Hamas attacking Israel

[Ilunga]

9 minutes ago, JIAHN said:

@Warhippy @Bob Long @RomanPer @Ilunga @bolt @Canuck Surfer @Optimist Prime @RupertKBD

 

Hi Guys

 

Without naming who is doing what in the Israeli/Hamas war

 

Can anyone name me a war in the past 200 + years, where civilians were not bombed/shot/ raped/tortured

 

I do mean this as a defense........but merely, asking a question, I can not answer

 

Because IMO, I can not think of one........................Honestly!

 

Anyone else want to jump in? Be my guest!

 

Of course there isn't.

 

However as another poster and myself have noted, we now have a rules based world order.

 

Under those rules you can't target civilians.

You can't use them as human shields.

You can't target Journalists.

You can't target aid workers.

 

There is evidence that Hamas has done some of these things.

 

I have presented evidence, that Isreal has done all of these things. 

Like honestly, we all know that both sides have committed war crimes/crimes against humanity in this conflict.

 

The question is, do you believe we should follow the rules based world order ?

 

 

[JIAHN]

12 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Of course there isn't.

 

However as another poster and myself have noted, we now have a rules based world order.

 

Under those rules you can't target civilians.

You can't use them as human shields.

You can't target Journalists.

You can't target aid workers.

 

There is evidence that Hamas has done some of these things.

 

I have presented evidence, that Isreal has done all of these things. 

Like honestly, we all know that both sides have committed war crimes/crimes against humanity in this conflict.

 

The question is, do you believe we should follow the rules based world order ?

 

 

 

"The question is, do you believe we should follow the rules based world order ? "

 

Honestly Ilunga, I honestly do not believe that any country a military, actually does follow of them.

 

as for the word "Target"

 

I am not sure Israel does "Target" them, but rather just does not care, and looks at "Their" greater good! I am just not sure?

 

I do believe, Israel does know there will be civilian damage.......again, I just don't think they care........

 

I would think if there was a Hamas tunnel beside my house, I would probably leave....but that is me!

 

 

Edited yesterday at 03:36 AM by JIAHN

[Taxi]

4 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

This is not a religious based conflict, at least on the Palestinian side.

 

The Palestinians uphold deeds dating back to the Ottoman period. 

They also question the legality of the British and American led UN process which gave a part of their ancestral lands to the Israelis/ Jews to form the state of Israel.

 

Religion was not a factor for either the Palestinians.

Or for the UN in giving the land to the Jews/Isrealis.

 

I believe, as I have stated many times, that the Palestinians should accept that the Isrealis have a right to a homeland in Isreal/Palestine.

I also believe that Israelis should accept that Palestinians have a right to a homeland in Palestine/Isreal.

 

I wish they could get along and form one state.

A state where everyone is treated equally.

 

If you are trying to blame religion for all wars, then you would wrong again.

 

According to the Encyclopaedia of wars, out of 1,763 known historical conflicts, only 121, 6.87% had religion as their primary cause. 

 

Bottom line, humans just like to kill each other for stupid reasons. 

I'm pretty sure Hamas and Hezbollah are motivated by religion. As are the Israeli settlers.

[RomanPer]

1 hour ago, JIAHN said:

@Warhippy @Bob Long @RomanPer @Ilunga @bolt @Canuck Surfer @Optimist Prime @RupertKBD

 

Hi Guys

 

Without naming who is doing what in the Israeli/Hamas war

 

Can anyone name me a war in the past 200 + years, where civilians were not bombed/shot/ raped/tortured

 

I do mean this as a defense........but merely, asking a question, I can not answer

 

Because IMO, I can not think of one........................Honestly!

 

Anyone else want to jump in? Be my guest!

 

None. And the war in Gaza has the lowest percentage of civilian death compared to combatants of all the wars.

[RomanPer]

2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

The Messianic Zionist parties are how influential in the Likud party coalition?   

