Hamas attacking Israel

[Gnarcore]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

 

Sorry, is that even considered a "war"? Wasn't it more like a very quick spanking of the Argentinian military by the Brits?  

It went on for 74 days and Argentina did have a few moments. They sunk some ships. Still considered the Falklands War  

[Canuck Surfer]

22 hours ago, Ilunga said:

Hamas' is certainly not motivated by religion.

They are a terror group that is fighting for an independent Palestinian state. 

 

Source? 

 

Or is that just your interpretation.  Do I believe corruption is also a religion for Hamas leaders? Yes; but it is what they breath & teach to exist. Based on religion, they afford in their beliefs, the privilege of rank over all all others. Read their stuff, or listen to Haniyeh in 2023. No way to separate Hamas from Islamic Resistance? None!

 

 

Source Wilson Center;  

 

Hamas is resistance in the religious context of jihad, or a holy struggle and martyrdom. “Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes,” Hamas said in its first statement in the late 1980s.

 

Hamas is an Arabic acronym for the Islamic Resistance Movement. It has called on members of the other two Abrahamic faiths—Judaism and Christianity—to accept Islamic rule in the Middle East. “It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror,” it decreed. Hamas also rejected any prospect of peace or coexistence with the state of Israel. “Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.”

 

Wilson Center on what you may rebuttal as backtracking from this position in 2017;

 

Spoiler

In 2017, a revised Hamas manifesto included three departures from the 1988 charter, former U.S. diplomat Aaron David Miller told The Islamists. First, Hamas accepted the establishment of a Palestinian state separate from Israel —although only provisionally. Its statement on principles and policies said, “Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.” Second, it attempted to distinguish between Jews or Judaism and modern Zionism. Hamas said that its fight was against the “racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist” Zionist project, Israel, but not against Judaism or Jews. The updated platform also lacked some of the anti-Semitic language of the 1988 charter. Third, the document did not reference the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood, from which Hamas was originally an offshoot.

 

After the deadly offensive by Hamas against Israel in October 2023, Ismail Haniyeh, who replaced Mashaal as head of the Hamas political bureau in exile, again invoked religious rhetoric. “Today, the enemy has had a political, military, intelligence, security and moral defeat inflicted upon it, and we shall crown it, with the grace of God, with a crushing defeat that will expel it from our lands, our holy city of al Quds, our al Aqsa mosque, and the release of our prisoners from the jails of the Zionist occupation,” he said. 

 

Hamas Covenant in August 1988;

 

 

Article 1: The Movement's program is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man.

[Ilunga]

57 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Source? 

 

Or is that just your interpretation.  Do I believe corruption is also a religion for Hamas leaders? Yes; but it is what they breath & teach to exist. Based on religion, they afford in their beliefs, the privilege of rank over all all others. Read their stuff, or listen to Haniyeh in 2023. No way to separate Hamas from Islamic Resistance? None!

 

 

Source Wilson Center;  

 

Hamas is resistance in the religious context of jihad, or a holy struggle and martyrdom. “Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes,” Hamas said in its first statement in the late 1980s.

 

Hamas is an Arabic acronym for the Islamic Resistance Movement. It has called on members of the other two Abrahamic faiths—Judaism and Christianity—to accept Islamic rule in the Middle East. “It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror,” it decreed. Hamas also rejected any prospect of peace or coexistence with the state of Israel. “Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.”

 

Wilson Center on what you may rebuttal as backtracking from this position in 2017;

 

  Reveal hidden contents

In 2017, a revised Hamas manifesto included three departures from the 1988 charter, former U.S. diplomat Aaron David Miller told The Islamists. First, Hamas accepted the establishment of a Palestinian state separate from Israel —although only provisionally. Its statement on principles and policies said, “Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.” Second, it attempted to distinguish between Jews or Judaism and modern Zionism. Hamas said that its fight was against the “racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist” Zionist project, Israel, but not against Judaism or Jews. The updated platform also lacked some of the anti-Semitic language of the 1988 charter. Third, the document did not reference the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood, from which Hamas was originally an offshoot.

 

After the deadly offensive by Hamas against Israel in October 2023, Ismail Haniyeh, who replaced Mashaal as head of the Hamas political bureau in exile, again invoked religious rhetoric. “Today, the enemy has had a political, military, intelligence, security and moral defeat inflicted upon it, and we shall crown it, with the grace of God, with a crushing defeat that will expel it from our lands, our holy city of al Quds, our al Aqsa mosque, and the release of our prisoners from the jails of the Zionist occupation,” he said. 

 

Hamas Covenant in August 1988;

 

 

Article 1: The Movement's program is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man.

 

How many do you want.

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67039975

 

It is opposed to the existence of Israel on what is says is Palestinian land.

It wants a STATE based on Islam in its place and across the occupied west bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza. 

 

It has however, accepted a willingness to accept an interim Palestinian STATE in just the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza without renouncing its claim to all of historic Palestine. " 

 

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hamas

 

" Hamas militant Palestinian NATIONALIST movement in the West Bank and Gaza Strip that is dedicated to the establishment of an independent Islamic STATE in historic Palestine. 

 

https://theconversation.com/what-is-hamas-seven-key-questions-answered-215391

 

 

" What Hamas plainly seeks is the establishment of a Palestinian STATE.

