Hamas attacking Israel

[moosehead]

5 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

 

 

My guess is once Israel has managed to put down Hamas fighters, the people of Gaza will likely get aid from Israel again.

 

 

Israel will never put down Hamas fighters .   Hamas  is an ideology  that is a result of Apartheid, Oppression, Occupation, and Ethnic cleansing. 

 

When you torture a population you will never rid the ideology that rises in opposition. 

 

Israel needs to deal with the causes of this conflict... and not only try to address the attacks...

Edited October 15, 2023 by moosehead

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Ryan Strome said:

This is what the vast majority don't understand. What do you expect when you push people to the edge.

 

But that doesn't really explain Iran's involvement (and likely Russia) to destabilize the region.

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Nor do I.

 

How would you propose that the people firing rockets from apartment rooftops are dealt with? 

Keep in mind those people are the Army of Gaza led by the government of Gaza.

 

Personally, i believe in meaningful peaceful negotiations for a 2 state solution.  In  exchange for peace now, Israel and the western world should be providing aid and  liveable housing to paliistinians that have had their land/housing seized by israel.      

[RomanPer]

7 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

 

Hippy; these are probe leading queries you're putting up. 

 

Like a detective. Designed to trap someone in to targeted answers. Give the guy a week or three; what went down last weekend was terrible. People are gunna be emotional. 

Even 10 years won’t change my answer to that particular question  

[Optimist Prime]

Just now, moosehead said:

 

Personally, i believe in meaningful peaceful negotiations for a 2 state solution.  In  exchange for peace now, Israel and the western world should be providing aid and  liveable housing to paliistinians that have had their land/housing seized by israel.      

so let thousands of rockets fly into israeli settlements while this negotiation occurs?

We live in reality, and the present, no one has a time machine to go back and fix root causes before they happened.

 

What do you do right this minute, knowing that int he last 8 days the Government Of Gaza has sent over 6000 rockets into Israeli civilian centers and farms?

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

Personally, i believe in meaningful peaceful negotiations for a 2 state solution.  In  exchange for peace now, Israel and the western world should be providing aid and  liveable housing to paliistinians that have had their land/housing seized by israel.      

Is peace possible with a group like Hamas? 

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

so let thousands of rockets fly into israeli settlements while this negotiation occurs?

We live in reality, and the present, no one has a time machine to go back and fix root causes before they happened.

 

What do you do right this minute, knowing that int he last 8 days the Government Of Gaza has sent over 6000 rockets into Israeli civilian centers and farms?

 

The only lasting peace will be a negotiated peace.       

[Coconuts]

3 hours ago, bolt said:

Being LGBTQI+ in Palestine means:

 

1) Up to 10 years in Prison for being Gay 

2) Physical violence including beheadings, assault & torture 

3) No civil laws protecting LGBT from discrimination or harassment

4) LGBT groups are banned from holding any events or parades
 

 

 

 

And if many in western countries such as Canada and the US had their way they'd be treated similarly here. Sure, in Canada and the US it's not as if the government is going to execute someone for being LGBQTI+, but we've still seen what.. a record number of anti-LGBTQ+ bills in the US this year and we've seen more anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric occurring in Canada the last number of years as well. 

 

LGBTQ+ are still more likely to be violently victimized, they still experience stigma, in many countries they're more likely to be murdered, they're more likely to experience inappropriate sexual behaviour, they're more likely to abuse drugs or alcohol to cope, they're more likely to attempt suicide, and so on. I mean, we just finally banned conversion therapy. 

 

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/09/1062720266/canada-bans-conversion-therapy

 

How the LGBTQ+ are treated around the world is sickening, certainly, I'm probably more likely than many on this forum to advocate for them, but when pointing fingers at other countries we need to be mindful of what happens at home. 

 

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/200909/dq200909a-eng.htm

 

https://www.mentalhealthcommission.ca/wp-content/uploads/drupal/2019-05/Sexual minorities and suicide fact sheet.pdf

 

2 hours ago, Twilight Sparkle said:

sounds like what parts of the US is wanting to do with gays and trans people; just minus the executions (detransitioning people IS dehumanizing them). religion needs to stop being a thing for governing bodies

 

Yup, religion and nationalism are cancerous when tethered to politics. 

