Hamas attacking Israel

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Gnarcore]

Just now, Optimist Prime said:

Hamas learned though, even if they somehow survive as an entity after the peace arrives, that the brothers they were expecting to rise up with them will not do so now or next time. That could be significant for peace in the region. Outside Iran, the puppeteer of Hezbollah and Hamas: not even the Lebanese Government wants to tangle with Israel, nor Syria which is too busy fighting off three factions and the Turks internally while losing half its land mass to the Kurds and their allies. So with less dance partners in the future, and more Arabic or Muslim nations normalizing relations with Israel, the future could be bright. Still will be lunatic fringe folks fighting to the death to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, but they will doing it alone and 'to the death' being the operative word. The Cathars resisted Catholics to the death..and they got their wish. None of them are around anymore. So i see Jihad slowly becoming a fringe position wherein the Jihadi doesn't live long and only inflicts suffering an a small few as they go out with a bang. For those who choose peace, prosperity will quickly follow. At least that is my train of thought on it. 

Good point. As for jihad and it being rooted in the Quran with the super religious whackos it will always be there. But to see it reduced to an even more fringe position may very well happen. Which when looking at the faith as whole I would think it overall already being fringe..just way stronger in certain regions. 

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Hamas learned though, even if they somehow survive as an entity after the peace arrives, that the brothers they were expecting to rise up with them will not do so now or next time. That could be significant for peace in the region. Outside Iran, the puppeteer of Hezbollah and Hamas: not even the Lebanese Government wants to tangle with Israel, nor Syria which is too busy fighting off three factions and the Turks internally while losing half its land mass to the Kurds and their allies. So with less dance partners in the future, and more Arabic or Muslim nations normalizing relations with Israel, the future could be bright. Still will be lunatic fringe folks fighting to the death to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, but they will doing it alone and 'to the death' being the operative word. The Cathars resisted Catholics to the death..and they got their wish. None of them are around anymore. So i see Jihad slowly becoming a fringe position wherein the Jihadi doesn't live long and only inflicts suffering an a small few as they go out with a bang. For those who choose peace, prosperity will quickly follow. At least that is my train of thought on it. 

 

I sure hope you are correct. I'm still waiting for the news of Irans nuclear facilities being taken out... maybe Nov 6th?

[Gnarcore]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

I sure hope you are correct. I'm still waiting for the news of Irans nuclear facilities being taken out... maybe Nov 6th?

I was watching some discussion on this with former high end military operatives. They questioned just how much of an impact Israel can have on it with their current arsenal. That shit is dug in DEEP.  Now if the US provided the ordinance required...

[Bob Long]

Just now, Gnarcore said:

I was watching some discussion on this with former high end military operatives. They questioned just how much of an impact Israel can have on it with their current arsenal. That shit is dug in DEEP.  Now if the US provided the ordinance required...

 

US will have to be involved for sure. I suspect they know exactly where the right targets are. 

 

I don't have any idea how big some of those bunker bombs are now, but I think we're going to find out. 

[Optimist Prime]

25 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I sure hope you are correct. I'm still waiting for the news of Irans nuclear facilities being taken out... maybe Nov 6th?

Were it me, I would strike every radar station in Iran over a days long air campaign. Then carpet bomb the couple of enrichment sites with the biggest berthas you ever saw perhaps even while using similar strikes as took out that Hamas leader in Tehran to hit as many of the senior Iranian leaders and IRGC commanders as possible. Make it a quick long weekend of knockout blows.

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Bob Long]

46 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Were it me, I would strike every radar station in Iran over a days long air campaign. Then carpet bomb the couple of enrichment sites with the biggest berthas you ever saw perhaps even while using similar strikes as took out that Hamas leader in Tehran to hit as many of the senior Iranian leaders and IRGC commanders as possible. Make it a quick long weekend of knockout blows.

 

Would any ME country, other than some of Lebanon, be upset by this?

 

[Optimist Prime]

17 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Would any ME country, other than some of Lebanon, be upset by this?

