Canuck Surfer Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 Noun / Pronoun - Tomato / Tomahto Just call the whole thing off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 Just now, grover said: I agree that I am splitting hairs here, but language speaks volumes. Lets get the proper rhetoric out there, the proper words. Let's not use language that promote war, and lets bring peace to the region. Enough is enough! Lets work backwards? Perhaps not do terrorist attacks, use coercive and violent militant behaviour to win power... If Palestinian people want peace they should resist and reject those using all such tactics. Some argue they have a right to do so because of Israeli abuses? I disagree; believe peace will occur when both parties desist their abuses. It's further plain just not smart because Palestinians Hamas do not have the military power to prevail. Are just contributing to their peoples own ongoing misery. I do agree about language for peace for momentum; see posts in the last pages about Israel adding discussion of peace versus just threats. Action and changing behaviours carries more weight. Words hopefully contribute to changing the thought processes so it all starts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 28 minutes ago, grover said: genocide Ever thought about your choice of words? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 Is this true? Or just an implanted idea which also gets rid of an Iranian General... Not the best video source, but widely reported / speculated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 1 hour ago, grover said: Hamas continues its fight against the israeli oppression, more than a year after israels invasion/genocide began. Are you suggesting Hamas has the best interests of the people of Gaza with what they do? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 1 hour ago, grover said: Well, what was it? 124 governments in the UN apparently. And New Zealand only claims Hamas' Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades as a terrorist organization, and not Hamas itself. Don't misread my claims as support from the international community for Hamas. That's a completely different ballpark, in my view. Bullshit. Utter bullshit. Tell me, what are womens lives like under Hamas? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 5 minutes ago, Alflives said: Are you suggesting Hamas has the best interests of the people of Gaza with what they do? The attempt to normalize Hamas is scary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 5 hours ago, JIAHN said: I think this is a good post......You bring up alot of very good point that I agree on It is true that starting with the Crusades, western civilizations have conquered, invade, robbed, killed, and enslaved Muslims. Mostly in the name of religion. Fast forward to the 21st century, and religion has waned in the west, but money has taken over The Musilim anger is well rooted in history, over millennia and generations But this is different in that Israel was not attacking anyone....albeit, their administration of the area is questionable at best There was peace...............but Hamas, HEZ and Iran, have decided to fight, and that is where we are today The anger is generational and taught, and the Israeli's has done nothing to ease it, but this was a terrorist instigated attack The un-easy peace was broken and that is where we are today............. Fault? There are so many players to blame..........but as you have pointed out most Muslim's are just trying to live I still do not think Israel is hiding behind anyone......unless you mean metaphorically???? It is ugly...I don't like it, and hopefully at some point, real peace will come to the area.....I pray it does Again, Jan, I have stated so many times, this never ending conflict is a circle of hatred that is fueled by acts of violence from both sides. We all accept that Hamas' are the " bad guys ", a terror organisation. People keep claiming Israel are the " good guys ". Good guys don't engage in the same sort of behaviour as the bad guys do. As I have pointed out Israel does engage in behaviour, acts of terror, using Palestinians as human shields, the same acts that Hamas' does. Someone has to break this circle of hatred. People condemn Russia annexing land in Ukraine, yet those same people are silent when it comes to Israel annexing land in the west bank. I used to believe in a two state solution. Now I believe there should be a one state solution. A state where Palestinians and Isrealis live together. Where everyone has equal rights. I am a humanist Jan. The most important part of being a humanist to me is rejecting racism and predjudice. Everyones human rights should be protected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 3 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Again, Jan, I have stated so many times, this never ending conflict is a circle of hatred that is fueled by acts of violence from both sides. We all accept that Hamas' are the " bad guys ", a terror organisation. People keep claiming Israel are the " good guys ". Good guys don't engage in the same sort of behaviour as the bad guys do. As I have pointed out Israel does engage in behaviour, acts of terror, using Palestinians as human shields, the same acts that Hamas' does. Someone has to break this circle of hatred. People condemn Russia annexing land in Ukraine, yet those same people are silent when it comes