Bob Long Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 6 minutes ago, moosehead said: The UN created this conflict It is time for UN to negotiate a solution to this conflict now. Not sure how you do that when one negotiation partner wants you dead at all costs. Not sure how this gets resolved until Hamas no longer represents Gaza. If the result of this conflict is a new legitimate Gaza government structure then maybe what you are suggesting could happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Not sure how you do that when one negotiation partner wants you dead at all costs. Not sure how this gets resolved until Hamas no longer represents Gaza. If the result of this conflict is a new legitimate Gaza government structure then maybe what you are suggesting could happen. Don't kid yourself... both sides want the other side dead. Or at least lock in a cage for generations, some kind of horrible social experiment. Agreed - a solution will be difficult. It will require both sides to make compromise and will need the international community to apply pressure to both sides . Edited October 16, 2023 by moosehead 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Just now, moosehead said: Don't kid yourself... both sides want the other side dead. Agreed - a solution will be difficult. It will require both sides to make compromise and will need the international community to apply pressure to both sides . Just like we would if Canada has a terrorist group bent on ending us. Imagine if the FLQ had taken over Quebec somehow back in the 70s. There would be zero chance at peace. Hopefully Palestinians turf Hamas as their representatives because I have no hope for them until that happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Bob Long said: Just like we would if Canada has a terrorist group bent on ending us. Imagine if the FLQ had taken over Quebec somehow back in the 70s. There would be zero chance at peace. Hopefully Palestinians turf Hamas as their representatives because I have no hope for them until that happens. French Canadians were not all locked in a cage and denied basic human rights. Different situation. Canada has always treated french canadians decently, so that is why FLQ really had no future at any time. Israel needs to treat the cause and not the symptoms - i know you like med sciences.... LOL Edited October 16, 2023 by moosehead 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, moosehead said: French Canadians were not all locked in a cage and denied basic human rights. Different situation. Canada has always treated french canadians decently, so that is why FLQ really had no future at any time. Israel needs to treat the cause and not the symptoms. People have been able to leave Gaza since 2007. It's clearly been more difficult but again, look at Hamas for what it is. You can't negotiate honestly with a group like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 I disagree that everyone on both sides want each other dead. Yeah, maybe some do, but not all Israelis nor Palestinians think that way. This video is 5 years old, but it seems to be truthful: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 1 minute ago, Heretic said: I disagree that everyone on both sides want each other dead. Yeah, maybe some do, but not all Israelis nor Palestinians think that way. This video is 5 years old, but it seems to be truthful: I'm not talking about everyone, just Hamas. Their intentions are quite clear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 8 minutes ago, Bob Long said: People have been able to leave Gaza since 2007. It's clearly been more difficult but again, look at Hamas for what it is. You can't negotiate honestly with a group like that. False Since 2007, Israeli authorities have, with narrow exceptions, banned Palestinians from leaving through Erez, the passenger crossing from Gaza into Israel, through which they can reach the West Bank and travel abroad via Jordan. Israel also prevents Palestinian authorities from operating an airport or seaport in Gaza. Israeli authorities also sharply restrict the entry and exit of goods. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, moosehead said: False Since 2007, Israeli authorities have, with narrow exceptions, banned Palestinians from leaving through Erez, the passenger crossing from Gaza into Israel, through which they can reach the West Bank and travel abroad via Jordan. Israel also prevents Palestinian authorities from operating an airport or seaport in Gaza. Israeli authorities also sharply restrict the entry and exit of goods. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15 They have a border with Egypt. Read the whole story you just posted. Edited October 16, 2023 by Bob Long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 3 minutes ago, Bob Long said: They have a border with Egypt. Read the whole story you just posted. Movement of people to Israel and the West Bank Palestinians are banned from leaving Gaza via Israel, including for passage to the West Bank, unless they obtained an Israeli-issued exit permit. Only those belonging to certain categories, primarily traders (de facto daily laborers), patients and their accompaniers, and aid workers, can apply for such a permit. Other people are not eligible for a permit even if, according to the Israeli authorities, they do not pose a security risk, according to the Israeli authorities. In most cases, the Israeli authorities do not provide specific reasons for the rejection of an application. If an application is approved, the permit holder may travel through the Israeli-controlled Erez crossing, which operates during the daytime, from Sunday to Thursday, and on Fridays, for urgent cases and foreign nationals only. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/movement-and-out-gaza-update-covering-january-2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, Bob Long said: They have a border with Egypt. Read the whole story you just posted. Egypt controls how many Palestinians that allowed through their crossing. Not as simple as you are making it out to be.... Movement of people to Egypt Palestinians wishing to leave Gaza via Egypt must register with the local Palestinian authorities between two to four weeks in advance. People may also apply directly with the Egyptian authorities, using the services of a private company. The procedures and decisions by both authorities lack transparency. Those approved, may leave through the Rafah Crossing, which operates from Sundays to Thursdays. The journey to Cairo via the Sinai desert is often long and includes multiple stops for checks by Egyptian security forces. The Egyptian authorities allowed about 9,900 exits in January (some travelers may have exited multiple times). This was slightly less than in December, but over 18 per cent above the monthly average in 2021. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/movement-and-out-gaza-update-covering-january-2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, moosehead said: Egypt controls how many Palestinians that allowed through their crossing. Not as simple as you are making it out to be.... Movement of people to Egypt Palestinians wishing to leave Gaza via Egypt must register with the local Palestinian authorities between two to four weeks in advance. People may also apply directly with the Egyptian authorities, using the services of a private company. The procedures and decisions by both authorities lack transparency. Those approved, may leave through the Rafah Crossing, which operates from Sundays to Thursdays. The journey to Cairo via the Sinai desert is often long and includes multiple stops for checks by Egyptian security forces. The Egyptian authorities allowed about 9,900 exits in January (some travelers may have exited multiple times). This was slightly less than in December, but over 18 per cent above the monthly average in 2021. