Hamas attacking Israel

[Sabrefan1]

1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said:

Resenting it is one thing. Not doing his due diligence before signing off on using his credibility is another, for me. 
 

YMMV. 

 

If he were still alive, I'd imagine he'd agree with you. 

 

I think that's why he never ran for president when people were clambering for him to.  He had a taste of Washington politics at it's worst and didn't like it.

[Ilunga]

21 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

You can also add Rowe, Wolfowitz, Bremer to the list of neocons that got us stuck in Iraq for no good reason.

 

I remember all those dipsh!ts.

Weapons of mass destruction, John Howard still refuses to admit that conflict he was so ready to involve us in, sowed the seeds for the formation of ISIS at the time.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Ilunga

[Sabrefan1]

4 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

If push came to shove for water, particularly, I could see the US make a play for it against Canada. 

 

Desperate times, desperate measures, and with the full harsh effects of Climate Change, I reckon all bets are off.

 

Nah.  The dopes in the west and southwest are the ones jonsing for water.  We have plenty of it on the East coast.  They'll just have to move their sorry butts back to this coast when they get warm and thirsty.

 

That or invest in a coastline chock full of desalination plants.

[CBH1926]

5 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

Not to mention that we import more oil from Canada than we do from the entire ME combined. 

Every time I ask someone “which country is the number 1 source of our  oil” I always get ME or KSA answer. If Canadian government was smart, they would build their own infrastructure for refining oil instead sending it down here. 
 

[CBH1926]

5 minutes ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

Nah.  The dopes in the west and southwest are the ones jonsing for water.  We have plenty of it on the East coast.  They'll just have to move their sorry butts back to this coast when they get warm and thirsty.

 

That or invest in a coastline chock full of desalination plants.

Same here, I live next to one of the Great Lakes. Goofballs in the west and south need to lay off planting all that grass. Every time I have gone to SOCAL, Nevada and Arizona I am amazed by the lawns they have. Plant some cactuses or that brown shitty shrubbery that grows over there.

[Sabrefan1]

Just now, CBH1926 said:

Same here, I live next to one of the Great Lakes. Goofballs in the west and south need to lay off planting all that grass. Every time I have gone to SOCAL, Nevada and Arizona I am amazed by the lawns they have. Plant some cactuses or that brown shitty shrubbery that grows over there.

 

I lived in Las Vegas/Henderson for a number of years when I was much younger.  Even back then Nevada had been getting warned for quite some time about droughts and the overuse of the imported Colorado River water and the constant overuse of Lake Mead.  They just kept on expanding and pissing away their water supply.  Same with California, Arizona, etc. and their overuse of their water tables and share of the Colorado River water.

 

The West/Southwest got a reprieve last year and earlier this year from all of the rainfall, but that's only a temporary stay of execution.  They need to decide how they are going to get more water and how they plan on reducing what they use.

[Canuck Surfer]

7 hours ago, Provost said:

I certainly didn’t suggest that, and I haven’t seen anyone on here suggest it.

 

Almost universally, it is recognized that the 1967 borders are the framework for peace.  Not even the 1948 borders.

 

People can have absolutely valid arguments as to the level of injustice the creation of Israel in the middle of Palestine.  It was certainly unjust to the Palestinians.  It was done to balance out injustices to Jews.  That doesn’t mean it is really possible to go back and undo it… no more than reconciling with indigenous people here means packing up and going to Europe or wherever folks came from.

 

https://www.un.org/unispal/history2/origins-and-evolution-of-the-palestine-problem/part-i-1917-1947/

 

 

 

 

Regarding why I mentioned? You had this to say as part of a rant;

 

Now imagine it it the 2000’s and you replace Warsaw with Gaza.  The ghetto is about to be obliterated and the world is cheering instead of mobilizing against it.  

 

That is 1940's borders as a comparison. It was your analogy. The exact quote i replied to.

 

I'll take a look at 1967 borders; implications history has to offer about that & the 6 day war.  Not that my opinion matters much.  I am trying to accumulate opinion, and facts that support positions. Thanks for the feedback.

 

10 hours ago, moosehead said:

 

Just because it will not be easy does NOT mean it should not be done immediately.

 

If the world can get involved with peacemaking forces and help financially , i  sure any conflict can be resolved.

A 2 state solution needs to be negotiated.  NOW.    Both sides need to be forced to the table.  Both sides will need to make compromises.  

 

I also call for an independent Palestine state. I would not call it a two state solution? This is a full regional issue, and its amongst the most densely populated, highly secular regions.

