Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

9 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Palestinians were really sold out to King Abdullah?

 

Worth mentioning; King Abdullah the 1st was assassinated not by a Jew! Assassinated by a Palestinian Nationalist at the now infamous Al Aqsa Mosque 1951.

 

At that time the 'West Bank' had been annexed by Jordan in 1950. Who saw 'Palestine' as holy land he should control.  

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

This is not all new in the scope of Jewish / Muslim history. Relatively inconsequential to the scope & issue of, I call it, tenderizing of other cultures. Really historical ethnic cleansing always existed. That video mentioned Pogroms to dispose of Jews in Jerusalem in the first 50 years of Ottoman rule over 500 years ago. Also in its last 50 years, before the British mandate. That is not peace. Nor is ongoing conflict where all cultures, religions & people are unwelcome except that of the local king or warlord.

 

That said Arabic Palestinians were not independently addressed with ''their own'' country in partition plans. Two or three reasons? Point one, they insisted on complete control of the region! Had fought with Jews almost the entire thirty years of the British Mandate. You call Jewish actions at that time that of terrorism. Both sides were militant. Both sides flooded the region when the Ottomans left. In terms of Jews, Babylonian & Egyptian, but also European joined Jews who had never been completely expelled from Galilee. A NET RESULT? Point two other groups including specifically the Hashemites who participated in expelling of Ottomans with Palestinian Arabs were granted a territory. Jordan complete with 70% Palestinian population & a Hashemite minority even then.  I have always debated Jordan stole a Palestinian ''country'' more than Israel! Hashemites are a tribe from Northern S Arabia. Kingdoms or nations for Saudi Arabia, Iraq & Syria also all eventuated as results of support expelling Ottomans. Did that not satisfy agreements made over a cup of, Orange Pico, tea? All those groups plus Egypt formed the Arab League.

 

Were the Palestinians not really sold out to King Abdullah? Partly, being objectively fair...

 

Not that Sykes Picot was a legal agreement regardless! Nor the Balfour Agreement for that matter? You suggest more than me, your choice of words, the law matters? Jews even predating either agreement had standing of consideration for participation. As did the various Arabic tribes above. See the next point.

 

Point three is the Arab League tried to create 'Palestine' in spite of agreements between the British & Zionists. Or UN mandates? Attacking in 1948 to again expel all Jews. Just as groups like the Ottomans had! Local Muslim tribes before them had been doing for 700 years before Turks arrived. We don't care which Arab group, as long as an Arab or Muslim group wins the 1948 war?  But they lost that war & Israel survived.

 

In the end? This remains 2000 plus year old conflict you argue is illegal because of the Poms in 1917?

 

 

You take certain parts of my post and try and rewrite history.

 

Post some actual links to a historian that states there has been a 2000 year conflict in the middle east. 

That under the Ottoman Empire there was a constant conflict between Muslim's, Christians, Jews and other minorities.

Even major periods of conflict similar to what was happening in Europe at the time. 

You can't, because that was not the case.

 

What I have stated, is what many historian state, actual history.

That up until the western powers betrayed their supposed allies, the Arabs, they tried to divide the middle east up between themselves.

It was a relatively peaceful place after the Crusades. 

 

And most of your post about what was was happening in Palestine due to the British backs up my assertion.

 

What right did they, a country thousands of miles away, have to divide up the middle east ?

What right did they have to give away land that was not theirs to someone else ?

 

So according to you, a deal made by people thousands of miles away, trumps the right of people actually living there.

[Optimist Prime]

10 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

So according to you, a deal made by people thousands of miles away, trumps the right of people actually living there.

According to Australia too. something something glass houses something stones

 

https://humanrights.gov.au/about/news/speeches/emrip-australia-has-not-signed-federal-treaty-indigenous-peoples#:~:text=Australia is one of the,been negotiated with First Nations.

 

Australia is one of the only Commonwealth countries that has not signed a federal treaty or agreement with Indigenous peoples. As such, state institutions and laws, including the national Constitution, have developed without ever having been negotiated with First Nations. 

[Canuck Surfer]

16 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

So according to you, a deal made by people thousands of miles away, trumps the right of people actually living there.

 

Culturally Muslims have been expelling people, usually in favour of their own tribe for a thousand years, more.

