Hamas attacking Israel

[Optimist Prime]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

Again.  There will never be peace in the area.  The conflict is to generational

I am, hopefully eternally, an Optimist.

 

The very steps towards peace in the area are why Hamas chose last Saturday to spend their charge and blood in a massive and horrible assault on innocents from infants to octogenarians. The attack is widely viewed among the literati on the subject as attempting to forestall the Saudi's from recognizing israel as a nation and agreeing it has a right to exist vis a vis some treaty they were about to put forward jointly between Israel and Saudi Arabia, as Jordan has done and Egypt has done and as about 8 other arab nations have done already. 

 

Hamas went all in on preventing another regional arab nation from officially ratifying Israel's right to exist.

It didn't work so well for them in the short term but in the long term they may have pushed off that agreement for some weeks, months or years. 

 

Peace marches forward. Despite the unstable moment in time we are witnessing, our lives have been among the most peaceful years on earth in human history. 

 

I would say i lean towards peace and prosperity for all. I think for the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip that starts by removing Hamas. 

[Optimist Prime]

18 minutes ago, Provost said:

 

That was a good scene for sure, and it summed up a particular mindset. I would just caution that the script is not an historical document, those words were never said out loud by anyone in the Middle East. They were written by Hollywood script writers of the type who just now finished a strike here in North America for better pay, circumstances and some guarantees that AI won't rip them off by learning their individual writing styles and mimicking them. 

Great script, but just a made up dialogue from the imagination of a professional dialogue creator. That being said, it sums up some mindset of some folks clearly and concisely before the third act. 

[Coconuts]

3 hours ago, Provost said:

Please cite the background you have researched for this that is more than pure entirely random conjecture based on your personal biases.

 

There is no history of Gaza fighters using car bombs as a strategy.  The very few in this conflict over decades that have been used were by perpetrators in and from the West Bank. 

 

I can assure you it has an incredibly low likelihood of being an IED like was suggested.  They just don’t work that way.  They don’t pick and choose a vehicle in the midst of a steady stream of thousands of vehicles on a highway to blow up.  Someone throwing it onto the highway would expect to be a casualty themselves for little result.

 

It also is just not a simple or effective method to block traffic if that was their aim.  Simply take a few cars or a bus…  Make them non operational across the highway at a chokepoint.  You don’t need suicide bombers or hard to get explosives.  It would be traffic chaos, vehicles would run out of gas while waiting for it to clear… it is a super simple thing to do and doesn’t require bombings their own people.

 

What we DO know for a fact is that Israel is currently undertaking a campaign of constant airstrikes in Gaza. That is verified by independent observers and clear on videos.

 

There are numerous instance of evacuation routes being indiscriminately bombed along with other targets   Not in any sort of patterned way that would indicate the intentional blockade of escape routes at different choke points.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/14/middleeast/gaza-israel-evacuation-saturday-intl-hnk/index.html

 

The only side that has been shown to do that so far is Israel that repeatedly bombed the only foreign checkpoint out of Gaza at Rafah.  They admitted doing it and have said they do not intend to allow any aid to come in on that route.

 

They have successfully sealed off the only escape route from Gaza which is awfully strange for wanting them to evacuate.

 

That is all aside from the fact the entire order to evacuate a million people, including hospitals and refugee camps is a war crime and illegal.  It is also logistically impossible and they know that.
 

On top of that, it has no tactical advantage for their stated aims.  Guess who would leave at the same time?  Hamas fighters.  They would leave with the civilian population and then come back when those civilians returned.  
 

It is either another land grab; a chance to raze half of Gaza as retribution; a way to gift a veneer of moral cover when they kill many of the tens of thousands who are simply unable to evacuate.

 

The ones who were unable to leave now get told they deserve to die and shelled even more indiscriminately.  Many of the ones who left will die anyways from hunger, disease, thirst, and exposure.  A large chunk of them were already in refugee camps in northern Gaza after being displaced by Israel earlier.  There isn’t a million shelters in southern Gaza for them.  There isn’t food and water for a million of them in southern Gaza.

 

It is a death sentence either way.

 

This is big concern of mine, with Israeli armed forces now rolling into Gaza what incentive are they going to have to leave and allow the Palestinian people to return? With all the bombings and so on what's going to be left to return to?

 

I could see a line of reasoning that would say the Palestinians, and Hamas, would be easier to keep an eye on within a smaller stretch of land. Was saying this yesterday, I fear Israel may use Hamas's assault to justify a land grab and assault on any Palestinians in the area. It's not as if there was much notice. 

