Ilunga Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 7 hours ago, Bob Long said: my thoughts are those things are bad, but don't justify the attempt by Sinwar, Hezbollah or Iran to destabilize Israel and ultimately destroy it. I agree with this Jim. It doesn't matter which "side" commits these acts. All acts of violence should be condemned. All crimes against humanity should be condemned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 Just now, Ilunga said: I agree with this Jim. It doesn't matter which "side" commits these acts. All acts of violence should be condemned. All crimes against humanity should be condemned. Utopian dreams create a dystopian reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 1 minute ago, Alflives said: Muslims murdering other Muslims. What, like this guy " Canada, White nationalist found guilty of murdering four Muslims in truck attack " https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canadian-man-found-guilty-murdering-four-muslims-truck-attack-cbc-news-2023-11-16/ These are hate crimes Alf. These Muslims are killed because of Islamaphobia. You just love being wrong don't you mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 7 minutes ago, Alflives said: Utopian dreams create a dystopian reality. What do you call a person who has one standard for one group, and another standard for another group ? You condemn Hamas' for acts of terror but are fine with Israeli acts of terror ? You condemn Hamas' using Palestinians as human shields, but you are fine with the IDF using Palestinians as human shields ? That's called hypocrisy Alf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 4 minutes ago, Ilunga said: What do you call a person who has one standard for one group, and another standard for another group ? You condemn Hamas' for acts of terror but are fine with Israeli acts of terror ? You condemn Hamas' using Palestinians as human shields, but you are fine with the IDF using Palestinians as human shields ? That's called hypocrisy Alf. Not all beds are as safe as ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 9 minutes ago, Ilunga said: What, like this guy " Canada, White nationalist found guilty of murdering four Muslims in truck attack " https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canadian-man-found-guilty-murdering-four-muslims-truck-attack-cbc-news-2023-11-16/ These are hate crimes Alf. These Muslims are killed because of Islamaphobia. You just love being wrong don't you mate. Muslims don’t murder other Muslims? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 1 minute ago, Alflives said: Muslims don’t murder other Muslims? Just stop it Alf. You are being obtuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 5 minutes ago, Alflives said: Not all beds are as safe as ours. Yes, most of the Palestinians in Gaza don't have beds Alf. It's not good that you support terrorists Alf. It's also not good that you support crimes against humanity. People being used as human shields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 9 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Yes, most of the Palestinians in Gaza don't have beds Alf. It's not good that you support terrorists Alf. It's also not good that you support crimes against humanity. People being used as human shields. Peace is often attained through war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 3 minutes ago, Alflives said: Peace is often attained through war. The acts of terror I have posted about aren't happening in a war zone. They are happening in the West Bank. These are acts of terror are purely designed to kill, injure and drive the Palestinians from their homes/land. Using people as human shields is a war crime Alf. Don't expect to be thought to have any credibility if you condemn Hamas' for using Palestinians as human shields, yet you will not condemn the IDF when they use Palestinians as human shields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabyCakes Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 19 minutes ago, Alflives said: Peace is often attained through war. Barf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 10 minutes ago, BabyCakes said: Barf You spelled “fact” wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 22 hours ago, Ilunga said: This is the third or fourth time I have debunked that BS claim. Sinwar himself strangled Palestinians with his own hands. I believe you have naive sense of belief in some of your sources. The odds there is no truth to stories of throwing people of buildings is small. Completely manufactured? Possible, but doubtful. Regardless, Fatah & Hamas had full civil war at more than one time in history. Story by Reuters who you have quoted as debunking; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-gaza-scene/gaza-fighting-descends-into-new-brutality-idUSL1264188820070612/ Story by Associated Press https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/gaza-foes-tossed-from-buildings/ Story by NBC www.nbcnews,com Hamas seizes Fatah headquarters in Gaza Age restricted, discretion advised; This is the one Reuters says is IS not Hamas btw, not as originally reported? Choose who you want to believe. 2014 Guardian story about summary executions; https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/27/hamas-executed-palestinians-under-cover-gaza-conflict-amnesty It includes accusations that Hamas carried out the summary execution of at least 23 Palestinians and the arrest and torture of dozens of others, including members and supporters of Hamas’s political rivals, Fatah. