Hamas attacking Israel

[RomanPer]

6 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

 

So you're just rewriting history then? The right of return for palestinian refugees, and sovereignty over holy sites were 2 of several points that Barak did not compromise on. If your version of history is true - then why did Arafat renounce terrorism and the PLO officially acknowledge Israel's right to exist?

 

So Israel removes some settlements from Gaza, then depopulates parts of the West Bank and builds more settlements there- and youre surprised that didn't assuage the grievances felt by the Palestinians?

 

 

 

As for the holly sites - what about Jewish holly sites? Do you know how many times Muslim holly sites in Jerusalem mentioned in Koran? Exactly, zero. And 2 destructed Jewish temples, of which only Western Wall remains, are all over the Torah.

[eeeeeeeeergh]

4 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

Ok, how far back in history do you want to go? Because i can do it all day. What happened the very next day in 1948 after UN decision on 2 states? Did Israel attack all its neighbours or the other way around? Arab leaders told their own people to leave and let them wipe out Jews before they can return. Well, they were right, they can’t return until they wipe out Jews, which is never. All Israel wants is to live in peace. You keep ignoring examples of Egypt and Jordan.

i mean youre just wrong about all of this but i cant convince someone who's written their own version of history. This is how people were removed from their homes to make room for Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

 

Shame on you but w/e im back to hockey. 

[RomanPer]

Just now, eeeeeeeeergh said:

 

Just hop on youtube and watch 5-10 videos from historians on the origins of the conflict, try to find out why Palestinians are without homes today, watch some videos on what its like living in a city under occupation and then form an opinion. 

 

Lol. “I did my own research” = “I watched 5-10 YouTube videos of someone with specific agenda or without a clue”. If you want to do your research - ask all sides of the conflict, not just one.

[Elias Pettersson]

She has deleted this tweet...

 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

2 minutes ago, RomanPer said:

 

As for the holly sites - what about Jewish holly sites? Do you know how many times Muslim holly sites in Jerusalem mentioned in Koran? Exactly, zero. And 2 destructed Jewish temples, of which only Western Wall remains, are all over the Torah.

yeah this is kinda what i thought

 

people who are ok with the way the israeli state was initially formed believe that it was justified to depopulate the local palestinians because of the religious significance of the land

 

"yes you live there now, but its mine because my holy book says i should have it"

[eeeeeeeeergh]

1 minute ago, RomanPer said:

 

Lol. “I did my own research” = “I watched 5-10 YouTube videos of someone with specific agenda or without a clue”. If you want to do your research - ask all sides of the conflict, not just one.

my wife is jewish, ive been to tel aviv twice

 

im well versed on both sides, thanks

[Ryan Strome]

5 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

my wife is jewish, ive been to tel aviv twice

 

im well versed on both sides, thanks

It's ironic that he told you to view all sides because in this thread it's clear he hasn't.

[BlockerHigh]

33 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

How can this end? Its pretty fucking obvious. 

 

Remove the illegal settlements in the west bank and let people in Gaza import enough livestock and food to live. 

 

How tf do people think this is an intractable conflict thats been going on forever, when Hamas is basically a brand new organization.

 

Hamas didn't exist in the 1990s, The PLO was the palestinian terrorist organization of the day, and renounced violence because it had a partner in peace in Ehud Barak (Israeli PM at the time) who was actually sympathetic to the fact that Palestinians were depopulated to make way for the state of israel. 

As a pragmatist 

 

do you actually believe that will happen? 
 

I don’t…. I believe you’re over simplifying a very complex situation and looking for a magic bullet 

 

the reality is Israel is not going to do that, so what’s the alternative? I don’t know but expecting such an outcome is unrealistic imho 

[Elias Pettersson]

 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

Just now, BlockerHigh said:

As a pragmatist 

 

do you actually believe that will happen? 
 