 

2 hours ago, Sabrefan1 said:

 

I'm only part Canuck.  The rest of me is as sharp as a Sabre!

 

[Warhippy]

2 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

This is the philosophical discussion that i will only reply to once. It doesn’t matter what the “scientific” definition is. The real life definition of antisemitism is very clearly only anti Jewish.

Now.  Since we've had your answer to this.

 

I will ask you very clearly and very simply.

 

Is anti israeli sentiment anti-semitism?

Edited October 14, 2023 by Warhippy

[RomanPer]

Just now, Warhippy said:

Now.  Since you are in the co-opted camp for that phrase.

 

I will ask you very clearly and very simply.

 

Is anti israeli sentiment anti-semitism?

The answer is “it depends”. If you criticize certain policies of specific Israeli government - it’s not. If no matter what, Israel is always at fault - it is (maybe if it’s just subconscious). I criticize certain policies of the current government. Hell, 50% of Israel always criticized decisions of the government.

[Provost]

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

 

This is big concern of mine, with Israeli armed forces now rolling into Gaza what incentive are they going to have to leave and allow the Palestinian people to return? With all the bombings and so on what's going to be left to return to?

 

I could see a line of reasoning that would say the Palestinians, and Hamas, would be easier to keep an eye on within a smaller stretch of land. Was saying this yesterday, I fear Israel may use Hamas's assault to justify a land grab and assault on any Palestinians in the area. It's not as if there was much notice. 

 

 

There may be a grand plan that eventually makes sense… but so far the actions and stated aims don’t line up to anything that makes sense.

 

Leave your homes or we will kill you and it will be your fault.  We don’t care if you have no where to go, no way to get there, no food, or no water.  
Interspersed with heavy airstrikes killing people who are able to flee.

 

Hamas doesn’t have the capability to fight open battles with Israel.  They aren’t an army and aren’t hanging around to be shelled into non existence.

 

Maybe some planning and booby traps will be wasted, but it won’t degrade what capability Hamas has or eradicate them as has been indicated.

 

When they are done reducing half of Gaza into rubble, do they move on to the next half because there are Hamas there?  Is the next push to move two million people (the ones who haven’t died) into Egypt or be told they will be killed?

 

Is the plan that starving people to death will be slightly better optics than bombing them all?  Is it just cheaper to do it that way?

 

Does Israel plan on withdrawing from

Gaza?  Their entire policy is expansion of their borders, so that doesn’t seem very likely.  Is it military bases and then settlers gradually moving in?

 

 

[RomanPer]

8 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

This is big concern of mine, with Israeli armed forces now rolling into Gaza what incentive are they going to have to leave and allow the Palestinian people to return? With all the bombings and so on what's going to be left to return to?

 

I could see a line of reasoning that would say the Palestinians, and Hamas, would be easier to keep an eye on within a smaller stretch of land. Was saying this yesterday, I fear Israel may use Hamas's assault to justify a land grab and assault on any Palestinians in the area. It's not as if there was much notice. 

 

 

The incentive to leave is that even the right side of Israel in its majority doesn’t want to actually occupy Gaza. Yes, there are psychos that I would equate to something close to Hamas point of view from on the other side, but it’s pretty negligible percentages. Any government in Israel that will try to keep an army in Gaza for a prolonged period of time will be committing political suicide.

[RomanPer]

4 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

The answer is “it depends”. If you criticize certain policies of specific Israeli government - it’s not. If no matter what, Israel is always at fault - it is (maybe if it’s just subconscious). I criticize certain policies of the current government. Hell, 50% of Israel always criticized decisions of the government.

Sorry, one more thing - people who consistently anti-Israel are not consistent. Being anti-Israel on regular basis doesn’t stop them from using all the benefits they are provided by Israeli businesses. They should not be using computers, cell phones, refuse large number of medications, etc. because all these things have products developed by Israeli companies.

[Warhippy]

9 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

The answer is “it depends”. If you criticize certain policies of specific Israeli government - it’s not. If no matter what, Israel is always at fault - it is (maybe if it’s just subconscious). I criticize certain policies of the current government. Hell, 50% of Israel always criticized decisions of the government.

So then you would agree that people can be very critical of the response and what is going on right now in regards to Israel without it being anti-Semitic correct?

[Warhippy]

5 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

Sorry, one more thing - people who consistently anti-Israel are not consistent. Being anti-Israel on regular basis doesn’t stop them from using all the benefits they are provided by Israeli businesses. They should not be using computers, cell phones, refuse large number of medications, etc. because all these things have products developed by Israeli companies.

