Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

No; the US overthrew the govt in Iran 70 + years ago.  Different leaders. I don't excuse that. Not that Iran is the Middle East. Not that Irans leadership is holy. Or accepting of current peoples rights. Nor as guilty in wars that have killed ten x as many people as have died in Gaza. Against populations that are not Jews.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Again I don't excuse CIA actions there. 

 

The world was a different place; cold war, communism. Iran was somewhat involved? Their democratically elected govt nationalized the oil industry. From, among other companies, the conglomerate that is still British Petroleum.  And other industries.  Much like Lenin's people's movements were taking over farms circa around 1920. Similar things in numerous countries occurred. 

 

I imagine the West thought they were protecting their interests?  No actual answer; should not have happened.

 

They are indeed militants leaders at this point. Yes! With a very specific agenda.  

 

 

I wont watch that.  I watch most of yours.  Iran is expelling Pakistani's, Kurds, telling women to cover their faces, restricting their right to work. To keep a ruling party in power. Hamas has expelled virtually every other culture & religion. My perception of Apartheid is clearly defined in the actions of Hamas & the Islamic Republic Party. 

 

My opinion is just different than yours. 

 

See that's the difference between us.

I have condemned the leadership of Iran many times for their crimes against humanity.

 

You give Isreal a pass. 

[Ilunga]

@Canuck Surfer 

 

We talk about persecution and prejudice.

My mum used to tell me that Catholics used to experience predjudice in Australia when she was young.

Similar to America.

 

People forget that Catholics experienced predjudice in the states up until JFK made it " cool " to be a catholic in American society.  

 

However they existed relatively peacefully together.

Just like in they did in the middle east for centuries.

[Canuck Surfer]

21 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

@Canuck Surfer 

 

" Palestinians Christians and Muslims have lived together in the region for centuries; and several where killed recently while sheltering in the historic church of Saint Porphyrius "

 

https://theconversation.com/palestinian-christians-and-muslims-have-lived-together-in-the-region-for-centuries-and-several-were-killed-recently-while-sheltering-in-the-historic-church-of-saint-porphyrius-216335 

 

Apart from the fact this illustrates that Christians and Muslims have coexisted peacefully in Palestine/Isreal, who is the bad guys, killing people while sheltering in a church ?

 

Stop it. Also with sanctity ''difference between me & you.'' 

 

Israel could withdraw tomorrow. If Palestinian leadership still has a policy of killing all Jews.  Another Oct 7 will happen. This was 2019 BTW. People did Pogroms against Jews the day in 1948 that the Arab League attacked the hours old state of Israel. That preceded Eisenhower, or whomever it was that bent Irans democratic govt by the CIA's involvement in a coup. The kill all Jews policy was in place when they did Pogroms in East Jerusalem in 1928. In 1898, even before the Turks were removed.

 

The overriding problem is the policy! You can produce a video that ignores Pogroms took place exactly when it says everything is peace love & happiness? 

 

The Pogroms still took place.

 

The policy still exists.

 

[Ilunga]

@Canuck Surfer

 

 

" It can be another way: Jews and Muslims can live peacefully "

 

https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/it-can-be-another-way-jews-and-muslims-can-live-peacefully,18113

 

" One of the greatest lies about the present discourse about Palestine and Isreal is the myth of eternal hostility between Jews and Muslims "

 

" Uri Avnery who began public life as an irgun terrorist "

 

Stated 

 

" Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times 'by the sword' to get them to abandon their faith ".

 

That by the sword comment is in relation to pope Benedict's hate speech.

That guy was, well let's just say, not a very nice person.

 

And we know what he means by the Christian world, Europe, Russia and other western nations to a lesser degree.

[Ilunga]

Just now, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Stop it. Also with sanctity ''difference between me & you.'' 

 

Israel could withdraw tomorrow. If Palestinian leadership still has a policy of killing all Jews.  Another Oct 7 will happen. This was 2019 BTW. People did Pogroms against Jews the day in 1948 that the Arab League attacked the hours old state of Israel. That preceded Eisenhower, or whomever it was that bent Irans democratic govt by the CIA's involvement in a coup. The kill all Jews policy was in place when they did Pogroms in East Jerusalem in 1928. In 1898, even before the Turks were removed.

 

The overriding problem is the policy! You can produce a video that ignores Pogroms took place exactly when it says everything is peace love & happiness? 

 

The Pogroms still took place.

 

The policy still exists.

 

 

No sanctity, just stating a fact.

 

I have Condemned the Mullahs many times.

 

I have stated I wish they would just disappear from the face of the earth.

Same with Hamas', Hezbollah and the Houthis.

And the Bin Salman's for that matter.

 

You have not, to my knowledge condemned Isreals crimes in Gaza. 

So yes there is a difference between us.

Again no sanctity involved.