 

1 hour ago, Sharpshooter said:

 

Now that the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower and her Carrier Strike Group are Enroute towards the Eastern Mediterranean, NATO will soon have a Massive Naval Armada in the Region this includes: 

 

- 2 Aircraft Carriers
USS Gerald R. Ford (CVN-78)
USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69)

 

- 2 Ticonderoga-Class Cruisers
USS Normandy (CG-60)
USS Philippines Sea (CG-58)

 

- 7 Arleigh Burke-Class Destroyers
USS Thomas Hudner (DDG-116)
USS Ramage (DDG-61)
USS Carney (DDG-64)
USS Roosevelt (DDG-80)
USS Laboon (DDG-58)
USS Mason (DDG-87)
USS Gravely (DDG-107)

 

- 1 Type-45 Air Defense Destroyer
HMS Duncan (D-37)

 

- 5 Frigates
ESPS Méndez Núñez (F-104) 
FS Surcouf (F-711)
ITS Carlo Margottini (F-592)
TCG Yavuz (F-240)
HS Psara (F-454)

 

- 2 Landing Support Ships
RFA Lyme Bay
RFA Argus 

 

As well as an untold number of Submarines, Supply Ships, Aircraft and other Surface Ships which may also enter or be ordered to the Eastern Mediterranean over the next week, in my opinion this is much more than just Posturing for an Israeli Invasion of Gaza.

 

That's a concerning show of force, can't help but wonder if this might not escalate in a way we haven't anticipated. Could be much more than a ground invasion.

 

33 minutes ago, Provost said:

Already starting to try to change the narrative.  Israel stated it was cutting off water and electricity to Gaza and did so.

 

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-768005

Public sentiment in the world is moving towards sympathizing with thousand of refugees being bombed and millions starved.

 

Now this morning their ambassador was on CNN with Jake Tapper and said it was Hamas who did it and not Israel

 

They need to keep track of their own propaganda.

 

 

 

That's a weird one, it was pretty well reported that Israel was the one cutting things off.

 

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

 

The only lasting peace will be a negotiated peace.       

So no answer about what should be done right now today Oct 15th 2023 to stop the loss of life and limb right this minute.

 

Israel can't stop fighting back, Hamas will certainly not stop firing rockets if Israel stops blowing them up when they detect a launch.

 

I am hopeful for the least amount of loss of life, but the second Hamas started firing these rockets, the outcome was already written, it is a horrible terrible and unconscionable outcome, but Israel must protect its civilians from Hamas in real time and that means putting down Hamas fighters where they refuse to give themselves up.

 

I am hopeful for something to be worked out where Women, Children and the Elderly maybe bused out to the West Bank or something, but with 2.1 million in Gaza that is a tall order to fill. My guess is that will not happen in large enough numbers, if at all, but perhaps it is a possibility?

[Boudrias]

40 minutes ago, JangoFett said:

Israel has restraint eh? They have been keeping palestiniens as prisoners on a land that was taken from them. They control every aspect of their life from food, water, medicine. They have over decades killed innocent palestiniens but you haven’t heard of that so it doesn’t matter right? 
 

what you are spewing is filth. You should be ashamed of yourself. 
 

then you go on to say nuke a country and get it over with. What an Animalistic behaviour and opinion you are promoting. Shameful. Wow you’ve shown your true colours 

You have your shtick running full bore. Twisted history. Thank goodness Israelis don't have to listen to you.  

[Optimist Prime]

Excellent news!

 

Quote

3 hours ago - 31°13′N 34°17′E

Israeli officials confirm they turned on the water supply to the southern Gaza strip. It happens after strong U.S. pressure in the last 48 hours

 

[Warhippy]

14 hours ago, RomanPer said:

I believe someone here accused me about seeing everything as “black and white”. You want me to give an answer “yes or no” on a question that doesn’t have one of these answers unconditionally. Just because you want it, I can’t do that. I answered the best the way I can, take it or leave it.

 

As for the second part - you are being argumentative. Every single thing you listed that had Russian roots all 100+ years old. Russia of today doesn’t benefit financially from me using any of the byproducts of these inventions. And I completely cut any product produced in Russia starting in 2014. What I’m talking is about things being produced right now in a country that is supposedly guilty of every possible sin in the world. By that logic, by using these Israeli inventions, you are contributing to strengthen Israeli armed forces (via taxes paid by these corporations in Israel).

