Hamas attacking Israel

[StrayDog]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

You have to make it a personal attack.

I have never claimed to be righteous, that's a label people like you give me to discredit me.

Rather than actually dealing with the topic of the post.

 

If I am righteous for pointing out that Isrealis commit terror acts in the west Bank, and the IDF use Palestinians as human shields, then you are righteous if you claim the same things about Hamas'. 

 

I had the courage to admit I was wrong.

Have I ever claimed to be perfect ?

No I haven't.

 

I asked you if you had the courage to admit that Isrealis commit acts of terror in the west bank and use Palestinians as human shields. 

 

Going by your answer you obviously don't.

 

So yes, your post and the follow up is all about a " gotcha " moment.

You think that's more important that acts of terror and wars crimes.

 

 

 

 

Nope. Still not gonna take the bait. 

[Ilunga]

10 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

Nope. Still not gonna take the bait. 

 

So you have posted three times and none of your posts have had anything to do with the topic of the thread. 

 

Nice to know you think so much of me.

I must be in your head.

[Taxi]

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

So that's how you rationalise the fact the the IDF attacked and killed UN peacekeepers.

 

An Irish peacekeeper was killed and another injured in an attack by Hezbollah fighters.

 

Both these sets of killings are crimes.

 

All they have accomplished is in the region is create human shields ?

 

More misinformation from you taxi.

 

It is the primary economic driver in southern Lebanon.

It provides a boost to the economy by buying supplies. 

It provides computers for classrooms, builds soccer's fields.

They are far more than just a military presence in a country that is economically devastated.

 

 

https://www.npr.org/2024/10/11/nx-s1-5150044/un-peacekeepers-lebanon-israel-united-nations

 

 

Firstly the IDF didn't attack the UN. They were caught in the crossfire. 

 

It's almost a certainty that in a large scale war, that will happen. It's not a rationalization. It's a consequence. 

 

UNIFIL had 10,000 troops and a budget of a half a billion dollars. Their main role was supposed to be helping the Lebanese army keep unauthorized groups, like Hezbollah, from having arms in the area to avoid conflict. Hezbollah became the most well and non government group in the world with hundreds of thousands of rockets in the area. Reports are that Hezbollah was also planning a large scale incursion into Israel, that it would have launched from the area that UNIFIL was supposed to be demilitarizing.

 

Iran is spending billions to finance Hezbollah. Meanwhile tens of millions of people in the area are living in poverty. 

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

22 minutes ago, Taxi said:

Firstly the IDF didn't attack the UN. They were caught in the crossfire. 

 

It's almost a certainty that in a large scale war, that will happen. It's not a rationalization. It's a consequence. 

 

UNIFIL had 10,000 troops and a budget of a half a billion dollars. Their main role was supposed to be helping the Lebanese army keep unauthorized groups, like Hezbollah, from having arms in the area to avoid conflict. Hezbollah became the most well and non government group in the world with hundreds of thousands of rockets in the area. Reports are that Hezbollah was also planning a large scale incursion into Israel, that it would have launched from the area that UNIFIL was supposed to be demilitarizing.

 

Iran is spending billions to finance Hezbollah. Meanwhile tens of millions of people in the area are living in poverty. 

 

 

 

 

 

So, in your world killing UN soldiers isn't attacking them.

 

Just like killing those aid workers wasn't attacking them.

 

Just killing a record amount of Journalists in Gaza isn't attacking them.

 

 

You didn't even bother reading the article I posted

 

Again, more misinformation.

 

UNIFIL doesn't  have ten thousand troops in Lebanon.

They have 10,000 personnel in Lebanon.

The majority of them are troops, but not all of them. 

 

Their specific mandate was to confirm the withdrawal of Isreali forces, restore peace and security in the border region and assist the Lebanese goverment in reestablishing control in the southern part of the country. 

 

So they managed to fulfil the first part of their mandate, partly fulfil the second part.

And for sure they haven't been fully able to help the government regain control of the southern part of Lebanon, but this can be attributed to the fact that Lebanon is basically a failed state.

 

Tell me, what does Iran's support of Hezbollah have to do with Isreal killing UNIFIL peacekeepers ?

You thought you would just throw that in there to deflect from the fact that Isreal killed UNIFIL soldiers.

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

Standing together

Israelis and Palestinians pursuing peace 

 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Same information provided earlier; much better presentation with a lot more detail as to what was found.

 

Without outlets being the first to try and suggest they had access @grover. These tunnels exist. Not that they exonerate Israel for attacks which impacted UN workers?

 

Yet are clearly a factor in the conflict.  Remains my key point & why I added it to reports I posted. Hezbollah has been structuring attack plans and assets for years.