 

Yeah and I could post a video I was watching last night where Isrealis were calling for the death of Palestinians, however I don't spread hate filled messages.

 

And again you twist my words, I stated they lived together in relative peace.  

Not in peace, love and happiness. 

 

 

 

And I am going with Uri Avnery on this one, he knows his people's history better than either of us. 

 

As he stated, 

 

" Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations while the Christian world " the west " persecuted the Jews "

[Canuck Surfer]

22 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

My mum used to tell me that Catholics used to experience predjudice in Australia when she was young.

Similar to America.

 

You grew up in a Christian household.  

 

Somehow support causes where Jewish & Christian cultures might not belong? Those who attack Israel, claim they are the only possible rightsholder to Holy Lands. Would have been taught at school about the Birth of civilization between the Tigras & Euphrates, in what is now Iraq. Ignoring Africa, etc.. That there were Dead Sea Scrolls & Jesus was born in Bethlehem. For jeeps sakes, Moses crossed the Red Sea to escape from who?

 

Two or three pages ago you asked for sources that said there was conflict in the Middle East hundreds & thousands of years ago? I quoted Pogroms, which you dispute. Quote sources that say all was great. I'm finding it hard to take. Are these better;

 

* The Bible

* The Torah

* The Qaran

 

With apologies I am putting you on block. 

[Ilunga]

Just now, Canuck Surfer said:

 

You grew up in a Christian household.  

 

Somehow support causes where Jewish & Christian cultures might not belong? Those who attack Israel, claim they are the only possible rightsholder to Holy Lands. Would have been taught at school about the Birth of civilization between the Tigras & Euphrates, in what is now Iraq. Ignoring Africa, etc.. That there were Dead Sea Scrolls & Jesus was born in Bethlehem. For jeeps sakes, Moses crossed the Red Sea to escape from who?

 

Two or three pages ago you asked for sources that said there was conflict in the Middle East hundreds & thousands of years ago? I quoted Pogroms, which you dispute. Quote sources that say all was great. I'm finding it hard to take. Are these better;

 

* The Bible

* The Torah

* The Qaran

 

With apologies I am putting you on block. 

 

The Bible, the Torah and the Quran ?

 

Seriously, books that contain myths and allegories are your source of information ? 

 

And you do know that Moses is a mythical figure right ? 

There is no historical evidence that he existed. 

There is no historical/ archaeological evidence of an exodus of Jews from Egypt.

 

And I didn't ask for sources that relate to thousands of years ago. 

I asked for sources that relate to the Ottoman Empire time in control of of what is know known as Palestine/Isreal 

 

And where did I dispute them ?

Did I actually state they did not happen ? 

I didn't.

Where did I support causes where Jewish and Christian cultures might not belong ?

Quote me please. 

 

 

 

And my sources didn't say all was great. 

They stated that that different ethnicities and people with different religious beliefs lived in relative peace together. 

 

Again I support one cause, justice for all people wherever they live.

Isrealis have a place where there they don't have to hope for a better future in regards to their quality of life.

The Palestinians quality of life sucks.

Especially now.

Millions are suffering.

 

I grew up in a household that taught me to show compassion and empathy for everyone.

That's why I post videos and articles about Isrealis who advocate for these things. 

 

I don't post videos of Isrealis espousing hate, even though I have watched such videos.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

 

@Canuck Surfer

 

This is an article about some books written about the history of Iraqi Jews.

 

It does detail persecution of Jews both before and after Ottoman rule.

 

And while the Jewish community in Iraq experienced it's ups and downs during Ottoman rule, it starts with the words 

 

https://www.sephardichorizons.org/Volume11/Issue1/Raphaeli.html

 

 

 

" Beginning in 1520 and for the next four centuries Iraq came under the rule of the Ottoman Empire. With few exceptions the Jews encountered little discrimination during the Ottoman era. In fact Jews and Christians enjoyed a period of tranquility and tolerance. " 

 

Again, it wasn't perfect, they did cop some shit here and there, but overall it was a period where Jews, Christians and Muslims coexisted peacefully.

 

 

I find the answer to the author of the article question as to the motivation of the writer of these volumes, poignant.

 

" There is a considerable yearning for a minority that had contributed so much to the development of the country in so many areas and there is a feeling that, after their forced departure, Iraq has never been whole  again "

[Taxi]

11 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

History " agrees " there was relative peace in what is now known as the middle east.

A quick Google search illustrates that.

As that historian I quoted claimed, Muslims, Christians, Jews and other Minorities lived in relative peace.

 

Here is an article from a Professor of Turkish History at the University of California, a fellow member of Clan Shaw, describing how the Ottoman Empire offered European and Russian Jews sanctuary from the progroms, massacres and blood libels they experienced there.  

