her to surface!

 

She also supports Israel.

 

  

[Canuck Surfer]

Last week when Israel bombed a chemical site, used to ''make bombs & chemical weapons'' in Syria? 

 

There was apparently a special ops ground operation as well. Taking Iranian & Syrian militants hostage, but also destroying a Russian communication center.

 

 

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

"religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion"

 

I have debunked Weinberg's assertion a few times on this, and the old board. 

 

There are a few reasons why sometimes, " good " people do " bad " things. 

 

https://psychcentral.com/health/reasons-why-good-people-do-bad-things

 

Past traumas and adverse life events. 

 

Survival mode.

 

Need to Belong

Societal pressure or influence.

 

Lack of self awareness.

 

These next could be applied to this conflict if you indeed believe that Israel are the " good guys " 

 

The greater good, the end justifies the means.

 

Misguided Justice.

 

Mental health disorders. 

 

 

So as you can see, Weinberg's quote is disengenous.

 

Edit 

 

And to expand on this brother, every single person will do " bad "  things at some point in their life. 

That's part of being human.

 

Edited Saturday at 01:17 AM by Ilunga

[Ilunga]

6 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

The Palestinian Authority scheduled elections for May of 2021. They were cancelled by Fatah, after it looked like Hamas would win in both the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In the Gaza Strip their support was very high. The idea that Hamas was operating without support from the Palestinian population is false.

 

 

What has any of this to do with the fact that there has been no elections in Gaza since Hamas was first elected ?

 

I have no doubt that some Gazans support Hamas'.

Did you take note of the video @Canuck Surfer posted yesterday ?

A poll which stated over 90 percent of Gazans that were polled were sick of Hamas. 

 

Are you going to address the fact that you were wrong when you stated that the Saudi deal would have likely led to a permanent peace deal between the Isrealis and the Palestinians ?

 

Would you like to address the facts that Isreal has been using Palestinians as human shields as far back as 2002 ?

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200211_human_shield

 

Would you like to address the fact of " Jewish terror ", to use the head of Shin Bets words, in the west bank ?

 

Or will you just ignore these things and pop back later to make some other false claim without any evidence to back it up.

 

 

[Ilunga]

9 hours ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

I cant remember if it was game theory, or something else. But there was this thing about behaviour that basically stated something along the lines of "if everyone followed the same rules, the most optimal strategy was for someone to break the rules" And this remains true until the number of people who break the rules reaches a certain percentage. When you talk about humans evolving to be better, what you need to remember is what evolution actually is. Evolution is about survival and reproduction, not morality. Morality is a human construct ,this is built on top of basic animal behaviours that humans have. It is not something that humans will evolve into, it is something that has to be trained. The "bad apples" as you call them are not created, not most of them, they are born that way, some can be fixed through education before its too late, but some will always be bad. That is why we have a justice system and jails to deal with those that emerge in our system (for whatever level of effectiveness it has) and it is why nations need militaries to protect themselves from the bad guys who aren't a part of the system. A peaceful society requires a strong enough method of projecting force to prevent bad guys from growing in sufficient strength to become a threat to the society overall. And yet we still have organized crime happening because no system is perfect and bad guys are really good at finding ways to break the rules and use the rules to protect themselves from the rules that are supposed to restrain them.

 

To reiterate, the natural state of the world is conflict between all animals hunting or being hunted for food, to reproduce, to survive. In nature the rule is might makes right. Humans have tried to change the rules, but those rules are built on top of the natural order and if you ignore these truths, whatever system of morality or society you build will only last as long as no one stronger than you chooses to destroy it. The United States is arguably the strongest nation in the world after WW2 so it is their system that has been spread through most of the world but even they dont have the strength to police the world in the manner required for there to be peace everywhere. Peaceful societies can only survive if they have the power to protect themselves from predators. And that power is not something that can be given, it is something that has to come from within. A free and just society will only come about for a people when a large enough percentage of the population is willing to fight against those who go against the well being of said society.

 

 

This is a good post, however there is so much to unpack in it. 

A topic like this deserves its own thread. 

 

The point that is at the heart of your post is your claim that humans " bad apple's "  are not created, they are born this way. 

 

This has been debated by Philosophers since Aristotle argued that morality is something that is learned. 

Freud states that we are born as a moral " blank slate ".