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Here is an Al Jazeera post worth watching. 

 

Who won't be telling people why Israel targeted this area? I doubt the veracity that this family (of ten) was killed is untrue. Maybe only 8 died, the attack clearly happened! I previously posted, I believe the Telegraph (?) reporting this same strike? This very tragic result of the war is also clearly a factor in the conflict...

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Canuck Surfer]

CanWest Global was founded by Izzy Asper in my hometown. One of the largest Jewish philanthropists in the world till his death in 2003?

 

Are they wrong for quoting, wondering why this 'Crazie' as @Alflives calls it, who says ''Long Live Oct 7!"  At the Vancouver Art Gallery in Vancouver in April.   

 

Has not been convicted?

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

The debate; is it deliberate attacks on peacekeepers?

 

 

[Boudrias]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

CanWest Global was founded by Izzy Asper in my hometown. One of the largest Jewish philanthropists in the world till his death in 2003?

 

Are they wrong for quoting, wondering why this 'Crazie' as @Alflives calls it, who says ''Long Live Oct 7!"  At the Vancouver Art Gallery in Vancouver in April.   

 

Has not been convicted?

 

 

Canada is soft on terrorists plain and simple. 

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

CanWest Global was founded by Izzy Asper in my hometown. One of the largest Jewish philanthropists in the world till his death in 2003?

 

Are they wrong for quoting, wondering why this 'Crazie' as @Alflives calls it, who says ''Long Live Oct 7!"  At the Vancouver Art Gallery in Vancouver in April.   

 

Has not been convicted?

 

 

This crazy person needs to be removed from our society. Her words of hatred are a cancer that needs to be cut out. Prison is the best place for her and no talking to the outside world. 
Can the ME countries where this crazy hatred is so entrenched be healed? 

[StrayDog]

9 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

So you have posted three times and none of your posts have had anything to do with the topic of the thread. 

 

Nice to know you think so much of me.

I must be in your head.

No, just constantly on my screen. Usually accusing someone else of misinformation or supporting horrific acts because they don't agree with you. 

But to bring it back on topic: as long as Hamas terrorists are holding hostages, then any deaths and injuries that have occurred since Oct 7 are squarely on the shoulders of Hamas and their supporters.

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

No, just constantly on my screen. Usually accusing someone else of misinformation or supporting horrific acts because they don't agree with you. 

But to bring it back on topic: as long as Hamas terrorists are holding hostages, then any deaths and injuries that have occurred since Oct 7 are squarely on the shoulders of Hamas and their supporters.

 

Quote me where I have supported horrific acts.

 

Quote me or STFU.

 

 

 

And what do Hamas' holding hostages in Gaza have to do with Isrealis killing and injuring Palestinians in the West Bank. 

 

Does Hamas' holding hostages give Israel the right to commit war crimes of their own, use Palestinians as human shields ? 

 

And if you don't like me on your screen don't read my posts.

 

[Alflives]

15 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Quote me where I have supported horrific acts.

 

Quote me or STFU.

 

 

 

And what do Hamas' holding hostages in Gaza have to do with Isrealis killing and injuring Palestinians in the West Bank. 

 

Does Hamas' holding hostages give Israel the right to commit war crimes of their own, use Palestinians as human shields ? 

 

And if you don't like me on your screen don't read my posts.

 

.

[StrayDog]

56 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Quote me where I have supported horrific acts.

 

Quote me or STFU.

 

 

 

And what do Hamas' holding hostages in Gaza have to do with Isrealis killing and injuring Palestinians in the West Bank. 

 

Does Hamas' holding hostages give Israel the right to commit war crimes of their own, use Palestinians as human shields ? 

 

And if you don't like me on your screen don't read my posts.

 

Sure. How about you quote me saying you support horrific acts. I said you accuse people of supporting horrific acts when they don't agree with you. 

Hamas taking hostages is what led to Israel's actions everywhere else - as well as Houthi and Hezbollah actions - in the past year. Both sides have committed horrendous acts that could all have been prevented if Hamas had not taken (and continue to hold) hostages.

As for the rest, perhaps you're right. I'll stop reading your posts. Too bad, too, because there were times I agreed with what you were posting. But hey, stay angry (and don't try to tell anyone that "STFU" was not used in anger....) and see where that gets you.

 

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

Sure. How about you quote me saying you support horrific acts. I said you accuse people of supporting horrific acts when they don't agree with you. 

Hamas taking hostages is what led to Israel's actions everywhere else - as well as Houthi and Hezbollah actions - in the past year. Both sides have committed horrendous acts that could all have been prevented if Hamas had not taken (and continue to hold) hostages.