 

OH heck yeah. lmao... i am sure it will be much much less than what I wrote. 
I am just leaning into the long game where If Iran Gets  A Nuke: they will use it on Israel, guaranteed, so they must not get one. 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

OH heck yeah. lmao... i am sure it will be much much less than what I wrote. 
I am just leaning into the long game where If Iran Gets  A Nuke: they will use it on Israel, guaranteed, so they must not get one. 

 

You don't think theyd all breathe a little easier behind the scenes? 

 

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Gnarcore said:

I agree that that would be in their best interests and would love to see a day when it happens. But we live in the real world with people. I just don't see it happening until something radical happens for humanity as a whole such as cold fusion free energy and us having a Star Trek like existence where people work for their passion and not survival. But if a day happens where they're not penned into essentially apartheid light and have a quality of life similar we MAY see it...may. Sadly the scope of the retaliation for Oct 7th will not be forgotten and very difficult to move on from. 

For fucks sake how often has Holocaust been referenced in all this and it has been 80+ years and I understand that. When your people are being exterminated with the aim to wipe you out you don't tend to move on from it. And just to add I am not comparing the Holocaust and this or calling it genocide but those living through it well they may feel that way. 

 

Sorry, but I don't see us continuing to kill Germans. Moreover, there's a growing Jewish community in Germany. Which actually proves that if you want to have peace - you can.

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, Gnarcore said:

Here I always thought Yiddish was a slang dialect branched off of Hebrew. I guess it was using the same alphabet a lot of the time that made me think that.. Made me read the wiki on Yiddish so thanks for that

 

Yeah, Yiddish is actually a lot more German than anything. My Mom never learned Yiddish but she was German language teacher and she could understand most of Yiddish my grandma spoke.

 

At the same time, Hebrew is pretty close to Arabic in many aspects. Also, Hebrew is very mathematical language, with certain rules on word-making, so even if you don't know the exact word but apply the common rules the main 3 letter root, you most likely will get a correct word. Learned Hebrew in 3 months and was fluent in 6 (obviously, living in the environment).

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I thought it was obvious. I speak more Arabic than Hebrew, so much so that I accidentally referred to Hebrew as Yiddish(the way Syrians in Damascus would), insulting a  Jewish member of our forums in the process.

 

 

Did you mean me or someone else? If you meant me - I don't remember being insulted and mixing up Hebrew and Yiddish would never insult me . HaKol Beseder, habibi!  

[Taxi]

8 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

I specifically stated that Muslims, Christians and Jews living together in relative peace in the Ottoman Empire up until WW1.

 

The Armenian genocide happened during WW1 did it not.

Same with the Kurds.

Same with the Greeks.

 

The Turks deny them too ?

 

Are you suggesting I have denied these events when I haven't even mentioned them ?

 

Typical taxi, trying to make false claims. 

 

I don't deny historical events that are well documented and took place.

Unlike you.

 

You're being a bit sneaky with the date. You stated up until WWI and then blamed the West. The West didn't have control until after WWI, when it was dismantled. 

 

Either way, life under Muslim rule was not good for Jews:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

 

I guess if you call the minority group being subdued and massacred "relative peace", you are correct.

 

Some highlights:

Quote

Throughout the 1860s, the Jews of Libya were subjected to what Gilbert calls punitive taxation. In 1864, around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fezin Morocco. In 1869, 18 Jews were killed in Tunis, and an Arab mob looted Jewish homes and stores, and burned synagogues, on Jerba Island. In 1875, 20 Jews were killed by a mob in Demnat, Morocco; elsewhere in Morocco, Jews were attacked and killed in the streets in broad daylight. In 1891, the leading Muslims in Jerusalem asked the Ottoman authorities in Constantinople to prohibit the entry of Jews arriving from Russia.^[45] In 1867, 1870, and 1897, synagogues were ransacked and Jews were murdered in Tripolitania.^[55][56]

An important instance of anti-Semitism around this time was the Damascus affair, in which many Jews in Damascus (which was then under the leadership of Muhammad Ali of Egypt) were arrested after being accused of murdering the Christian Father Thomas and his servant in an instance of blood libel. While the authorities under Sharif Pasha, Egyptian governor of Damascus, tortured the accused until they confessed to the crime, and killed two Jews who refused to confess, prominent European Jews such as Adolphe Crémieux demanded the release of the condemned.^[57]

Benny Morris writes that one symbol of Jewish degradation was the phenomenon of stone-throwing at Jews by Muslim children. Morris quotes a 19th-century traveler:

I have seen a little fellow of six years old, with a troop of fat toddlers of only three and four, teaching [them] to throw stones at a Jew, and one little urchin would, with the greatest coolness, waddle up to the man and literally spit upon his Jewish gaberdine. To all this the Jew is obliged to submit; it would be more than his life was worth to offer to strike a Mohammedan.^[58]

 

Gee I wonder why Jews would choose to rule over themselves, when they can willingly go back to Dhimi status.