 

https://belleten.gov.tr/tam-metin/493/eng

 

 

 

I can tell you what didn't happen to people in the Palestine/ Israel in in the 18th century.

They weren't convicted as criminals for stealing a loaf of bread to feed their families, and sent to a " penal colony " on the other side of the planet.

 

Like any place on this planet before the 20th century, life for your " average " person wasn't the best, even here in western countries.

 

Many forget that it has only been 4-5 generations that we, the average person in " western " nations  have had the rights, and quality of our life we now experience.

 

 

 

And please don't suggest that the US and British were and have been benevolent in their involvement in the middle east.

They betrayed the Arabs from day 1.

Their promise of an independent Arab state in order to get Arabian help fighting the Ottomans, which they reneged on as soon as the war ended.

The Sykes-Picot agreement.

The British and French dividing up the middle east between themselves.

All the way through the constant meddling, orchestrating coups, illegal invasions. 

 

 

The Ottoman empire was brutal. I think you need to familiarize yourself with the Armenian, Kurdish, and Greek genocides. And yes, Turkish scholars deny those too. 

 

The Jews of the Ottoman empire were treated as dhimmis and were the subject of regular slaughter. Maybe things weren't as bad as Europe, but that's an extremely low bar.

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Taxi said:

The Ottoman empire was brutal. I think you need to familiarize yourself with the Armenian, Kurdish, and Greek genocides. And  yes, Turkish scholars deny those too. 

 

The Jews of the Ottoman empire were treated as dhimmis and were the subject of regular slaughter. Maybe things weren't as bad as Europe, but that's an extremely low bar.

 

 

I specifically stated that Muslims, Christians and Jews living together in relative peace in the Ottoman Empire up until WW1.

 

The Armenian genocide happened during WW1 did it not.

Same with the Kurds.

Same with the Greeks.

 

The Turks deny them too ?

 

Are you suggesting I have denied these events when I haven't even mentioned them ?

 

Typical taxi, trying to make false claims. 

 

I don't deny historical events that are well documented and took place.

Unlike you.

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Ilunga]

7 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

 

This illustrates how detailed Israeli information is in regards to what they know about the terror groups they are fighting. 

 

Makes you wonder why they have nearly  destroyed Gaza, when they have information like this about their enemies.

 

 

[JIAHN]

Ok, this is not an indictment towards Muslims, Jews, or Christians

 

This is an indictment towards those men in history who have incited hate towards the common folk of these 3 religious sects

 

Let's first off, start by saying, the Old Testament, the new Testament, and the Qur'an, do not speak vile of each other

 

But! Later teachings, do segregate each other, and in fact Muhammad spoke more and more about the differences, and how they were to be treated

 

https://www.alislam.org/question/islam-view-about-jews/         (This is a quick and short description of how the Qur'an addresses Jews)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_views_on_Jews       ( This is how and why their relationships broke down)

 

Now, the later, is really how Both Jew and Muslim clergy, demanded acceptance from each other, and how each moved away from acceptance of each other. (I am paraphrasing for time), but really it was men, as far back as Muhammad and His Jewish counter parts, that started to be more militant towards each other, in their teachings.

 

I find it funny, as a non believer of both teachings, how both the Old Testament and the Qur'an have many of the same, prophets, in them, and that there was peace, between them at first.........I find it funny how men, as far back as Muhammad, intentionally began separating themselves from each other, or parts of each other.

 

I find it ironic, that as time has passed on, that both teachings, have moved farther and farther away, from the text, by (again) men!

 

(Please note* I use only the name "Muhannad" as a time indicator, and not the primer, as he was only one of the many actors that seeked to further divide the two religions.

 

that was the start.........that is where this all began, and even then, men of both religions began to push a negative agenda............

 

Fast forward to today, and we have a multitude of bad actors over the last 100 years, until today, it is such a mess, that God himself, will need to step in and correct the mess "MAN" has made!

 

Now, many will disagree with my next statement, but all prophets were men, and IMHO, that include Jesus, and Muhammad, and all in someway, contributed to the separation of Middle East religions. Today, the men of power, which includes, Iran, Syria, Israel, USA, Russia, and others seek to control and influence common people, instilling hate, and fundamental disagreements.

 

@Ilunga All these players are at fault, as well as many of the ancient teachers. You have asked many on here, what would they do, if this type of war was brought to our doorstep. I have no problem answering you.

 

I would probably try and kill, those that wanted to kill or control me. But, at some point, when I had seen that the war was futile, and our people were being decimated, I would encourage, standing down and take what I was given. Just like a beaten dog! IMO, that is where I would moved against those that fought to continue the war.........because I would fight until I gave up, I would understand those that did not, but in the end, when my family was in danger at every corner of the planet, I would kill those that, continued the fight, knowing the bombing would stop, then shortly there after. Not  to mention that more order and rebuilding would start.

