Hamas attacking Israel

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

I believe I have been extremely pro Peace and Prosperty, make of that what you will. I have noticed though that in multiple threads you make a point of opposition to any post I make, and so I would really just like it if you stopped quoting me or seeking to interact with me at all. it is fruitless. I will try to do the same. Perhaps we can agree to disagree and leave each other alone.

Yeah, I can agree with that. But I will say as a point of concern I find it concerning that you are bothered with somebody disagreeing with you. You have made a couple points that I've upvoted so I would disagree with your assessment but my opinion is only my opinion. I do believe in the past I said it would probably be for the best what you are suggesting but I'm not bothered that you disagree with me. But out of respect I will do as you asked.

[moosehead]

13 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Agreed, it is a long hard path to peace, if it was easy it would have been solved 3000 years ago.

I fully believe there can be no peace while Hamas governs Gaza.

 

Same goes i guess.... this is easy..... 

 

There can be no peace while Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu governs Israel. 

[Optimist Prime]

6 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

Yeah, I can agree with that. But I will say as a point of concern I find it concerning that you are bothered with somebody disagreeing with you. You have made a couple points that I've upvoted so I would disagree with your assessment but my opinion is only my opinion. I do believe in the past I said it would probably be for the best what you are suggesting but I'm not bothered that you disagree with me. But out of respect I will do as you asked.

Thank you, it has been ongoing for three weeks across four threads. At this point it just seems we will disagree on anything in the offtopic forums. The handful of times each that we happen to agree are the exceptions that prove the rule haha. Take care and have a nice life. 

[Bob Long]

19 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

How? Supported by whom? And where? The Palestinian people appear to be caught between a rock and a hard place regarding Hamas and Israel. 

 

I had a post earlier in this thread getting into why there haven't been many open protests against Hamas, and repeatedly mentioned throughout the articles I shared we references to Hamas shutting down pushback. I don't think I've seen anyone in this thread support what Hamas has been doing, they're clearly part of the problem but there doesn't really appear to be a simple solution. More than likely they'll be difficult to root out. What I have seen understanding as to why there would be pushback and retaliation towards Israel. 

 

by having elections? if Hamas is preventing that now, then Israel getting rid of them is a good thing, isn't it?

 

 

19 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Further complicating things are the geopolitics of the region and the hands of other nations, including Russia, the US, and Iran, sticking their fingers in the pie. 

 

Gaza is being shelled, who's going to finance any rebuilding? Who's going to open up their wallet and finance things? Even if a Palestinian government were installed, who's going to stick around to try and ensure things remain stable? Who is actually interested in the Palestinian people enough to offer more than token gestures or thoughts and prayers? I doubt the US or Israel have any interest in propping them up. 

 

I do think Israelis, at least before last week, still had a majority view of having a two state peace of some kind. 

 

So who sticks around? maybe this is a role for UN peacekeepers?

 

19 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

It's all such a mess, and that's before you get into history, factions, ideologies, oppression, and the parts each actor has played upon this stage both in the current day and historically. 

 

we can do the historical thing to the end of time. At some point you have to choose a democracy or things reman bad for the average person.

 

Maybe as part of international aid to rebuild, the international community requires a free and democratic election to be held. 

 

 

[Bob Long]

9 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

Same goes i guess.... this is easy..... 

 

There can be no peace while Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu governs Israel. 

 

you can't be suggesting that Hamas is a good option moving forward?

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

you can't be suggesting that Hamas is a good option moving forward?

 

Of course not.   I think both groups need new moderate leadership that is willing to compromise if they actually want to find a solution that brings peace to their region.

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

 

Of course not.   I think both groups need new moderate leadership that is willing to compromise if they actually want to find a solution that brings peace to their region.

the hardline Israeli's, lets just call them all Netanyahu for short, do not have as their reason for existence "the eradication of the people of Gaza", while the people who are Hamas quite literally exist as an entity for the explicit destruction of Israel. Therefore I have to conclude that Hamas needs to be rendered Inert in order to advance peace, while the hardline Netanyahu's will be pushed back from the forefront of Israeli politics once the citizenship and voters of Israel feel security and peace is upon them.

[moosehead]

7 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

you can't be suggesting that Hamas is a good option moving forward?

you can't be suggesting that Benjamin Netanyahu is a good option moving forward.... ?

[Warhippy]

3 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

I am not totally sure of your exact point, but your inference is a good one. The First Nations of Canada, by and large did not start wars that they then lost. There were some fights clearly, but my understanding is most first Nations in Canada signed treaties nation to nation, but back east before that, there was a terrible genocide. I don't know too much specificly about the Ojibwe or Cree, that is my bad, but I am learning through a great series called Nations At War on APTN network. 