So now you're just being ridiculous. That's like saying I don't support the current development in Alberta's oil sands. Therefore you should not use oil or drive cars or heat your house.

 

It's a very simple question in which people who can disagree with current Israeli policy on the endless annexation of Palestinian land are not anti-semitic for having those opinions. Yes or no?

Edited October 15, 2023 by Warhippy

[RupertKBD]

4 hours ago, Playoff Beered said:

Hamas received millions of dollars through cryptocurrency exchange with office in Moscow City - The Wall Street Journal

The Palestinian Jihad group allegedly received more than $93 million dollars through digital wallets on the eve of its attack on Israel. Hamas also used a similar funding scheme. WSJ, citing data from the analytical company Elliptic, states that the attack on Israel was partially financed through the popular crypto exchange Garantex, registered in Moscow.

 

This is interesting....

 

Immediately after the attack, the usual passengers in the GQP Klown Kar were blaming Biden for releasing the US hold on Iranian funds....

 

These are for the most part, the same people who have been advocating for getting out of Ukraine...

[RomanPer]

8 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

So then you would agree that people can be very critical of the response and what is going on right now in regards to Israel without it being anti-Semitic correct?

If the same people first showed any emotion about Saturday massacre. People on my ignore list started right away with the criticism of Israel. I have no time for such people.

[RomanPer]

8 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

So now you're just being ridiculous. That's like saying I don't support the current development in Alberta's oil sands. Therefore you should not use oil or drive cars or heat your house.

 

It's a very simple question in which people who can disagree with current Israeli policy on the endless annexation of Palestinian land are not anti-semitic for having those opinions. Yes or no?

I guess you missed the very important part of my message about people who criticize Israel for EVERYTHING.

[Provost]

11 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

The incentive to leave is that even the right side of Israel in its majority doesn’t want to actually occupy Gaza. Yes, there are psychos that I would equate to something close to Hamas point of view from on the other side, but it’s pretty negligible percentages. Any government in Israel that will try to keep an army in Gaza for a prolonged period of time will be committing political suicide.

… except they are occupying large swaths of Palestine, and continue to expand settlements aggressively.

 

I am genuinely curious as to how this would be different politically?  A river is a very natural boundary for a new border, and that is where the Palestinians have been ordered to go past.

 

Israel grabbed a bunch of land after their last war and justified it with the “might is right” principle.  Now no one internationally is even asking that they give up that land.  Why not repeat the same play book.  
 

They keep stating this is just the beginning and they promise to completely eradicate Hamas.  The only way to really do that is to remove all Palestinians permanently.  Does anyone think Hamas wouldn’t come back if the civilian population did?  That is ludicrous.

[RomanPer]

6 minutes ago, RupertKBD said:

 

This is interesting....

 

Immediately after the attack, the usual passengers in the GQP Klown Kar were blaming Biden for releasing the US hold on Iranian funds....

 

These are for the most part, the same people who have been advocating for getting out of Ukraine...

I also recall certain individuals in this thread who called me “ridiculous” for suggesting that there’s a Russian connection to the attack.

[Junkyard Dog]

3 hours ago, RomanPer said:

 

I don’t know if you noticed - i was banned for 24 hours for snapping  

I predicted it as soon as I saw your post where you asked for one. 
 

I figured it would be a day. I would had spoken out had it been longer. I’ve been suspended multiple times. The one saving grace with the new forums is that my warning points didn’t get transferred. I got my clean slate. 
 

I wasn’t friendly in my late teenage years on CDC and in life. I had a lot of anger issues and violence tendencies back then too.

[RupertKBD]

4 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

I also recall certain individuals in this thread who called me “ridiculous” for suggesting that there’s a Russian connection to the attack.

 

I've always found that with the ME, one should never discount any possibility....

[CBH1926]

Since I keep hearing that Hamas is a “paper tiger” and a boogeyman made up mainly by Israel. I decided to go look at recent terrorist attacks against Israel. So in the 10 year period, from 1994 to 2005 when I deducted terrorist attacks by Fatah, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, Al Aqsa Martyrs etc. Hamas has carried out at least 50 attacks resulting in 354 deaths and close to 2000 wounded. There are many more where no group has taken a responsibility.
 

While I recognize the fact that they are not a military juggernaut like IDF, they sure have killed and maimed lot of people. Be against Jewish extremism, Israel bombing and killing civilians or settlers taking Palestinian land. Don’t say that Hamas is some ineffective terrorist organization, because they are clearly not. And if you can’t see that, you are either biased, disingenuous or this conflict is way above your head imo.