 

[Gnarcore]

22 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Sorry, but I don't see us continuing to kill Germans. Moreover, there's a growing Jewish community in Germany. Which actually proves that if you want to have peace - you can.

Sorry but that wasn't my point at all. I meant Hamas/Palestinians might carry a grudge. Brought up the Holocaust as it still is at the forefront of the minds of people. As it should be. That the fallout of this war might not go away soon in their minds. 

EDIT: I believe that as far as aggression outside their borders Israel goes would just continue to be well armed and prepared but if left alone they'd leave well enough alone too. 

Edited Tuesday at 07:51 PM by Gnarcore

[Alflives]

6 hours ago, Gnarcore said:

I think at this point there will be another attack regardless even be it decades down road. They have just killed too many people and obliterated a region for there not to be. Those who survive will have the next generation of hatred buried deep and running strong from all this on top of existing feelings that were already strong. Israel was dammed if they do and dammed if they don't in this situation but it is A LOT of death. 

EDIT: Say my whole family was killed but me...I am probably going to at least think about it. 

How many Japanese people died in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? So many German people died when their cities were crumbled in WWII. Yet those countries people are allies with those who bombed them. And the number of civilian deaths were a lot more too. 
People can overcome hatred if the adults in children’s’ lives don’t teach it. The crazies need to be exterminated. The good people left need to accept the help provided to rebuild and not teach hatred to their children. 

[Ilunga]

3 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

You're being a bit sneaky with the date. You stated up until WWI and then blamed the West. The West didn't have control until after WWI, when it was dismantled. 

 

Either way, life under Muslim rule was not good for Jews:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

 

I guess if you call the minority group being subdued and massacred "relative peace", you are correct.

 

Some highlights:

 

Gee I wonder why Jews would choose to rule over themselves, when they can willingly go back to Dhimi status.

 

 

I stated that Muslims, Christians, Jews and other minorities lived in relative peace under the Ottomans.

 

Do you understand the word relative ?

 

Here I will explain it for you 

 

Considered in relation or in proportion to something else.

 

So as I have stated, and sources I have posted in this thread have stated, in relation to how the Jews were treated in Europe, they were treated far better under Ottoman rule.

 

Did I say it was perfect ?

No I didn't.

I stated they, the Jewish people, had their ups and downs.

 

And you don't seem to have read the source you posted.

 

Among some of the information in the link you posted 

 

" The experience of Jews in the Ottoman Empire is particularly significant because the region " provided a principle place of refuge for Jews driven out of Europe by massacres and persecution"

 

" The Ottoman Empire became a safe haven for Jews from the Iberian Peninsula fleeing persecution "

 

" Even though Jews were placed under special restrictions in the Ottoman Empire, there was still a vibrant Jewish culture in certain regions of the Empire. This was especially true for Sephardic Jews who had large amounts of political and cultural influence in the Ottoman Empire. The Sephardim in the Ottoman Empire had political and cultural influence because they were " perceived as westerners who had extensive contacts with Europe, who knew European languages, and brought new knowledge and technologies. Additionally some Sephardic Jews were " prominent merchants with European markets " who were even regarded as " potential allies, diplomats and spies " during times of war against the Christians. Throughout the 16th century the Ottoman Empire saw an increased Jewish influence on the economy and commerce. There is no doubt among historians that Spanish Jews contributed significantly to the development of the capital of the Ottoman Empire in the 16th century. 