 

This is why they are dominant cultures there. Thats what I am saying.

 

 

Remember; Palestinians rejected a state in 1948. Many times since because they wanted it to be their own.  But make no mistake; the Saudis & Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians all would have taken claim of the territory if they could. Did have parts of it, did not seed it to Palestinians. Only claim its Palestinian now that they have lost anyway. If not fighting the Jews, they would be fighting each other. Have been fighting each other, prolifically. Western interference has tipped balances, and in different ways at different times in the last hundred years. Your assertion this was always a peaceful region is just not true.

 

Or fight the British; or fight whomever had controls.

 

I am not rewriting history. Just not interpreting it where Palestinian Arabs are the only group indigenous to the region; ergo the only group with rights to any claim!

Edited Tuesday at 01:57 AM by Canuck Surfer

[Canuck Surfer]

20 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

You can't, because that was not the case.

We've been through this before.

 

Jews controlled the region for about the same amount of time as Muslim cultures over 3000 years. The latter just more recently.

 

There are has never NOT been conflict. Arabic Muslims had the area before Turkic Ottomans. Google the Crusades.  Google Persian Empires, The Roman Empire.

 

Thats just being daft. Who did not own the territory at one point?

 

 

[SilentSam]

Brilliant move !!!

 

 

 

 

[Optimist Prime]

37 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

We've been through this before.

 

Jews controlled the region for about the same amount of time as Muslim cultures over 3000 years. The latter just more recently.

 

There are has never NOT been conflict. Arabic Muslims had the area before Turkic Ottomans. Google the Crusades.  Google Persian Empires, The Roman Empire.

 

Thats just being daft. Who did not own the territory at one point?

 

 

one thing there has never been in the last 500 years at least, so far as I am aware, is a muslim nation called Palestine.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

According to Australia too. something something glass houses something stones

 

https://humanrights.gov.au/about/news/speeches/emrip-australia-has-not-signed-federal-treaty-indigenous-peoples#:~:text=Australia is one of the,been negotiated with First Nations.

 

Australia is one of the only Commonwealth countries that has not signed a federal treaty or agreement with Indigenous peoples. As such, state institutions and laws, including the national Constitution, have developed without ever having been negotiated with First Nations. 

 

I voted yes in the referendum on a voice to Parliament. 

I have actually written to several of the politicians who have represented me in parliament over the decades expressing my wish for a treaty.

Both at state, and federal level.

 

I actually got my ex to email one a link to this song.

 

 

So, as an individual, I have done my best to make my voice heard on this subject. 

 

 

 

So even though the society I live in, doesn't live up to my wishes or expectations, that does not stop me having the right to comment on others.

 

And what does any of this have to do with the current conversation ?

 

If you believe, which I don't, that just because the Jewish people controlled the land nearly two thousand years ago, that gives them the right to a nation now, then I suggest you are living in a glass house.

That you should give back your land to the people, indigenous Canadians,who were there 10-15,000 years before European settlement.

 

And again this does not mean I don't believe in an Isreali state.

 

Just using your logic.

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Culturally Muslims have been expelling people, usually in favour of their own tribe for a thousand years, more.

 

This is why they are dominant cultures there. Thats what I am saying.

 

 

Remember; Palestinians rejected a state in 1948. Many times since because they wanted it to be their own.  But make no mistake; the Saudis & Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians all would have taken claim of the territory if they could. Did have parts of it, did not seed it to Palestinians. Only claim its Palestinian now that they have lost anyway. If not fighting the Jews, they would be fighting each other. Have been fighting each other, prolifically. Western interference has tipped balances, and in different ways at different times in the last hundred years. Your assertion this was always a peaceful region is just not true.

 

Or fight the British; or fight whomever had controls.

 

I am not rewriting history. Just not interpreting it where Palestinian Arabs are the only group indigenous to the region; ergo the only group with rights to any claim!

 

For starters, where did I state that they haven't been fighting each other in the middle east during the last 100 years ?

I didn't.

 

I stated, several times, that up until the fall of the Ottoman Empire WW1, what is now known as the middle east was a relatively peaceful place.

Where people of different ethnicities lived together generally at peace with each other. 

I provided evidence to back this up.

It is commonly known history.