 

They are followers of the Islamic religion now without a state.

Their primary aim is a STATE for Palestinians.

[Canuck Surfer]

31 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

How many do you want.

 

None of those decry its belief the land is theirs based on how they interpret religion. The 'interim' state believed temporary already noted; quoted. Then of course they launched after 2017, & I quoted Haniyeh's words from the next day, Oct 7th citing the religious based precedent. Stating it was fully occupied since 1948. The organization was formed to resist other movements move towards peace on behalf of their ideological belief.  Or accept that other cultures could share the land.

 

A pickle is still a pickle. 

 

This is the ultimate jihad, the outcome of which can only be victory or martyrdom. 

 

 

 

 

[Ilunga]

8 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

None of those decry its belief the land is theirs based on how they interpret religion. The 'interim' state believed temporary already noted; quoted. Then of course they launched after 2017, & I quoted Haniyeh's words from the next day, Oct 7th citing the religious based precedent. Stating it was fully occupied since 1948. The organization was formed to resist other movements move towards peace on behalf of their ideological belief.  Or accept that other cultures could share the land.

 

A pickle is still a pickle. 

 

This is the ultimate jihad, the outcome of which can only be victory or martyrdom. 

 

 

 

 

 

So what are they fighting for ?

 

They are fighting for an independent Palestinian state.

 

They are not fighting to be Islamists, they already are Islamists.

 

 

[Ilunga]

@Canuck Surfer

This is how Australian National Security describes Hamas.

 

https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/what-australia-is-doing/terrorist-organisations/listed-terrorist-organisations/hamas#:

 

" Hamas overarching goal is to " liberate Palestine " by establishing an INDEPENDENT PALESTINIAN STATE, comprising Gaza, the West Bank and Isreal.

 

I don't know how you can't grasp this.

 

Again, they are already Islamists.

Nobody, including Isreal is trying to stop them being followers of Islam.

 

What they, the Palestinians don't have is a state of their own.

That's what the terror organisation Hamas is fighting for. 

[Canuck Surfer]

9 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

They are fighting for an independent Palestinian state.

 

They are not fighting for ''A'' state.  

 

Hamas are fighting for a state that supersedes the rights of Jews, in particular. All other cultures, all followers, religions & residents are required to follow their doctrine. Which also has expectations of minorities, forced conversions, women. Not to mention payola towards corruption, nor raising objections. Reminding you that not towing the party line means getting your neck wrung. Literally! This is not ''A'' state for ''their'' people. Its their policy. 

 

Spoiler

If they want a state, IMO, first move is change the policy!

 

If this was a noble cause offering freedom, human rights and opportunity for all in the region; maybe more would have joined the call Oct 7?

[Canuck Surfer]

16 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

I don't know how you can't grasp this.

 

Don't bother.  Just read the Hamas charter & follow whether their actions reflect what they say in it?  Or a liberal biased opinion that matches your opinion writes...

 

Change the policy = hope for freedom!

[Ilunga]

5 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

They are not fighting for ''A'' state.  

 

Hamas are fighting for a state that supersedes the rights of Jews, in particular. All other cultures, all followers, religions & residents are required to follow their doctrine. Which also has expectations of minorities, forced conversions, women. Not to mention payola towards corruption, nor raising objections. Reminding you that not towing the party line means getting your neck wrung. Literally! This is not ''A'' state for ''their'' people. Its their policy. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

If they want a state, IMO, first move is change the policy!

 

If this was a noble cause offering freedom, human rights and opportunity for all in the region; maybe more would have joined the call Oct 7?

 

Jeebus mate, seriously.

 

Where did I ever state they had a noble cause ?

That they are in any way noble ? 

 

Where did I state that any of what you have stated is not true.

 

Stay on point mate.

 

Again, they are not fighting to be Islamists, they already are. 

 

They are fighting for an INDEPENDENT PALESTINIAN STATE.

I have posted articles from half a dozen sources, including the our security service that state this.

They happen to be a religious group.

 

 

[Ilunga]

11 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Don't bother.  Just read the Hamas charter & follow whether their actions reflect what they say in it?  Or a liberal biased opinion that matches your opinion writes...

 

Change the policy = hope for freedom!

 

So my sources are liberal based ?

 

The Australian Government Security Service is liberal based ?

At least one of those sources is listed as least biased. 

 

I will ask you this question.

If the Palestinians had a state of their own, can you guarantee me that they would still be fighting ? 

[Canuck Surfer]

Sky news is often inflammatory benefitting Jewish (and RW in general) views.  There is good information and summary of the Israeli current outlook in this interview.

 

 

[Ilunga]

13 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Sky news is often inflammatory benefitting Jewish (and RW in general) views.  There is good information and summary of the Israeli current outlook in this interview.

 

 

 

The girl, well woman, who is hosting is a friend of mine.

Laura Jayes.

One of her first jobs in the media was working with us in the media department at Mt. Hotham.

Lovely girl, good skier.

I always give her a bit of stick for working at sky news.

[Canuck Surfer]

 

[Boudrias]

4 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

This truth should not surprise anyone. UN workers are implicated across the ME for their support of terrorists.