 

I can't really speak to it, as I am still learning the truth in our history in Canada. I know that the Beothuk people were hunted to extinction by settlers in what is now Newfoundland, which is the exact definition of Genocide. I know the Anishinaabe (spelling mistake is on me) were forced out of their ancestral lands and pushed west, both up and down around the great lakes, displacing more folks who pushed west and south displacing more. I am fairly confident that the nations out west like BC were never so much at war with settlers as signed inherently unbalanced treaties with them. 

I generally believe the Residential School system to have been an extension of Genocide against the peoples of our First nations and we are feeling the effects of that genocide to this day in every community in Canada. 

 

I simply have to apologize for not being incredibly "up" on events. I try to learn our shared history here from an unbiased approach but a product of public schooling in the 80's; I have limited perspective from my education. 

 

look up works by mary christine bader, Benay Blend "a tale of 2 reservations",  Steven Salaita Indian Studies & Palestinian Impetous.  There's been numerous comparisons between 1st nations reservations and the current state of things in Palestine.  It's very interesting if you wanted to read up on it.

 

 

[Coconuts]

25 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

Agreed, it is a long hard path to peace, if it was easy it would have been solved 3000 years ago.

 

My hope is that the vast majority of Hamas can be rooted out and either imprisoned or eliminated, and that the people who are governed by them can once again try for peace and prosperity, I fully believe there can be no peace while Hamas governs Gaza.

 

I do agree that Hamas has to go, but I'm not optimistic about that really resolving much of anything if there aren't other changes that occur as well. I'd argue that there's no chance of peace while Israel plays an oppressive role as well, because so long as the Palestinian people are blockaded within a small strip of land, Israel controls resources, decides who comes and goes, and so on there will be resistance. Such treatment just further fuels anger, hatred, and so on. Another group could come along and manipulate such things. If anything is to change I think both Israel and the international community will have to play parts in shaping change going forward. 

 

Israel can shut down power, water, withhold fuel and other resources, they can also utilize their military might to control how outside aid is directed towards the Palestinian people. If there is to be long term peace I think this will need to eventually change. I also think part of the problem is some folks are quick to present Hamas and the Palestinian people as being one when it's more complicated than that. 

 

The Palestinian people and Israel need to both contribute to any lasting solution, which means that extreme leadership on either side is probably a stumbling block. For that to happen Hamas will need to be rooted out, new Palestinian leadership will need to be willing to work with Israel, and Israeli leadership will need to be willing to work with Palestinian leadership. It's a lot to ask for but we'll see. 

 

 

 

 

[moosehead]

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

the hardline Israeli's, lets just call them all Netanyahu for short, do not have as their reason for existence "the eradication of the people of Gaza", while the people who are Hamas quite literally exist as an entity for the explicit destruction of Israel. Therefore I have to conclude that Hamas needs to be rendered Inert in order to advance peace, while the hardline Netanyahu's will be pushed back from the forefront of Israeli politics once the citizenship and voters of Israel feel security and peace is upon them.

 

Cleary the Israeli leadership does want the explicit destruction of the Palestinian people....   hence the Apartheid , occupation , oppression, and ethnic cleansing....

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

you can't be suggesting that Benjamin Netanyahu is a good option moving forward.... ?

 

you mean a democratically elected leader?

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

you mean a democratically elected leader?

yes, exactly.

[Coconuts]

11 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

by having elections? if Hamas is preventing that now, then Israel getting rid of them is a good thing, isn't it?

 

 

 

I do think Israelis, at least before last week, still had a majority view of having a two state peace of some kind. 

 

So who sticks around? maybe this is a role for UN peacekeepers?

 

 

we can do the historical thing to the end of time. At some point you have to choose a democracy or things reman bad for the average person.

 

Maybe as part of international aid to rebuild, the international community requires a free and democratic election to be held. 

 

 

 

Nobody is arguing that Hamas is a good thing. Ideally, yes, elections are a fantastic idea but getting to a place where that's a reality is probably easier said than done. 

 

Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to gauge how the events of the last week or so have shifted things, or to gauge what how the influence of outside parties like the US, Iran, and Russia will impact things. 

 

UN peacekeepers? I dunno, I question the stomach of North American and European nations to be involved longer than they have to be, but maybe. Again, I also question who funds it. 

 

I question the willingness of the international community to pony up, particularly post-Covid. I question how many resources the US and Europe will be willing to part with while the Ukraine conflict is going on, and I question whether other powers like China or India have any interest in supporting the Palestinian people. International support is great in theory though, don't get me wrong. 

 

As for democracy, I question who'd work to ensure that any such democracy has a chance to take root, assuming the Palestinian people are able to get to a point where that's actually a reality. 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

yes, exactly.

 

you might want to check the last time Gaza had a proper election. 

[Bob Long]

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

 

Nobody is arguing that Hamas is a good thing. Ideally, yes, elections are a fantastic idea but getting to a place where that's a reality is probably easier said than done. 