 

If you want to provide links to information that contradicts this, please feel free, otherwise please admit that what I am stating is true.

 

I stated the shit really started happening after WW1.

You can claim this might have happened without western interventionism,  but that is irrelevant, western powers have continually fucked with countries in the middle east right up until the illegal invasion of Iraq, which destabilized virtually the entire region.

 

And where did I ever state that Palestinian are the only people that have rights to any claim ?

I didn't.

 

The fact of the matter is they have fuck all rights. 

The British did a deal with the Arabs, fucked them over.

Then tried to divide up the middle east with the French.

And eventually gave a chunk of what was known as Palestine to the Jewish people out of guilt for centuries of persecution in Europe and the Holocaust.

[Ilunga]

51 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

one thing there has never been in the last 500 years at least, so far as I am aware, is a muslim nation called Palestine.

 

And what does this have to do with the rights of the Arab population that has lived in Palestine/Isreal/the Levant for centuries ?

 

A lot longer than your forebears have lived in Canada.

And a lot longer than mine have lived in Australia. 

 

I want peaceful coexistence.

Going by a post you made a few days ago, you believe that the Palestinians don't have any rights whatsoever in regards to their land.

[Optimist Prime]

5 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I voted yes in the referendum on a voice to Parliament. 

I have actually written to several of the politicians who have represented me in parliament over the decades expressing my wish for a treaty.

Both at state, and federal level.

 

I actually got my ex to email one a link to this song.

 

 

So, as an individual, I have done my best to make my voice heard on this subject. 

 

 

 

So even though the society I live in, doesn't live up to my wishes or expectations, that does not stop me having the right to comment on others.

 

And what does any of this have to do with the current conversation ?

 

If you believe, which I don't, that just because the Jewish people controlled the land nearly two thousand years ago, that gives them the right to a nation now, then I suggest you are living in a glass house.

That you should give back your land to the people, indigenous Canadians,who were there 10-15,000 years before European settlement.

 

And again this does not mean I don't believe in an Isreali state.

 

Just using your logic.

 

I live in a region with treaties with our First Nations people, they are prospering and I just voted for one to go to the legislature and represent me, She won by a thousand votes in my valley, on this subject, no glass house here. My half sister was raised as the daughter of the chief of her people and has the respect of her nation when she speaks, again no glass houses here. We still have a long way to go for restitution but we have treaties.

 

We are off topic now though. My point was the people who owned it, those from thousands of miles away obviously had the right to do what they wanted with it, because clearly every nation on earth was carved out of every other nation that came before it. Australia et al ad infinitum.

 

Also from what you have said out loud lately, no, no you don't believe in an Israeli state. Directly above in this same post you said exactly "If you believe, which I don't, that just because the Jewish people controlled the land nearly two thousand years ago, that gives them the right to a nation now..." So if you think that historical context doesn't count and you think the previous owners giving it to them doesn't count: then you don't believe that any right to Israel to exist counts. May as well stop with the lip service to that notion when you just don't believe it. I think you admit israel exists, that is different from wanting it to or agreeing it has a right to. 
Anyways, I hate arguing with you on it when you are leaning heavily into passion rather than facts. I lean to much to reality and fact maybe too. 

It is probably best we don't talk about this subject with each other until after it is over. The pain for you in how it gets to be over is not something I look forward to, but the reality is it is the Jetsons Vs the Flintstones and the Flintstones need to stop throwing rocks at the people with guns. Peace was as close as it has ever been in my lifetime on Oct 6th. Now that Gaza is almost over and a new peace and new biginning can start for everyone in the region there in and near Gaza...now we have Hezbollah firing rockets at Israel. This won't end well for muslims in Lebanan and that is not Israels fault, that is hezbollah's fault. ultimately Iran's but the average common Lebanese person is going to suffer the burden in a month to a years time when Hezbollah is defeated again, as they have been and been before that. This sucks and the terrorists are Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran, the terror sponsor. Israel must defend itself or perish. 

Neither of us will change our minds so peace and prosperity for you brother. I will try not to reply to you here in this thread going forward. 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Canuck Surfer said:

We've been through this before.

 

Jews controlled the region for about the same amount of time as Muslim cultures over 3000 years. The latter just more recently.

