Hamas attacking Israel

[eeeeeeeeergh]

16 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I agree with Hussain. Isn’t that what our God teaches us?  Forgiveness is the key to everything my brother. 
 

So how do the Palestinians and the Israelis learn how to forgive?  

 

Forgiveness can only begin when oppression ends

 

I wouldn't expect the indigenous peoples of canada to even begin to consider forgiveness until ongoing injustices stopped, and we begun truth and reconciliation

 

I wouldnt have expected south africa to learn forgiveness until apartheid ended. 

 

i expect no different from palestine/israel

 

at this moment, war crimes are being committed against 2 million people. condemnation and swift sanctions are the moral course of action, nothing less. 

 

 

[Sharpshooter]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Not me brother.

As far as I am concerned you are not the worlds police.

 

And I think you missed my point, lot of conflicts that have been going on far a damn sight longer.

A week after this conflict has reignited in a big way all of a sudden you guys send an aircraft carrier ?

 

I often wonder if people actually realise the potential destruction one of those things can cause.

Not just an aircraft carrier, but an aircraft carrier group. 
 

Those other vessels carry so much deadly ordinance on board as well. The Carrier has the jets and is protected by the rest of the Group, including a submarine, typically. 

[Sabrefan1]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

Not me brother.

As far as I am concerned you are not the worlds police.

 

And I think you missed my point, lot of conflicts that have been going on far a damn sight longer.

A week after this conflict has reignited in a big way all of a sudden you guys send an aircraft carrier ?

 

I often wonder if people actually realise the potential destruction one of those things can cause.

 

I said in this thread earlier today that if it was up to me, we'd cede the conflicts in that part of the world to Europe.  They can take over and fund all of the fighting.

 

We're slowly dying as a nation because we are funding this crap year after year and ignoring the needs of our own populace.

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Time heals everything.  But old wounds are still present, even though they may look like they are healed.

 

I am not sure I could be that kind of person either.  I mean if someone slaughtered my family, would I forgive the murderer and shake his hand?  Probably not.  But then I am just like rest of us, we are all no different.  No matter what we believe.

 

War and evil have been present since the beginning of time.  And will probably be here until the end of time...

 

4 billion years to be exact, if we make it that far.

The last decade or so has made me doubt that.

[Sabrefan1]

1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said:

Not just an aircraft carrier, but an aircraft carrier group. 
 

Those other vessels carry so much deadly ordinance on board as well. The Carrier has the jets and is protected by the rest of the Group, including a submarine, typically. 

 

 At least 2 submarines loaded with Trident missiles nowadays if I'm not mistaken.

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

I said in this thread earlier today that if it was up to me, we'd cede the conflicts in that part of the world to Europe.  They can take over and fund all of the fighting.

 

We're slowly dying as a nation because we are funding this crap year after year and ignoring the needs of our own populace.

 

Yes, you bailed out Europe twice, rebuilt it, Marshall Plan, Berlin airlift. 

I could go on....and on. 

 

What I will say about the problems in the middle east, in part they can be attributed to American and British meddling with the politics of the region post WW2 due to their greed for middle east oil.

[Sharpshooter]

Just now, Sabrefan1 said:

 

 At least 2 submarines loaded with Trident missiles nowadays if I'm not mistaken.

Interestingly, the Gerald Ford Strike Group in that region doesn’t have a SSN assigned to it. 
 

Weird. 
 

 

[Sabrefan1]

Just now, Ilunga said:

 

Yes, you bailed out Europe twice, rebuilt it, Marshall Plan, Berlin airlift. 

I could go on....and on. 

 

What I will say about the problems in the middle east, in part they can be attributed to American and British meddling with the politics of the region post WW2 due to their greed for middle east oil.

 

I'm all for not continuing to pay for the Allied mistakes in creating new nations all willy nilly post-WW2.  Let Europe handle the Middle East.  We're slowly transitioning to electric anyways so Europe can keep the ME spigots flowing for the next 3-4 decades until our own domestic production coupled with our Canadian imports are enough to feed our remaining needs.