 

 

 

The author of the video also forgot to mention that we kill Christian babies and use their blood in matza preparation... On a serious note, I don't think the mentioned party will ever get support from the majority of Israelis on these Lebanon settlements (even if such plan does exist). I really hope Ben Gvir and Smotrich get thrown to jail soon (after they are out of government, along with Bibi). They are a minority that is unfortunately driving the coalition due to equal representation system. Hope it will never get implemented in Canada.

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, JIAHN said:

 

"The question is, do you believe we should follow the rules based world order ? "

 

Honestly Ilunga, I honestly do not believe that any country a military, actually does follow of them.

 

as for the word "Target"

 

I am not sure Israel does "Target" them, but rather just does not care, and looks at "Their" greater good! I am just not sure?

 

I do believe, Israel does know there will be civilian damage.......again, I just don't think they care........

 

I would think if there was a Hamas tunnel beside my house, I would probably leave....but that is me!

 

 

 

First off, I forgot to thank you for your courage and honesty when you answered my question, what you do/how would you feel if you were a Palestinian. 

 

Jan, just because most nations do the wrong thing, does that justify it ?

No it doesn't.

 

Watch the video I posted today, it's an Isreali soldier who was interviewed by Chanel 4, stating that the IDF targets civilians.

They block out his identity and use an actor, however it is his exact words.

 

 

I have posted articles from Isreali sources, again whistleblowers in the IDF 

 

" IDF using Gazans to check areas that maybe booby trapped "

 

" Soldiers tell Isreali newspaper that commanders send Palestinian civilians into tunnels and buildings they fear are rigged, claim chief of staff and top brass are aware of practice "

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-idf-using-gazans-to-check-areas-that-may-be-booby-trapped-before-troops-enter/

 

So it's not a matter of they don't care, they actually target civilians, and use them as human shields.

 

This is what the bad guys, Hamas' does.

Not the supposedly " most moral army " on the planet. 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

39 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

None. And the war in Gaza has the lowest percentage of civilian death compared to combatants of all the wars.

 

Credible Source please. 

 

And a source that factors in time, length of war and includes the injured.

[Optimist Prime]

39 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 I really hope Ben Gvir and Smotrich get thrown to jail soon (after they are out of government, along with Bibi). They are a minority that is unfortunately driving the coalition due to equal representation system. Hope it will never get implemented in Canada.

I think you mean Proportional Representstion, and agree on all the other counts. Hopefully they fuck off soon. Pardon my French. I am no BiBi fan.

[RomanPer]

5 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Credible Source please. 

 

And a source that factors in time, length of war and includes the injured.

 

We have different definitions of "credible", so I'm not even going to bother.

[Ilunga]

28 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

We have different definitions of "credible", so I'm not even going to bother.

 

So in another words, you have no evidence to back up your assertion.

 

That's why I provide links, and fact check 

those links.

So I can confidently back up my assertion with factual information. 

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Taxi said:

I'm pretty sure Hamas and Hezbollah are motivated by religion. As are the Israeli settlers.

 

Hamas' is certainly not motivated by religion.

They are a terror group that is fighting for an independent Palestinian state. 

They use " religious tactics " if that is want you want to call Jihad and suicide bombings.

 

Hezbollah's stated objective is to fight what they describe as American and Israeli imperialism.

Their second objective is to gather all Muslims into " ummah " .

Ummah translates to Muslim identity, nation, or religious community.

In western terms a Commonwealth of Muslim believers.

So there is a religious element to their motivation.

 

As for Israeli settlers, that build and live in the illegal settlements, they have several motivations.

Religion is one, the one that motivates most of the Jewish Terrorists that the head of Shin Bet has referred to in the west bank.

There is also an economic dimension, housing is cheaper in the West Bank than it is in Isreal.

 

We all know that Israel was founded in part by a majority of secular Israelis in the beginning

There has never been a true seperation of religion and state in Israel

 

As the decades have gone by, the religious extremists have gained more and more control, so that even though those extremists are in the minority, they call the shots nowadays. 

Pretty sad for you guys.