No answer is still an answer.

 

Have a good day Roman.

[Elias Pettersson]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/five-canadians-killed-in-israel-after-hamas-attack-global-affairs-confirms/ar-AA1ifr65
 

Five Canadians killed in Israel after Hamas attack, Global Affairs confirms

 

OTTAWA — Global Affairs Canada is confirming the death of a fifth Canadian in Israel after a series of attacks by Hamas militants near the border with the Gaza Strip. 

 

Officials say three other Canadians who were in Israel when the attacks happened last Saturday are still missing.

 

Canada considers Hamas a terrorist group, and Canadian leaders have decried the violence it waged last week near the Palestinian territory.

 

Julie Sunday, an assistant deputy minister for Global Affairs Canada, says the government is still working to get up to 300 Canadians and their relatives out of the Gaza Strip as Israel prepares an expected ground invasion. 

 

She says another 250 Canadians may be able to leave the West Bank territory by bus next week. 

 

Sunday also says Canadians should avoid travelling to Lebanon, where there have been violent clashes along the border with Israel. 

 

This report by The Canadian Press was first published Oct. 15, 2023.

The Canadian Press

Edited October 15, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Coconuts]

9 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Excellent news!

 

 

 

Very good news. I know it might seem like I'm nitpicking a win, but I'd feel better about it if it hadn't required US pressure. They've pushed the Palestinian people to move to southern Gaza, providing them with the water they literally need to stay alive seems like the least they can do. 

[Warhippy]

3 hours ago, bolt said:

Being LGBTQI+ in Palestine means:

 

1) Up to 10 years in Prison for being Gay 

2) Physical violence including beheadings, assault & torture 

3) No civil laws protecting LGBT from discrimination or harassment

4) LGBT groups are banned from holding any events or parades
 

 

 

Tell me.

 

How does the Hasidic sect as the balance in Israel view the LGBTQ community?

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, Optimist Prime said:

The government of Gaza attacked Israeli civilians. Israeli civilians and their government have no responsibility to feed the people at war with them, any more than England had to feed Germany during ww2

The government of Israel blocked access to fresh water and electricity for millions and controls not only food but medicine via blockades in to Palestinian land.

 

Tell me more about who's responsibility it is to feed people you have effectively cut off from fresh food, water, electrical access after annexing their land and closing their borders via military blockade

[Warhippy]

50 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

Even 10 years won’t change my answer to that particular question  

But you've already given your answer.  And that's ok.  That's who you are and what you believe.

 

Just try not to apply that mindset of everyone who is not with me is an enemy or a bad guy to every day life. 

 

There's already enough of that going on

[Optimist Prime]

4 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Tell me.

 

How does the Hasidic sect as the balance in Israel view the LGBTQ community?

I think we all agree that bigotry and hatred against any other humans is not a correct mindset. I am not sure how the Hasidic folks feel but my guess is that they are against the LGBTQ2S+ people, it is a global issue that I hope marches forward in progress to protect those lives. 

 

I was witness to two stonings while I was in Syria. The first one was a local shopkeeper, who was successful and so could afford a car. He had accidentally run over a child and killed the boy in a roadway near Al-Kawm. The town official pronounced him guilty of the death of the boy child and about 20 or so folks had already begun to stone him on the side of the road when we chose to intervene and pick him up in a very rash split moment decision. We drove him to the UN camp South of Damascus and dropped him off inside the gates, informed the officials there of the situation and later that day he left the camp of his own accord with minor cuts and bruises. We were told later back in Al-kawm that if we had not removed him from teh crowd, they would have stoned him to death, but if he only killed a girl-child then a fine would have been appropriate to be paid to her father as compensation. The second time was a thin effeminate man, we didn't get there in time and he was quite literally stoned to death for apparently being caught out as a gay. 

 

This is a global problem, not one isolated to any particular culture, but I find it takes religion and faith to truely become murderous to those who love in different ways.

[Bob Long]

12 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

The government of Israel blocked access to fresh water and electricity for millions and controls not only food but medicine via blockades in to Palestinian land.