 

There are has never NOT been conflict. Arabic Muslims had the area before Turkic Ottomans. Google the Crusades.  Google Persian Empires, The Roman Empire.

 

Thats just being daft. Who did not own the territory at one point?

 

 

 

Did I not mention the crusades ?

 

And that is what I have been cleaning all the time.

It was under the Ottoman Empire that Muslims,Christians, Jews and other minorities lived in relative peace.

I even posted an article by a historian about that period.

 

Google Pax Ottomana.

[Ilunga]

14 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I live in a region with treaties with our First Nations people, they are prospering and I just voted for one to go to the legislature and represent me, She won by a thousand votes in my valley, on this subject, no glass house here. My half sister was raised as the daughter of the chief of her people and has the respect of her nation when she speaks, again no glass houses here. We still have a long way to go for restitution but we have treaties.

 

We are off topic now though. My point was the people who owned it, those from thousands of miles away obviously had the right to do what they wanted with it, because clearly every nation on earth was carved out of every other nation that came before it. Australia et al ad infinitum.

 

Also from what you have said out loud lately, no, no you don't believe in an Israeli state. Directly above in this same post you said exactly "If you believe, which I don't, that just because the Jewish people controlled the land nearly two thousand years ago, that gives them the right to a nation now..." So if you think that historical context doesn't count and you think the previous owners giving it to them doesn't count: then you don't believe that any right to Israel to exist counts. May as well stop with the lip service to that notion when you just don't believe it. I think you admit israel exists, that is different from wanting it to or agreeing it has a right to. 
Anyways, I hate arguing with you on it when you are leaning heavily into passion rather than facts. I lean to much to reality and fact maybe too. 

It is probably best we don't talk about this subject with each other until after it is over. The pain for you in how it gets to be over is not something I look forward to, but the reality is it is the Jetsons Vs the Flintstones and the Flintstones need to stop throwing rocks at the people with guns. Peace was as close as it has ever been in my lifetime on Oct 6th. Now that Gaza is almost over and a new peace and new biginning can start for everyone in the region there in and near Gaza...now we have Hezbollah firing rockets at Israel. This won't end well for muslims in Lebanan and that is not Israels fault, that is hezbollah's fault. ultimately Iran's but the average common Lebanese person is going to suffer the burden in a month to a years time when Hezbollah is defeated again, as they have been and been before that. This sucks and the terrorists are Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran, the terror sponsor. Israel must defend itself or perish. 

Neither of us will change our minds so peace and prosperity for you brother. I will try not to reply to you here in this thread going forward. 

 

No, I stated I don't believe that the basis of their claim to a state, is because they controlled the area 2000+ years ago.

 

I believe they have a right to a state, because they have a long " spiritual " connection to that land.

You mock people for their spirituality in another thread.

 

So you are wrong.

I do believe that the Jewish/Isreali people have a right to a state of their own in that particular area of the middle east.

 

And please stop with the passion BS.

If you wish to refute what I am stating, provide some evidence. 

 

 

Off topic ?

You brought up Australias lack of a treaty with our indigenous people, and I am glad you did.

It is a sore point with me.

 

And here you go denigrating the Palestinians again, likening them to " stone age " people.

The Flinstones. 

 

Edit

 

And peace was not close.

It has been Netanyahu stated aim while he has been in power, that there will never be a two state solution - Palestinian state.

Edited Tuesday at 03:58 AM by Ilunga

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

Did I not mention the crusades ?

 

And that is what I have been cleaning all the time.

It was under the Ottoman Empire that Muslims,Christians, Jews and other minorities lived in relative peace.

I even posted an article by a historian about that period.

 

Google Pax Ottomana.

 

I think we need to bring the big bang into this.

 

 

/s

[SilentSam]

15 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I think we need to bring the big bang into this.

 

 

/s

 

 

[JIAHN]

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

You take certain parts of my post and try and rewrite history.

 

Post some actual links to a historian that states there has been a 2000 year conflict in the middle east. 

That under the Ottoman Empire there was a constant conflict between Muslim's, Christians, Jews and other minorities.

Even major periods of conflict similar to what was happening in Europe at the time. 

You can't, because that was not the case.

 

What I have stated, is what many historian state, actual history.