As for the rest, perhaps you're right. I'll stop reading your posts. Too bad, too, because there were times I agreed with what you were posting. But hey, stay angry (and don't try to tell anyone that "STFU" was not used in anger....) and see where that gets you.

 

 

You must have missed the countless times I have stated that this never ending conflict is fueled by acts of violence/ hatred by both sides. 

 

 

What has Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis actions have to do with Isreals actions in the west bank ? 

You are against Russia annexing/stealing land in Ukraine, well Isreal has been annexing/stealing land and terrorising Palestinians in the west bank for decades.

This is the Jewish terrorism that the head of Shin Bet is talking about.

 

So because Hamas' commits war crimes/crimes against humanity, in Gaza and the October 7 attack, that gives Isreal the right  to do the same thing ?

 

Where did I accuse you of supporting horrific acts ?

I stated you didn't condemn them.

Not condemning something is different than supporting it, or do I have to spell it out for you. 

My point was that we all have condemned Hamas' for using the Palestinians as human shields, no one has condemned the Isrealis for doing the same thing. 

 

 

And no, I am not angry at you. 

I am very upset about something in my personal life, and my patience levels aren't what they usually are. 

 

[Taxi]

11 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

So, in your world killing UN soldiers isn't attacking them.

 

Just like killing those aid workers wasn't attacking them.

 

Just killing a record amount of Journalists in Gaza isn't attacking them.

 

 

You didn't even bother reading the article I posted

 

Again, more misinformation.

 

UNIFIL doesn't  have ten thousand troops in Lebanon.

They have 10,000 personnel in Lebanon.

The majority of them are troops, but not all of them. 

 

Their specific mandate was to confirm the withdrawal of Isreali forces, restore peace and security in the border region and assist the Lebanese goverment in reestablishing control in the southern part of the country. 

 

So they managed to fulfil the first part of their mandate, partly fulfil the second part.

And for sure they haven't been fully able to help the government regain control of the southern part of Lebanon, but this can be attributed to the fact that Lebanon is basically a failed state.

 

Tell me, what does Iran's support of Hezbollah have to do with Isreal killing UNIFIL peacekeepers ?

You thought you would just throw that in there to deflect from the fact that Isreal killed UNIFIL soldiers.

 

 

 

 

 

Those aren't my words at all. 

 

Firstly, no UN soldiers were killed, only 2 wounded. We don't know the extent of those wounds. Secondly, attacking means you are purposely going after that target. That's not what happened. It's a war, where Hezbollah is hiding amongst civilians, not wearing uniforms, etc.. In a best case scenario, war is brutal. When you're fighting an "army" that doesn't play by the rules, it gets more brutal. And yes, people will inevitably get caught in the cross-fire. 

 

Iran supporting Hezbollah fighters, to fight amongst UNIFIL soldiers, is directly related to putting UNIFIL soldiers in harm's way. They are effectively using UNIFIL as humans shields, and Iran is paying the bills and supplying the weapons. How do you not see that?

 

And you admit that UNIFIL is not fulfilling their mandate, despite receiving a half a billion dollars year to do so?

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

20 hours ago, Taxi said:

The UN was supposed to enforce a military free zone in southern Lebanon for the last 18 years. They stood back and let Iran arm Hezbollah with hundreds of thousands of rockets. All they UN has accomplished in the region is creating a system of human shields for Hezbollah.

At this juncture I agree, however, they have a valuable job to do when there is not a literal war raging around them. Now is the time to move out of harms way, as it is crystal clear Harm is coming through southern Lebanon in response to the Harm that has been stockpiled there and for the last year fired into Israel from there. Unifil may not have done its job effectively for a long time now, but that is a discussion for once the UN troops are moved out to safety. 

[StrayDog]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

You must have missed the countless times I have stated that this never ending conflict is fueled by acts of violence/ hatred by both sides. 

 

 

What has Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis actions have to do with Isreals actions in the west bank ? 

You are against Russia annexing/stealing land in Ukraine, well Isreal has been annexing/stealing land and terrorising Palestinians in the west bank for decades.

This is the Jewish terrorism that the head of Shin Bet is talking about.

 

So because Hamas' commits war crimes/crimes against humanity, in Gaza and the October 7 attack, that gives Isreal the right  to do the same thing ?

 

Where did I accuse you of supporting horrific acts ?

I stated you didn't condemn them.

Not condemning something is different than supporting it, or do I have to spell it out for you. 

My point was that we all have condemned Hamas' for using the Palestinians as human shields, no one has condemned the Isrealis for doing the same thing. 

 

 

And no, I am not angry at you. 

I am very upset about something in my personal life, and my patience levels aren't what they usually are. 

 

If there is something bothering you in your personal life that is affecting how you post, then I would suggest not posting until you've gone past it. 