 

IMHO, this is what Israel is hoping for, and why they continue...............It is what I would do, at this point!

 

But as a man, who lives in Canada, and has no skin in the game, and loves his fellow man.............I cry for the common Israeli and common Muslim

 

 

[Gnarcore]

8 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Stop it. Also with sanctity ''difference between me & you.'' 

 

Israel could withdraw tomorrow. If Palestinian leadership still has a policy of killing all Jews.  Another Oct 7 will happen. This was 2019 BTW. People did Pogroms against Jews the day in 1948 that the Arab League attacked the hours old state of Israel. That preceded Eisenhower, or whomever it was that bent Irans democratic govt by the CIA's involvement in a coup. The kill all Jews policy was in place when they did Pogroms in East Jerusalem in 1928. In 1898, even before the Turks were removed.

 

The overriding problem is the policy! You can produce a video that ignores Pogroms took place exactly when it says everything is peace love & happiness? 

 

The Pogroms still took place.

 

The policy still exists.

 

I think at this point there will be another attack regardless even be it decades down road. They have just killed too many people and obliterated a region for there not to be. Those who survive will have the next generation of hatred buried deep and running strong from all this on top of existing feelings that were already strong. Israel was dammed if they do and dammed if they don't in this situation but it is A LOT of death. 

EDIT: Say my whole family was killed but me...I am probably going to at least think about it. 

Edited Tuesday at 04:50 PM by Gnarcore

[Bob Long]

7 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

I think at this point there will be another attack regardless even be it decades down road. They have just killed too many people and obliterated a region for there not to be. Those who survive will have the next generation of hatred buried deep and running strong from all this on top of existing feelings that were already strong. Israel was dammed if they do and dammed if they don't in this situation but it is A LOT of death. 

EDIT: Say my whole family was killed but me...I am probably going to at least think about it. 

 

as long as this is the predominant ideology, Palestinians will be fucked. They will get bombed into oblivion again, and be pawns of Iran, again. 

 

As difficult as it is (and easy for me to say) they have to find a way to live peacefully. Does anyone really think a few more decades of digging tunnels and lobbing shitty rockets would make a difference?

 

Rebuilding Gaza with Saudi help might provide the stability and quality of new homes and business needed to actually form a decent life at some point. If we just have more of the same then, well, we will just have more of this Stone Age stuff as OP puts it. 

 

[Gnarcore]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

as long as this is the predominant ideology, Palestinians will be fucked. They will get bombed into oblivion again, and be pawns of Iran, again. 

 

As difficult as it is (and easy for me to say) they have to find a way to live peacefully. Does anyone really think a few more decades of digging tunnels and lobbing shitty rockets would make a difference?

 

Rebuilding Gaza with Saudi help might provide the stability and quality of new homes and business needed to actually form a decent life at some point. If we just have more of the same then, well, we will just have more of this Stone Age stuff as OP puts it. 

 

I agree that that would be in their best interests and would love to see a day when it happens. But we live in the real world with people. I just don't see it happening until something radical happens for humanity as a whole such as cold fusion free energy and us having a Star Trek like existence where people work for their passion and not survival. But if a day happens where they're not penned into essentially apartheid light and have a quality of life similar we MAY see it...may. Sadly the scope of the retaliation for Oct 7th will not be forgotten and very difficult to move on from. 

For fucks sake how often has Holocaust been referenced in all this and it has been 80+ years and I understand that. When your people are being exterminated with the aim to wipe you out you don't tend to move on from it. And just to add I am not comparing the Holocaust and this or calling it genocide but those living through it well they may feel that way. 

[Optimist Prime]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

we will just have more of this Stone Age stuff as OP puts it. 

I wasn't very clear: I only intended to highlight the difference in each sides ability to wage war. Shitty rockets and old AK's and slinging rocks and throwing bottles of gas with a flaming rag in it to me is the "Flintstones" when compared to the "Jetsons" of Fifth generation Fighter Bombers, ICBM's, Ballistic Missiles, Earth Orbit Satellites, massive technological innovations in Communications Research, a highly skilled, highly trained army with modern tanks, choppers, APC's and BPM's, and the width and breadth of the various spy agencies; Aman, Mossad, Shin Bet, Israeli Police Intelligence division and the more political Center for Political Research.

 

In no way was I trying to insult a culture by referring to them as cave men or neanderthals. Let me make that perfectly clear yet again. 

 

If you think you can win by chucking rocks and flaming bottles of gas, and praying, and then cry foul when the 1200 round a minute gun opens up on you and your friends, you are the flintstones in the anecdote. 