 

There was a fascinating study conducted, babies less than a year old were made to watch a puppet show where different coloured shapes acted in different ways that were clearly recognisably as morally right or wrong. 

A red circle is shown struggling to climb a hill while an " evil " blue square is tries to push it back down. 

Meanwhile " good " yellow attempts to help the red circle by pushing it up.

After watching this play, the babies were asked which shape they wanted to play with, the blue square or the yellow triangle.

They all picked the the yellow triangle.

Apparently even babies as young as seven months chose the " good " yellow triangle.

 

 

 

This replicates from the findings of a 2010 study from the infant cognition centre at Yale University which went further to prove that babies were choosing the puppets because of their actions rather than any other variables, for example an innate preference for familiarity with a certain colour or shape. When the show was replayed with the shapes taking on the opposite role, the infants still mostly chose the shape that had taken in the role of helper. 

 

Then there was a study in 2017 conducted at Kyoto University.

Children as young as six months were shown video featuring three Pacman like characters called agents, a " victim " and a " bully " bumping aggressively against the victim and squashing it into a wall, and a "third party" agent. The third party agent would sometimes intervene to help the victim by putting itself between the victim and the bully and would sometimes flee instead.

After watch the video their preferred character and most chose the intervening third party agent who had tried to help the victim.

 

There is also the Harvard " Big Mother " study.

Where infants that didn't know they were being observed still acted kind were helpful to others, suggesting this isn't just a learned behaviour to avoid punishment or scrutiny. 

 

This is the article I sources the above info from.

https://www.bbcearth.com/news/are-we-born-good-or-evil-naughty-or-nice

 

This data suggests that we are born " altruistic" which is a better term than good.

 

Good and bad are subjective things determined by a majority in any given group of people. 

 

The subject of nature versus nurture has fascinated me for decades.

Is it our nature to be either good or bad, or is it the circumstances we are brought up in.

 

After 60 years of life experience, and studying this subject for well over 40 years I am reasonably certain it's a mixture of both nature and nurture that determines the sort of person we turn out to be.

 

Bottom line is we make our own choices about the person we want to be.

I want to be a kind person, a compassionate person. 

Not only that, ever since I can remember, seeing others suffer triggers something inside of me.

For want of a better word it hurts me to see people suffering, especially children. 

This leads me to believe that maybe one is born with empathy.

My parents who were very kind and compassionate people themselves used to ask me, why do I care so much ?

I had no answer for them, I just do.

 

I act on these feeling's by supporting organisations and people that help kids that are " suffering".

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Here is bravery & compassion. Egyptian, but fled the Muslim Brotherhood to be an activist in the US. 2 Minutes 40 in, is the part where she identifies protest leaders at places like Columbia University. Egypt no longer is ruled, but is in the throws of pressure, by the Muslim Brotherhood. Palestinians need people like her to surface!

 

She also supports Israel.

 

  

 

You have posted this video before. 

 

I can, and have posted videos and articles of Isrealis/Jews who are disgusted/ashamed/repudiate Israel's actions in Gaza.

As recently as last night.  

 

As I have stated before, it gets down to whether you believe killing thousands of women and children, injuring nearly a hundred thousand more Palestinians.

Destroying and entire enclave, is a proportionate response to the events of October 7. 

I along with millions of people around the world including Isreali/Jews don't believe this is a proportionate response.

 

 

The body the international community set up to determine what sort of behaviour is " legal " in conflicts/wars does not believe the Isreali response is within the boundaries of international law.

 

But who cares about this right ?

[Yoshiyoshi]

11 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

The point that is at the heart of your post is your claim that humans " bad apple's "  are not created, they are born this way. 

 

 

this is not exactly what i said, I said that some are born that way. Some bad people will always exist and no matter what you do they will always be bad. The opposite type also exist, some people no matter what is done to them or how much they suffer, they will always remain good. There is no 100% one or the other in reality. There are the others who are created through life experience which probably consist of the majority of those considered bad, they can be prevented from becoming bad if the triggers that turn them "bad" are removed and the environment around them doesnt push them towards "bad". As to the ones who are born that way, there are many possible reasons for it, dont think there is an answer to why they exist, but they do exist.

[Ilunga]

5 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

One thing I am thankful for is the massive reduction in non combatant deaths in Gaza since the first 200 days of this war.

 

at the 200 day mark, around Apr 23 2024 'More than 34,000 Palestinians have been killed". 

