Hamas attacking Israel

[moosehead]

3 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

100%, the Palestinians deserve a chance at a real democracy. 

 

If Hamas had just chosen military targets, e.g., maybe they could have made a better point? but being butchers just shows what they are. 

who here has defended hamas recent terrorist acts ?  I dont see anyone defending their despicable acts ?

 

 

understanding their anger is not condoning their terrorism 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by moosehead

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

Just so I fully understand, what is the point you are trying to make? Because I mean, Ukraine is historically part of the Russian Empire, but I don't think any of us would agree It's okay what Putin is doing. While borders certainly have changed. I would like to think that in 2023 we have better understanding and recognition of borders and land rights.

 

the point is, historically we've recognized that in war, the winning side sets the boundaries. Sometimes its negotiated at the time of defeat, but new borders are accepted. We may have to face that reality in Ukraine too. 

 

I've noticed a bit of a trend that the land Israel acquired during the wars noted above that its somehow not legitimate land acquisition. Not sure how we square that with accepted norms over history. 

 

As much as I'm sure you'd like to see us give Quebec back to France, I don't think thats happening. 

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

who here has defended hamas recent terrorist acts ? 

This is what I'm struggling with by the pro Israeli camp. I can't find anybody in here. Supporting Hamas terrorist attack. I almost feel like that's just a way to disguise a one-sided view on this whole matter by just taking Israel side.

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

who here has defended hamas recent terrorist acts ? 

 

implicitly, there are a few. It happens in the false equivalence arguments a lot. 

[Bob Long]

Just now, Ryan Strome said:

This is what I'm struggling with by the pro Israeli camp. I can't find anybody in here. Supporting Hamas terrorist attack. I almost feel like that's just a way to disguise a one-sided view on this whole matter by just taking Israel side.

 

I think it can be implied in the "yeah but what do you expect" arguments about the nature of Palestine, It may not be what people are intending tho. 

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

understanding their anger is not condoning their terrorism 

 

 

for sure. Its one of the reasons I want to see them out from under Hamas, and building an actual democracy. 

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

the point is, historically we've recognized that in war, the winning side sets the boundaries. Sometimes its negotiated at the time of defeat, but new borders are accepted. We may have to face that reality in Ukraine too. 

 

I've noticed a bit of a trend that the land Israel acquired during the wars noted above that its somehow not legitimate land acquisition. Not sure how we square that with accepted norms over history. 

 

As much as I'm sure you'd like to see us give Quebec back to France, I don't think thats happening. 

First and foremost, I just want to say I will pack their bags for Emmanuel!!

 

Secondly, I think I nailed your position and I appreciate you sharing it with me and my only argument to what you were saying is I would hope we have learned from the past and that in 2023 we aren't reshaping borders through aggression. 

 

The reason why I think some would claim the other territorial land grabs are illegal is because they were taken from a preempted strike from Israel. Just like Russia, shouldn't be able to take territory from a preempted strike on Ukraine, nor should Israel on Palestine. Because just so we are abundantly clear many Russians believe that preempted strike on Ukraine was needed because NATO was building up within Ukraine and one could make an argument that was entirely happening. I find it strange why everything is flipped and I'm going to be perfectly honest. The only two things I see different is the religious factor and the fact that one is a Muslim country and one isn't.

 

Truth be told, as you know I am not a fan of the Muslim religion, but I can look past that when it comes to standing up for human dignity and rights and that has been denied to the Palestinians ever since their land was stolen.

[Ryan Strome]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

I think it can be implied in the "yeah but what do you expect" arguments about the nature of Palestine, It may not be what people are intending tho. 

That's a fair point, Bob. That is why I personally I'm choosing to use language like "I fully understand why it happened."

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said:

First and foremost, I just want to say I will pack their bags for Emmanuel!!

 

Secondly, I think I nailed your position and I appreciate you sharing it with me and my only argument to what you were saying is I would hope we have learned from the past and that in 2023 we aren't reshaping borders through aggression. 