That up until the western powers betrayed their supposed allies, the Arabs, they tried to divide the middle east up between themselves.

It was a relatively peaceful place after the Crusades. 

 

And most of your post about what was was happening in Palestine due to the British backs up my assertion.

 

What right did they, a country thousands of miles away, have to divide up the middle east ?

What right did they have to give away land that was not theirs to someone else ?

 

So according to you, a deal made by people thousands of miles away, trumps the right of people actually living there.

 

3 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

According to Australia too. something something glass houses something stones

 

https://humanrights.gov.au/about/news/speeches/emrip-australia-has-not-signed-federal-treaty-indigenous-peoples#:~:text=Australia is one of the,been negotiated with First Nations.

 

Australia is one of the only Commonwealth countries that has not signed a federal treaty or agreement with Indigenous peoples. As such, state institutions and laws, including the national Constitution, have developed without ever having been negotiated with First Nations. 

 

Guys..................we all want peace.........we all want no more people to die

 

But let's get real here. Man has been fighting wars and enslaving men since time began. The conquerors have always been brutal, and alway dictated to the losers. Not only that, but Stronger countries have always taken the riches..............leaving the losers, with nothing..............

 

I wish, it had been different, I wish this was different..................the middle east, like Ukraine, have had many conquerors, and the people have always suffered, many times, by people that lived next door, and had a one time of another called themselves friends..........

 

Let's face it boys, Europe and the Middle East have been like this for Millenia. I honestly hold little hope for man kind!

[Optimist Prime]

6 minutes ago, JIAHN said:

 

 

Guys..................we all want peace.........we all want no more people to die

 

But let's get real here. Man has been fighting wars and enslaving men since time began. The conquerors have always been brutal, and alway dictated to the losers. Not only that, but Stronger countries have always taken the riches..............leaving the losers, with nothing..............

 

I wish, it had been different, I wish this was different..................the middle east, like Ukraine, have had many conquerors, and the people have always suffered, many times, by people that lived next door, and had a one time of another called themselves friends..........

 

Let's face it boys, Europe and the Middle East have been like this for Millenia. I honestly hold little hope for man kind!

Good post. 

I have hope or maybe optimism that the kind of lives we live here in our really free and prosperous countries can be spread around the globe. I have always worn my globalism on my sleeves. When everyone enjoys what we take for granted, peace is likely to reign. 

[JIAHN]

7 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Good post. 

I have hope or maybe optimism that the kind of lives we live here in our really free and prosperous countries can be spread around the globe. I have always worn my globalism on my sleeves. When everyone enjoys what we take for granted, peace is likely to reign. 

 

Well, before we start dreaming too much. We need to understand there is an element with in our own North American fabric that want us to be more Ultra-Right. And fight tooth and Nail against them. 

[SavageSlav]

9 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Good post. 

I have hope or maybe optimism that the kind of lives we live here in our really free and prosperous countries can be spread around the globe. I have always worn my globalism on my sleeves. When everyone enjoys what we take for granted, peace is likely to reign. 

Why bother just nuke them out of existence. Let's GOO bobbay

 

37 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I think we need to bring the big bang into this.

 

 

/s

 

[Canuck Surfer]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

that up until the fall of the Ottoman Empire WW1, what is now known as the middle east was a relatively peaceful place.

 

Just for interest sakes; you did not catch any sense of irony?  Quoting a Turkish historian suggesting the ME was a relatively peaceful place under Ottoman rule? 

 

  

 

Erdogan also claimed, just 3 weeks ago in a speech to the UN I posted, that Turkic people have been historically just, and fair throughout time. You and him agree (on this)?

 

Armenians & Kurds say hi!  So do Jews, and on & on..., slavery covered all minority cultures, add Greeks, Slavs, Tatars, more in the empire while existential in brutality.

 

This was an empire subjugating all to enforcement by military conquest. Simple! That nobody knocked them off in near 600 years? Enjoying the spoils of resources, controls of markets and slave labour? Did not make their rule peaceful.  

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Further did not make any of the violent Pogroms the video (in spoiler above) quoted not occur. Those dates & events are a matter of historical fact.  

 

6 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Here is an article from a Professor of Turkish History at the University of California, a fellow member of Clan Shaw, describing how the Ottoman Empire offered European and Russian Jews sanctuary from the progroms, massacres and blood libels they experienced there.  