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 43 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Yes, most of the Palestinians in Gaza don't have beds Alf. It's not good that you support terrorists Alf. It's also not good that you support crimes against humanity. People being used as human shields. Interesting extrapolation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 11 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Sinwar himself strangled Palestinians with his own hands. I believe you have naive sense of belief in some of your sources. The odds there is no truth to stories of throwing people of buildings is small. Completely manufactured? Possible, but doubtful. Regardless, Fatah & Hamas had full civil war at more than one time in history. Story by Reuters who you have quoted as debunking; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-gaza-scene/gaza-fighting-descends-into-new-brutality-idUSL1264188820070612/ Story by Associated Press https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/gaza-foes-tossed-from-buildings/ Story by NBC www.nbcnews,com Hamas seizes Fatah headquarters in Gaza Age restricted, discretion advised; This is the one Reuters says is IS not Hamas btw, not as originally reported? Choose who you want to believe. 2014 Guardian story about summary executions; https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/27/hamas-executed-palestinians-under-cover-gaza-conflict-amnesty It includes accusations that Hamas carried out the summary execution of at least 23 Palestinians and the arrest and torture of dozens of others, including members and supporters of Hamas’s political rivals, Fatah. That was not the article I quoted in regards to fact checking Hamas' throws people off roofs. It was this article https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-people-thrown-roof-shows-punishment-by-is-not-hamas-2023-12-14/ As for trusting my sources Reuters has been around for over 170 years. It has built up a reputation for high factual reporting And having High credibility. It also has a reputation for being one of the least biased news sources. Simply put, Reuters is one of the largest and most trusted news agencies in the world. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reuters/ You have a bit of a nerve mate. Many of the sources you post from have a Low Credibility Rating and medium to low factual reporting. Now where have I stated that Sinwar didn't strangle someone with his bare hands. Where have I stated that Hamas hasn't executed and tortured people ? Where have I stated that Hamas and Fatah haven't fought each other ? I haven't stated these things because I am totally aware that these things have happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 22 minutes ago, Alflives said: Interesting extrapolation. I have asked you to condemn the Jewish acts of terror in the West Bank. You haven't. I have asked you to condemn the IDF using Palestinians as human shields. You haven't. Your comment in reply was " Not all beds are as safe as ours " If you don't condemn acts of terror and wars crimes, then what can I believe ? I can only believe that you support them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabyCakes Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 36 minutes ago, Alflives said: You spelled “fact” wrong. Iraq says hi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 2 minutes ago, Ilunga said: I have asked you to condemn the Jewish acts of terror in the West Bank. You haven't. I have asked you to condemn the IDF using Palestinians as human shields. You haven't. Your comment in reply was " Not all beds are as safe as ours " If you don't condemn acts of terror and wars crimes, then what can I believe ? I can only believe that you support them. A bed has two sides from which to arise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 Just now, Ilunga said: That was not the article I quoted in regards to fact checking Hamas' throws people off roofs. It was this article https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-people-thrown-roof-shows-punishment-by-is-not-hamas-2023-12-14/ As for trusting my sources Reuters has been around for over 170 years. It has built up a reputation for high factual reporting And having High credibility. It also has a reputation for being one of the least biased news sources. Simply put, Reuters is one of the largest and most trusted news agencies in the world. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reuters/ You have a bit of a nerve mate. Many of the sources you post from have a Low Credibility Rating and medium to low factual reporting. Now where have I stated that Sinwar didn't strangle someone with his bare hands. Where have I stated that Hamas hasn't executed and tortured people ? Where have I stated that Hamas and Fatah haven't fought each other ? I haven't stated these things because I am totally aware that these things have happened. I do have nerve? Your sources have truth. Yet are not infinitely correct. As they do not tell all sides of history. There are other truths worth considering. In this case you mentioned debunking something which implied it was the most important truth. I made it plain to see that even your own sources readily acknowledge the brutality of fighting between the PA & Hamas; ergo the 'debunking' was not at all an accurate reflection of reality. These sides were at brutal war with each other. Engaging in the nastiest forms of coercion and murder. I also try to have composure; you have asked to Israel to improve its basic human rights in alternate posts for Palestinian people. Valid! While I agree; wholeheartedly. My own assessment is Palestinians, regardless, have little hope of basic human rights within their own community. The extremists in Israel take advantage of, essentially an uncivil mob in issues like settlement abuse. Should provide leadership, act in the highest standards of justice within occupied territories; not exploit weakness to keep status quo or steal territory. Which I believe happens. Equally; Palestinians will need to take advantage of any break from militants they can get. Civil order has been at the hands of either militants? Or those seeking to come over from the dark side (PLO trying to legitimize as PA aporx surrounding Oslo), but did not have control or mandate for 80 plus years. Palestinians do need some sense of civil order FROM those who still will not recognize a Jewish state. If there is to be a break which gives Palestinians their freedom. It's not just a persecution by Israel issue is my point. Sinwar currently has roughly 50 live & 50 dead Israeli hostages. Is willing to leverage them, plus tens of