Edited October 15, 2023 by CBH1926

[JangoFett]

Sounding like modern day Nazis

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by JangoFett

[Coconuts]

58 minutes ago, Provost said:

There may be a grand plan that eventually makes sense… but so far the actions and stated aims don’t line up to anything that makes sense.

 

Leave your homes or we will kill you and it will be your fault.  We don’t care if you have no where to go, no way to get there, no food, or no water.  
Interspersed with heavy airstrikes killing people who are able to flee.

 

Hamas doesn’t have the capability to fight open battles with Israel.  They aren’t an army and aren’t hanging around to be shelled into non existence.

 

Maybe some planning and booby traps will be wasted, but it won’t degrade what capability Hamas has or eradicate them as has been indicated.

 

When they are done reducing half of Gaza into rubble, do they move on to the next half because there are Hamas there?  Is the next push to move two million people (the ones who haven’t died) into Egypt or be told they will be killed?

 

Is the plan that starving people to death will be slightly better optics than bombing them all?  Is it just cheaper to do it that way?

 

Does Israel plan on withdrawing from

Gaza?  Their entire policy is expansion of their borders, so that doesn’t seem very likely.  Is it military bases and then settlers gradually moving in?

 

 

 

I don't know, but shelling x or y region won't necessarily lead to the definitive defeat of Hamas. I understand the desire to root them out, and the Palestinian people would be better off if they were, but rooting them out probably isn't as simple as rolling in however many thousand troops and military assets. As you said, they're not all likely just going to hang out waiting to be blown up. 

 

I'm skeptical as to whether Israel will withdraw from Gaza, seems like the perfect opportunity to seize it given they've already informed Palestinians that they should flee for their lives. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, what happens next is honestly anyone's guess.

 

My assumption is things won't just go back to how they were before, it'll probably be different but I'm just not sure how. It's going to be really interesting to see how things play out for Hamas, the Palestinian people, and Israel going forward. Even if active combat subsides there's still probably a fallout of some sort. How couldn't there be? If only on a legal, military, or policy level. It's not like any side is going to move on as if nothing has happened.

 

57 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

The incentive to leave is that even the right side of Israel in its majority doesn’t want to actually occupy Gaza. Yes, there are psychos that I would equate to something close to Hamas point of view from on the other side, but it’s pretty negligible percentages. Any government in Israel that will try to keep an army in Gaza for a prolonged period of time will be committing political suicide.

 

I don't know what Israel wants to do with Gaza going forward, hence my concern. How they behaved before the most recent Hamas attack doesn't necessarily dictate how they'll proceed going forward, I think this could probably said of political moves as well. This was the largest Hamas assault ever was it not? Or at least in recent memory?

 

I'd imagine there's a lot of fear, shock, trauma, anger, and so on within Israel now that can be directly tied to the Hamas attack, I wouldn't be surprised to see politicians try to capitalize on that to push political agendas through or to try and win political points. I don't need to know the ins and outs of Israeli politics to understand that politicians will be politicians, or that a notable tragedy can fuel unexpected or previously unthinkable decisions. 

 

I don't have a crystal ball telling me what the Israeli government will do, and I mention them specifically because while they aren't representative of every Israeli, Israel isn't a monolith, they are calling the shots. 

 

It's worth asking because any faction that doesn't want to fight openly will likely insert itself into the general Palestinian populace, they provide cover and somewhere to hide. Ideologies are a tough thing to kill, and the lives lost on each side will likely spur on countless ideologies.

[Provost]

1 hour ago, CBH1926 said:

Since I keep hearing that Hamas is a “paper tiger” and a boogeyman made up mainly by Israel. I decided to go look at recent terrorist attacks against Israel. So in the 10 year period, from 1994 to 2005 when I deducted terrorist attacks by Fatah, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, Al Aqsa Martyrs etc. Hamas has carried out at least 50 attacks resulting in 354 deaths and close to 2000 wounded. There are many more where no group has taken a responsibility.
 

While I recognize the fact that they are not a military juggernaut like IDF, they sure have killed and maimed lot of people. Be against Jewish extremism, Israel bombing and killing civilians or settlers taking Palestinian land. Don’t say that Hamas is some ineffective terrorist organization, because they are clearly not. And if you can’t see that, you are either biased, disingenuous or this conflict is way above your head imo.

Post the link to your sources.  Then do the same for Israel.

 

How many of those were in Gaza during the occupation and not terrorist attacks at all?  The two sides were in open armed conflict at the time.

 

How many in the last 20 years since the occupation of Gaza ended?

