Hamas attacking Israel

[Warhippy]

2 hours ago, moosehead said:

The UN created this conflict

 

It is time for UN to negotiate a solution to this conflict now.  

The UN looked the other way while the french gave Israeli nuclear weapons programs assistance.

 

the UN has literally no say or power now if they ever did.  They can't stop North Korea and their bumbling idiocy how the hell are they going to stop what might be one of the most intelligent and technically superior armed forces in the world with nuclear arms?

[BROCKNROLL]

12 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Right so you can't.

[Odd.]

7 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I don't have some shared agenda. 

 

Can you explain what kind of government Hamas and Iran would install? Maybe begin with that before making claims on what I think.

Hamas and Iran won’t have a single ounce of power or influence if Palestinians were actually liberated. Palestinians don’t actually represent Hamas and Iran, you do realize that? 

 

Please explain to me why Hamas or Iran would have any influence on a Palestinian state with a stable government, a defined territory, free of intervention from any country, and a permanent population? You don’t actually think Hamas would be running things right? 
 

What do you think Palestinians should do? Assimilate towards a country who put apartheid policies that have them displaced into a strip of land in the first place? Do you think the solution would be to have them recognized as Israelis, where they aren’t wanted anyway? What exactly do you think should happen to the 2.2M Palestinians who are set to either be bombed or starved to death. Perhaps let’s start there.

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, Ryan Strome said:

 to be fair, the Israelis took their land and then restricted their movement. So while nothing would be Israel's fault on the Egyptian border, except for the fact that Israel's actions have turned Palestinians into very poor people that are trying to flee the country. So Egypt likely is left with no choice but to restrict access of the border.

With this in the air, one also has to remember that this is essentially looking to your neighbour and saying out right, like it or not.  We're shoving 2 MILLION people with nothing but the clothing on their backs in to your nation.  You will have to feed and shelter and care for them and the only other alternative is mass casualties in the conflict which will be your fault because you could have let them in but didn't.

Good luck

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, Odd. said:

Calling out Israel is anti semitism now. 

Happened to me yesterday.

one poster refuses to answer whether they believe opposition to Israeli policy regarding Palestine is the same as anti-semitism so you know where it is.

 

Much like saying something like 

• I do not support the riots caused by the anger regarding the BLM protests:  You don't like black people
• I have never voted conservative: Oh so all conservatives are nazis now?
• I don't agree with teaching my kids about sexy things in school.  So you hate the LGBTQ community
• I support SOGI and gender inclusivity in our schools:  Oh so you like pedos near kids

 

Sadly, any time you make any level of statement regarding an issue regarding emotional or vested interests in a polarizing subject the massive jump to the irrational is the only logical step for some people.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Warhippy

[Provost]

14 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I don't have some shared agenda. 

 

Can you explain what kind of government Hamas and Iran would install? Maybe begin with that before making claims on what I think.

You could read the Hamas Charter... it states that the creation of a Palestinian State along the lines of the 1967 borders (which are the internationally recognized ones... not invented) is the aim.

It says that it would never officially recognize Israel's occupation of their land.  Very much like Israel has never officially recognized Palestine as existing and entire set of policies around that are to deny the formation of a Palestinian state.  The official position of Hamas is for the two states to exist on internationally recognized borders but officially ignore each other as a matter of legal principle. 

It also very clearly indicates that it is not a war against Judaism, but of Zionism.  Jews fled to the region in the 1900's for safety from European persecution.... not Arab or Palestinian persecution.  The region was officially polytheistic practicing of the Jewish faith was accepted.  Islam considers Jews and Christians as "People of the book".  I don't know many ultra-orthodox Muslims, but the ones I know actually eat Kosher food often as it is hard to find certified Halal food in comparison.  They will eat Kosher meat as it follows the same requirements as Halal, animals butchered must be prayed over by "people of the book" which doesn't discriminate between Muslim/Jewish/Christian prayer. 

If you read all three holy books you will be shocked at how similar they are.  It is the exact same creation story, and similar viewpoints... just with different spins and interpretations.  

 

[Warhippy]

30 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Hamas and Iran won’t have a single ounce of power or influence if Palestinians were actually liberated. Palestinians don’t actually represent Hamas and Iran, you do realize that? 

 

Please explain to me why Hamas or Iran would have any influence on a Palestinian state with a stable government, a defined territory, free of intervention from any country, and a permanent population? You don’t actually think Hamas would be running things right? 
 