thousands more Palestinian lives, to stay in power. The means by which he came to power represented below. Is as representative as those who are mad over Israel behaviour in current conflicts. More from 2014 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/22/hamas-executes-suspected-infomers-gaza Hamas has turned its anger over Israel's assassination of three military commanders against alleged collaborators in Gaza, killing 21 people in a little over 24 hours and warning that the "same punishment will be imposed soon on others". The suspected informers – including two women – were killed in three batches in a campaign codenamed "Strangling Necks". Three were killed on Thursday, 11 at a disused police station early on Friday, and another seven shot dead in public outside a mosque in Gaza City shortly after noon prayers. The mosque's imam asked worshippers to inform Hamas security officials about anyone suspected of behaving strangely, or asking about fighters. "We have to protect our mujahideen [fighters] and back them, not let the Zionist occupation [Israel] easily target them as happened in Rafah with commanders," he said. A 2knd group The summary executions in Gaza triggered swift condemnation from Palestinian and international human rights organisations. Raji al-Surani, the director of the Gaza-based Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, said: "We demand the [Palestinian Authority] and the resistance [militant groups] to intervene to stop these extra-judicial executions, no matter what the reasons and the motives are." Pictures showed a group of men, with their heads covered and hands tied behind their backs, kneeling against a wall. Masked Hamas fighters dressed in black and armed with AK47s pushed to them to the ground before shooting them. The suspects were believed to have been arrested before the assassination early on Thursday of three top Hamas military leaders in Rafah and the possible death of military chief Mohammed Deif in an air strike in Gaza City on Tuesday, which killed his wife and two children. The killings were an unambiguous warning to informers. Hamas claimed that a verdict and sentence was handed down by a court, although it is unlikely that the suspects went through a fair and impartial judicial process. A statement issued in the name of "the Palestinian resistance" said that the court's sheikhs ordered the executions of "collaborators who betrayed their religion and sold their people and land for a cheap price, and achieved many missions for the enemy". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said: Story by Reuters who you have quoted as debunking; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-gaza-scene/gaza-fighting-descends-into-new-brutality-idUSL1264188820070612/ Yup, I quoted Reuters also,,, they cannot only be true when you post them? 47 minutes ago, Ilunga said: Simply put, Reuters is one of the largest and most trusted news agencies in the world. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reuters/ You have a bit of a nerve mate. Many of the sources you post from have a Low Credibility Rating and medium to low factual reporting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 3 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: I do have nerve? Your sources have truth. Yet are not infinitely correct. As they do not tell all sides of history. There are other truths worth considering. In this case you mentioned debunking something which implied it was the most important truth. I made it plain to see that even your own sources readily acknowledge the brutality of fighting between the PA & Hamas; ergo the 'debunking' was not at all an accurate reflection of reality. These sides were at brutal war with each other. Engaging in the nastiest forms of coercion and murder. I also try to have composure; you have asked to Israel to improve its basic human rights in alternate posts for Palestinian people. Valid! While I agree; wholeheartedly. My own assessment is Palestinians, regardless, have little hope of basic human rights within their own community. The extremists in Israel take advantage of, essentially an uncivil mob in issues like settlement abuse. Should provide leadership, act in the highest standards of justice within occupied territories; not exploit weakness to keep status quo or steal territory. Which I believe happens. Equally; Palestinians will need to take advantage of any break from militants they can get. Civil order has been at the hands of either militants? Or those seeking to come over from the dark side (PLO trying to legitimize as PA aporx surrounding Oslo), but did not have control or mandate for 80 plus years. Palestinians do need some sense of civil order FROM those who still will not recognize a Jewish state. If there is to be a break which gives Palestinians their freedom. It's not just a persecution by Israel issue is my point. Sinwar currently has roughly 50 live & 50 dead Israeli hostages. Is willing to leverage them, plus tens of thousands more Palestinian lives, to stay in power. The means by which he came to power represented below. Is as representative as those who are mad over Israel behaviour in current conflicts. More from 2014 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/22/hamas-executes-suspected-infomers-gaza Hamas has turned its anger over Israel's assassination of three military commanders against alleged collaborators in Gaza, killing 21 people in a little over 24 hours and warning that the "same punishment will be imposed soon on others". The suspected informers – including two women – were killed in three batches in a campaign codenamed "Strangling Necks". Three were killed on Thursday, 11 at a disused police station early on Friday, and another seven shot dead in public outside a mosque in Gaza City shortly after noon prayers. The mosque's imam asked worshippers to inform Hamas security officials about anyone suspected of behaving strangely, or asking about fighters. "We have to protect our mujahideen [fighters] and back them, not let the Zionist occupation [Israel] easily target them as happened in Rafah with commanders," he