[Bob Long]

5 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I wasn't very clear: I only intended to highlight the difference in each sides ability to wage war. Shitty rockets and old AK's and slinging rocks and throwing bottles of gas with a flaming rag in it to me is the "Flintstones" when compared to the "Jetsons" of Fifth generation Fighter Bombers, ICBM's, Ballistic Missiles, Earth Orbit Satellites, massive technological innovations in Communications Research, a highly skilled, highly trained army with modern tanks, choppers, APC's and BPM's, and the width and breadth of the various spy agencies; Aman, Mossad, Shin Bet, Israeli Police Intelligence division and the more political Center for Political Research.

 

In no way was I trying to insult a culture by referring to them as cave men or neanderthals. Let me make that perfectly clear yet again. 

 

If you think you can win by chucking rocks and flaming bottles of gas, and praying, and then cry foul when the 1200 round a minute gun opens up on you and your friends, you are the flintstones in the anecdote. 

 

this is how I thought you meant it. 

 

[Bob Long]

9 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

I agree that that would be in their best interests and would love to see a day when it happens. But we live in the real world with people. I just don't see it happening until something radical happens for humanity as a whole such as cold fusion free energy and us having a Star Trek like existence where people work for their passion and not survival. But if a day happens where they're not penned into essentially apartheid light and have a quality of life similar we MAY see it...may. Sadly the scope of the retaliation for Oct 7th will not be forgotten and very difficult to move on from. 

For fucks sake how often has Holocaust been referenced in all this and it has been 80+ years and I understand that. When your people are being exterminated with the aim to wipe you out you don't tend to move on from it. And just to add I am not comparing the Holocaust and this or calling it genocide but those living through it well they may feel that way. 

 

I'm sure many of them do feel this way. And you're probably correct on views moving forward. So I guess this is all just another chapter towards...? dunno. 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

It took more than a generation for Germans & Japanese being disarmed for the world to feel comfortable?

 

Also reinvesting in their economies and way of life. 

[Optimist Prime]

42 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

this is how I thought you meant it. 

 

I thought it was obvious. I speak more Arabic than Hebrew, so much so that I accidentally referred to Hebrew as Yiddish(the way Syrians in Damascus would), insulting a  Jewish member of our forums in the process. I have said repeatedly and I mean it, that if it wasn't so dangerous in Syria I would retire there. Banias is a beautiful place of ancient histories and flora and fauna that I would love to be around for the rest of my days. Hopefully before I am too old peace and democracy will come to the people of Syria and I can go back. My buddy had an area of specialty in Turkey and he retired there marrying a local he fell in love with over the years. He has recently passed of heart issues, after four or five full on heart attacks. He enjoyed a Villa on the Aegean, an olive farm, a city center Condo type place when he passed away, inheriting two of the three from his in-laws over time. Now his widow, her daughter, niece and mother along with an old uncle have the properties. I always wanted to get a small acreage near the burial place of Pan. Yeah, there are Celtic ruins in Syria, wild eh? This spot is amazing: a huge ancient cave that runs very deep into the hillside..and at the back of it is a waterfall where an underground river passed through the cave. In ancient times sacrifices were taken into the cave and thrown into the raging waters...to the onlookers outside where the underground river comes to the surface and makes its way eventually to the Mediterranean Sea... the waters would run red with the blood of the sacrificial humans, or goats or what have you... and appear to be a sign from the gods.... nowadays no red waters, haha, but there is so much history there I am drawn to it. 

Any who, despite all that Israel must defend itself or perish, and as we the west propped up Israel in our grandparents generation, we owe it to them to ensure they can defend themselves. To not do that would essentially be an end game to ensure another holocaust and that can not happen on NATO's watch. 

Found a pic:

i was mistaken: it joins eventually into the River Jordan, not flowing to the Med. But to the Red Sea! wow. 

 

Spoiler

Paneas (Ancient Greek: Πανεάς,^[12] Latin Fanium) was first settled in the Hellenistic period following Alexander the Great's conquest of the east. The Ptolemaic kings built a cult centre there in the 3rd century BCE. In extant sections of the Greek historian Polybius's history of 'The Rise of the Roman Empire', a Battle of Panium is mentioned. This battle was fought in ca. 200–198 BCE between the armies of Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucids of Coele-Syria, led by Antiochus III.^[13][14][15] Antiochus's victory cemented Seleucid control over Phoenicia, Galilee, Samaria, and Judea until the Maccabean revolt. It was these Seleucids who built a pagan temple dedicated to Pan at Paneas.^[16]

In 2020, an altar with a Greek inscription was found in the walls of a church of the 7th century A.D. The inscription records that the altar was dedicated by Atheneon, son of Sosipatros, from the city of Antioch to the god Pan Heliopolitanos.^[17]

An artist's reconstruction of the Sanctuary of Pan

In 2022, the Israeli Antiquities Authority discovered a trove of 44 pure gold coins from the early 7th Century CE. While some of the coins were minted by the Byzantine-Roman Emperor Phocas (602-610 CE), most date to the reign of his successor, Emperor Heraclius (610-641). The latest of the coins date to the period of the Arab conquest of the Levant.^[18]

Roman and Christian Byzantine periods

[edit]

Upon Zenodorus's death in 20 BC, the Panion (Greek: Πανιάς), including Paneas, was annexed to the Herodian Kingdom of Judea, a client of the Roman Republic and Roman Empire.^[19] Josephus mentions that Herod the Great erected a temple of 'white marble' nearby in honor of his patron; it was found in the nearby site of Omrit.