I don’t…. I believe you’re over simplifying a very complex situation and looking for a magic bullet 

 

the reality is Israel is not going to do that, so what’s the alternative? I don’t know but expecting such an outcome is unrealistic imho 

Wildly, we were on track for it to happen while the Israeli Democratic Party was in power. Once Likud took over the outcome became entirely unrealistic. People forget that Likud was formed by Menachem Begin who was the leader of Irgun, the paramilitary group that was depopulating palestinian villages. Likud has no interest in a two state solution, or peace. The reason they've pushed more settlements, is Likud is ideologically bent on pushing palestinians back into Jordan and Syria. 

 

I hope at some point the Israeli people come to their senses and bring back the moderates who have some sympathy for the people living under occupation and blockade. 

 

Its really not a complicated situation at all, this is the big myth. People want to believe its complicated, because the simplicity of it puts any logical person in direct disagreement with the political leadership of north american and western europe. 

 

Land was forcibly taken from a group of people and given to others, more and more of that land is getting stripped away. The solution is pretty simple - stop stripping away the land, show some interest in peace, let Gazans import enough food to eat, show goodwill like helping Palestinians get jobs, get them some free access to online universities (50% unemployment in Gaza right now). You'll be amazed at how quickly support for Hamas goes away, just like the Palestinian people stopped supporting Arafats violence when Israel extended an olive branch. 

 

[BlockerHigh]

1 minute ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

Wildly, we were on track for it to happen while the Israeli Democratic Party was in power. Once Likud took over the outcome became entirely unrealistic. People forget that Likud was formed by Menachem Begin who was the leader of Irgun, the paramilitary group that was depopulating palestinian villages. Likud has no interest in a two state solution, or peace. The reason they've pushed more settlements, is Likud is ideologically bent on pushing palestinians back into Jordan and Syria. 

 

I hope at some point the Israeli people come to their senses and bring back the moderates who have some sympathy for the people living under occupation and blockade. 

 

Its really not a complicated situation at all, this is the big myth. People want to believe its complicated, because the simplicity of it puts any logical person in direct disagreement with the political leadership of north american and western europe. 

 

Land was forcibly taken from a group of people and given to others, more and more of that land is getting stripped away. The solution is pretty simple - stop stripping away the land, show some interest in peace, let Gazans import enough food to eat, show goodwill like helping Palestinians get jobs, get them some free access to online universities (50% unemployment in Gaza right now). You'll be amazed at how quickly support for Hamas goes away, just like the Palestinian people stopped supporting Arafats violence when Israel extended an olive branch. 

 

I guess you’re taking a view of the Palestinians only

 

im not taking either side - I’m saying suggesting it’s easy to solve this by taking one side is not going to happen 

 

we know that 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

2 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

I guess you’re taking a view of the Palestinians only

 

im not taking either side - I’m saying suggesting it’s easy to solve this by taking one side is not going to happen 

 

we know that 

 

I have yet to hear a compelling argument that justifies the removal of Palestinians from their homes to make way for settlers from North America and Europe. Until I hear that, I personally dont feel like theres a whole lot of "two sidedness" to the issue. 

 

Despite that, I dont believe in punishing the son for the sins of the father, so I also don't believe that jewish people born in Israel should be held accountable for what was done 70-80 years ago.

 

Which is why in the end, I believe in a 2 state solution. Israel, a demilitarized Palestine, and shared sovereignty over East Jerusalem. 

[Ryan Strome]

4 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

I guess you’re taking a view of the Palestinians only

 

im not taking either side - I’m saying suggesting it’s easy to solve this by taking one side is not going to happen 

 

we know that 

Well I mean the world has take Israel's side for 50 years. Maybe a different strategy?

[BlockerHigh]

1 minute ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

 

I have yet to hear a compelling argument that justifies the removal of Palestinians from their homes to make way for settlers from North America and Europe. Until I hear that, I personally dont feel like theres a whole lot of "two sidedness" to the issue. 

 

Despite that, I dont believe in punishing the son for the sins of the father, so I also don't believe that jewish people born in Israel should be held accountable for what was done 70-80 years ago.

 

Which is why in the end, I believe in a 2 state solution. Israel, a demilitarized Palestine, and shared sovereignty over East Jerusalem. 