 

as of September 8th 2024, almost five months later, 41,000 Palestinians have been killed. 7000 in five months, the vast majority of whom were in those Hamas brigades mentioned in the video a few posts up. 

 

Inshallah, Israel can finish off Hamas with even lower civvy casualties between now and the end. 

 

And you know why this is ?

Because of international pressure on Isreal to stop killing women and children. 

 

It took things like threats by the US to suspend military aid.

[Ilunga]

12 minutes ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

this is not exactly what i said, I said that some are born that way. Some bad people will always exist and no matter what you do they will always be bad. The opposite type also exist, some people no matter what is done to them or how much they suffer, they will always remain good. There is no 100% one or the other in reality. There are the others who are created through life experience which probably consist of the majority of those considered bad, they can be prevented from becoming bad if the triggers that turn them "bad" are removed and the environment around them doesnt push them towards "bad". As to the ones who are born that way, there are many possible reasons for it, dont think there is an answer to why they exist, but they do exist.

 

You stated, "  bad apples " are not created, they are born this way ".

 

Can you provide any empirical evidence to back up this assertion.

 

I have provided information from studies that have been conducted that lead us to believe that humans are born altruistic. 

 

Again, I have studied the topic of nature v nurture for decades. 

 

I don't believe anyone is born " bad ". 

 

To a some extent we are a product of our environment. 

As C.J. Heck stated, 

"We are all products of our environment, every person we meet, every new experience or adventure, every book we read, touches and changes us, making us the unique being we are. "

 

Do you believe you are what is termed as a good person ?

 

Now it's not up to me to pass judgement on myself, that can only be done by those who know me.

Seven years ago I had a really messy break up.

Amongst other things I got character references from people who know me well and are respected by society.

They used words like, kind, compassionate, has empathy for others. 

To be viewed by the people I respect and love, in this way, I believe, means I have been a successful person. 

Material things mean nothing to me, those character references are some of my most treasured " possessions ".

 

I have done both good and bad things during my life.

Just as we all have.

I believe I have done more good, than bad. 

[Yoshiyoshi]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

You stated, "  bad apples " are not created, they are born this way ".

 

Can you provide any empirical evidence to back up this assertion.

 

I have provided information from studies that have been conducted that lead us to believe that humans are born altruistic. 

 

Again, I have studied the topic of nature v nurture for decades. 

 

I don't believe anyone is born " bad ". 

 

To a some extent we are a product of our environment. 

As C.J. Heck stated, 

"We are all products of our environment, every person we meet, every new experience or adventure, every book we read, touches and changes us, making us the unique being we are. "

 

Do you believe you are what is termed as a good person ?

 

Now it's not up to me to pass judgement on myself, that can only be done by those who know me.

Seven years ago I had a really messy break up.

Amongst other things I got character references from people who know me well and are respected by society.

They used words like, kind, compassionate, has empathy for others. 

To be viewed by the people I respect and love, in this way, I believe, means I have been a successful person. 

Material things mean nothing to me, those character references are some of my most treasured " possessions ".

 

I have done both good and bad things during my life.

Just as we all have.

I believe I have done more good, than bad. 

Rereading my original post, i do see that i screwed up what i was trying to say there. The second post more accurately reflects what i am trying to say with that line.

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Yoshiyoshi said:

Rereading my original post, i do see that i screwed up what i was trying to say there. The second post more accurately reflects what i am trying to say with that line.

 

Here's another piece of life experience.

 

One of my friends from when I was younger, fucking shit up, grew up watching his dad beat his mum, and his dad beat him up as well. 

He was a big boy, at thirteen years of age he beat the crap out his dad.

He told me his dad never touched his mum or him again.

 

A few years later he started going out with another friend of mine.

After a while he started to hit her.

I used to say to him, you hated it when your dad hit your mum, why are you doing this to Pam.

He told me to mind my own business, and even hit me a few times when I tried to intervene.

 

Apparently a large percentage of boys who witness their dad hit their mum go onto to do the same thing themselves.

 

Then there are kids who are sexually abused.

Again a large percentage of them repeat the behaviour that they endured. 

 

My friend broke this cycle of behaviour eventually.

He married another girl, had two boys, was a fantastic father and partner. 

 

Until someone can provide me with evidence that a person is born " bad " I refuse to believe this is the case. 