 

https://belleten.gov.tr/tam-metin/493/eng

LOL

 

Maybe there was a Schindler for Schindler. 

 

3 hours ago, Ilunga said:

So according to you, a deal made by people thousands of miles away, trumps the right of people actually living there.

 

Clearly British & French, plotting with Russians was & is not the best way of divvying up the Middle East. Nor intervention from the US and UN to make it more fair?  As they would have seen their role? Do I believe it was divided fairly? No, not at all! I pointed to collusion with other Arab states & leaders as part of the 'theft,' more specifically a Palestinian led state (not) formed. There is blame. I don't simply put as much of that on Israel & the British as you do.

 

Nothing has contributed more to the failure of establishing a Palestinian state, than their unwillingness to accept Jews & other cultures.

 

Its my observation that manipulative leadership, always militant, have climbed on this position! Also colluding neighbors. Yeah, embedded in the words of the prophet Muhammad; a God given right?  Failure to accept others is also their responsibility!

 

What about corruption? Greedy warlord after combinations of surrounding greedy Kings, followed by greedy militant terrorists, underwritten by greedy Autocrats & Dictators have all plundered the loyalties of Palestinian people. Often making themselves billionaires! Sold them out, leaving them to die & continue to do so.

 

None successfully enough, to take on Israel militarily. Which actually keeps the militants in power?

 

Corruption by appears the catalyst for most. You believe by Britain & Israel, myself militant leaders. 

 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, JIAHN said:

 

 

Guys..................we all want peace.........we all want no more people to die

 

But let's get real here. Man has been fighting wars and enslaving men since time began. The conquerors have always been brutal, and alway dictated to the losers. Not only that, but Stronger countries have always taken the riches..............leaving the losers, with nothing..............

 

I wish, it had been different, I wish this was different..................the middle east, like Ukraine, have had many conquerors, and the people have always suffered, many times, by people that lived next door, and had a one time of another called themselves friends..........

 

Let's face it boys, Europe and the Middle East have been like this for Millenia. I honestly hold little hope for man kind!

 

Funny how the strong, the west, are helping the weak, Ukraine in their war.

 

In the middle east, they stronger, the west, are helping the strong, Israel, oppress the weak, Palestinians.

 

And by supplying them weapons for this conflict, they, the west are realising they maybe complicit in Isreals war crimes. 

 

I have asked a few people how they would feel if they were a Palestinian living in the occupied territories or Gaza.

No one wants to answer this question. 

 

The Jewish people in the middle east certainly didn't suffer the same level of persecution they endured in Europe, Russia and other parts of the world.

[Ilunga]

39 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Just for interest sakes; you did not catch any sense of irony?  Quoting a Turkish historian suggesting the ME was a relatively peaceful place under Ottoman rule? 

 

  

 

Erdogan also claimed, just 3 weeks ago in a speech to the UN I posted, that Turkic people have been historically just, and fair throughout time. You and him agree (on this)?

 

Armenians & Kurds say hi!  So do Jews, and on & on..., slavery covered all minority cultures, add Greeks, Slavs, Tatars, more in the empire while existential in brutality.

 

This was an empire subjugating all to enforcement by military conquest. Simple! That nobody knocked them off in near 600 years? Enjoying the spoils of resources, controls of markets and slave labour? Did not make their rule peaceful.  

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Further did not make any of the violent Pogroms the video (in spoiler above) quoted not occur. Those dates & events are a matter of historical fact.  

 

LOL

 

Maybe there was a Schindler for Schindler. 

 

 

Clearly British & French, plotting with Russians was & is not the best way of divvying up the Middle East. Nor intervention from the US and UN to make it more fair?  As they would have seen their role? Do I believe it was divided fairly? No, not at all! I pointed to collusion with other Arab states & leaders as part of the 'theft,' more specifically a Palestinian led state (not) formed. There is blame. I don't simply put as much of that on Israel & the British as you do.

 

Nothing has contributed more to the failure of establishing a Palestinian state, than their unwillingness to accept Jews & other cultures.

 

Its my observation that manipulative leadership, always militant, have climbed on this position! Also colluding neighbors. Yeah, embedded in the words of the prophet Muhammad; a God given right?  Failure to accept others is also their responsibility!