I don’t think you’re getting my point 

 

 

[BlockerHigh]

3 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

Well I mean the world has take Israel's side for 50 years. Maybe a different strategy?

As above 

 

I’m not taking a side, I believe both sides are at fault, and what the solution is, I have no idea.

 

but the reality is, suggesting just rewinding the tape and thinking they will undo all that has been done, is not realistic given the history and vitriol between these 2 groups 

Edited October 8, 2023 by BlockerHigh

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

 

I have yet to hear a compelling argument that justifies the removal of Palestinians from their homes to make way for settlers from North America and Europe. Until I hear that, I personally dont feel like theres a whole lot of "two sidedness" to the issue. 

 

Despite that, I dont believe in punishing the son for the sins of the father, so I also don't believe that jewish people born in Israel should be held accountable for what was done 70-80 years ago.

 

Which is why in the end, I believe in a 2 state solution. Israel, a demilitarized Palestine, and shared sovereignty over East Jerusalem. 

That didn't work very well for South Korea over 70 years ago.

 

How about a large UN peace keeping force that is stationed there indefinitely? 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

5 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

I guess you’re taking a view of the Palestinians only

 

im not taking either side - I’m saying suggesting it’s easy to solve this by taking one side is not going to happen 

 

we know that 

 

The other part of this that I really struggle with is - I've been to the west bank, and ive been to tel aviv. I see the difference, and I've talked to so many people "on both sides".

 

Basically 99% of Palestinians and Israelis just want to have their homes, raise their kids, and survive everyday without a threat of violence.

 

The reason this is fairly one sided for me is - only one side has been removed from their homes and forced to live under occupation. By and large, Israeli life is exactly how it is in any other western city - its safe, its nice, theres good schools, lots of job opportunities. If you look at the number of civilian casualties in the conflict, its like 10:1 Palestinian to Israeli. 

 

I don't think that apartheid in South Africa was a "two sided issue" with good arguments for both sides. What I witnessed in Hebron was the definition of Apartheid. There were roads Palestinians were allowed to walk, and roads that only settlers were allowed on. 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

1 minute ago, BlockerHigh said:

As above 

 

I’m not taking a side, I believe both sides are at fault, and what the solution is, I have no idea.

 

but the reality is, suggesting just rewinding the tape and thinking they will undo all that has been done, is not realistic given the history and vitriol between these 2 groups 

This is the thing I hear alot of "both sides are at fault"

 

Personally, I don't feel like both the colonial settlers in Canada and the indigenous peoples were "both at fault"

 

Its pretty clear to me that the colonial settlers were entirely at fault, and having spent time in Palestine, the issue looks exactly the same to me. 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

4 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

That didn't work very well for South Korea over 70 years ago.

 

How about a large UN peace keeping force that is stationed there indefinitely? 

I think it works here with some mutually assured destruction elements. Palestine would have to have a collective defence agreement with the other arab countries. 

 

Its not perfect but there will never be an armed palestinian state, the amount of land in question is simply too small. An armed palestinian state would represent an existential threat to Israel. 

 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

anyway i said id stop talkingabout this like an hour ago, now i actually will cause this makes me really sad.

 

back to hockey and the shrine of loui eriksson

 

*mutes thread*

[BlockerHigh]

2 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeergh said:

This is the thing I hear alot of "both sides are at fault"

 

Personally, I don't feel like both the colonial settlers in Canada and the indigenous peoples were "both at fault"

 

Its pretty clear to me that the colonial settlers were entirely at fault, and having spent time in Palestine, the issue looks exactly the same to me. 