said. A 2knd group The summary executions in Gaza triggered swift condemnation from Palestinian and international human rights organisations. Raji al-Surani, the director of the Gaza-based Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, said: "We demand the [Palestinian Authority] and the resistance [militant groups] to intervene to stop these extra-judicial executions, no matter what the reasons and the motives are." Pictures showed a group of men, with their heads covered and hands tied behind their backs, kneeling against a wall. Masked Hamas fighters dressed in black and armed with AK47s pushed to them to the ground before shooting them. The suspects were believed to have been arrested before the assassination early on Thursday of three top Hamas military leaders in Rafah and the possible death of military chief Mohammed Deif in an air strike in Gaza City on Tuesday, which killed his wife and two children. The killings were an unambiguous warning to informers. Hamas claimed that a verdict and sentence was handed down by a court, although it is unlikely that the suspects went through a fair and impartial judicial process. A statement issued in the name of "the Palestinian resistance" said that the court's sheikhs ordered the executions of "collaborators who betrayed their religion and sold their people and land for a cheap price, and achieved many missions for the enemy". I honestly don't know how many times I have to say I don't want Hamas' as leaders of the Palestinian people, in any form. Not only have they not helped the Palestinian people, they have actually hurt, not only their chances of a better future, also hurting them directly as well. What you are describing is people at their worst. And this is why we label Hamas' as the bad guys. Are the Isrealis " good guys " when they detain Palestinians with no charges ? They rape, torture and abuse prisoners in their " care " https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-sexual-abuse-palestinian-prisoners-rcna165811 Face it mate, there are bad guys on both sides of this conflict. As for both sides, most news articles focus on the story that article is about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 2 hours ago, Ilunga said: I agree with this Jim. It doesn't matter which "side" commits these acts. All acts of violence should be condemned. All crimes against humanity should be condemned. Hard to disagree with that. I tend to try to look at where real gains can made, and try not to get bogged down in all the details. I don't mean to diminish Palestinians history or suffering with that comment. It's just you can discuss that detail forever and never focus on a real solution. That's why right now I want to see Hamas, Hezbollah and Irans military diminished as much as possible. As long as these have real power nothing will change for Palestine, imo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Yup, I quoted Reuters also,,, they cannot only be true when you post them? Where did I say I didn't trust the Reuters article you posted ? You post videos from Turkish sources that have low factual reporting and low Credibility. Also The Guardian, which I used to like until I found out this https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/ Numerous failed fact checks Al Jazeera https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/al-jazeera/ Failed fact checks Every single source that is posted in this thread I check in this manner. This is why I use sources that are vetted by Media Bias, as being High for factual reporting And have High credibility. Every single source I have used has been vetted like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilunga Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 7 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Hard to disagree with that. I tend to try to look at where real gains can made, and try not to get bogged down in all the details. I don't mean to diminish Palestinians history or suffering with that comment. It's just you can discuss that detail forever and never focus on a real solution. That's why right now I want to see Hamas, Hezbollah and Irans military diminished as much as possible. As long as these have real power nothing will change for Palestine, imo. I would love to see, Hamas', Hezbollah and the Mullahs just disappear off the face of the earth. Firstly their people would be better off. The Isrealis would be better off. The middle east would be better of. And the world would be a better place without them. It's the sheer amount of human suffering that is upsetting me. We have a Lebanese family in our town that runs a Pizza and Kebab shop. They have relos in southern Lebanon who have gone missing. They are sick with worry for them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 12 minutes ago, Ilunga said: You post videos from Turkish sources that have low factual reporting and low Credibility. I also post video's / stories from Lebanese, Syrian, British, a couple of Iranian, German & Czech sources. Australian, including the crappy SKY news. Fox re the right in the US, NBC Middle Left. Al JaZeera even though its a Palestinian friendly source. CBN & TBN, other notably Israeli focussed sites. By the way, Al Jazeera have some excellent articles, even where they also post many just to stir up their own local base in the Middle East. All sources cater to their markets. Often, even usually with information not reflecting my own view in totality. Specifically because there is still something to be learned. And because I see my own interest in this conflict as ''how to negotiate, our, way out?'' So my own opinion is one thing. The summary view of sources I post is then recognizing points either side have & perhaps could bend / give / take towards solutions in this conflict. I have spent time debating with yourself for 3 or 5 days? Also posting some solutions I Believe Israel should put on the table. Next few days I am going to concentrate on ideas for Palestinians to offer. Get your knuckle dusters out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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