[Darius]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 

I posted earlier in the thread a few lines from an anti - racist song by a band called TISM from the 90's

 

" The Irish hate the Irish, and it's Arab versus Jew 

Your'e cactus if you Kudish, and by Christ I'm sick of you "

 

This reflects the persecution the Kurds have suffered from Iran, Iraq, Turkey.

Incidents such as the Halabja massacre in 1988.

 

The west/ America has betrayed so many times 

 

https://theintercept.com/2019/10/07/kurds-syria-turkey-trump-betrayal/

 

The hypocrisy of human beings shouldn't surprise someone with the knowledge/ insight you have shown in this thread.

 

 

 

Thanks for the post/link. 

 

I was aware of the plight of the Kurds in the various nations they live, however I didnt realize for how long, and how many times, the Americans betrayed them.

 

Regarding the Americans in the region, in my mind the one image above others that encapsulates their foreign policy in the area is this:

 

 

That is Donald Rumsfeld, Reagan's man, meeting with then "ally" or more like lap-dog, Saddam Hussein in the early 80s.  They backed the Iraqis vs the Iranians in the Iran/Iraq war, turned a blind eye to their chemical weapon use.  The same chemical weapons Hussein used on the Kurds a few years later where thousands were killed.  Of course, as everyone now knows, the US later turned on Hussein when they needed a scapegoat for 9/11 and saw it as an 'in' to overthrow him and take control of his oil resources.   With the same Rumsfeld as Secretary of Defense, the US accused Hussein of possessing Weapons of Mass destruction and used that as the excuse for invasion.  They dismantled his government after invading, and created a shitstorm that still affects the region to this day - including creating power vacuums that were filled with extremist groups (ISIS etc).  They will back you one minute and put the dagger in you the next depending on the objectives/ foreign policy du jour and leave a trail of destruction behind.

 

Dont mean to derail the thread, but this shows how larger powers are constantly positioning themselves using proxy populations to influence and control the region.  IMHO The scope of this particular conflict goes beyond the two parties currently involved - both sides have their sponsors  - with their own motivations - which complicates the situation further.  Poor civilians will end up paying the price.

 

Back to the Kurds: whats interesting is at the end of the Gulf War, a Kurdish uprising managed to confiscate 14(!) tonnes of documents and materials from the Iraqis who, as a result of being trained by the contemporary East German Security Agency( go figure!), meticulously documented all of their actions - including the horrible things they did to the Kurds.  Reading some of the Human Rights reports that summarized some their actions is gut wrenching.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1993/01/03/magazine/iraq-accused-a-case-of-genocide.html

 

 

[Sabrefan1]

9 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Interestingly, the Gerald Ford Strike Group in that region doesn’t have a SSN assigned to it. 
 

Weird.

 

Now I'm curious.  I've got some Googling to do.  I stopped paying close attention to our strike groups years back.

[Sharpshooter]

Vlad, there it is. 

 

I mentioned this a couple/few days ago. 
 

"We have factories producing Kalashnikov assault rifles and their ammunition. We have a Russian license to produce Kalashnikov ammunition in Gaza. There are countries that support us politically. Even Russia sympathizes with us. Even the Russians sent us messages yesterday. They sympathize with us. Russia is happy that America is getting embroiled in the Palestinian war. It eases the pressure on the Russians in Ukraine. One war eases the pressure in another war. So we're not alone on the battlefield," - senior Hamas official Ali Baraka in an interview that aired on Russia Today on October 8th.

[Ilunga]

4 minutes ago, Darius said:

Thanks for the post/link. 

 

I was aware of the plight of the Kurds in the various nations they live, however I didnt realize for how long, and how many times, the Americans betrayed them.