What do you think Palestinians should do? Assimilate towards a country who put apartheid policies that have them displaced into a strip of land in the first place? Do you think the solution would be to have them recognized as Israelis, where they aren’t wanted anyway? What exactly do you think should happen to the 2.2M Palestinians who are set to either be bombed or starved to death. Perhaps let’s start there.

Let's ask the other question.

 

What makes you think Iran would NOT have an external series of forces, pressures or controls over Hamas/Palestine if Palestinians were actually liberated?

 

Iranian interests have funded and armed insurgents, or hamas or hezbollah or whoever for decades.  They are still run by or controlled in policy in part by the religious ruling class who have a dedicated statement about the removal of Israel from existence.

 

With arms, funding and a religious backing one has to wonder how they wouldn't have that level of external influence in this instance.

[Bob Long]

56 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Hamas and Iran won’t have a single ounce of power or influence if Palestinians were actually liberated. Palestinians don’t actually represent Hamas and Iran, you do realize that? 

 

Please explain to me why Hamas or Iran would have any influence on a Palestinian state with a stable government, a defined territory, free of intervention from any country, and a permanent population? You don’t actually think Hamas would be running things right? 
 

What do you think Palestinians should do? Assimilate towards a country who put apartheid policies that have them displaced into a strip of land in the first place? Do you think the solution would be to have them recognized as Israelis, where they aren’t wanted anyway? What exactly do you think should happen to the 2.2M Palestinians who are set to either be bombed or starved to death. Perhaps let’s start there.

 

Who is in control of Gaza?

[Bob Long]

34 minutes ago, Provost said:

You could read the Hamas Charter... it states that the creation of a Palestinian State along the lines of the 1967 borders (which are the internationally recognized ones... not invented) is the aim.

It says that it would never officially recognize Israel's occupation of their land.  Very much like Israel has never officially recognized Palestine as existing and entire set of policies around that are to deny the formation of a Palestinian state.  The official position of Hamas is for the two states to exist on internationally recognized borders but officially ignore each other as a matter of legal principle. 

It also very clearly indicates that it is not a war against Judaism, but of Zionism.  Jews fled to the region in the 1900's for safety from European persecution.... not Arab or Palestinian persecution.  The region was officially polytheistic practicing of the Jewish faith was accepted.  Islam considers Jews and Christians as "People of the book".  I don't know many ultra-orthodox Muslims, but the ones I know actually eat Kosher food often as it is hard to find certified Halal food in comparison.  They will eat Kosher meat as it follows the same requirements as Halal, animals butchered must be prayed over by "people of the book" which doesn't discriminate between Muslim/Jewish/Christian prayer. 

If you read all three holy books you will be shocked at how similar they are.  It is the exact same creation story, and similar viewpoints... just with different spins and interpretations.  

 

 

None of this gives me any confidence that Hamas will be good for Palestinians.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

You don't say

Seems this isn't exactly a new development though.  Israeli policy has been very VERY clear about this over the past 6 decades

 

 

it would be interesting to see a map like that for every G20 country. 

[CBH1926]

59 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Hamas and Iran won’t have a single ounce of power or influence if Palestinians were actually liberated. Palestinians don’t actually represent Hamas and Iran, you do realize that? 

 

Please explain to me why Hamas or Iran would have any influence on a Palestinian state with a stable government, a defined territory, free of intervention from any country, and a permanent population? You don’t actually think Hamas would be running things right? 
 

What do you think Palestinians should do? Assimilate towards a country who put apartheid policies that have them displaced into a strip of land in the first place? Do you think the solution would be to have them recognized as Israelis, where they aren’t wanted anyway? What exactly do you think should happen to the 2.2M Palestinians who are set to either be bombed or starved to death. Perhaps let’s start there.

Iran has been arming Hamas for decades, their enemy is Israel so as long as Israel is there and being supported by Iran’s biggest enemy, Iran is not going anywhere.

 

Palestinian refugees in Jordan have had very rough time for decades, Gulf states haven’t helped as much as they could. Palestinians are like Kurds, used by many for political goals, proxy wars etc.

[Ryan Strome]

11 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

Iran has been arming Hamas for decades, their enemy is Israel so as long as Israel is there and being supported by Iran’s biggest enemy, Iran is not going anywhere.