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/movement-and-out-gaza-update-covering-january-2022 I never said it was simple, I said it was difficult but possible. And why is Egypt being so restrictive? No one is happy with how the average Palestinian has been living. Most Israelis want a two state solution. But what is it you think Hamas and Iran want? Do you think they working towards a free and democratic Palestine that could be a viable neighbour to Israel? or are they exactly what they state that they themselves are, a group bent on destroying Israel? None of this is easy, but as long as Hamas is the group representing Gaza nothing will get better. Edited October 16, 2023 by Bob Long 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanPer Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 7 hours ago, Sharpshooter said: @RomanPer doesn’t have any exclusivity on the ‘truth’ about anything, just because he says it. He usually backs it up though. Everyone is free to provide posts that show he’s/shes factually incorrect/correct. Folks are free to demonstrate why they think they know a thing or two about a thing or two. I know what I'm going to do from now on in this thread. When I have some new information, I will post it with the word "I think" or "I believe". Then it becomes an opinion rather than a fact 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 30 minutes ago, moosehead said: Egypt controls how many Palestinians that allowed through their crossing. Not as simple as you are making it out to be.... Is that Israel's fault? Who's fault is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROCKNROLL Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Bob Long said: I'm not talking about everyone, just Hamas. Their intentions are quite clear. Israel government has consistently and openly stated to wanting to wipe palestiniens out. Their intention is clear also. Edited October 16, 2023 by BROCKNROLL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 1 hour ago, Bob Long said: Just like we would if Canada has a terrorist group bent on ending us. Imagine if the FLQ had taken over Quebec somehow back in the 70s. There would be zero chance at peace. Hopefully Palestinians turf Hamas as their representatives because I have no hope for them until that happens. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 1 minute ago, BROCKNROLL said: Israel government has consistently and openly stated to wanting to wipe palestiniens out. Their intention is clear also. Hamas yes, the Palestinian people? no. Maybe some radicals but thats never been official policy. If Israel wanted to they could have done that many times over by now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 2 minutes ago, Heretic said: Is that Israel's fault? Who's fault is it? to be fair, the Israelis took their land and then restricted their movement. So while nothing would be Israel's fault on the Egyptian border, except for the fact that Israel's actions have turned Palestinians into very poor people that are trying to flee the country. So Egypt likely is left with no choice but to restrict access of the border. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROCKNROLL Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Just now, Bob Long said: Hamas yes, the Palestinian people? no. Maybe some radicals but thats never been official policy. If Israel wanted to they could have done that many times over by now. You’re wrong. It’s their official mandate. They’ve stated as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROCKNROLL Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 1 minute ago, Bob Long said: Hamas yes, the Palestinian people? no. Maybe some radicals but thats never been official policy. If Israel wanted to they could have done that many times over by now. They have been slowly doing it for decades. This is another opportunity to achieve their disgusting goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 2 minutes ago, BROCKNROLL said: You’re wrong. It’s their official mandate. They’ve stated as such. OK can you post the official policy for this? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 4 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: to be fair, the Israelis took their land and then restricted their movement. kind of like Canada did with first nations people? 4 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: So while nothing would be Israel's fault on the Egyptian border, except for the fact that Israel's actions have turned Palestinians into very poor people that are trying to flee the country. So Egypt likely is left with no choice but to restrict access of the border. I just keep coming back to the fact that there can't be negotiation with Hamas. I'm hoping that the result of all this is the Palestinians get a group in that can actually help bring them peace and a new democracy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Bob Long said: kind of like Canada did with first nations people? I just keep coming back to the fact that there can't be negotiation with Hamas. I'm hoping that the result of all this is the Palestinians get a group in that can actually help bring them peace and a new democracy. Yeah exactly like that. I guess the only difference I would say is that it's 2023 so one would hope that we would be acting in the same manner. I do agree Hamas shouldn't be the government at all and Hamas should be stamped out, but they did have a non-terrorist government one time before and the Israelis didn't offer any peace and still took their land. If you are suggesting that maybe the second time would be better. I mean I suppose it's worth a try rather than seeing innocent children dying daily. Edited October 16, 2023 by Ryan Strome 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROCKNROLL Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 1 minute ago, Bob Long said: OK can you post the official policy for this? I’ll leave that up to you. Upto this point, every action Israel has taken supports this mandate to totally and unequivocally get rid of palestiniens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Long Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: Yeah exactly like that. I guess the only difference I would say is that it's 2023 so one would hope that we would be acting in the same manner. I do agree Hamas shouldn't be the government at all and Hamas should likely be stamped out, but they did have a non-terrorist government one time before and the Israelis didn't offer any peace and still took their land. If you are suggesting that maybe the second time would be better. I mean I suppose it's worth a try rather than seeing innocent children dying daily. Its definitely worth trying as many times as it takes. I'd like to think we've advanced as humans but we're just monkeys with matches when it comes down to it most of the time. I think there's been so much "equivalency" talk through all this that maybe people have forgotten what Hamas and Iran hope to install, and it ain't a peaceful democracy. 2 minutes ago, BROCKNROLL said: I’ll leave that up to you. Upto this point, every action Israel has taken supports this mandate to totally and unequivocally get rid of palestiniens. I'd like you to actually back up your statement on official policy please. Edited October 16, 2023 by Bob Long 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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