 

Are there " bad " people out there ?

For sure.  

 

Here is another life story, and how it pertains to using violence to change human behaviour. 

We used to fight with racist skinheads in the western suburbs of Melbourne back in the day. 

Beating the crap out of them did not stop them from being racist. 

 

I sometimes wonder what sort of people those guys have turned into.

Have they maintained their racist beliefs.

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Optimist Prime]

20 hours ago, Ilunga said:

The body the international community set up to determine what sort of behaviour is " legal " in conflicts/wars does not believe the Isreali response is within the boundaries of international law.

 

But who cares about this right ?

Correct.

Quote

Abstract

Of the thousands of potential cases that could have been investigated by the International Criminal Court (ICC), only 44 individuals have been indicted...

....Scholars in the field have not adequately addressed why cases come before the ICC and how this process may result in a full hearing and verdict. Because of these gaps, empirically-informed recommendations for areas of improvement for the ICC are also largely absent. To begin to fill these gaps, this research uses a systematic analysis of ICC cases to answer a central question: Under what conditions is the ICC most likely to be successful in achieving confirmation of charges, where the Prosecutor’s efforts result in moving towards a trial? I hypothesize that this comes from state biases, state cooperation, and domestic politics. Case studies from Uganda, Sudan, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and Mali seem to confirm this hypothesis.

quoted bit is from a 105 page paper on "International Law and Human Rights: The Effectiveness of the International Criminal Court in Prosecuting Human Rights Violations" which frankly I don't expect anyone else to read. 

 

In short the ICC is at worst, irrelevant, and at best, only effective where there is no large disagreement between the 200 some odd nation states on earth. 44 indictments in the entire modern history of humanity? Hrm. At any rate the ICC could be a deterrent towards inhumane actions during war, but they are not a solution to that war, the are the court that generally takes over after the conflict is resolved. The ICC has a case presented by South Africa with no evidence simply doesn't equate to anything that generally either belligerent cares about in Gaza right now, and generally is only presented by Hamas side as an attempt to sway global opinion against the adversary they will fight to the death to destroy. 
So yeah, i am in that who cares camp at the moment. 

[Ilunga]

53 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Correct.

quoted bit is from a 105 page paper on "International Law and Human Rights: The Effectiveness of the International Criminal Court in Prosecuting Human Rights Violations" which frankly I don't expect anyone else to read. 

 

In short the ICC is at worst, irrelevant, and at best, only effective where there is no large disagreement between the 200 some odd nation states on earth. 44 indictments in the entire modern history of humanity? Hrm. At any rate the ICC could be a deterrent towards inhumane actions during war, but they are not a solution to that war, the are the court that generally takes over after the conflict is resolved. The ICC has a case presented by South Africa with no evidence simply doesn't equate to anything that generally either belligerent cares about in Gaza right now, and generally is only presented by Hamas side as an attempt to sway global opinion against the adversary they will fight to the death to destroy. 
So yeah, i am in that who cares camp at the moment. 

 

So because something isn't perfect we shouldn't try and fix it ?

We shouldn't try and be better than we are ? 

 

Maybe we should go back to butchering each other.

Pillaging and raping.

 

So how do you feel about the ICC's arrest warrants for Putin and other Russian officials ?

While they might not be effective now, we the civilised world are sending a message, stating, we won't tolerate people like you. 

 

And I wasn't talking about the case that South Africa has brought before the ICC.

 

I am talking about the arrest warrants that have been issued for Netanyahu and Sinwar for war crimes we all know both sides have committed. 

There is overwhelming evidence that both Palestinian and Israelis have committed war crimes. 

 

I am sick of people who advocate the use of the violence insinuating, or accusing me of supporting people who do.

 

So I am calling you out, are you claiming I support Hamas with that comment about it is only brought up by the Hamas side ?

 

This is what people who think using violence against others do to people who advocate using peaceful means to settle our differences.

They mock them, try and discredit them. 

 

I am proud to be a person like Martin Luther King who advocated using peaceful means to fight against persecution/oppression. 

 

 

People including yourself have used Weinbergs quote about Religion making good people do bad things.

 

Well here is a quote from Ben Ferenc, the man who was the Chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials, who fought for international justice.

His work was crucial in the formation of the ICC.

As he states, 

 

" War makes murderers out of otherwise decent people "

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

So because something isn't perfect we shouldn't try and fix it ?