 

It seems like you might be the one being disingenuous.  “Recent attacks” being defined as a specific period from between 20-30 years ago during a period of open armed conflict in Gaza itself? Why pick numbers from way back then when there is recent information available?  

 

I will help you be a little less disingenuous as this seems above your head.

 

Here are UN reports of fatalities related to the conflict.  It does not differentiate between terrorist attacks and other fatalities.  It also includes ALL deaths and not by Hamas, the vast bulk of these are in the West Bank between Israeli soldiers and armed settlers and Palestinians.  Terrorist attacked deaths from Hamas is a tiny subset of these numbers.   It also excludes Palestinian deaths inside Gaza and non-occupied territory.  The numbers are pretty clear and compelling.

 

Even taking what you said at face value and being true (it isn’t), it literally still makes my exact point.  
 

If Hamas had the capability to undertake mass terror attacks why didn’t they.  300 total deaths a decade during an open armed conflict involving millions of people, including fights between soldiers and not terrorist attacks is minuscule.  That is a little more than two a month.  Why haven’t they been killing 1500 a day, or a week, or a month, or a year, or a decade?  They did that last week.

 

A reputed 40,000 savage armed monsters with the sole aim of eradicating Israel manage to kill 2 of them a month?  Do the math.  It takes a group of 1,300 bloodthirsty animal terrorists a year of planning to get together to kill one Israeli?

 

That isn’t a paper tiger to you?  That is using your own inflated numbers, not the actual ones that dan be easily found which are a tiny fraction of that.

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Provost

[Ilunga]

7 hours ago, RupertKBD said:

 

...or Bills fans....

 

I sorta followed them in the early 90's when the ABC here in Aus had NFL on the telly and Jim Kelly was their QB.

Four straight superbowl loses, EFF me !

[RomanPer]

10 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

I don't know what Israel wants to do with Gaza going forward, hence my concern. How they behaved before the most recent Hamas attack doesn't necessarily dictate how they'll proceed going forward, I think this could probably said of political moves as well. This was the largest Hamas assault ever was it not? Or at least in recent memory?

 

I'd imagine there's a lot of fear, shock, trauma, anger, and so on within Israel now that can be directly tied to the Hamas attack, I wouldn't be surprised to see politicians try to capitalize on that to push political agendas through or to try and win political points. I don't need to know the ins and outs of Israeli politics to understand that politicians will be politicians, or that a notable tragedy can fuel unexpected or previously unthinkable decisions. 

 

I don't have a crystal ball telling me what the Israeli government will do, and I mention them specifically because while they aren't representative of every Israeli, Israel isn't a monolith, they are calling the shots. 

 

It's worth asking because any faction that doesn't want to fight openly will likely insert itself into the general Palestinian populace, they provide cover and somewhere to hide. Ideologies are a tough thing to kill, and the lives lost on each side will likely spur on countless ideologies.

The reason why I think Israel won’t stay in Gaza is because that will lead to soldier deaths, which will not sit well with Jewish Moms. It’s one thing to die in war when defending the country and it’s quite different when just sitting in Gaza.

[Provost]

1 hour ago, RomanPer said:

The reason why I think Israel won’t stay in Gaza is because that will lead to soldier deaths, which will not sit well with Jewish Moms. It’s one thing to die in war when defending the country and it’s quite different when just sitting in Gaza.

I absolutely agree that occupying a populated Gaza is a non starter because body bags are bad politically.

 

That isn’t what anyone is suggesting though.  Occupying a piece of land that you have depopulated and turned into a parking lot through mass airstrikes is easy and doesn’t result in mass casualties.  Justify it by pushing back the border to the river so there is a de facto buffer zone.

 

The depopulating part and mass bombing is underway now.  I am not making that up.  IDF spokesmen and Israeli politicians are literally on every news channel saying they are doing it.

 

No one knows what the actual plan afterwards is.  Just that the tactics don’t seem to match up with their stated goals.

 

Depopulating in this way doesn’t leave Hamas behind to fight… it leaves the weakest and most vulnerable behind to face widespread airstrikes.  Elderly, the poorest, those with young families who can’t walk many miles through constant shelling to some unknown location with no food or water or shelter.  The ones in refugee camps already. The thousands injured and in hospital already from the constant airstrikes this past week.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Provost

[RupertKBD]

34 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I sorta followed them in the early 90's when the ABC here in Aus had NFL on the telly and Jim Kelly was their QB.

Four straight superbowl loses, EFF me !

 

Kelly is my all-time favorite player (although Josh Allen is getting there)

 

I was a fan of the Raiders back in the Kenny Stabler days, but I disowned the team when Davis moved them out of Oakland....