 

Tell me more about who's responsibility it is to feed people you have effectively cut off from fresh food, water, electrical access after annexing their land and closing their borders via military blockade

 

Given the scale and nature of the attack, is cutting off supplies for a brief time really that surprising a move? Let's see how this evolves in the next few days.

[Optimist Prime]

12 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

The government of Israel blocked access to fresh water and electricity for millions and controls not only food but medicine via blockades in to Palestinian land.

 

Tell me more about who's responsibility it is to feed people you have effectively cut off from fresh food, water, electrical access after annexing their land and closing their borders via military blockade

When you start wars and lose wars, over and over and over again, I don't think it is reasonable to continue to demand to get your way, in this case, possession of lands. 

 

We won't agree on the details at all, but I hope we can agree that Hamas, the terror organization that was elected to govern Gaza by the people of Gaza are criminal and murderous and must be stopped from what they started 8 days ago.

[Warhippy]

5 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I think we all agree that bigotry and hatred against any other humans is not a correct mindset. I am not sure how the Hasidic folks feel but my guess is that they are against the LGBTQ2S+ people, it is a global issue that I hope marches forward in progress to protect those lives. 

 

I was witness to two stonings while I was in Syria. The first one was a local shopkeeper, who was successful and so could afford a car. He had accidentally run over a child and killed the boy in a roadway near Al-Kawm. The town official pronounced him guilty of the death of the boy child and about 20 or so folks had already begun to stone him on the side of the road when we chose to intervene and pick him up in a very rash split moment decision. We drove him to the UN camp South of Damascus and dropped him off inside the gates, informed the officials there of the situation and later that day he left the camp of his own accord with minor cuts and bruises. We were told later back in Al-kawm that if we had not removed him from teh crowd, they would have stoned him to death, but if he only killed a girl-child then a fine would have been appropriate to be paid to her father as compensation. The second time was a thin effeminate man, we didn't get there in time and he was quite literally stoned to death for apparently being caught out as a gay. 

 

This is a global problem, not one isolated to any particular culture, but I find it takes religion and faith to truely become murderous to those who love in different ways.

It is a global issue.

 

But with the light being shone down as a "they're bad because" statement.

 

Knowing that it's not JUST a them issue but an over reaching issue and one both sides are guilty of perpetuating helps

[CBH1926]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:36 AM, Provost said:

 

Hamas was the bogeyman that Israel has used to decades to scare their own population.  The reality, was that it was invented.

 Hamas was a paper tiger that never had any real military capability to any way to threaten Israel in any meaningful way. 
 

They weren’t particularly violent in the context of the region

 

vast bulk of their actual force is kids throwing rocks

 

they weren’t really afraid of Hamas, and had little reason to be. 
 

It was an impotent group that was virtually all bark and no bite. 

 

Israelis weren’t scared of Hamas because there was no reason to be.  
 

the threat from Hamas for decades was just largely invented and not real.

 

 

According to you Hamas was invented , impotent paper tiger, not particularly violent, with bulk of their force being kids throwing rocks. Is that what your argument is? Go ahead and tell us again how you are not minimizing their crimes.

Edited October 15, 2023 by CBH1926

[Warhippy]

Just now, Optimist Prime said:

When you start wars and lose wars, over and over and over again, I don't think it is reasonable to continue to demand to get your way, in this case, possession of lands. 

 

We won't agree on the details at all, but I hope we can agree that Hamas, the terror organization that was elected to govern Gaza by the people of Gaza are criminal and murderous and must be stopped from what they started 8 days ago.

This blocked access happened years ago 

 

This is not a recent incident at all.  To suggest that they have no onus to feed anyone due to this recent spate of violence is disingenuous when they have effectively controlled all food and water access for years 

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

It is a global issue.

 

But with the light being shone down as a "they're bad because" statement.

 

Knowing that it's not JUST a them issue but an over reaching issue and one both sides are guilty of perpetuating helps

I am genuinely not sure what you mean by "helps"...helps what exactly in the context of this topic?

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Given the scale and nature of the attack, is cutting off supplies for a brief time really that surprising a move? Let's see how this evolves in the next few days.

See above response.

 

Then understand the following

 

The movement of people and goods — including food and water — has been controlled under an Israeli blockade since 2007. Israel withdrew its military forces from the territory under international pressure in 2005 but has said it needed to maintain the blockade to protect Israelis from Hamas