 

The reason why I think some would claim the other territorial land grabs are illegal is because they were taken from a preempted strike from Israel. Just like Russia, shouldn't be able to take territory from a preempted strike on Ukraine, nor should Israel on Palestine. Because just so we are abundantly clear many Russians believe that preempted strike on Ukraine was needed because NATO was building up within Ukraine and one could make an argument that was entirely happening. I find it strange why everything is flipped and I'm going to be perfectly honest. The only two things I see different is the religious factor and the fact that one is a Muslim country and one isn't.

 

Truth be told, as you know I am not a fan of the Muslim religion, but I can look past that when it comes to standing up for human dignity and rights and that has been denied to the Palestinians ever since their land was stolen.

 

on the preemptive part re: Israel, I have to wonder tho if they didn't act, do you think an attack wouldn't have been imminent anyway? I'm out of my depth now in terms of historical events - maybe someone here can objectively provide a full explanation. 

 

[Warhippy]

20 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

You mean recently, right?

No I mean in the last 70 years or so.  If that's your definition of recent I mean.  Keeping in mind that most of the major land losses or border changes regarding G20 nations have involved major nations giving up islands or protectorates, enclaves and the like or in the case of Canada adding provinces.

 

Again, fairly easily found.

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

on the preemptive part re: Israel, I have to wonder tho if they didn't act, do you think an attack wouldn't have been imminent anyway? I'm out of my depth now in terms of historical events - maybe someone here can objectively provide a full explanation. 

 

Absolutely! I do think an attack was going to happen. In fact, the top Egyptian general went to the Canadian general of the peacekeeping force that was there and told him to leave because an attack was imminent. I will fully admit the truth that I am 100% certain an attack was going to happen but the point I'm trying to make is that is what many Russians believed as well. An attack was going to happen on their land. So to me it's not black and white and land that isn't Israeli land should just be returned Hamas defeated and a negotiated long lasting peace. I fully understand That's wishful thinking at this point.

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

Absolutely! I do think an attack was going to happen. In fact, the top Egyptian general went to the Canadian general of the peacekeeping force that was there and told him to leave because an attack was imminent. I will fully admit the truth that I am 100% certain an attack was going to happen but the point I'm trying to make is that is what many Russians believed as well. An attack was going to happen on their land. So to me it's not black and white and land that isn't Israeli land should just be returned Hamas defeated and a negotiated long lasting peace. I fully understand That's wishful thinking at this point.

 

Thanks. I think the big difference here is we can see Pooty is full of it, making stuff up as he goes. Does it matter if a lot of Russians believe it? 

 

I agree totally on the negotiated peace part. Just don't think thats ever possible now with Hamas. So until the Palestinians bring in a new government, thats just not  in the cards. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Bob Long

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

Thanks. I think the big difference here is we can see Pooty is full of it, making stuff up as he goes. Does it matter if a lot of Russians believe it? 

 

I agree totally on the negotiated peace part. Just don't think thats ever possible now with Hamas. So until the Palestinians bring in a new government, thats just not  in the cards. 

So then ground invasion followed by a likely full-on military occupation. So as far as terrorist attacks go on Israelis, it's probably rinse and Repeat.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Ryan Strome said:

So then ground invasion followed by a likely full-on military occupation. So as far as terrorist attacks go on Israelis, it's probably rinse and Repeat.

 

maybe a brief occupation? I can't see the US supporting anything that has significant time scale to it. If the IDF is satisfied they've flushed out and eliminated Hamas then they'll probably leave. At least I hope so.

 

 

[Ryan Strome]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

maybe a brief occupation? I can't see the US supporting anything that has significant time scale to it. If the IDF is satisfied they've flushed out and eliminated Hamas then they'll probably leave. At least I hope so.

 

 

I don't know man. In the past 80 years they haven't showed a willingness to want to leave.

[Optimist Prime]

31 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

*Taps my fingers in Ojibwe first Nations*

 

You don't say

I am not totally sure of your exact point, but your inference is a good one. The First Nations of Canada, by and large did not start wars that they then lost. There were some fights clearly, but my understanding is most first Nations in Canada signed treaties nation to nation, but back east before that, there was a terrible genocide. I don't know too much specificly about the Ojibwe or Cree, that is my bad, but I am learning through a great series called Nations At War on APTN network. 