As for the rest of your post, I'll stick to your earlier advice and not read or reply to it, since it is clearly affected by what's happening in your personal life.

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Ilunga]

11 hours ago, StrayDog said:

If there is something bothering you in your personal life that is affecting how you post, then I would suggest not posting until you've gone past it. 

As for the rest of your post, I'll stick to your earlier advice and not read or reply to it, since it is clearly affected by what's happening in your personal life.

 

First off, thanks for the reaction to my post.

It illustrates that you have compassion and empathy for others, even a person you are arguing with. 

 

I am sorry I snapped at you.

I regretted not long afterwards, it's not usually in my nature to loose my cool. 

 

Posting on this forum, and following the fortunes of my fantasy teams is a good distraction from what is going on. 

I have a few good friends who I interact with, and there are some really good people.

 

I let a person whose contribution to this thread is to denigrate others get to me.

Then you piled on as well 

 

As I have stated, I have a - distant - connection to this topic.

This is why, since my father told me about this, that I have researched and followed this conflict for the the better part of the last 50 years.

An Israeli/Jewish terror group, tried to kill a distant family  relative, twice.

While I don't know, or care, what blood flows through my veins, I seem to have the Scottish mentality, I might forgive but I never forget.  

 

It is for this reason that I really dislike those who call out Hamas' for their terror acts, but aren't willing to do the same with Israel. 

Apart from the obvious reason.

The state of Isreal was built upon acts of terrorism.

As I have detailed, Jewish terror groups  terrorised Jews who were living in Palestine before the state of Israel was formed. 

 

As another posted noted, we have a rules based world order.

These rules should be applied to everyone without fear or favour. 

 

[Ilunga]

12 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

Those aren't my words at all. 

 

Firstly, no UN soldiers were killed, only 2 wounded. We don't know the extent of those wounds. Secondly, attacking means you are purposely going after that target. That's not what happened. It's a war, where Hezbollah is hiding amongst civilians, not wearing uniforms, etc.. In a best case scenario, war is brutal. When you're fighting an "army" that doesn't play by the rules, it gets more brutal. And yes, people will inevitably get caught in the cross-fire. 

 

Iran supporting Hezbollah fighters, to fight amongst UNIFIL soldiers, is directly related to putting UNIFIL soldiers in harm's way. They are effectively using UNIFIL as humans shields, and Iran is paying the bills and supplying the weapons. How do you not see that?

 

And you admit that UNIFIL is not fulfilling their mandate, despite receiving a half a billion dollars year to do so?

 

 

 

We are both wrong.

5 UNIFIL peacekeepers have been injured.

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce9j74z7xvmo

 

Isreal fired directly upon UNIFIL positions.

That's not being caught in the crossfire.

 

Isreali tanks forced their way into a UNIFIL compound and initially refused demands to leave.

These actions aren't accidents.

 

The world is getting tired of the criminal actions the IDF has, and is still committing.

 

Good news today, the US will make cuts to  Military aide to Isreal if they don't boost humanitarian aid access to Gaza. 

 

It's good to see, that albeit slowly, Isreal is losing support from the rest of the world. 

[Canuck Surfer]

Al Jazeera even noting targets are weapons sites.  

 

Edit more points from high quality report;

Lebanon Prime Minister received assurances from US Israel would not hit Beirut; this was not honored / taken on by Israel who hit the weapon site.

Lebanon Prime Minister wants ceasefire based on UN 1701 terms from 2006 (weapons free zone 20KM North of Israeli border...)

Hezbollah wants ceasefire; offering threats if they don't get it!

 

CS opinion; 

Lebanon PM powerless against Hezbollah unfortunately. Hezbollah should be offering 1701 immediately, not threats. 

Maybe AlJazeera want their West Bank outlet back, suddenly not so politically biased in their reports?  This one anyway...

 

 

Edited October 16 by Canuck Surfer

[Canuck Surfer]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

The world is getting tired of the criminal actions the IDF has, and is still committing.

 

The world is disappointed in Israel. 

 

Amongst reasons; reports that Israel is intentionally attacking UN peacekeepers.  Trust me, if this was true, they would be dead! In this case, Israel asked the UN to step aside. As the UN, perhaps not harbouring, but clearly either indifferent or ignorant to the massive weapons build up. Quote / Unquote, and factually in the UN safe zone where Hezbollah breached agreements. Launched thousands of attacks.  The world has also under reported the ten thousand plus attacks, many believing it is a unilateral escalation by Israel.  

 

So?

 

With the UN safe zone 1701 agreement in place; North of Israeli border 20KM (summarized). The UN was unsuccessful managing & monitoring this agreement extensively broken by Hezbollah. Why does Israel not have the right to clear the safe zone?