 

Although many Jews had large amounts of political and cultural capital, the Jewish community in the Ottoman Empire was decentralized for most of the regions history. This changed however when the Sultan appointed a Hakham-Bashi or chief rabbi to exercise jurisdiction in the community regarding issues of marriage, divorce, engagement, and inheritance in addition to delivering " his community's share if the taxes and keeping order " in the community. 

 

" In addition to the already existent Jewish population in the lands the Ottomans conquered, many more Jews were given refuge after the expulsion of Jews from Spain under the reign of Beyezid 11 "

 

Thanks for posting more information that backed up what I asserted.

 

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

Sorry, but I don't see us continuing to kill Germans. Moreover, there's a growing Jewish community in Germany. Which actually proves that if you want to have peace - you can.

 

You are indeed correct.

The Jewish people don't want to kill German's.

Probably one of the major reasons is  because  the Jewish/Isreali people were given a state of their own. 

 

So how about Isreal doing what the majority of the world wants, get out of the occupied territories and allowing the Palestinians a state of their own.

 

Their is a chance that the Palestinians won't want to kill Jew/Israelis.

 

Also stop killing Palestinians, which has been going on for decades, and they might stop killing Jews/Isrealis.

[Ilunga]

8 hours ago, JIAHN said:

Ok, this is not an indictment towards Muslims, Jews, or Christians

 

This is an indictment towards those men in history who have incited hate towards the common folk of these 3 religious sects

 

Let's first off, start by saying, the Old Testament, the new Testament, and the Qur'an, do not speak vile of each other

 

But! Later teachings, do segregate each other, and in fact Muhammad spoke more and more about the differences, and how they were to be treated

 

https://www.alislam.org/question/islam-view-about-jews/         (This is a quick and short description of how the Qur'an addresses Jews)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad's_views_on_Jews       ( This is how and why their relationships broke down)

 

Now, the later, is really how Both Jew and Muslim clergy, demanded acceptance from each other, and how each moved away from acceptance of each other. (I am paraphrasing for time), but really it was men, as far back as Muhammad and His Jewish counter parts, that started to be more militant towards each other, in their teachings.

 

I find it funny, as a non believer of both teachings, how both the Old Testament and the Qur'an have many of the same, prophets, in them, and that there was peace, between them at first.........I find it funny how men, as far back as Muhammad, intentionally began separating themselves from each other, or parts of each other.

 

I find it ironic, that as time has passed on, that both teachings, have moved farther and farther away, from the text, by (again) men!

 

(Please note* I use only the name "Muhannad" as a time indicator, and not the primer, as he was only one of the many actors that seeked to further divide the two religions.

 

that was the start.........that is where this all began, and even then, men of both religions began to push a negative agenda............

 

Fast forward to today, and we have a multitude of bad actors over the last 100 years, until today, it is such a mess, that God himself, will need to step in and correct the mess "MAN" has made!

 

Now, many will disagree with my next statement, but all prophets were men, and IMHO, that include Jesus, and Muhammad, and all in someway, contributed to the separation of Middle East religions. Today, the men of power, which includes, Iran, Syria, Israel, USA, Russia, and others seek to control and influence common people, instilling hate, and fundamental disagreements.

 

@Ilunga All these players are at fault, as well as many of the ancient teachers. You have asked many on here, what would they do, if this type of war was brought to our doorstep. I have no problem answering you.

 

I would probably try and kill, those that wanted to kill or control me. But, at some point, when I had seen that the war was futile, and our people were being decimated, I would encourage, standing down and take what I was given. Just like a beaten dog! IMO, that is where I would moved against those that fought to continue the war.........because I would fight until I gave up, I would understand those that did not, but in the end, when my family was in danger at every corner of the planet, I would kill those that, continued the fight, knowing the bombing would stop, then shortly there after. Not  to mention that more order and rebuilding would start.

 

IMHO, this is what Israel is hoping for, and why they continue...............It is what I would do, at this point!

 

But as a man, who lives in Canada, and has no skin in the game, and loves his fellow man.............I cry for the common Israeli and common Muslim

 

 

 

At this stage of my life, I wouldn't kill anyone for any reason except in an ultimate act of defence, of someone I love, their life. 

 

I would be like the people I post about.

People who advocate for peace.

 

I would do what I usually do in my life here in Australia, random acts of kindness.