In 3 BCE, Herod's son, Philip (also known as Philip the Tetrarch) founded a city which became his administrative capital, known from Josephus^[20] and the Gospels of Matthew and Mark as Caesarea or Caesarea Philippi, to distinguish it from Caesarea Maritima and other cities named Caesarea (Matthew 16, Matthew 16:13, Mark 8, Mark 8:27). On the death of Philip in 34 CE his kingdom was briefly incorporated into the province of Syria, with the city given the autonomy to administer its own revenues,^[21] before reverting to his nephew, Herod Agrippa I.^{[citation needed]}

The ancient city is mentioned in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark, under the name of Caesarea Philippi, as the place where Jesus confirmed Peter's assumption that Jesus was the Messiah;^[5] the place is today a place of pilgrimage for Christians.^[6]

In 61 CE, king Agrippa II renamed the administrative capital Neronias in honor of the Roman emperor Nero, but this name was discarded several years later, in 68 CE.^[22] Agrippa also carried out urban improvements.^{[Note 1]}

The remains of the palace of Philip and/or Agrippa II

In 67 CE, during the First Jewish–Roman War, Vespasian briefly visited Caesarea Philippi before advancing on Tiberias in Galilee.^[24]

With the death of Agrippa II around 92 CE came the end of Herodian rule, and the city returned to the province of Syria.

In the late Roman and Byzantine periods the written sources name the city again as Paneas, or more seldom as Caesarea Paneas.^[25]

In 361, Emperor Julian the Apostate instigated a religious reformation of the Roman state,^[26] in which he supported the restoration of Hellenistic polytheism as the state religion.^[27] In Paneas this was achieved by replacing Christian symbols with pagan ones, though the change was short lived.

In the 5th century, following the division of the Empire, the city was part of the Eastern (later Byzantine) Empire, but was lost to the Arab conquest of the Levant in the 7th century.

Early Muslim period

[edit]

In 635, Paneas gained favourable terms of surrender from the Muslim army of Khalid ibn al-Walid after it had defeated Heraclius' forces. In 636, a second, newly formed Byzantine army advancing on Palestine used Paneas as a staging post on the way to confront the Muslim army at the final Battle of Yarmouk.^[28]

The depopulation of Paneas after the Muslim conquest was rapid, as its traditional markets disappeared. Only 14 of the 173 Byzantine sites in the area show signs of habitation from this period. The Hellenised city thus fell into a precipitous decline. At the council of al-Jabiyah, when the administration of the new territory of the Umar Caliphate was established, Paneas remained the principal city of the district of al-Djawlan (the Djawlan) in the jund (military Province) of Dimashq (Damascus), due to its strategic military importance on the border with Jund al-Urdunn, which comprised the Galilee and territories east and north of it.^[29][30]

Around 780 CE the nun Hugeburc visited Caesarea and reported that the town 'had' a church and a great many Christians, but her account does not clarify whether any of those Christians were still living in the town at the time of her visit.^[31]

The transfer of the Abbasid Caliphate capital from Damascus to Baghdad inaugurated the flowering of the Islamic Golden Age at the expense of the provinces.^[32] With the decline of Abbasid power in the tenth century, Paneas found itself a provincial backwater in a slowly collapsing empire,^[33] as district governors began to exert greater autonomy and used their increasing power to make their positions hereditary.^[34] The control of Syria and Paneas passed to the Fatimids of Egypt.

At the end of the 9th century Al-Ya'qubi reaffirms that Paneas was still the capital of al-Djawlan in the jund of Dimshq, although by then the town was known as Madīnat al-Askat (city of the tribes) with its inhabitants being Qays, mostly of the Banu Murra with some Yamani families.^[35]

Due to the Byzantine advances under Nicephorus Phocas and John Zimisces into the Abbasid empire, a wave of refugees fled south and augmented the population of Madīnat al-Askat. The city was taken over by an extreme Shī‘ah sect of the Bedouin Qarāmita in 968. In 970 the Fatimids again briefly took control, only to lose it again to the Qarāmita. The old population of Banias along with the new refugees formed a Sunni sufi ascetic community.^[36] In 975 the Fatimid al-'Aziz wrested control in an attempt to subdue the anti-Fatimid agitation of Mahammad b. Ahmad al-Nablusi and his followers and to extend Fatimid control into Syria.^[36] al-Nabulusi’s school of hadith was to survive in Banias under the tutelage of Arab scholars such as Abú Ishaq (Ibrahim b. Hatim) and al-Balluti.^[37]