 

What about corruption? Greedy warlord after combinations of surrounding greedy Kings, followed by greedy militant terrorists, underwritten by greedy Autocrats & Dictators have all plundered the loyalties of Palestinian people. Often making themselves billionaires! Sold them out, leaving them to die & continue to do so.

 

None successfully enough, to take on Israel militarily. Which actually keeps the militants in power?

 

Corruption by appears the catalyst for most. You believe by Britain & Israel, myself militant leaders. 

 

 

It shouldn't have been divided up by the west full stop. 

It was never their land in the first place.

 

I put the blame at the feet of the people, who so many claim, are the good guys. 

The guys that claim to believe in democracy.

 

On that note I was watching, America Are You OK, last night on the ABC.

America, a democracy ?

I suggest you watch it and see that's a bunch of crap that is.

Voter suppression, Gerrymandering, a system that is basically being designed to divide their nation.

It was quite schocking some of the things I learnt. 

 

The people everyone label as the bad guys, are bad.

They don't pretend other wise.

 

I have more disgust for the people who claim to be the good guys, but when you cut to the chase, they aren't a lot different to the bad guys. 

 

This does not mean I absolve the bad guys of their sins, or their contribution to the fucked up situation in the middle east. 

 

Just don't try and tell me,  that when people slaughter tens of thousands of women and children,

injure hundred  thousand more civilians, and destroy an entire enclave, they are the good guys.

 

So was it those militant leaders you speak of that orchestrated a coup to overthrow a democratically elected secular government in Iran ?

 

No it wasn't.

It was the British and the Seppos.

That one single act changed the middle east so much.

Very likely that Iran wouldn't be sponsoring Hamas', Hezbollah and the Houthis right now.

 

Edit 

I didn't quote a Turkish historian.

 

I suggest you actually read both the article and who wrote it.

 

I quoted a fellow member of the Clan Shaw, who studies and teaches Turkish history at the University of California.

 

So, no he isn't Turkish.

 

Edited Tuesday at 07:21 AM by Ilunga

[Ilunga]

@Canuck Surfer 

 

Jews, Christians and Muslims lived in peace 

Sure shit went down, just like it did in every corner of this world.

 

However it isn't the hellhole you make it out to be have been.

[Canuck Surfer]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

So was it those militant leaders you speak of that orchestrated a coup to overthrow a democratically elected secular government in Iran ?

 

No; the US overthrew the govt in Iran 70 + years ago.  Different leaders. I don't excuse that. Not that Iran is the Middle East. Not that Irans leadership is holy. Or accepting of current peoples rights. Nor as guilty in wars that have killed ten x as many people as have died in Gaza. Against populations that are not Jews.

 

Spoiler

Again I don't excuse CIA actions there. 

 

The world was a different place; cold war, communism. Iran was somewhat involved? Their democratically elected govt nationalized the oil industry. From, among other companies, the conglomerate that is still British Petroleum.  And other industries.  Much like Lenin's people's movements were taking over farms circa around 1920. Similar things in numerous countries occurred. 

 

I imagine the West thought they were protecting their interests?  No actual answer; should not have happened.

 

They are indeed militants leaders at this point. Yes! With a very specific agenda.  

 

3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

However it isn't the hellhole you make it out to be have been.

 

I wont watch that.  I watch most of yours.  Iran is expelling Pakistani's, Kurds, telling women to cover their faces, restricting their right to work. To keep a ruling party in power. Hamas has expelled virtually every other culture & religion. My perception of Apartheid is clearly defined in the actions of Hamas & the Islamic Republic Party. 

 

My opinion is just different than yours. 

[Ilunga]

@Canuck Surfer 

 

" Palestinians Christians and Muslims have lived together in the region for centuries; and several where killed recently while sheltering in the historic church of Saint Porphyrius "

 

https://theconversation.com/palestinian-christians-and-muslims-have-lived-together-in-the-region-for-centuries-and-several-were-killed-recently-while-sheltering-in-the-historic-church-of-saint-porphyrius-216335 

 

Apart from the fact this illustrates that Christians and Muslims have coexisted peacefully in Palestine/Isreal, who is the bad guys, killing people while sheltering in a church ?