In this case if I was a Palestinian, I would be kind to an Israeli, give him a bunch of my flowers, if I was a flower grower in Palestine as I am here. 

 

The Palestinians aren't being given anything.

For decades it has Isreal has been working against a two state solution.

That's why they supported Hamas' in the first place.

Divide and conquer.

 

 

" For years Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now its blown up in our faces. "

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

 

You do have skin in this game. 

You are one of over 8 billion human beings who you share this planet with.

The planet that is home to all of us.

[JIAHN]

4 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

At this stage of my life, I wouldn't kill anyone for any reason except in an ultimate act of defence, of someone I love, their life. 

 

I would be like the people I post about.

People who advocate for peace.

 

I would do what I usually do in my life here in Australia, random acts of kindness.

In this case if I was a Palestinian, I would be kind to an Israeli, give him a bunch of my flowers, if I was a flower grower in Palestine as I am here. 

 

The Palestinians aren't being given anything.

For decades it has Isreal has been working against a two state solution.

That's why they supported Hamas' in the first place.

Divide and conquer.

 

 

" For years Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now its blown up in our faces. "

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

 

 

You do have skin in this game. 

You are one of over 8 billion human beings who you share this planet with.

The planet that is home to all of us.

 

I agree with you to a point......

 

My problem is people are way to married to "this is my land" and less married to "harmony"

 

IMO, it does not matter who administrates the land, what matters is how they are treated

 

And the Palestinian's should be treated better by the Israeli's

 

But until there is peace, that sadly, does not stand a chance...................

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, JIAHN said:

 

I agree with you to a point......

 

My problem is people are way to married to "this is my land" and less married to "harmony"

 

IMO, it does not matter who administrates the land, what matters is how they are treated

 

And the Palestinian's should be treated better by the Israeli's

 

But until there is peace, that sadly, does not stand a chance...................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

" Black fella, white fella 

It doesn't matter what your colour

As long as your a real fella 

As long as you are a true fella 

All the people of different races 

With different lives in different places

It doesn't matter which religion 

It's all the same when the ship is sinking 

We need more brothers if we're to make it 

We need more sisters if we're to save it "

 

[JIAHN]

40 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

" Black fella, white fella 

It doesn't matter what your colour

As long as your a real fella 

As long as you are a true fella 

All the people of different races 

With different lives in different places

It doesn't matter which religion 

It's all the same when the ship is sinking 

We need more brothers if we're to make it 

We need more sisters if we're to save it "

 

 

Yes, the worst thing man ever did was name countries and religions...........it separated us all

 

It is bad enough we all have different colored skin..................I know it should not matter, but it does to some.....

 

Quite a shame, really!

[Alflives]

53 minutes ago, JIAHN said:

 

Yes, the worst thing man ever did was name countries and religions...........it separated us all

 

It is bad enough we all have different colored skin..................I know it should not matter, but it does to some.....

 

Quite a shame, really!

Isn’t our western culture pretty good? Isn’t it based on a Judeo-Christian ethic? 
Maybe it’s not religion but the crazies who use Islam to promote hatred and violence that’s the problem? The crazies who use Islam to teach hate need to be eliminated. Then the good people of Islam can teach the children to be peaceful and forgiving, like Christianity teaches. 

[Ilunga]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Isn’t our western culture pretty good? Isn’t it based on a Judeo-Christian ethic? 
Maybe it’s not religion but the crazies who use Islam to promote hatred and violence that’s the problem? The crazies who use Islam to teach hate need to be eliminated. Then the good people of Islam can teach the children to be peaceful and forgiving, like Christianity teaches. 

 

I suggest you watch this BBC documentary series.

It charts the Journey of civilization.

From the East, Muslim cultures, to the west, Christian cultures.

 

 

 

 

[Alflives]

Just now, Ilunga said:

 

I suggest you watch this BBC documentary series.

It charts the Journey of civilization.

From the East, Muslim cultures, to the west, Christian cultures.

 

 

 

 

No thanks. Alf knows it’s the crazies of Islam who are teaching their children to hate who are the problem. Lots of good people of Islam who will lead the people of their faith to peace and prosperity. The bad ones will be exterminated.