 

A fair concern is the rule of law? Which is an issue! You mentioned 4500 Palestinian hostages? I have already condemned noxious behaviour by Israel. I at least believe they have the capacity to police their people. Could be forced by the international community..

 

Who do you get to police Gaza? I personally believe more than a handful of those 4500 are the type that launch rockets & fly powered gliders with sub machine guns. They are not the ma & pa types.

 

I imagine Palestinians do not trust the UN?  

 

Saudi Arabia & Iran are already, effectively, in a vastly larger proxy war in Yemen. Iraq is a disaster, whom Iran was at war with, also Kuwait. Over support of Iraqis... Both have their mitts in Syria. Asaad dont GAF! Egypt has just come out of revolutionary activity in the last decade. I am not even going to look at Turkey, Libya, Tunisia, Azerbaijan & Afghanistan. I speculate among the reasons is bin Salman is looking at peace & recognizing Israel? It needs allies. 

 

Do you ask the UAE, Qatar?  Their happy to make some money in Oil. 

 

This region is full of genocidal, secular spats. They all make deals amongst each other, shoot each other if it suits them? ISIS, ISIL, PLO have all formed & fucked off, would have gladly killed Hamas as well. The PLO did not disappear because 'the people' did not want them. How you stop Hamas from climbing up buildings & launching missiles?      

 

 

[Playoff Beered]

7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The blockade was put into place because Hamas was in power. Even Egypt put up a blockade at the Farah crossing. The blockade would be eliminated the day Hamas is no longer in power. 

 

7 hours ago, Ryan Strome said:

Yeah but Egypt is opening that up to try and get people out.

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

32 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

 

 

 

Solidarity amongst Arab nations right there...

 

[Canuck Surfer]

5 hours ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

 

Forgiveness can only begin when oppression ends

 

I wouldn't expect the indigenous peoples of canada to even begin to consider forgiveness until ongoing injustices stopped, and we begun truth and reconciliation

 

I wouldnt have expected south africa to learn forgiveness until apartheid ended. 

 

i expect no different from palestine/israel

 

at this moment, war crimes are being committed against 2 million people. condemnation and swift sanctions are the moral course of action, nothing less. 

 

 

 

I love this post!

 

Except this last line.  This is not a one side only is guilty conflict. I would, and do expect, Israel as the larger more powerful nation to be showing the first restraint. I am heartbroken that it does not appear to be the case? 

 

Sharpy already posted this twit

 

 

[Canuck Surfer]

Here are parts that are not defensible, restraint should have happened long ago;

 

 

And the opposite side actions not defensible;

 

 

 

 

My message is restraint!

[Canuck Surfer]

Egypt to the rescue, circa 6 years ago...

 

Fish garms to flood the tunnels to Gaza!

 

 

 

[Scottish Canuck 2.0]

Israel demands people leave North Gaza, so naturally it bombs a civilian convoy leaving for the south, killing at least 70.

 

”But IsRAel iS jUsT dEFenDiNg ItSelF!!”

 

Another horrific act that people will jump through hoops to try and justify or excuse.

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

Egypt to the rescue, circa 6 years ago...

 

Fish garms to flood the tunnels to Gaza!

 

 

 

Why do the tunnels exist in the first place? Why would Egypt/Gaza not have a good enough border crossing so people and goods can move freely back and forth?  
 

[Provost]

4 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

 

Regarding why I mentioned? You had this to say as part of a rant;

 

Now imagine it it the 2000’s and you replace Warsaw with Gaza.  The ghetto is about to be obliterated and the world is cheering instead of mobilizing against it.  

 

That is 1940's borders as a comparison. It was your analogy. The exact quote i replied to.

 

I'll take a look at 1967 borders; implications history has to offer about that & the 6 day war.  Not that my opinion matters much.  I am trying to accumulate opinion, and facts that support positions. Thanks for the feedback.

 

 

I also call for an independent Palestine state. I would not call it a two state solution? This is a full regional issue, and its amongst the most densely populated, highly secular regions.

 

A fair concern is the rule of law? Which is an issue! You mentioned 4500 Palestinian hostages? I have already condemned noxious behaviour by Israel. I at least believe they have the capacity to police their people. Could be forced by the international community..

 

Who do you get to police Gaza? I personally believe more than a handful of those 4500 are the type that launch rockets & fly powered gliders with sub machine guns. They are not the ma & pa types.

 

I imagine Palestinians do not trust the UN?  