 

That's one of the very cornerstones of a true democracy.

Seperation of church and state.

[JIAHN]

1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

 

First off, I forgot to thank you for your courage and honesty when you answered my question, what you do/how would you feel if you were a Palestinian. 

Or an Israeli

 

Jan, just because most nations do the wrong thing, does that justify it ?

No it doesn't.

You are right, no it doesn't, but it is the norm, which is why Israel will get away with it.

 

Watch the video I posted today, it's an Isreali soldier who was interviewed by Chanel 4, stating that the IDF targets civilians.

They block out his identity and use an actor, however it is his exact words.

Where I have a problem with the video, is that it is 1 man. He could or could not be a be a humanitarian/pacifist or a number of other things, including a liar or just wrong...or right. He could actually be ill, or have a stress disorder.............we do not know...........we are taking his word for it. (In this report) But why not the person that disputes it? Does he not get equal credibility? Let's just agree, we both wish it was over! That is where we agree. I wish there was another way, I simply do not feel there is one. (Sadly).....it is basically the same as Haitians eat cats and dogs started!

 

 

I have posted articles from Isreali sources, again whistleblowers in the IDF (see above)

 

" IDF using Gazans to check areas that maybe booby trapped " (Are they paying them?) Maybe they are collaborators?) We simply do not know. 

 

" Soldiers tell Isreali newspaper that commanders send Palestinian civilians into tunnels and buildings they fear are rigged, claim chief of staff and top brass are aware of practice " Soldiers or Soldier? 2 or 100?

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-idf-using-gazans-to-check-areas-that-may-be-booby-trapped-before-troops-enter/ (See above)

 

So it's not a matter of they don't care, they actually target civilians, and use them as human shields.

To target civilians they actually have to shoot them deliberately. Or plan to bomb only civilians, with that being the main objective..............I do not believe that is the case.

 

This is what the bad guys, Hamas' does.

I do not think Israel is innocent in this, and there is enough history to show both sides are guilty, but you can not blame one side for winning.....just all the other shit!

 

Not the supposedly " most moral army " on the planet. 

No such thing! Maybe the Ukrainian army.....for now.....maybe????

 

And I still love ya brother!

 

 

 

 

LOL.....I thought I would start this off with a little levity.........You are a big Pain in the A$$ ! LOL

But, in all seriousness, I admire you conviction. I do not always agree with what you say, but you say it with conviction!

And you are never down for the count....you always come back swinging! LOL, Even if extremely politely! 

As a fellow human.....I like ya brother! Even if I hate ya! LOL

My responses will be in your quoted text...way easier! I will hi-light

[Ilunga]

2 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

I think you mean Proportional Representstion, and agree on all the other counts. Hopefully they fuck off soon. Pardon my French. I am no BiBi fan.

 

This particular phase of the conflict has been a boon for Netanyahu.

Before October 7 he was basically a dead man walking politically speaking.

 

Isrealis do want a new PM, however they aren't so keen on elections until this conflict is over and the hostages are returned.

That's the reason why Netanyahu has done everything he can to prolong this conflict.

 

And there will always be an extreme religious element in the Knesset.

There is enough Israelis that think the way they do to elect them into the Knesset.

[Ilunga]

8 minutes ago, JIAHN said:

 

LOL.....I thought I would start this off with a little levity.........You are a big Pain in the A$$ ! LOL

But, in all seriousness, I admire you conviction. I do not always agree with what you say, but you say it with conviction!

And you are never down for the count....you always come back swinging! LOL, Even if extremely politely! 

As a fellow human.....I like ya brother! Even if I hate ya! LOL

My responses will be in your quoted text...way easier! I will hi-light

 

The only thing I truly hate is injustice.

I don't even hate those that cause the injustice, just the injustice itself.

 

I want the Palestinians to have what we have.

A safe place to raise their kids.

Food on the table.

Access to a good education and healthcare.

 

Shit, I want all human beings to have these things. 

 

Back on the old board, I got in a long drawn out argument/debate.