to Israel annexing land in the west bank. I used to believe in a two state solution. Now I believe there should be a one state solution. A state where Palestinians and Isrealis live together. Where everyone has equal rights. I am a humanist Jan. The most important part of being a humanist to me is rejecting racism and predjudice. Everyones human rights should be protected. You’re right! Hamas are the bad guys. I like to classify them as evil. But bad guys works too. Hopefully soon the IDF has killed all those evil people so the good ones can rise up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 35 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Again, Jan, I have stated so many times, this never ending conflict is a circle of hatred that is fueled by acts of violence from both sides. We all accept that Hamas' are the " bad guys ", a terror organisation. People keep claiming Israel are the " good guys ". Good guys don't engage in the same sort of behaviour as the bad guys do. As I have pointed out Israel does engage in behaviour, acts of terror, using Palestinians as human shields, the same acts that Hamas' does. Someone has to break this circle of hatred. People condemn Russia annexing land in Ukraine, yet those same people are silent when it comes to Israel annexing land in the west bank. I used to believe in a two state solution. Now I believe there should be a one state solution. A state where Palestinians and Isrealis live together. Where everyone has equal rights. I am a humanist Jan. The most important part of being a humanist to me is rejecting racism and predjudice. Everyones human rights should be protected. If the rest of the ME accepted Israels right to exist, we would get to a peaceful solution. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 52 minutes ago, grover said: Yeah, sorry. I guess that should be in quotations, as I am quoting South Africa and its case before the ICJ involving Israel. Hamas's leadership is also due at the ICJ. While I am a believer in Israel's case as a whole in this conflict? I do not duck questions about what I believe Israel has done wrong. Challenge Israel to participate in solutions. Protests and movements like this, as you are mentioning, I believe have had an impact. The level of destruction at the beginning of the war was blasphemous. 5000 people a week were dying. Israel was probably surprised by the level of outrage because it seemed clear they became much more selective, targeted in its choice of battle; some which I still disagreed with. The level of casualties has come down considerably. If you are a Palestinian, or Palestinian supporter? Who wants peace! I have the same suggestion; identify specific ways Palestinians can come to the table to participate in alleviating issues from their own side. Its not good enough just to complain about Israel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 20 minutes ago, Bob Long said: If the rest of the ME accepted Israels right to exist, we would get to a peaceful solution. I agree. If Isreal respected Palestinians basic human rights, that would also contribute to peace in the region. It's a two way street Jim. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 22 minutes ago, Bob Long said: If the rest of the ME accepted Israels right to exist, we would get to a peaceful solution. Its somewhat widely known that Israel is / was close to normalization deals with the Saudi's among others. Qatar, Kuwait i think were also close? Unfortunately, widely suggested is Oct 7 was done to derail this. Hamas wanted their position taken, not one that continues to expand agreement on Israel's right to exist. Egypt, by memory Morocco, Bahrain, UAE & Sudan already have agreements in place. I think its important for Israel to recognize & embrace a specific identity, discuss it absolutely right now, for Palestinians. If they wish for momentum to continue on normalization, acceptance with other Middle Eastern countries. On 10/11/2024 at 2:33 PM, Canuck Surfer said: In the meantime; I continue to propose Israel start making concept offers of peace for Palestinians. For Palestinians; not Hamas, Hezbollah etc. * I would have done exactly the same pre-Oct 7? But thats me. * The opportunity is stronger now. * Cough, the reports I have read, cough, suggest 70% of Hamas capacity is gone, 80% of leadership & 10% of physical capacity of Hezbollah destroyed. * The numbers are debatable, but Hamas has less capacity to rule by force! Lack of leadership makes Hezbollah vulnerable. * A vastly higher % of Palestinians would view better options for themselves? So its a good opportunity to split the people, actual victims, amongst Palestinians from militants. Give us our hostages, and Hamas to lay down arms. We'll help start helping to rebuild & allow the groundwork for your autonomy. Make it public! That puts pressure on Palestinians to disavow Hamas. Its also important to world view. Even just making the offer; it puts pressure on Iran's proxies to have a legitimate stance. Makes proxies criminals in public view when they launch attacks! I know and you know, we know, Iran's proxies are not after peace for Palestinians. They should not be idealized as knights in shining armour for Palestinians. What they really want is control for themselves! Using their extremist version of religious zeal as a secondary appeal for it being holy. Unfortunately anything sounds holy to many in the world; when tens of