 

I can't really speak to it, as I am still learning the truth in our history in Canada. I know that the Beothuk people were hunted to extinction by settlers in what is now Newfoundland, which is the exact definition of Genocide. I know the Anishinaabe (spelling mistake is on me) were forced out of their ancestral lands and pushed west, both up and down around the great lakes, displacing more folks who pushed west and south displacing more. I am fairly confident that the nations out west like BC were never so much at war with settlers as signed inherently unbalanced treaties with them. 

I generally believe the Residential School system to have been an extension of Genocide against the peoples of our First nations and we are feeling the effects of that genocide to this day in every community in Canada. 

 

I simply have to apologize for not being incredibly "up" on events. I try to learn our shared history here from an unbiased approach but a product of public schooling in the 80's; I have limited perspective from my education. 

 

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Ryan Strome said:

I don't know man. In the past 80 years they haven't showed a willingness to want to leave.

when Israel was stomping Syria and came to the outskirts of Damascus they just stopped short. They were winning every engagment and battle along the way and collectively concluded that occupying a city of millions of Arabs was something they had no interest in taking on. There is a little hut there, South of Damascus that I visited: it being famous in Syria as the final building the Israelis captured before they went home. The artilery unit that fled their pieces of cannon there to this day are shamed in Syrian military culture with a black patch as a part of their crest for fleeing in fear from the Israeli's and allowing their guns to be captured intact. The hut is a bit of a museum now, but I digress...

...I believe the exact interest is to eradicate Hamas and allow Gaza to proceed in a peaceful manner after the conflict. Obviously I don't know, but the history of the situation in its entirety tells me that Israel has no interest in administering or occupying the 2 million people of Gaza for a long period of time. 

[Bob Long]

6 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

I don't know man. In the past 80 years they haven't showed a willingness to want to leave.

 

well.... <shrugs>.... not sure then. I doubt Israelis want to do this over and over again either.

 

[Ryan Strome]

2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

when Israel was stomping Syria and came to the outskirts of Damascus they just stopped short. They were winning every engagment and battle along the way and collectively concluded that occupying a city of millions of Arabs was something they had no interest in taking on. There is a little hut there, South of Damascus that I visited: it being famous in Syria as the final building the Israelis captured before they went home. The artilery unit that fled their pieces of cannon there to this day are shamed in Syrian military culture with a black patch as a part of their crest for fleeing in fear from the Israeli's and allowing their guns to be captured intact. The hut is a bit of a museum now, but I digress...

...I believe the exact interest is to eradicate Hamas and allow Gaza to proceed in a peaceful manner after the conflict. Obviously I don't know, but the history of the situation in its entirety tells me that Israel has no interest in administering or occupying the 2 million people of Gaza for a long period of time. 

I think you and I have a different interpretation of history. The Israelis only stopped short because the Soviet Union was on the verge of attacking Israel.

[Optimist Prime]

27 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

 land that isn't Israeli land should just be returned Hamas defeated and a negotiated long lasting peace. I fully understand That's wishful thinking at this point.

Can confirm, that will simply not happen, it isn't a reality. That is what makes it so incredibly hard to stomache when the Flintstones truely believe in their heart of hearts that throwing a rock at an Israeli (the Jetsons in my analogy) will have good results for the Gazan. It makes me sad that their leadership pushes for this at every moment, teaching younglings to hate Jews and to believe that the destruction of Israel is a realistic goal with Allah on their side. (worth noting that up until very recently a lot of violent Jihadi's really believed that if their heart was true and their goals pure, then Allah, or God, will guide their bullets to their enemies hearts, and so they never actually believed in aiming a gun or learning how tto fire one under control. We all hear the soundbites that accompany jihadi gunfire 'alaho ackbar' or similar, it is a prayer for god to take conttrol of the bullets that are often just fired in the air. I will totally concede however that the information age has changed that, but in my time in the service, not 20 years ago some jihadi militants were still firing into the air hoping their god would guide the bullets to the jews hearts and heads. it seems madness, but it is documented.

[Optimist Prime]

9 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

I think you and I have a different interpretation of history. The Israelis only stopped short because the Soviet Union was on the verge of attacking Israel.

Forgive me for taking the Syrian gentleman historian's version as correct as corroborated by a friend in the Mossad. You will maybe forgive my years of time spent in the theater both north and south of the Golan region somewhat trumping a random user in a hockey forums take on history.