 

Saudi Arabia & Iran are already, effectively, in a vastly larger proxy war in Yemen. Iraq is a disaster, whom Iran was at war with, also Kuwait. Over support of Iraqis... Both have their mitts in Syria. Asaad dont GAF! Egypt has just come out of revolutionary activity in the last decade. I am not even going to look at Turkey, Libya, Tunisia, Azerbaijan & Afghanistan. I speculate among the reasons is bin Salman is looking at peace & recognizing Israel? It needs allies. 

 

Do you ask the UAE, Qatar?  Their happy to make some money in Oil. 

 

This region is full of genocidal, secular spats. They all make deals amongst each other, shoot each other if it suits them? ISIS, ISIL, PLO have all formed & fucked off, would have gladly killed Hamas as well. The PLO did not disappear because 'the people' did not want them. How you stop Hamas from climbing up buildings & launching missiles?      

 

 

Nowhere did I refer to changing Palestine to 1940’s borders… didn’t reference it and didn’t suggest it.

 

 No idea how you could even infer it from what I posted.

 

The post you quoted was in response to a deeply flawed comparison that suggested Isreal allowing Gaza to have water, electricity, and permitting humanitarian aid in from other countries was a gift that it was fair for them to stop.  That is gross, appalling, and just not true.  They blockade a country, control every scrap of material that the UN and NGO aid groups bring in for humanitarian aid, so not allow any industry, trade, airports, freedom of movement, and routinely blow up any infrastructure that gets built… and then suggest that anything they permit is benevolent kindness.  If someone is punching you in the face, they don’t get to shout how kind they are because they could be kicking you too.
 

That poster used a hypothetical WWII comparison using the UK and Germany… one that made no sense.

 

I simply turned it around and made a much more salient WWII comparison.  Where a people were systematically subjugated and treated as subhumans, then forced into ghettoes… and how they eventually rose up in violence against their oppressor.

[eeeeeeeeergh]

8 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Why do the tunnels exist in the first place? Why would Egypt/Gaza not have a good enough border crossing so people and goods can move freely back and forth?  
 

Israel’s deal with Egypt says that Israel keeps a registry of who crosses the Egypt border, and Israel does not allow goods to move through Rafah. Israel wants to ensure all goods go through Israel’s crossings. 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Northern Ireland & South Africa showed the way to peace (however imperfect, its progress).  

[Provost]

10 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

US officials and lawmakers are generally coming to believe that Israel’s failure to predict the explosion of simmering rage from Gaza was primarily due to a lack of imagination, according to conversations with dozens of current and former intelligence, military and congressional officials.

Hamas likely hid the planning of the operation through old-fashioned counterintelligence measures such as conducting planning meetings in person and staying off digital communications whose signals the Israelis can track.

 

But US officials also believe Israel had become complacent about the threat Hamas posed and failed to recognize key indicators that the group was planning for a large-scale operation.

For example, Israeli officials failed to recognize routine Hamas training exercises as a sign that the group was preparing an imminent attack. The militants trained for the onslaught in at least six sites across Gaza, a CNN investigation found, including at one site less than a mile from Israel’s border.

“There were numerous indicators of a change in posture generally by Hamas and then pivoting both in public rhetoric and posture more towards violence and attacks generally,” said one source familiar with US intelligence.  

 

 

CNN

It is easy to understand how it happened.  
 

Hamas was the bogeyman that Israel has used to decades to scare their own population.  Savage animals will come and kill you in your sleep if you don’t vote us in to keep you safe.  That was literally Netenyahu’s platform as the safety and security party.  To protect against the monsters.

 

The reality, was that it was invented.  Hamas was a paper tiger that never had any real military capability to any way to threaten Israel in any meaningful way.  They didn’t even try.  They weren’t particularly violent in the context of the region, they didn’t use the tactics of Al Queda or ISIL who they literally fought against.

 

Hamas leadership was happy to buy in and support the narrative that they were a threat.  It gave them some standing and power.  When the vast bulk of their actual force is kids throwing rocks, the world believing they were a real organization with real capability.  It served their purposes to play the sham because the Israeli politicians are not the only ones needing to worry about public sentiment and domestic politics.

 

Their capacity was to build and fire makeshift crude rockets, which are largely ineffective.  They are mostly literally welded water pipes powered by sugar and nitrates.  They have often been described, even by Israeli military as a weapon to create psychological harm more than physical.  They would spend years building a stockpile, and during some flare up between the sides they would fire off a mass of them…. With maybe one in a few hundred hitting something and as likely to kill the person setting them off as anyone who happens to be standing where they randomly fall.

 

That was it, that was the pattern.  Of course the Israeli government was complacent and lacked imagination, because they knew that Hamas wasn’t really the grave threat that they used as justification for their domestic policies.