I don’t think you’re getting my point 

 

I don’t think many people would argue from a moral standpoint the Palestinians are the ones who were the victims here from the outset 

 

the point is since then, regardless of “starting positions” both sides have committed atrocities that have fomented the war, thus the willingness for both sides to be reasonable is not there 

 

and Israel isn’t just going to back out 

 

you’re having a moral debate here, I’m not 

 

my point was again, about pragmatic solutions given the history here 

[eeeeeeeeergh]

7 minutes ago, BlockerHigh said:

I don’t think you’re getting my point 

 

I don’t think many people would argue from a moral standpoint the Palestinians are the ones who were the victims here from the outset 

 

the point is since then, regardless of “starting positions” both sides have committed atrocities that have fomented the war, thus the willingness for both sides to be reasonable is not there 

 

and Israel isn’t just going to back out 

 

you’re having a moral debate here, I’m not 

 

my point was again, about pragmatic solutions given the history here 

i get your point but a pragmatic solution means someone needs to compromise

 

what do palestinians have left to compromise with? they have nothing left to give. theyve lost their land, and more of the west bank is being settled everyday. They have nothing that Israel wants, other than to "stop fighting". Its not like the palestinians are sitting on any bargaining chips they can trade with. 

 

So the pragmatic solution/compromise is probably something like: ceasefire in exchange for a week of peace talks, and ceasefire continues if theres a settlement freeze and complete non-military goods are allowed to be imported into gaza. 

 

the sad thing is - hamas knew exactly how israel was going to respond, and its going to be a massive disproportionate response. Israel is probably going to carpet bomb the living daylights out of Gaza and accelerate even more settlements. My guess is Hamas is banking on the response sparking some moral outrage from the rest of the world which might force Israel back to the table. Either way, a lot of people are going to die

[Ilunga]

I won't even bother with international sources, the UN and amnesty international amongst others.

 

These are Isreali politician's, including two ex PM's, Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert.

Prominent officials, ex chief of Mossad, Tamir Pardo, all state that Isreal practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people.

 

The former speaker of the Isreali parliament Avraham Burg, the renowned Isreali historian Benny Morris are among more than 2000 Isreali and American public figures who have signed a recent public statement declaring that " Palestinians live under an arpartheid regime "

 B'Tselm, an Israeli human rights organisation, states Isreal is practising arpartheid on the Palestinian people

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposing-apartheid-on-palestinians-says-former-mossad-chief

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid

 

 

So are these people anti - Semites ?

 

 

[King Heffy]

20 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

That didn't work very well for South Korea over 70 years ago.

 

How about a large UN peace keeping force that is stationed there indefinitely? 

I think that's the only possible solution going forward.  Instead of arguing over whose fault it is, we need to be looking at a lasting solution.  Both sides are at fault but I can't blame Israel for responding to this barbaric attack the way they are.

[eeeeeeeeergh]

8 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

I won't even bother with international sources, the UN and amnesty international amongst others.

 

These are Isreali politician's, including two ex PM's, Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert.

Prominent officials, ex chief of Mossad, Tamir Pardo, all state that Isreal practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people.

 

The former speaker of the Isreali parliament Avraham Burg, the renowned Isreali historian Benny Morris are among more than 2000 Isreali and American public figures who have signed a recent public statement declaring that " Palestinians live under an arpartheid regime "

 B'Tselm, an Israeli human rights organisation, states Isreal is practising arpartheid on the Palestinian people

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposing-apartheid-on-palestinians-says-former-mossad-chief

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid

 

 

So are these people anti - Semites ?

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

I won't even bother with international sources, the UN and amnesty international amongst others.

 

These are Isreali politician's, including two ex PM's, Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert.

Prominent officials, ex chief of Mossad, Tamir Pardo, all state that Isreal practices arpartheid on the Palestinian people.

 

The former speaker of the Isreali parliament Avraham Burg, the renowned Isreali historian Benny Morris are among more than 2000 Isreali and American public figures who have signed a recent public statement declaring that " Palestinians live under an arpartheid regime "

 B'Tselm, an Israeli human rights organisation, states Isreal is practising arpartheid on the Palestinian people

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/05/amnesty-israel-apartheid-israeli-politicians-agree

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposing-apartheid-on-palestinians-says-former-mossad-chief

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid

 

 

So are these people anti - Semites ?

 

 

yep. anyone whos done any serious study for more than the past 24 hours has arrived at this conclusion, its not a controversial take

 

it only seems controversial because people just discovered the conflict 5 minutes ago and are taking their cues from our political leaders, who are saying the strategically expedient thing.