[Coconuts]

25 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Thanks. I think the big difference here is we can see Pooty is full of it, making stuff up as he goes. Does it matter if a lot of Russians believe it? 

 

I agree totally on the negotiated peace part. Just don't think thats ever possible now with Hamas. So until the Palestinians bring in a new government, thats just not  in the cards. 

 

How? Supported by whom? And where? The Palestinian people appear to be caught between a rock and a hard place regarding Hamas and Israel. 

 

I had a post earlier in this thread getting into why there haven't been many open protests against Hamas, and repeatedly mentioned throughout the articles I shared we references to Hamas shutting down pushback. I don't think I've seen anyone in this thread support what Hamas has been doing, they're clearly part of the problem but there doesn't really appear to be a simple solution. More than likely they'll be difficult to root out. What I have seen understanding as to why there would be pushback and retaliation towards Israel. 

 

Further complicating things are the geopolitics of the region and the hands of other nations, including Russia, the US, and Iran, sticking their fingers in the pie. 

 

Gaza is being shelled, who's going to finance any rebuilding? Who's going to open up their wallet and finance things? Even if a Palestinian government were installed, who's going to stick around to try and ensure things remain stable? Who is actually interested in the Palestinian people enough to offer more than token gestures or thoughts and prayers? I doubt the US or Israel have any interest in propping them up. 

 

It's all such a mess, and that's before you get into history, factions, ideologies, oppression, and the parts each actor has played upon this stage both in the current day and historically. 

[Optimist Prime]

2 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

How? Supported by whom? And where? The Palestinian people appear to be caught between a rock and a hard place regarding Hamas and Israel. 

 

I had a post earlier in this thread getting into why there haven't been many open protests against Hamas, and repeatedly mentioned throughout the articles I shared we references to Hamas shutting down pushback. I don't think I've seen anyone in this thread support what Hamas has been doing, they're clearly part of the problem but there doesn't really appear to be a simple solution. More than likely they'll be difficult to root out. What I have seen understanding as to why there would be pushback and retaliation towards Israel. 

 

Further complicating things are the geopolitics of the region and the hands of other nations, including Russia, the US, and Iran, sticking their fingers in the pie. 

 

Gaza is being shelled, who's going to finance any rebuilding? Who's going to open up their wallet and finance things? Even if a Palestinian government were installed, who's going to stick around to try and ensure things remain stable? Who is actually interested in the Palestinian people enough to offer more than token gestures or thoughts and prayers? I doubt the US or Israel have any interest in propping them up. 

 

It's all such a mess, and that's before you get into history, factions, ideologies, oppression, and the parts each actor has played upon this stage both in the current day and historically. 

Agreed, it is a long hard path to peace, if it was easy it would have been solved 3000 years ago.

 

My hope is that the vast majority of Hamas can be rooted out and either imprisoned or eliminated, and that the people who are governed by them can once again try for peace and prosperity, I fully believe there can be no peace while Hamas governs Gaza.

[Ryan Strome]

9 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Forgive me for taking the Syrian gentleman historian's version as correct as corroborated by a friend in the Mossad. You will maybe forgive my years of time spent in the theater both north and south of the Golan region somewhat trumping a random user in a hockey forums take on history.

Oh but then you don't know if that random person on a hockey forum might have done the same thing as what you just indicated you did. Maybe so, maybe not right? Again, our interpretation of history differs. I didn't criticize you. I just said they differed and I think you should attempt to just leave it at that as well. You have been very pro-israel in this thread and have all about blamed Palestine for everything.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Ryan Strome

[Optimist Prime]

2 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

Oh but then you don't know if that random person on a hockey forum might have done the same thing as what you just indicated you did. Maybe so, maybe not right? Again, our interpretation of history differs. I didn't criticize you. I just said they differed and I think you should attempt to just leave it at that as well. You have been very pro-israel in this thread and have all about blamed Palestine for everything.

I believe I have been extremely pro Peace and Prosperty, make of that what you will. I have noticed though that in multiple threads you make a point of opposition to any post I make, and so I would really just like it if you stopped quoting me or seeking to interact with me at all. it is fruitless. I will try to do the same. Perhaps we can agree to disagree and leave each other alone.