 

Palestinian refugees in Jordan have had very rough time for decades, Gulf states haven’t helped as much as they could. Palestinians are like Kurds, used by many for political goals, proxy wars etc.

There needs to be an unbiased player willing to get both sides to sit down and come to some sort of negotiated agreement so we aren't doing this every couple years. That person no offense cannot be the United States. They are not a trusted partner in the middle East. That being said, it also can't be Canada because we are just seen as a smaller version of the United States. Russia has no legitimacy when discussing peace with anybody. So I wonder if there's a European country that might be respected enough to negotiate a peace agreement that is able to last.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Ryan Strome

[CBH1926]

1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said:

There needs to be an unbiased player willing to get both sides to sit down and come to some sort of negotiated agreement so we aren't doing this every couple years. That person no offense cannot be the United States. They are not a trusted partner in the middle East. That being said, it also can't be Canada because we are just seen as a smaller version of the United States. Russia has no legitimacy when discussing peace with anybody. So I wonder if there's a European country that might be respected enough to negotiate a peace agreement that is able to last.

The problem is that as you have mentioned, all big powers lack credibility.

Few countries that I feel are truly impartial like Sweden, Norway, Switzerland etc. lack the “muscle” to get it done and truth be told, big powers are needed to make guarantees which brings us to square one.

[Ryan Strome]

Just now, CBH1926 said:

The problem is that as you have mentioned, all big powers lack credibility.

Few countries that I feel are truly impartial like Sweden, Norway, Switzerland etc. lack the “muscle” to get it done and truth be told, big powers are needed to make guarantees which brings us to square one.

Ya good point. 

[Coconuts]

11 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

There needs to be an unbiased player willing to get both sides to sit down and come to some sort of negotiated agreement so we aren't doing this every couple years. That person no offense cannot be the United States. They are not a trusted partner in the middle East. That being said, it also can't be Canada because we are just seen as a smaller version of the United States. Russia has no legitimacy when discussing peace with anybody. So I wonder if there's a European country that might be respected enough to negotiate a peace agreement that is able to last.

 

The US can't be trusted at all when it comes to geopolitics, they've meddled for years and others pay the price. They're alsp too enmeshed with Israel, sending them billions every year. Canada doesn't have the clout to do it even we weren't historically tethered to the US. But you've said this. 

 

I don't know, I don't think a single country could fix anything. I don't think peace is enforceable and the larger, more powerful players have already taken sides. I don't think there's a simple or easy solution, that's part of what spurs the perceived conflict in this thread. That and the history of both sides.

 

This thread will probably be like CDC's God thread and eventually be shut down after it gets a bunch of people banned. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Coconuts

[Optimist Prime]

War of Independance: '47 - '49, the arab leage invaded former Mandatory Palestine including the Holy War Army of Palestine. Israel won this war and in the armistice agreements caputured 50% of the area alloted to an 'arab state'. 

 

Six Day War: '67, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia Kuwait and Lebanon, Palestinians, along with Pakistan were readying for war when Egypt closed the Strait of Tiran to Israeli shipping. Israel struck first, in the end Israel captured the Gaza Strip, Sinai, West Bank and Golan Heights.

 

War of Attrition: '67 to 70, both sides claimed victory however Israel continued to own the Sinai

 

Yom Kippur War: '73, Arab entities invaded Israel, victory was Israel's and led to the Egypt-Israeli Peace Treaty

 

Operation Litani: '78, the PLO terror group in southern Lebannon was dealt with by combined forces of Israel and Lebanese De Facto Forces. Israel victorious and PLO retreated from Southern Lebanon.

 

First Lebanon War: '82-85, PLO, Syria, "Jammoul" (eventually hezbollah) and Lebanese Shia Amal's fought the Lebanese De Facto Forces, the lebanese Front and Israel. as a result the PLO was expelled from Lebanon. 

 

First Intifada: '87-'93,  Hamas and UNLU (coalition of Palestinian Leadership) '87-'93, began a campaign of sending people with rocks and slings up against a modern army, with some suicide bombers to sew terror in the region by blowing up buses and gatherings. The resulting international media coverage of the Flintstones being beat down by the Jetsons created a PR victory for Hamas. THe PLO was caught off guard and was not at first involved in the Hamas and UNLU plans.

the Oslo Accord was drafted, a so called road map to peace with Palestinians.