Crusader/Ayyubid period

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Further information: Toron

Kŭl’at es-Subeibeh, near Banias, from the 1871-77 PEF Survey of Palestine

The Crusaders' arrival in 1099 quickly split the mosaic of semi-independent cities of the Seljuk sultanate of Damascus.^[38]

The Crusaders held the town twice, between 1129–1132 and 1140–1164.^[39] It was called by the Franks Belinas or Caesarea Philippi.^[40] From 1126–1129, the town was held by Assassins, and was turned over to the Franks following the purge of the sect from Damascus by Buri. Later on, Shams al-Mulk Isma'il attacked Banias and captured it on 11 December 1132.^[41][42] In 1137, Banias became under the rule of Imad al-Din Zengi.^[43] In late spring 1140, Mu'in ad-Din Unur handed Banias to the Crusaders during the reign of King Fulk, due to their assistance against Zengi's aggression towards Damascus.^[43]

With the arrival of fresh troops to the Holy Land, King Baldwin III of Jerusalem broke the three-month-old truce of February 1157 by raiding the large flocks that the Turcoman people had pastured in the area. In that year, Banias became the principal centre of Humphrey II of Toron's fiefdom, along with his being the constable of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, after it had first been granted to the Knights Hospitaller by Baldwin III. The Knights Hospitaller, having fallen into an ambush, relinquished the fiefdom.^[44]

On 18 May 1157, Nūr ad-Din began a siege on Banias using mangonels, a type of siege engine.^[45] Humphrey was under attack in Banias and Baldwin III was able to break the siege, only to be ambushed at Jacob's Ford in June 1157. The fresh troops arriving from Antioch and Tripoli were able to relieved the besieged crusaders.

The Lordship of Banias which was a sub-vassal within the Lordship of Beirut, was captured by Nūr ad-Din on 18 November 1164.^[46][47] The Franks had built a castle at Hunin (Château Neuf) in 1107 to protect the trade route from Damascus to Tyre. After Nūr ad-Din's ousting of Humphrey of Toron from Banias, Hunin was at the front line securing the border defences against the Muslim garrison at Banias.^[48]

Ibn Jubayr, the geographer, traveller and poet from al-Andalus, described Banias:

This city is a frontier fortress of the Muslims. It is small, but has a castle, round which, under the walls flows a stream. This stream flows out from the town by one of the gates, and turns a mill ... The town has broad arable lands in the adjacent plain. Commanding the town is the fortress, still belonging to the Franks, called Hunin, which lies 3 leagues distant from Banias. The lands in the plain belong half to the Franks and half to the Muslims; and there is here the boundary called Hadd al Mukasimah-"the boundary of the dividing." The Muslims and the Franks apportion the crops equally between them, and their cattle mingle freely without fear of any being stolen.”

After the death of Nūr ad-Din in May 1174, King Amalric I of Jerusalem led the crusader forces in a siege of Banias. The Governor of Damascus allied himself with the crusaders and released all his Frankish prisoners. With the death of Amalric I in July 1174, the crusader border became unstable. In 1177, King Baldwin IV of Jerusalem laid siege to Banias and again the crusader forces withdrew after receiving tribute from Samsan al-Din Ajuk, the Governor of Banias.^[49]

In 1179, Saladin took personal control of the forces of Banias and created a protective screen across the Hula through Tell al-Qadi.^[49] In 1187, Saladin's son al-Afdal was able to send a force of 7,000 horsemen from Banias, that participated in the Battle of Cresson and the Battle of Hattin.^[50][51] By the end of Saladin's life, Banias was in the territory of al-Afdal, Emir of Damascus, and in the Iqta' of Hussam al-Din Bishara.^[52]

In 1200, Sultan al-Adil I sent Fakhr al-Din Jaharkas to seize Kŭl’at es-Subeibeh, a fortress located on a high hill above Banias, from Hussam al-Din, and reaffirmed Jaharkas as the holder of the iqta' in 1202.^[53] A strong earthquake the same year had its epicenter close to Banias, and the city was partially destroyed. Jaharkas rebuilt the burj (fortress tower).^[54] He took control of other properties - Tibnin, Hunin, Beaufort and Tyron. After his death, these lands were in the hands of Sarim ad-Din Khutluba. Shortly after the start of the Fifth Crusade, Banias was raided by the Franks for three days.^[55] Later, Al-Mu'azzam Isa, son of al-Adil, started to dismantle fortifications across Palestine, in order to deny their protection should the Crusaders gain them, by fight or by land exchange. So, in March 1219, Khutluba was forced to relinquish Banias and destroy its fortress.^[56][54]

At Banias or Caesaria Philippi, 1891

Probably at the same time, the city was passed to Al-Mu'azzam's brother, al-'Aziz 'Uthman. For a while it was ruled as the hereditary principality of the dynast and his sons. The fourth prince, al-Sa'id Hasan, surrendered it to As-Salih Ayyub in 1247. He later tried to retake the land, at the time of An-Nasir Yusuf, but was imprisoned.

