JIAHN Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 17 minutes ago, Bob Long said: I am unclear on what the Wests responsibility is in modern Africa to end conflicts there. Where are the blue helmets? A damned good question! Jimbo! In a perfect world, the major powers of the world.........USA, China, Russia, India, England, France and Germany would put in a death squad, into Africa, and exterminate the vermin........but the truth is................they are the ones, in there causing the shit! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 Anyway, I am off to study some issues related to statelessness. Not specific, but like victims of the ''Nakba.'' Catch everyone tomorrow. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIAHN Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 3 minutes ago, Ilunga said: If the west has a responsibility to support the Ukrainians against russian aggression, don't we have just as an important responsibility to support the the Sudanese people who are facing one of the world's biggest Humanitarian crisise ? https://www.rescue.org/article/crisis-sudan-what-happening-and-how-help Or do we limit our " aid ", help, to military conflicts. We can build guns, bombs, tanks, shells etc. Why can't we provide humanitarian aid to those who so desperately need it. Again....you are so damned Naive It isn't about being a good human.... It's about power! And your own standard of living! Come on! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 5 minutes ago, Ilunga said: If the west has a responsibility to support the Ukrainians against russian aggression, don't we have just as an important responsibility to support the the Sudanese people who are facing one of the world's biggest Humanitarian crisise ? https://www.rescue.org/article/crisis-sudan-what-happening-and-how-help Or do we limit our " aid ", help, to military conflicts. We can build guns, bombs, tanks, shells etc. Why can't we provide humanitarian aid to those who so desperately need it. Off the top of my head I'd say political stability. It's a lot easier to support Ukraine than a state run the way Sudan is. Do we overtake that government and install one? Maybe that's the only solution to end hunger there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: I disagree with this. Like Nagasaki & Hiroshima, a million plus dead when you add Dresden etc.. Were clearly war crimes, and examples of punishing civilians to get to ''the bad guys?'' A point you have made relative to Israel killing civilians in Gaza. While in principle, I agree with quoting Nuremberg lawyers assessment of current conflicts. As you have also done. 100% agree in principle! In practice, Nuremberg almost exclusively punished those on the losing outcome of the war. As above, in practice the ICC is pretty toothless. Except when a special ops crew can nab an African strongman in exile, or a war was decided in the former Yugoslavia. Those accountabilities, in fact, were established after the fact. Has not stopped these same conflicts from recurring, or threatening to, with new personalities. There have not been a great # of conflicts resolved by establishing the ICC. As I stated, Bomber Harris's tactic of bombing Germany cities was very controversial. I used to " argue " with my dad about the fire bombing of both Dresden and to a lesser degree Frankfurt. I was arguing with a person who lived through the fire bombing of Coventry, so he wasn't exactly unbiased, and it was hard to get him to see my point. As for the atomic bombs, I don't believe the Allies had much choice, especially with the first bomb. Estimates of up to a million dead, if they had to invade mainland Japan. They were intercepting Japanese communications and they weren't indicating a full surrender. Arguments can be made for both using the bomb or not. Nuremberg was primarily set up to prosecute the people who had committed crimes/crimes against humanity. They weren't prosecuting people because they lost a war, they were prosecuting them for their conduct during the war. So because a good idea is not currently working well, we should give up on it ? Don't worry about people who commit war crimes/crimes against humanity ? Don't, at the very least put a target on people like putins back ? It's a matter of will, not of matter of whether it's the right thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 7 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Do we overtake that government and install one? Maybe that's the only solution to end hunger there. You are bang on right there. Put them on trial at the Hague. Not only help the Sudanese people, but also make an example of the people who exploit them. Who have caused their suffering. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 17 minutes ago, JIAHN said: Again....you are so damned Naive It isn't about being a good human.... It's about power! And your own standard of living! Come on! It's always about being a good human being with me. It's a never ending journey trying to be better than I am. In all facets of my life. I don't have much of a standard of living. I live cheap as fuck. My needs are simple. It makes me happy that I make sacrifices so I can help others that are far less fortunate than me. In a way, I do this for selfish reasons, helping others makes me feel good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 17 minutes ago, Ilunga said: You are bang on right there. Put them on trial at the Hague. Not only help the Sudanese people, but also make an example of the people who exploit them. Who have caused their suffering. Do we have the fortitude to use the UN this way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 6 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Do we have the fortitude to use the UN this way? I wish those that