 

Regarding the Americans in the region, in my mind the one image above others that encapsulates their foreign policy in the area is this:

 

 

That is Donald Rumsfeld, Reagan's man, meeting with then "ally" or more like lap-dog, Saddam Hussein in the early 80s.  They backed the Iraqis vs the Iranians in the Iran/Iraq war, turned a blind eye to their chemical weapon use.  The same chemical weapons Hussein used on the Kurds a few years later where thousands were killed.  Of course, as everyone now knows, the US later turned on Hussein when they needed a scapegoat for 9/11 and saw it as an 'in' to overthrow him and take control of his oil resources.   With the same Rumsfeld as Secretary of Defense, the US accused Hussein of possessing Weapons of Mass destruction and used that as the excuse for invasion.  They dismantled his government after invading, and created a shitstorm that still affects the region to this day - including creating power vacuums that were filled with extremist groups (ISIS etc).  They will back you one minute and put the dagger in you the next depending on the objectives/ foreign policy du jour and leave a trail of destruction behind.

 

Dont mean to derail the thread, but this shows how larger powers are constantly positioning themselves using proxy populations to influence and control the region.  IMHO The scope of this particular conflict goes beyond the two parties currently involved - both sides have their sponsors  - with their own motivations - which complicates the situation further.  Poor civilians will end up paying the price.

 

Back to the Kurds: whats interesting is at the end of the Gulf War, a Kurdish uprising managed to confiscate 14(!) tonnes of documents and materials from the Iraqis who, as a result of being trained by the contemporary East German Security Agency( go figure!), meticulously documented all of their actions - including the horrible things they did to the Kurds.  Reading some of the Human Rights reports that summarized some their actions is gut wrenching.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1993/01/03/magazine/iraq-accused-a-case-of-genocide.html

 

 

 

Yep, I am aware of Rummy's history.

A lot of people don't remember that Cheney started off as his lackey before the roles were kinda reversed. 

I am also aware of the US support for Iraq/ Saddam Hussein in that 8 year war against Iran.

[Sharpshooter]

US officials and lawmakers are generally coming to believe that Israel’s failure to predict the explosion of simmering rage from Gaza was primarily due to a lack of imagination, according to conversations with dozens of current and former intelligence, military and congressional officials.

Hamas likely hid the planning of the operation through old-fashioned counterintelligence measures such as conducting planning meetings in person and staying off digital communications whose signals the Israelis can track.

 

But US officials also believe Israel had become complacent about the threat Hamas posed and failed to recognize key indicators that the group was planning for a large-scale operation.

For example, Israeli officials failed to recognize routine Hamas training exercises as a sign that the group was preparing an imminent attack. The militants trained for the onslaught in at least six sites across Gaza, a CNN investigation found, including at one site less than a mile from Israel’s border.

“There were numerous indicators of a change in posture generally by Hamas and then pivoting both in public rhetoric and posture more towards violence and attacks generally,” said one source familiar with US intelligence.  

 

 

CNN

[Ilunga]

6 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

Now I'm curious.  I've got some Googling to do.  I stopped paying close attention to our strike groups years back.

 

Man it's good to have you back brother.

Can't have enough well informed, intelligent members of this community.

[Sharpshooter]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Yep, I am aware of Rummy's history.

A lot of people don't remember that Cheney started off as his lackey before the roles were kinda reversed. 

I am also aware of the US support for Iraq/ Saddam Hussein in that 8 year war against Iran.

Donald ‘Known Knowns’ Rumsfeld. 

[CBH1926]

23 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

I said in this thread earlier today that if it was up to me, we'd cede the conflicts in that part of the world to Europe.  They can take over and fund all of the fighting.

 

We're slowly dying as a nation because we are funding this crap year after year and ignoring the needs of our own populace.

Europeans are even more tribal than the Americans. They couldn’t agree on the color of the sky or fight their way out a wet paper bag. Neglecting their military’s for decades, even the latest war, without U.S pressure or military help Ukraine would lose the war.
 

Although Russians have exaggerated their weapons and military capabilities for years, they still have enough to beat all European countries. I am all in favor of minding our own business and not play the world’s policeman, but unfortunately I don’t see the interventionism stopping any time soon.

[Darius]

1 minute ago, Ilunga said:

 

Yep, I am aware of Rummy's history.