In 1252 Banias was attacked by the forces of the Seventh Crusade and took it, but they were driven out by the garrison of Subeiba.

Al-Sa'id Hasan of Banias, released by Hulegu during the Mongol invasion of Syria, allied with him, and took part in the Battle of Ain Jalut.

 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

I thought it was obvious. I speak more Arabic than Hebrew, so much so that I accidentally referred to Hebrew as Yiddish(the way Syrians in Damascus would), insulting a  Jewish member of our forums in the process. I have said repeatedly and I mean it, that if it wasn't so dangerous in Syria I would retire there. Baniyas is a beautiful place of ancient histories and flora and fauna that I would love to be around for the rest of my days. Hopefully before I am too old peace and democracy will come to the people of Syria and I can go back. My buddy had an area of specialty in Turkey and he retired there marrying a local he fell in love with over the years. He has recently passed of heart issues, after four or five full on heart attacks. He enjoyed a Villa on the Aegean, an olive farm, a city center Condo type place when he passed away, inheriting two of the three from his inlaws over time. Now his widow, her daughter, niece and mother along with an old uncle have the properties. I always wanted to get a small acreage near the burial place of Pan. Yeah, there are celtic ruins in Syria, wild eh? THis spot is amazing: a huge ancient cave that runs very deep into the hillside..and at the back of it is a waterfall where an underground river passed through the cave. In ancient times sacrafices were taken into the cave and thrown into the raging waters...to the onlookers outside where the underground river comes to the surface and makes its way to the Mediteranean Sea... the waters would run red with the blood of the sacrificial humans, or goats or what have you... and appear to be a sign from the gods.... nowadays no red waters, haha, but there is so much history there I am drawn to it. 

Anywho, despite all that Israel must defend itself or perish, and as we the west propped up Israel in our grandparents generation, we owe it to them to ensure they can defend themselves. To not do that would essentially be an end game to ensure another holocaust and that can not happen on Nato's watch. 

 

there's a couple of big picture reasons I see the need for the Saudi's in all this. They have deep pockets, aren't the "west" and might be viewed as a viable interim governing organization to rebuild Gaza into something like you're describing, a place where people can actually have a real life. Israel seems to be able to work with MBS too. 

 

But if we're going to continue down this my fathers fathers brother stuff, then I see nothing changing at all. We'll all be back here some day discussing the next attack, etc. 

 

 

[Gnarcore]

12 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

It took more than a generation for Germans & Japanese being disarmed for the world to feel comfortable?

 

Also reinvesting in their economies and way of life. 

Well Germany did fight..... the world...twice in 30 years...   
 

Reminds me of the late great Norm MacDonald...
 

 

[Optimist Prime]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

there's a couple of big picture reasons I see the need for the Saudi's in all this. They have deep pockets, aren't the "west" and might be viewed as a viable interim governing organization to rebuild Gaza into something like you're describing, a place where people can actually have a real life. Israel seems to be able to work with MBS too. 

 

But if we're going to continue down this my fathers fathers brother stuff, then I see nothing changing at all. We'll all be back here some day discussing the next attack, etc. 

 

 

Hamas learned though, even if they somehow survive as an entity after the peace arrives, that the brothers they were expecting to rise up with them will not do so now or next time. That could be significant for peace in the region. Outside Iran, the puppeteer of Hezbollah and Hamas: not even the Lebanese Government wants to tangle with Israel, nor Syria which is too busy fighting off three factions and the Turks internally while losing half its land mass to the Kurds and their allies. So with less dance partners in the future, and more Arabic or Muslim nations normalizing relations with Israel, the future could be bright. Still will be lunatic fringe folks fighting to the death to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, but they will doing it alone and 'to the death' being the operative word. The Cathars resisted Catholics to the death..and they got their wish. None of them are around anymore. So i see Jihad slowly becoming a fringe position wherein the Jihadi doesn't live long and only inflicts suffering an a small few as they go out with a bang. For those who choose peace, prosperity will quickly follow. At least that is my train of thought on it. 

[Gnarcore]

11 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I thought it was obvious. I speak more Arabic than Hebrew, so much so that I accidentally referred to Hebrew as Yiddish. 

Found a pic:

Here I always thought Yiddish was a slang dialect branched off of Hebrew. I guess it was using the same alphabet a lot of the time that made me think that.. Made me read the wiki on Yiddish so thanks for that