call the shots did. IMO, it's situations like this that the UN was created for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 1 hour ago, Ilunga said: So because a good idea is not currently working well, we should give up on it ? Not at all! That is for the future; if and when the body (ICC or?) has clout. Very unfortunately! Its hard to argue any point in the post I picked this quote from. The world governed by a rule of law would be a good place to get to! Except I just doubt you will convince Israel not to attack Gaza while Sinwar has hostages; a commitment to do it again & again. To stop bombing Lebanon, where Hezbollah has also actively broken their promise not to militarize the area south of Litani River. Worse has been launching those 9000 odd rockets, 3000 plus drones and other projectiles from this zone. Israel is the stronger military power, they are not going to allow a smaller power to attack them. On an going basis because of a legal idealism. In the meantime; I continue to propose Israel start making concept offers of peace for Palestinians. For Palestinians; not Hamas, Hezbollah etc. * I would have done exactly the same pre-Oct 7? But thats me. * The opportunity is stronger now. * Cough, the reports I have read, cough, suggest 70% of Hamas capacity is gone, 80% of leadership & 10% of physical capacity of Hezbollah destroyed. * The numbers are debatable, but Hamas has less capacity to rule by force! Lack of leadership makes Hezbollah vulnerable. * A vastly higher % of Palestinians would view better options for themselves? So its a good opportunity to split the people, actual victims, amongst Palestinians from militants. Give us our hostages, and Hamas to lay down arms. We'll help start helping to rebuild & allow the groundwork for your autonomy. Make it public! That puts pressure on Palestinians to disavow Hamas. Its also important to world view. Even just making the offer; it puts pressure on Iran's proxies to have a legitimate stance. Makes proxies criminals in public view when they launch attacks! I know and you know, we know, Iran's proxies are not after peace for Palestinians. They should not be idealized as knights in shining armour for Palestinians. What they really want is control for themselves! Using their extremist version of religious zeal as a secondary appeal for it being holy. Unfortunately anything sounds holy to many in the world; when tens of thousands of women & children are dying. So Israel would be wise to make this appeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Not at all! That is for the future; if and when the body (ICC or?) has clout. Very unfortunately! Its hard to argue any point in the post I picked this quote from. The world governed by a rule of law would be a good place to get to! Except I just doubt you will convince Israel not to attack Gaza while Sinwar has hostages; a commitment to do it again & again. To stop bombing Lebanon, where Hezbollah has also actively broken their promise not to militarize the area south of Litani River. Worse has been launching those 9000 odd rockets, 3000 plus drones and other projectiles from this zone. Israel is the stronger military power, they are not going to allow a smaller power to attack them. On an going basis because of a legal idealism. In the meantime; I continue to propose Israel start making concept offers of peace for Palestinians. For Palestinians; not Hamas, Hezbollah etc. * I would have done exactly the same pre-Oct 7? But thats me. * The opportunity is stronger now. * Cough, the reports I have read, cough, suggest 70% of Hamas capacity is gone, 80% of leadership & 10% of physical capacity of Hezbollah destroyed. * The numbers are debatable, but Hamas has less capacity to rule by force! Lack of leadership makes Hezbollah vulnerable. * A vastly higher % of Palestinians would view better options for themselves? So its a good opportunity to split the people, actual victims, amongst Palestinians from militants. Give us our hostages, and Hamas to lay down arms. We'll help start helping to rebuild & allow the groundwork for your autonomy. Make it public! That puts pressure on Palestinians to disavow Hamas. Its also important to world view. Even just making the offer; it puts pressure on Iran's proxies to have a legitimate stance. Makes proxies criminals in public view when they launch attacks! I know and you know, we know, Iran's proxies are not after peace for Palestinians. They should not be idealized as knights in shining armour for Palestinians. What they really want is control for themselves! Using their extremist version of religious zeal as a secondary appeal for it being holy. Unfortunately anything sounds holy to many in the world; when tens of thousands of women & children are dying. So Israel would be wise to make this appeal. As I have stated so many times, and has history has proven, you can't defeat an insurgency with military force. Tomorrows terrorists have been born in the last 12 months in Gaza. Kids who have seen their parents killed. Their homes, schools and infrastructure destroyed. The most powerful military force in the world has been defeated, or at the very least given up, fighting insurgencies over the years. Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq to name a few. As I keep on saying you have to replace their motivation to kill the " other " with a better idea. The idea that there is hope for a better future for them. Edited October 11 by Ilunga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 4 hours ago, Ilunga said: As I have stated so many times, and has history has proven, you can't defeat an insurgency with military force. Tomorrows terrorists have been born in the last 12 months in Gaza. Kids who have seen their parents killed. Their homes, schools and infrastructure destroyed. The most powerful military force in the world has been defeated, or at the very least given up, fighting insurgencies over the years. Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq to name a few. As I keep on saying you have to replace their motivation to kill the " other " with a better idea. The idea that there is hope for a better future for them. So you would make the appeal? Spoiler 4 hours ago, Ilunga said: In the meantime; I continue to propose Israel start making concept offers of peace for Palestinians. For Palestinians; not Hamas, Hezbollah etc. * I would have done exactly the same pre-Oct 7? But thats me. * The opportunity is stronger now. * Cough, the reports I have read, cough, suggest 70% of Hamas capacity is gone, 80% of leadership & 10% of physical capacity of Hezbollah destroyed. * The numbers are debatable, but Hamas has less capacity to rule by force! Lack of leadership makes Hezbollah vulnerable. * A vastly higher % of Palestinians would view better options for themselves? So its a good opportunity to split the people, actual victims, amongst Palestinians from militants. Give us our hostages, and Hamas to lay down arms. We'll help start helping to rebuild & allow the groundwork for your autonomy. Make it public! That puts pressure on Palestinians to disavow Hamas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 24 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: So you would make the appeal? Reveal hidden contents How do you win hearts and minds ? Through fear ? Or through kindness and compassion ? I was reading this report that was dated back in May, the costs could be greater now. It could take $40-50 billion and until 2040 to rebuild much of Gaza. If you can find someone to fund it. https://www.voanews.com/a/un-reconstructing-gaza-could-cost-50-billion/7595519.html A least biased source. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/voice-of-america/ Shocking the details contained in that report.... Yes ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 59 minutes ago, Ilunga said: How do you win hearts and minds ? Through fear ? Or through kindness and compassion ? I was reading this report that was dated back in May, the costs could be greater now. It could take $40-50 billion and until 2040 to rebuild much of Gaza. If you can find someone to fund it. https://www.voanews.com/a/un-reconstructing-gaza-could-cost-50-billion/7595519.html A least biased source. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/voice-of-america/ Shocking the details contained in that report.... Yes ? You have to answer your question first... Would you make the appeal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 12 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: You have to answer your question first... Would you make the appeal? No. I would be like Ariel Bernstein. https://www.npr.org/2023/12/05/1217452079/an-israeli-man-remembers-his-gazan-friend Actions speak louder than words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 2 minutes ago, Ilunga said: No. I would be like Ariel Bernstein. https://www.npr.org/2023/12/05/1217452079/an-israeli-man-remembers-his-gazan-friend Actions speak louder than words. Fair enough, thanks for the reply! As far as the war goes on then? The beat goes on. Neither side budges. Hamas banks on a sympathy vote to pressure Israel to let them survive. Bibi says the ICC will not stop Hamas, so we have to ourselves. My own feedback is that Hamas oppresses people like Khabul Abu Yahia. And of course Bernstein supports peoples thoughts (his own, in the world, and yours, see you are not alone either) that Israel is the aggressor. My feedback is an appeal for freedom independent of Hamas is action. You are talking about no action to my opinion. Just mine, but you are not on your own. As to your question; no, $40 or $50 billion to rebuild Gaza does not surprise me. Its exactly along lines I expected. Further, would anticipate it not too hard to raise? Gaza a historic city with 3000 years history. A viable port possible connecting the old world to new? Untapped sun on the Mediterranean! Investment no issue if radical militants were not in charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 9 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Fair enough, thanks for the reply! As far as the war goes on then? The beat goes on. Neither side budges. Hamas banks on a sympathy vote to pressure Israel to let them survive. Bibi says the ICC will not stop Hamas, so we have to ourselves. My own feedback is that Hamas oppresses people like Khabul Abu Yahia. And of course Bernstein supports peoples thoughts (his own, in the world, and yours, see you are not alone either) that Israel is the aggressor. My feedback is an appeal for freedom independent of Hamas is action. You are talking about no action to my opinion. Just mine, but you are not on your own. As to your question; no, $40 or $50 billion to rebuild Gaza does not surprise me. Its exactly along lines I expected. Further, would anticipate it not too hard to raise? Gaza a historic city with 3000 years history. A viable port possible connecting the old world to new? Untapped sun on the Mediterranean! Investment no issue if radical militants were not in charge. I didn't say Isreal was the aggressor. I posted about two men, a gentle, kind man, who never hurt anyone. Who, along with his wife and two daughters, is now dead. An ex Isreali soldier who befriended him. They had a shared dream of peace. Until there are more Khalil's and Ariel's, this never ending conflict will never stop. People that treat each other with kindness, with dignity, with compassion. A question for you. I am totally on board with Hamas being described as radical militants. Would you give that same label to Smotrich, Ben Gvir and their ilk ? I