 

Israeli settlements and Kibbutz were built literally right up to the Gaza border and lived there for decades.  That doesn’t happen if there is a force of thousands of monstrous savage terrorists waiting to murder you and eat your babies.  They were literally having a music party rave within earshot of the border when the terrorist attack happened.

 

The plain and simple truth is that they weren’t really afraid of Hamas, and had little reason to be.  It was an impotent group that was virtually all bark and no bite.  Even Netenyahu in the past few months has been publicly talking about how the Palestinian movement is done and irrelevant. Just a check mark other Arab states had to do to symbolically complain about treatment of Palestinians, but didn’t really care about.

 

He was right, it was true.  No one cared about the future of Palestinians other than Palestinians.

 

What the Israeli government didn’t expect was for Hamas to actually become the bogeyman that the Israelis always pretended they were.  There was no reason to. They had never done anything like it in the decades of the conflict and shown no inclination to.  Hezbollah was the actual threat because they did actually have some military capability and weren’t already beaten.

 

Hamas managed to scrounge up enough resources to make an unheard of excursion into Israeli settlements near their border.  It was a makeshift attack with poor weaponry and little actual

capability in terms of force.  It was some motorbikes, jeeps, few paragliders, and an assortment of light weapons like AK47s.  Something a single Israeli military unit of cooks and transport drivers could swap away like a fly in actual combat.   An attack that could have been easily repelled by even to

token bit of Israeli preparation or military force.  That was the sum

total of force that Hamas could muster after lengthy preparations and planning.

 

It was wildly successful from terrorist  objectives because it was so unexpected.  Israelis weren’t scared of Hamas because there was no reason to be.  Civilian families could live for generations and music festivals could take place right up against the border wall because the threat from Hamas for decades was just largely invented and not real.

 

That is the failure of the Israeli government.  They were secure in the knowledge that their invented narrative and propaganda was made up.  It never occurred to them that Hamas had the capability or intention of actually becoming the invented bogeyman.

 

We will almost certainly find out in the coming days that an outside group was training Hamas fighters, and probably participated in the attack themselves to

support them.   It was so far out of the tactics or capability that Hamas has shown for decades that it is unlikely they could have pulled it off themselves.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Provost

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

Israel’s deal with Egypt says that Israel keeps a registry of who crosses the Egypt border, and Israel does not allow goods to move through Rafah. Israel wants to ensure all goods go through Israel’s crossings. 

Still doesn’t explain why these tunnels are used. unless it’s bad stuff being smuggled. Plus, why does Egypt not want the tunnels? 

[bishopshodan]

I like Bill but last night I found him a little off...

 

It was the way he painted the Palastinian people...felt like he was saying, in a way, they are all Hamas. There was also a theme that the only support for Palastine was from the left  (though i think they meant radical, educated support). I have found on this site that the opinions on the conflict span the political spectrum... 

Maher rejects media's Israel-Hamas equivalency: Israelis 'always had the moral high ground and they still do'

https://www.foxnews.com/media/maher-rejects-medias-israel-hamas-equivalency-israelis-always-had-moral-high-ground

 

"It bothers me – the moral equivalency that goes on in the American media," Maher said. "I don't think Israelis would ever purposely kill babies. I think they have killed babies. That's collateral damage, which is another horrible thing, but that's part of war. I think there's a very different than – difference between rejoicing when you kill civilians and the Israelis regret when they kill civilians."

The HBO star then railed against the "American left" for staunchly aligning itself with people whose values differ than the ones the U.S. and Israel share. 

"Religious tolerance – that doesn't exist in Gaza. You're either a Muslim or an infidel and you better be a Muslim," Maher said. "Female freedom, free and fair elections, free speech, gay rights – I see these ‘Queers for Palestine.'"

"Did you hear their sister organization, Blacks for the KKK?" Kirchick quipped. "By the way, I'm a gay man, I've lived in Berlin. This is a level of masochism that even I cannot comprehend."

"The fact that, you know, these people think that this is where they should be aligned with, that these are the values that you support?" Maher complained. 

[Bob Long]

13 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

I like Bill but last night I found him a little off...

 

It was the way he painted the Palastinian people...felt like he was saying, in a way, they are all Hamas. There was also a theme that the only support for Palastine was from the left  (though i think they meant radical, educated support). I have found on this site that the opinions on the conflict span the political spectrum... 