 

2nd Intifada: 2000-2005, Palestinian Uprising against Israeli's, who under Ariel Sharon defeated Hamas and the Palestinian Authority.

 

Operation Cast Lead; '08-'09, Hamas indescriminate rocket fire from Gaza was becoming frequent and the operatoin reduced Hamas ability to fight from apartment rooftops in Gaza proper. 

 

Operation Pillar of Defense; 2012, Israel was determined to end Hamas rocket fire from Gaza into civilian centers Israel VS Hamas with no interveners. Hamas lost and rocket fire into Israel was stopped for a few years.

 

Operation Protective Edge; 2014, Israeli intel discovered credible threats evolving out of Hamas war tunnels in Gaza where weapons of war were being built and stockpiled, Israel managed to destroy many tunnels and the arms cache's therein under Gaza Strip.

 

Israel - Palestine Crisis; 10 May 2021 to 21 May 2021, hamas Rocket attacks on Israel from Hamas led to 11 days of conflict and then a ceasefire. Reportedly the Rocket Attacks were in anticipation of a Supreme Court ruling on a housing eviction involving six Palestinian families near Jerusalem.

 

and that brings us largely to the events of ten days ago.

 

 

 

Why did I bother to type all this out? Because some folks have decided to ignore who has started hostile actions and murderous activities in almost every single case: I have said it before: when you start war after war after war and win NONE of them, there are consequences and they are not pleasant. I can think of no people in history who have lost wars they started and came out better off than before they started them.

 

I just think a recap was in order.

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

War of Independance: '47 - '49, the arab leage invaded former Mandatory Palestine including the Holy War Army of Palestine. Israel won this war and in the armistice agreements caputured 50% of the area alloted to an 'arab state'. 

 

Six Day War: '67, again arab entities attacked Israel, in the end Israel captured the Gaza Strip, Sinai, West Bank and Golan Heights.

 

War of Attrition: '67 to 70, both sides claimed victory however Israel continued to own the Sinai

 

Yom Kippur War: '73, Arab entities invaded Israel, victory was Israel's and led to the Egypt-Israeli Peace Treaty

 

Operation Litani: '78, the PLO terror group in southern Lebannon was dealt with by combined forces of Israel and Lebanese De Facto Forces. Israel victorious and PLO retreated from Southern Lebanon.

 

First Lebanon War: '82-85, PLO, Syria, "Jammoul" (eventually hezbollah) and Lebanese Shia Amal's fought the Lebanese De Facto Forces, the lebanese Front and Israel. as a result the PLO was expelled from Lebanon. 

 

First Intifada: '87-'93,  Hamas and UNLU (coalition of Palestinian Leadership) '87-'93, began a campaign of sending people with rocks and slings up against a modern army, with some suicide bombers to sew terror in the region by blowing up buses and gatherings. The resulting international media coverage of the Flintstones being beat down by the Jetsons created a PR victory for Hamas. THe PLO was caught off guard and was not at first involved in the Hamas and UNLU plans.

the Oslo Accord was drafted, a so called road map to peace with Palestinians.

 

2nd Intifada: 2000-2005, Palestinian Uprising against Israeli's, who under Ariel Sharon defeated Hamas and the Palestinian Authority.

 

Operation Cast Lead; '08-'09, Hamas indescriminate rocket fire from Gaza was becoming frequent and the operatoin reduced Hamas ability to fight from apartment rooftops in Gaza proper. 

 

Operation Pillar of Defense; 2012, Israel was determined to end Hamas rocket fire from Gaza into civilian centers Israel VS Hamas with no interveners. Hamas lost and rocket fire into Israel was stopped for a few years.

 

Operation Protective Edge; 2014, Israeli intel discovered credible threats evolving out of Hamas war tunnels in Gaza where weapons of war were being built and stockpiled, Israel managed to destroy many tunnels and the arms cache's therein under Gaza Strip.

 

Israel - Palestine Crisis; 10 May 2021 to 21 May 2021, hamas Rocket attacks on Israel from Hamas led to 11 days of conflict and then a ceasefire. Reportedly the Rocket Attacks were in anticipation of a Supreme Court ruling on a housing eviction involving six Palestinian families near Jerusalem.

 

and that brings us largely to the events of ten days ago.