thousands of women & children are dying. So Israel would be wise to make this appeal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 Just now, Ilunga said: I agree. If Isreal respected Palestinians basic human rights, that would also contribute to peace in the region. It's a two way street Jim. Aren’t there a lot of Palestinian people living in Israel as citizens? IMHAO the road to a lasting peace and prosperity for the tjr Palistinian people comes from eliminating the crazies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 16 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Hamas's leadership is also due at the ICJ. While I am a believer in Israel's case as a whole in this conflict? I do not duck questions about what I believe Israel has done wrong. Challenge Israel to participate in solutions. Protests and movements like this, as you are mentioning, I believe have had an impact. The level of destruction at the beginning of the war was blasphemous. 5000 people a week were dying. Israel was probably surprised by the level of outrage because it seemed clear they became much more selective, targeted in its choice of battle; some which I still disagreed with. The level of casualties has come down considerably. If you are a Palestinian, or Palestinian supporter? Who wants peace! I have the same suggestion; identify specific ways Palestinians can come to the table to participate in alleviating issues from their own side. Its not good enough just to complain about Israel. The Palestine's People Front ! Pfft We're the Peoples Front of Palestine ! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 4 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Pfft Pies at the MCG; yuck! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 7 minutes ago, Alflives said: Aren’t there a lot of Palestinian people living in Israel as citizens? IMHAO the road to a lasting peace and prosperity for the tjr Palistinian people comes from eliminating the crazies. Do you call committing acts of terror on Palestinians' in the west bank respecting Palestinians human rights ? Do you call annexing/stealing their land respecting their rights ? You are against Russia annexing Ukrainian land, why don't you speak up about Isreal annexing Palestinian land ? Let's talk about the treatment of Isreali - Arabs looks like in Israel " Systematic Witch Hunt: What Persecution of Arab Isrealis Looks Like " https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-02/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/systematic-witch-hunt-what-persecution-of-israeli-arabs-looks-like-amid-gaza-war/0000018b-90db-db7e-af9b-fbdb254e0000 https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel There is a lot to unpack in this article, this kinda sums it up " They have the same legal rights as Jewish citizens but many continue to face discrimination and socioeconomic disadvantages " Tell me Alf, what has killing " crazies ", as you describe them, have to do with Jewish terrorism in the West Bank ? Israel continuing to annex Palestinian land ? Isreals treatment of its Arab/Palestinian population ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 2 minutes ago, grover said: I'm sorry you think that I'm trying to normalize Hamas, because that is not my intention. I'm just trying to point out that there are many different perceptions on this conflict, and the fact is, is that everyone seems to think their perception is the correct one. For me to sympathize with Israel in this conflict, though, they should have stuck to the truth from day 1, especially zaka. The fact that Joe Biden, and the German Foreign Minister, Annalena Baerbock reiterated the most appalling lie as fact after seeing firsthand the evidence, just made me question so much more about what actually happened on Oct. 7. The endless lies to gain world sympathy were not required after Oct. 7. Today it seems that these lies were just to secure justification for their destruction and genocide on The Gaza Strip. I haven't tried to normalize Hamas, I have tried to normalize the conflict. Because as long as a "civilized" nation is is trying to wipe out a third (fourth?) world country of animals, peace/ceasefire will not be prioritized. Fortunately (irony here), after over a year of conflict, much of Europe is beginning to wake up to what is actually happening in Gaza, and action is being... discussed. So you’re suggesting the barbaric attack on innocent people on October 7 by Hamas didn’t happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 1 minute ago, Ilunga said: Do you call committing acts of terror on Palestinians' in the west bank respecting Palestinians human rights ? Do you call annexing/stealing their land respecting their rights ? You are against Russia annexing Ukrainian land, why don't you speak up about Isreal annexing Palestinian land ? Let's talk about the treatment of Isreali - Arabs looks like in Israel " Systematic Witch Hunt: What Persecution of Arab Isrealis Looks Like " https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-02/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/systematic-witch-hunt-what-persecution-of-israeli-arabs-looks-like-amid-gaza-war/0000018b-90db-db7e-af9b-fbdb254e0000 https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel There is a lot to unpack in this article, this kinda sums it up " They have the same legal rights as Jewish citizens but many continue to face discrimination and socioeconomic