We shouldn't try and be better than we are ? 

The elimination of Hamas senior leadership will collectively make humanity better than we are

Maybe we should go back to butchering each other.

Pillaging and raping.

Dude, I get you, and I like you, but come on: when did the collective "we' ever stop pillaging and raping>? In fact this war started with Palestinians, some UN employees, some Drs and some Press Corp members, along with Hamas, their government, looting pillaging and raping, along with murdering 1200 people and stealing another 250 or so. 

I am sick of people who advocate the use of the violence insinuating, or accusing me of supporting people who do.

You yourself in 95% of your communication have taken a side, own it. You don't support Hamas but you certainly don't support what needs to be done to eliminate them.

So I am calling you out, are you claiming I support Hamas with that comment about it is only brought up by the Hamas side ?

Better minds than mine have spoken at length about how unscrupulous terror organizations rely upon the global pressure brought upon their enemies by folks who, rightly so, love peace. You are a well meaning soul. I applaud that aspect of you. 

Well here is a quote from Ben Ferenc, the man who was the Chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials, who fought for international justice.

His work was crucial in the formation of the ICC.

The Nuremberg trials came after an incredibly horrid conflict that embroiled the globe and all humanity. The winners prosecuted the losers there. 

You packed a lot in there, so i just answered in bold at each line, Have a great day. 

[Ilunga]

3 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

You packed a lot in there, so i just answered in bold at each line, Have a great day. 

 

I totally agree that eliminating the Hamas leadership will make both Isreal and the occupied Palestinian territories a better/safer place to be.

That both peoples will be better off without them in the picture. 

 

But killing and injuring tens of thousands in the process ?

Destroying a whole enclave.

Killing reporters and aid workers.

Resorting to using the tactics the terrorists (Hamas) use.

Using people as human shields. 

 

This is what sometimes happens in war, you become what you are fighting.

This often happens when the " enemy " is so brutal themselves.

 

As I brought up in this thread and another, Aussie soldiers committed war crimes in Afghanistan.

So far they have only been " stripped " of their medals.

These people need to be brought to justice.

Face the consequences of their actions. 

They committed these crimes in the name of the Australian people. 

They have not only shamed us, they have left an indelible mark on our country's reputation.

 

People don't support terror organisations.

What many people, including many  Isreali/Jewish people are horrified by, is the loss of civilian life.

The sheer amount of destruction.

The biggest cohort of child amputees in history. 

The level of human suffering the people who are still alive are enduring.

 

The Nuremberg war trials wasn't just the winners prosecuting the losers.

It was the civilised world holding the people who committed one of the worst attrocities in history to account for their actions.

It signalled a moment in the history of our species where we said enough. 

Sure we have gone backwards since.

There have been genocides since.

That's the story of human beings, both on a personal and societal level, one step forwards two steps backwards. 

 

I know, as a species we will never sit around together singing Kumbaya and always agreeing. 

I hope one day that we can settle our differences without killing each other. 

 

 

Thank you for those kind words.

I am sorry if my post was edgy.

These constant attacks, not just on my character, but upon my belief system are wearing my patience levels down.

[Optimist Prime]

You reminded me of one of my longest standing favourite songs. I had to give it another listen. cheers Dave. @Ilunga

Spoiler

Watching them come and go
The Templars and the Saracens
They're travelling the holy land
Opening telegrams
Torture comes and torture goes
Knights who'd give you anything
They bear the cross of Coeur de Leon
Salvation for the mirror blind

But if you pray
All your sins are hooked upon the sky
Pray and the heathen lie will disappear

Prayers they hide the saddest view
(Believing the strangest things, loving the alien)
And your prayers, they break the sky in two
(Believing the strangest things, loving the alien)

Thinking of a different time
Palestine a modern problem
Bounty and your wealth in land
Terror in a best laid plan
Watching them come and go
Tomorrows and the yesterdays
Christians and the unbelievers
Hanging by the cross and nail

But if you pray
All your sins are hooked upon the sky
Pray and the heathen lie will disappear

Prayers they hide the saddest view
(Believing the strangest things, loving the alien)
And your prayers, they break the sky in two
(Believing the strangest things, loving the alien)

You pray 'til the break of dawn
(Believing the strangest things, loving the alien)
And you'll believe you're loving the alien