A lot of people don't remember that Cheney started off as his lackey before the roles were kinda reversed. 

I am also aware of the US support for Iraq/ Saddam Hussein in that 8 year war against Iran.

After reading some of your other posts I had no doubt you would be aware of all of it...I saw the article with Kurds and USA and had to vent!

 

[Sharpshooter]

1 minute ago, Darius said:

After reading some of your other posts I had no doubt you would be aware of all of it...I saw the article with Kurds and USA and had to vent!

 

The Kurds were straight up betrayed by the U.S. for geopolitical expediency. 
 

Treacherous doesn’t even begin to define my disgust. 
 

 

[CBH1926]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Yep, I am aware of Rummy's history.

A lot of people don't remember that Cheney started off as his lackey before the roles were kinda reversed. 

I am also aware of the US support for Iraq/ Saddam Hussein in that 8 year war against Iran.

You can also add Rowe, Wolfowitz, Bremer to the list of neocons that got us stuck in Iraq for no good reason.

[Sabrefan1]

2 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

Europeans are even more tribal than the Americans. They couldn’t agree on the color of the sky or fight their way out a wet paper bag. Neglecting their military’s for decades, even the latest war, without U.S pressure or military help Ukraine would lose the war.
 

Although Russians have exaggerated their weapons and military capabilities for years, they still have enough to beat all European countries. I am all in favor of minding our own business and not play the world’s policeman, but unfortunately I don’t see the interventionism stopping any time soon.

 

Russia had to beef up it's forces with Mercs and barely trained prisoners.  I think both the UK and France working together could easily step into America's place and keep the train rolling in Ukraine.

 

Sadly, those 2 aren't historically pals and one has a habit of giving up after it gets it's nose bloodied.

 

I would still rather not be involved in the Ukrainian-Russia war.  If Europe can't control it's own neck of the woods then  they better learn fast and expend the resources to do so.  Let them go into soul crushing debt instead of us.

[Sharpshooter]

4 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

You can also add Rowe, Wolfowitz, Bremer to the list of neocons that got us stuck in Iraq for no good reason.

Add Colin Powell to that list. 
 

 

 

I think we’re getting slightly Off-Topic. 
 

Let’s all correct course. 

[Sabrefan1]

1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said:

Add Colin Powell to that list.

 

Yes and no.  He resented being played for a patsy and made no secret about it until the day he died.   He was very vocal about the fact that he trusted the wrong people and was played for a sucker, chewed up, and spit out.

[CBH1926]

4 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

The Kurds were straight up betrayed by the U.S. for geopolitical expediency. 
 

Treacherous doesn’t even begin to define my disgust. 
 

 

TBH being an ally of the U.S is somewhat risky as sooner or later you might end up on the wrong end of the stick. Sure Canada, Australia, Germany, Japan, South Korea, France etc. are our allies, the only two countries 3 countries that I don’t see betraying are U.K, Israel and Canada (mainly for geographical reasons)

[Sabrefan1]

1 minute ago, CBH1926 said:

Canada (mainly for geographical reasons)

 

Not to mention that we import more oil from Canada than we do from the entire ME combined. 

[Sharpshooter]

10 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

Yes and no.  He resented being played for a patsy and made no secret about it until the day he died.   He was very vocal about the fact that he trusted the wrong people and was played for a sucker, chewed up, and spit out.

Resenting it is one thing. Not doing his due diligence before signing off on using his credibility is another, for me. 
 

YMMV. 

7 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

TBH being an ally of the U.S is somewhat risky as sooner or later you might end up on the wrong end of the stick. Sure Canada, Australia, Germany, Japan, South Korea, France etc. are our allies, the only two countries 3 countries that I don’t see betraying are U.K, Israel and Canada (mainly for geographical reasons)

If push came to shove for water, particularly, I could see the US make a play for it against Canada. 
 

Desperate times, desperate measures, and with the full harsh effects of Climate Change, I reckon all bets are off. 
 

But, I digress. Discussion for another thread