disadvantages " Tell me Alf, what has killing " crazies ", as you describe them, have to do with Jewish terrorism in the West Bank ? Israel continuing to annex Palestinian land ? Isreals treatment of its Arab/Palestinian population ? Not too sure what you’re getting at. Your opinion and my opinion on this whole matter really mean nothing. IMHAO the free world needs to support Israel in killing all the crazies. If you’re okay with crazies controlling countries that’s fine. It’s your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 1 minute ago, Alflives said: Not too sure what you’re getting at. Your opinion and my opinion on this whole matter really mean nothing. IMHAO the free world needs to support Israel in killing all the crazies. If you’re okay with crazies controlling countries that’s fine. It’s your opinion. You are quite willing to give your opinion in regards to the injustice visited upon the Ukrainian people. Same with the Isreali people. Don't the good Palestinians deserve the same treatment. Please stop with that BS about me supporting Hamas' or Hezbollah or the Mullahs. I have constantly condemned them. Until you actually come out and condemn Netanyahu, condemn Smotrich, condemn Ben Gvir, condemn the settlers who steal land off the Palestinians, it's you who actually supports " crazies " running a country in the middle east. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 6 minutes ago, Ilunga said: You are quite willing to give your opinion in regards to the injustice visited upon the Ukrainian people. Same with the Isreali people. Don't the good Palestinians deserve the same treatment. Please stop with that BS about me supporting Hamas' or Hezbollah or the Mullahs. I have constantly condemned them. Until you actually come out and condemn Netanyahu, condemn Smotrich, condemn Ben Gvir, condemn the settlers who steal land off the Palestinians, it's you who actually supports " crazies " running a country in the middle east. My opinion on a hockey chat forum is not changing geopolitics. However we are entitled to those opinions. IMHAO the free world needs to support Israel in their killing of the crazies. Your opinion can differ. That’s the advantage of living in the free world. We can have differing opinions. I won’t throw you off a roof because yours is different than mine and you won’t do that to me. Go to Gaza or any ME country where the crazies control and try to voice an opinion different than the crazies allow. “Can you fly Bobby?” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 1 hour ago, Ilunga said: I agree. If Isreal respected Palestinians basic human rights, that would also contribute to peace in the region. It's a two way street Jim. It is, but who has initiated more invasions? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 41 minutes ago, grover said: I'm sorry you think that I'm trying to normalize Hamas, because that is not my intention. I'm just trying to point out that there are many different perceptions on this conflict, and the fact is, is that everyone seems to think their perception is the correct one. For me to sympathize with Israel in this conflict, though, they should have stuck to the truth from day 1, especially zaka. The fact that Joe Biden, and the German Foreign Minister, Annalena Baerbock reiterated the most appalling lie as fact after seeing firsthand the evidence, just made me question so much more about what actually happened on Oct. 7. The endless lies to gain world sympathy were not required after Oct. 7. Today it seems that these lies were just to secure justification for their destruction and genocide on The Gaza Strip. I haven't tried to normalize Hamas, I have tried to normalize the conflict. Because as long as a "civilized" nation is is trying to wipe out a third (fourth?) world country of animals, peace/ceasefire will not be prioritized. Fortunately (irony here), after over a year of conflict, much of Europe is beginning to wake up to what is actually happening in Gaza, and action is being... discussed. Just don't. You are 100% attempting to make Hamas and Hezbollah seem like normal groups. You aren't fooling anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 9 minutes ago, Alflives said: My opinion on a hockey chat forum is not changing geopolitics. However we are entitled to those opinions. IMHAO the free world needs to support Israel in their killing of the crazies. Your opinion can differ. That’s the advantage of living in the free world. We can have differing opinions. I won’t throw you off a roof because yours is different than mine and you won’t do that to me. Go to Gaza or any ME country where the crazies control and try to voice an opinion different than the crazies allow. “Can you fly Bobby?” Yet you are quite happy to give it in regards to the Ukrainians and the Isrealis. What about the good Palestinians that you state will benefit from Hamas' being eliminated. Don't they deserve your support ? You condemn the Arab/Muslim " crazies " If you are truly against all the " crazies " in the middle east, why don't you condemn the Isreali " crazies " ? Are you suggesting that people get thrown off roofs in Gaza Alf. This is the third or fourth time I have debunked that BS claim. https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-people-thrown-roof-shows-punishment-by-is-not-hamas-2023-12-14/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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