At the end of it another poster commented, Dave is like the Andy Dufresne of CDC, 

he crawled through a river of shit and came out the other side clean.

[JIAHN]

14 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

The only thing I truly hate is injustice.

I don't even hate those that cause the injustice, just the injustice itself.

 

I want the Palestinians to have what we have.

A safe place to raise their kids.

Food on the table.

Access to a good education and healthcare.

 

Shit, I want all human beings to have these things. 

 

Back on the old board, I got in a long drawn out argument/debate.

At the end of it another poster commented, Dave is like the Andy Dufresne of CDC, 

he crawled through a river of shit and came out the other side clean.

 

"I want the Palestinians to have what we have.

A safe place to raise their kids."

 

I wish you have said that you want all Palestinians and Israelis to have what we have...

 

aka "a safe place to raise their kids!"

 

That would have made me feel much better about your comments

 

 

[Ilunga]

23 minutes ago, JIAHN said:

 

"I want the Palestinians to have what we have.

A safe place to raise their kids."

 

I wish you have said that you want all Palestinians and Israelis to have what we have...

 

aka "a safe place to raise their kids!"

 

That would have made me feel much better about your comments

 

 

 

I think you may have missed what I also said in that post you quoted.

 

Shit I want all people to have those things.

 

 

Not just Palestinians and Isrealis.

[Ilunga]

 

Meet two of Time's women of the year.

 

Yael Admin and Reem Hajajreh 

 

People that are working for peace.

 

 

 

 

" The Isreali and Palestinian women calling for peace "

 

https://time.com/collection/women-of-the-year/6691522/yael-admi-reem-hajajreh/

 

 

 

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Short & v much worth a watch for perspective...

 

 

[Taxi]

5 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Short & v much worth a watch for perspective...

 

 

 

And all that military experience Hezbollah gained brutalizing the citizens of Syria was wiped out in a few weeks by Israel. 

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Gnarcore]

12 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

None. And the war in Gaza has the lowest percentage of civilian death compared to combatants of all the wars.

There is a very big variance in reporting on casualties in this conflict. In no way in any of them does it come close to the Falklands War

Yes, I cherry picked what is probably the smallest 'modern' war. 

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, Taxi said:

 

And all that military experience Hezbollah gained brutalizing the citizens of Syria was wiped out in a few weeks by Israel. 

 

Everything is coming full circle?  So many Syrian villages were burned to the ground genocide style.

 

Lebanon wanted no Syrian refugees 7 & 10 years ago?  

*  Wanted no escaping ISIS or other militants in their midst!

 

Today Syrians are highly skeptical of the near 1 Mill Lebanese escaping war with Israel.

*  Do not want anything to do with Hezbollah disguised as refugees!

[RomanPer]

3 hours ago, Gnarcore said:

There is a very big variance in reporting on casualties in this conflict. In no way in any of them does it come close to the Falklands War

Yes, I cherry picked what is probably the smallest 'modern' war. 

 

Sorry, is that even considered a "war"? Wasn't it more like a very quick spanking of the Argentinian military by the Brits?  

[Grocery Stick]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

Sorry, is that even considered a "war"? Wasn't it more like a very quick spanking of the Argentinian military by the Brits?  

Maybe not an all out war, but losses were significant on the British side. 
255 British personnel lost their lives defending the Falklands, of whom 86 were Royal Navy, 124 Army, 27 Royal Marines, six Merchant Navy, four Royal Fleet Auxiliary and eight Hong Kong sailors. Seven ships were also lost to enemy action and nine aircraft shot down.

[Canuck Surfer]

Hmmmm; I prefer a promise to work with Palestinians (not Hamas/Hezbollah) on their nation & rebuilding. But yes surrender.

 

So they have an outlook where they do not have to rely on militants. Importantly this suggests to Israelis a different outlook. Also more likely to do two things;

* Create a different world view perception that you will offer real peace.

* As above, divide a wish for peace from militants

 

Israel should be offering peace; not terrorists.