 

Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to gauge how the events of the last week or so have shifted things, or to gauge what how the influence of outside parties like the US, Iran, and Russia will impact things. 

 

UN peacekeepers? I dunno, I question the stomach of North American and European nations to be involved longer than they have to be, but maybe. Again, I also question who funds it. 

 

I question the willingness of the international community to pony up, particularly post-Covid. I question how many resources the US and Europe will be willing to part with while the Ukraine conflict is going on, and I question whether other powers like China or India have any interest in supporting the Palestinian people. International support is great in theory though, don't get me wrong. 

 

As for democracy, I question who'd work to ensure that any such democracy has a chance to take root, assuming the Palestinian people are able to get to a point where that's actually a reality. 

 

we only have so many tools in the box. If its not the UN, then who? I don't see any other organization capable of stepping in. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Bob Long

[moosehead]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

you might want to check the last time Gaza had a proper election. 

 

Why ? Elected powers can also participate in despicable acts such as Apartheid , Ethnic cleansing , racism and oppression.  

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

you might want to check the last time Gaza had a proper election. 

 

You might want to check out the definition of Apartheid ?

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

you might want to check the last time Gaza had a proper election. 

No need to look it up: Hamas was elected and promptly cancelled any further elections, taking control permanently of Gaza. I see no bigger bad actor in the conflict than Hamas. I feel they need to be eradicated for the good people of Gaza to have a future. 

[Bob Long]

Just now, moosehead said:

 

Why ? Elected powers can also participate in despicable acts such as Apartheid , Ethnic cleansing , racism and oppression.  

 

tbh I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I don't see how you get there so easily and one-sided, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. 

1 minute ago, Optimist Prime said:

No need to look it up: Hamas was elected and promptly cancelled any further elections, taking control permanently of Gaza. I see no bigger bad actor in the conflict than Hamas. I feel they need to be eradicated for the good people of Gaza to have a future. 

 

its baffling to me that some don't see Hamas as not being a horrible actor in all this. 

[moosehead]

Just now, Bob Long said:

 

tbh I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I don't see how you get there so easily and one-sided, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. 

 

I blame both parties.   You blame Hamas.

You are the one that is one sided.

Yes  we will agree to disagree. 

[Optimist Prime]

1 minute ago, moosehead said:

 

Why ? Elected powers can also participate in despicable acts such as Apartheid , Ethnic cleansing , racism and oppression.  

 

You might want to check out the definition of Apartheid ?

It sounds as though you are in favour of dictatorships and authoritarians, despite what I think is your point that any kind of government may do horrible things, it really comes off as condoning Putin, Kim Jong Un, the Ayatollah and Hamas. 

I don't think that is the tone you intended though, is it?

[moosehead]

2 minutes ago, Optimist Prime said:

It sounds as though you are in favour of dictatorships and authoritarians, despite what I think is your point that any kind of government may do horrible things, it really comes off as condoning Putin, Kim Jong Un, the Ayatollah and Hamas. 

I don't think that is the tone you intended though, is it?

 

The opposite actually.

 

All  forms government have done horrific things to various minorities / other groups.  

No one form of government has a perfect track record of behaviour. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by moosehead

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, moosehead said:

 

I blame both parties.   You blame Hamas.

You are the one that is one sided.

Yes  we will agree to disagree. 

 

yes, I do blame Hamas for this current act. Yes I do think Israel has the right to protect itself from this kind of thing. Yes I want to see Palestinians live freely in their own democratic state. 

[Coconuts]

2 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

we only have so many tools in the box. If its not the UN, then who? I don't see any other organization capable of stepping in. 

 

I don't know, if I had a silver bullet answer for this conflict I'd happily offer it up. But again, I question the willingness of countries and governments around the world to participate in facilitating lasting change by providing longer-term resources. At the end of the day each country will ultimately look out for it's own, and costs of living and so on aren't issues unique to Canada and the US.

 

There's also the Ukraine thing, which was already drawing many resources from countries through Europe, and from the US in particular. 

 

I'd love to see the international community step in and help facilitate lasting change but I seriously question whether they'll have the stomach for it if push comes to shove. 

[moosehead]

12 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

yes, I do blame Hamas for this current act. Yes I do think Israel has the right to protect itself from this kind of thing. Yes I want to see Palestinians live freely in their own democratic state. 

 

yes, i do blame both  Hamas and Israeli government for this 80 year conflict and all the human suffering that has occured. 

Tit for Tat killings will not solve this conflict.  Just like locking millions of humans in a cage with limited access to  power, water , food , med supplies will also not help keep Israeli's safe in the long term.....  It will only perpetuate this never ending conflict.  Yes i want to see both Palestinians and Israeli's live freely in their own democratic state. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by moosehead