 

 

 

Why did I bother to type all this out? Because some folks have decided to ignore who has started hostile actions and murderous activities in almost every single case: I have said it before: when you start war after war after war and win NONE of them, there are consequences and they are not pleasant. I can think of no people in history who have lost wars they started and came out better off than before they started them.

 

I just think a recap was in order.

I have no idea where you learn that but the six-day war was preemptedly started by Israel.

[Optimist Prime]

2 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

I have no idea where you learn that but the six-day war was preemptedly started by Israel.

My apologies: Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia Kuwait and Lebanon along with Pakistan were readying for war when Egypt closed the Strait of Tiran to Israeli shipping. Israel struck first, you are correct, my mistake in trying to go fast.

[The Arrogant Worms]

70% chance Israel-Hamas war spreads beyond Gaza, threatening oil, strategist warns

 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/70-chance-israel-hamas-war-spreads-beyond-gaza-threatening-oil-strategist-warns-69ae7b8e

[Optimist Prime]

9 minutes ago, The Arrogant Worms said:

70% chance Israel-Hamas war spreads beyond Gaza, threatening oil, strategist warns

 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/70-chance-israel-hamas-war-spreads-beyond-gaza-threatening-oil-strategist-warns-69ae7b8e

In the broader brush strokes of international finance: it is in big oil's interest to want to raise prices: Articles such as this do more for that goal than the war spreading.

 

IMO there is a significantly lower risk of a wider war than this headline states. being posted in MarketWatch is a good clue that it is meant to help increase oil price rather than help decipher what is going on in the middle east.

Just my opinion though. 

 

edit: quick google tells me "BCA Research Inc. is an independent provider of global investment research and investment strategy advice" so yeah, this article is all about boostiing portfolio value rather than providing insight into the middle east. 
again my opinion only, driven by a background in communicator research.

 

2nd edit for obviousness: Obviously there is already some localized one off rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from southern lebanon and Southern Syria, these are offhandedly assigned to Hezbollah and the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corp from Iran who are currently in Syria. What I am saying is that it is much less likely than 70% chance that this escalates to a wider conflict in northern Israel/Southern Lebanon/southern Syria. The entities and their resources there that would want to have war with Israel would be exhausted quickly for no gains.

[Coconuts]

8 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

In the broader brush strokes of international finance: it is in big oil's interest to want to raise prices: Articles such as this do more for that goal than the war spreading.

 

IMO there is a significantly lower risk of a wider war than this headline states. being posted in MarketWatch is a good clue that it is meant to help increase oil price rather than help decipher what is going on in the middle east.

Just my opinion though. 

 

edit: quick google tells me "BCA Research Inc. is an independent provider of global investment research and investment strategy advice" so yeah, this article is all about boostiing portfolio value rather than providing insight into the middle east. 
again my opinion only, driven by a background in communicator research.

 

2nd edit for obviousness: Obviously there is already some localized one off rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from southern lebanon and Southern Syria, these are offhandedly assigned to Hezbollah and the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corp from Iran who are currently in Syria. What I am saying is that it is much less likely than 70% chance that this escalates to a wider conflict in northern Israel/Southern Lebanon/southern Syria. The entities and their resources there that would want to have war with Israel would be exhausted quickly for no gains.

 

Pretty much. How many times over the last couple decades have consumers been fucked over at the gas pump because of tensions in x or y? Oil companies will do whatever they can to extract more money from the general public. Which sucks, because costs of living are nuts and we're being gouged more post-Covid than ever. 

[Warhippy]

58 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

it would be interesting to see a map like that for every G20 country. 

Very easy to see and find.

 

Turns out.  Borders for almost every G20 nation haven't really moved at all

[Warhippy]

38 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I have said it before: when you start war after war after war and win NONE of them, there are consequences and they are not pleasant. I can think of no people in history who have lost wars they started and came out better off than before they started them.

 

I just think a recap was in order.

*Taps my fingers in Ojibwe first Nations*

 

You don't say

Edited October 16, 2023 by Warhippy

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Very easy to see and find.

 

Turns out.  Borders for almost every G20 nation haven't really moved at all

 

You mean recently, right?

[Ryan Strome]

6 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

You mean recently, right?

Just so I fully understand, what is the point you are trying to make? Because I mean, Ukraine is historically part of the Russian Empire, but I don't think any of us would agree It's okay what Putin is doing. While borders certainly have changed. I would like to think that in 2023 we have better understanding and recognition of borders and land rights.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Ryan Strome