would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ilunga said: A question for you. I am totally on board with Hamas being described as radical militants. Would you give that same label to Smotrich, Ben Gvir and their ilk ? Just read backwards. I suggest to people who support Israel? To act more responsibly and within the law. The expectations of the world? Also to be the leader in compromises to a solution. Just like I challenge you? I challenged your nemesis. Many times over the course of this thread. At one point, asked if he and his family could approach their politicians. I believe on that occasion about putting pressure regarding settlements, abuse of Palestinians in security (occupied) zones. Roman was pretty gracious; paraphrasing cuz I do not remember exact wording; he could not offer a commitment? But respected my opinion & listened to it. I have asked about Ben Gvir and this ilk of opinion much earlier. His reply was most Israelis had no desire to occupy or take control of Gaza. Nor was he a fan of Netanyahu. That said, his words reflected bipartisan (my choice of word) unity in a time of war, not accepting threats, presenting strength. More specific as you are asking me; I hate Ben Gvir, Yoav Galant. I want neither opportunistic occupation as per Gvir. Nor excessively heavy handed ''defense'' as per Galant; examples being shoot first policies with rock throwing teen protestors, controversial deaths of reporters or aid workers. Even pre-war; but now including the volume of death including collateral damage in the first months of the war. Stunts like Gvir at the Al Aqsa. Its not that I believe Jewish people should be restricted access to the West Wall; I do not. There are also agreements made a senior minister should not intentionally breach. Galant specifically, has philosophy about Zionist sovereignty that is almost as dangerous as Islamic extremist views. Where I split the difference? Believe Hamas, Hezbollah are more dangerous! They have controls which they have primarily on militancy. Generations of grooming within their society. Networks of corruption, conntrol. Teaching ideologically 'disciplined' behaviours. Which may take a generation to un-groom? Israel has a constitution that disavows those things / Hamas a charter that instills them. Israel a democracy who can vote it's bastards out. Luckily (?); Israel is also wealthy and can shoot down most terrorist rockets. Its defense strength can tip the balance of casualties when no one else gives a sh!t who dies. So I answered your question. This offers segway to a next obvious topic. Why does Hamas start this war Oct 7 it has no hope of winning? Should Palestinians not reject being lead directly in to death and destruction... ((( Bear in mind I advocate Israel offering them a path towards peace! That Islamic Jihad by definition has never advocated peace or coexistence! )))) What responsibility do Palestinians have for buying in to such attacks; alternately also seek peaceful coexistence? Edited October 11 by Canuck Surfer context error re Gvir stunt Al Aqsa 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 Blinded by fear, impotence & corruption? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 2 minutes ago, grover said: IDF tells the “peace keepers” (they do such a good job) to stay in protected spots before firing. A couple guys are in a lookout tower. IMHAO this (so called) peace keeping force is infested with crazies, exactly like that UNWARA. Crazies are like rats over there and need to be exterminated do all the good people (the vast majority) can be free. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 War limits humanity. Suggesting the bombing of Dresden and using the nukes on Japan as war crimes is a luxary that those facing the death of their people has no basis in reality. What is the limit of innocence in war? The bombing campaign in Europe in WW2 was a calculated effort to destroy the German capability to produce weapons. Civilian populations suffered but they were part of that war effort. Hitler was working on a nuke. What if? Before the nukes were used on Japan the Americans had lived thru Saipan, Guam, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. 10's of thousands dead and wounded. Landing on Japan had 100's of thousands at risk. I don't hold the Americans at fault for using that weapon. Crafting a idea that Israel is the aggressor in the ME is a stretch. Israel does not have the luxury of deciding who is for or against them. The vast majority of Arabs living on their borders are against the existance of Israel. Their neighbors are mostly ruled by despots who cloak their depravity with hatred and envy of Israel. Israel is an existential threat to their power and even existance. It is not Israel's responsibility to sort through this mess and make things right. Israel does not have the luxury to turn the other cheek. They turn the other cheek and October 7th would be repeated across all of Israel. How is Israel to have any faith in what their so called allies would do to defend them if they did turn the other cheek. None! In Canada's case we saw what would happen at the Court House in Vancouver. Canada turned the other cheek and was laughed at around the world. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentSam Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 2 hours ago, SilentSam said: Will that be the new reality show? The lost billions of Hezbollah. Who really got the money? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimist Prime Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 5 hours ago, SilentSam said: THis reminds me of a decent enough movie: Three Kings... I wonder if anyone made out with the money before the explosion? hehe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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