Maher rejects media's Israel-Hamas equivalency: Israelis 'always had the moral high ground and they still do'

https://www.foxnews.com/media/maher-rejects-medias-israel-hamas-equivalency-israelis-always-had-moral-high-ground

 

"It bothers me – the moral equivalency that goes on in the American media," Maher said. "I don't think Israelis would ever purposely kill babies. I think they have killed babies. That's collateral damage, which is another horrible thing, but that's part of war. I think there's a very different than – difference between rejoicing when you kill civilians and the Israelis regret when they kill civilians."

The HBO star then railed against the "American left" for staunchly aligning itself with people whose values differ than the ones the U.S. and Israel share. 

"Religious tolerance – that doesn't exist in Gaza. You're either a Muslim or an infidel and you better be a Muslim," Maher said. "Female freedom, free and fair elections, free speech, gay rights – I see these ‘Queers for Palestine.'"

"Did you hear their sister organization, Blacks for the KKK?" Kirchick quipped. "By the way, I'm a gay man, I've lived in Berlin. This is a level of masochism that even I cannot comprehend."

"The fact that, you know, these people think that this is where they should be aligned with, that these are the values that you support?" Maher complained. 

 

saw this last night. I do agree with him that the moral equivalency stuff can go too far, but then he used that valid (imo) argument to then go too far with it. 

 

Is Hamas what he describes? yep. Are all Palestinians? No. 

 

[bishopshodan]

19 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

saw this last night. I do agree with him that the moral equivalency stuff can go too far, but then he used that valid (imo) argument to then go too far with it. 

 

Is Hamas what he describes? yep. Are all Palestinians? No. 

 

 

Thats what I mean.

 

I felt a little like he was implying that all Palestinians have a bad moral culture so how can you live with them...not making a distinction between Hamas and the Palestinian people. 

 

I also didn't like the throw away statement about lives of babies...'"I don't think Israelis would ever purposely kill babies. I think they have killed babies. That's collateral damage, which is another horrible thing, but that's part of war.'

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by bishopshodan
I cant spell!

[Bob Long]

9 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Thats what I mean.

 

I felt a little like he implying that all Palastians have a bad moral culture so how can you live with them...not making a distinction between Hamas and the Palastian people. 

 

yea Bill's dislike of Muslim religion was showing on that one. 

 

9 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

I also didn't like the throw away statement about lives of babies...'"I don't think Israelis would ever purposely kill babies. I think they have killed babies. That's collateral damage, which is another horrible thing, but that's part of war.'

 

 

that raised my eyebrows too. As if a death is more palatable because "collateral". Eep. Tell that to the parents. 

 

But these are the things that come out when events like this happen, we see all the ugly seams and unsaid stuff. 

 

--

 

 

I keep thinking back to all the missed opportunities for peace and have been wondering if we have a better or worse chance for it moving forward, and right now I'd say a far less chance. 

 

Hamas knew they were throwing a grenade into any hope for peace between Israeli's and anyone else in the region, I just can't see Israel doing anything less than a complete crushing of Gaza, maybe reducing their territory to 1/2 of what it was moving forward, or maybe even a complete takeover and occupation. 

 

I don't think anyone knows what the region will look like a year from now. 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Bob Long

[moosehead]

13 minutes ago, bishopshodan said:

 

Thats what I mean.

 

I felt a little like he was implying that all Palestinians have a bad moral culture so how can you live with them...not making a distinction between Hamas and the Palestinian people. 

 

I also didn't like the throw away statement about lives of babies...'"I don't think Israelis would ever purposely kill babies. I think they have killed babies. That's collateral damage, which is another horrible thing, but that's part of war.'

 

 

 

Breaking Down Bill Maher’s History Of Racially Insensitive Remarks

 

 

[bishopshodan]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

yea Bill's dislike of Muslim religion was showing on that one. 

 

 

that raised my eyebrows too. As if a death is more palatable because "collateral". Eep. Tell that to the parents. 

 

But these are the things that come out when events like this happen, we see all the ugly seams and unsaid stuff. 

 

--

 

 

I keep thinking back to all the missed opportunities for peace and have been wondering if we have a better or worse chance for it moving forward, and right now I'd say a far less chance. 

 

Hamas knew they were throwing a grenade into any hope for peace between Israeli's and anyone else in the region, I just can't see Israel doing anything less than a complete crushing of Gaza, maybe reducing their territory to 1/2 of what it was moving forward, or maybe even a complete takeover and occupation. 

 

I don't think anyone knows what the region will look like a year from now. 

 

 

Yep.

Also, one of Bill's guests mentioned the idea that Netanyahu never wanted anything to do with two states and actually propped up Hamas for that reason.