Economic Models/Systems For Society Today/Tomorrow

[Canuckle]

1 hour ago, Satchmo said:

It might have been me that said that, or at least something similar.

 

He may have said it too, but I've kinda stopped paying close attention.

 

Capitalism by definition, and by design, is about capital accumulation. Wealth, property, and power with it.

 

Even if greed was some law of human nature (which i don't agree in those terms) it is nevertheless reinforced by the capitalist system, or any system built on private property rights for that matter. In fact it rewards the behaviour. It's not a bug, it's a feature!

Edited October 13, 2023 by Canuckle

[Bob Long]

32 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Well you're in luck. You can have a market in a socialist economy, too. I think i mentioned that before? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism

 

In fact that's kind of the idea for wide scale development of co-operatives and federations in general. In the end, the isms of capitalism and socialism merely outline who's getting paid.

 

OK so on this particular theory I think you and I have some agreement - see, it can happen 

 

Like I said, co-op's are fantastic ideas and imo ONLY a co-op model can solve our current housing crisis. 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Innovation happens in all sorts of economies, market or non market.

 

The idea that it "happens best" isn't really founded on anything concrete. But because that's what we know and live in, it's hard to find comparables. Isn't evidence in and of itself though.

 

I mentioned this in a comment earlier but did the first guy to invent the wheel only do it to trade in a market or to make a buck? Nah. Humans are always innovative and curious, make new tools to enhance our lives. Steve Wozniak didn't build his first computer to make a buck. He did it to see if he could do it.

 

And in that sense it doesn't matter what economic system, market or non market, that we may exist under in terms of incentive to innovate and create.

 

Remember that meme i posted with the Neanderthal? We're there.

 

 

Sorry. The thread is getting messy here. I forgot to answer this part.

 

Where do they buy? Same place we do i imagine.  Because what choice do we have at this point, right?  If there was another option, say,  a co-operative in socialist market place they'd get them from there.

 

this one cracks me up. I have a BA in Anthropology so I'm just gonna let this one slide as a funny meme.

 

[Canuckle]

3 hours ago, Bob Long said:

 

OK so on this particular theory I think you and I have some agreement - see, it can happen 

 

Like I said, co-op's are fantastic ideas and imo ONLY a co-op model can solve our current housing crisis. 

 

 

 

this one cracks me up. I have a BA in Anthropology so I'm just gonna let this one slide as a funny meme.

 

An anthropologist and a sociologist walk into a bar... 

 

The thing is I'm not opposed to either  market or non market forms of economy. In the end, I'm a subscriber to libertarian socialism as a whole and not any one particular idea or theory within the collective political philosophies there.

 

And frankly it would be unrealistic to expect the same ideas to work in the exactly the same way in every place given the difference of things like culture, stages of development, etc.

 

For example even the current  Autonomous zone in Rojava. It's not some perfect definition, but rather a work in progress, built around that space and place in time:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Administration_of_North_and_East_Syria

 

As for the housing crisis, I think there's a number of different approaches we can use to resolve that mess.

 

In Vienna, around 50% of housing is social housing.

 

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_011314.html

 

 

As for solving the homeless crisis, could take the Finnish approach with a housing first model.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sunday/the-sunday-edition-for-january-26-2020-1.5429251/housing-is-a-human-right-how-finland-is-eradicating-homelessness-1.5437402

 

Obviously housing co-ops are a good solution, perhaps even the preferable one. But I mean most all of these are better than what we're getting now-- not much.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Canuckle

[Bob Long]

22 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

An anthropologist and a sociologist walk into a bar... 

 

The thing is I'm not opposed to either  market or non market forms of economy. In the end, I'm a subscriber to libertarian socialism as a whole and not any one particular idea or theory within the collective political philosophies there.

 

And frankly it would be unrealistic to expect the same ideas to work in the exactly the same way in every place given the difference of things like culture, stages of development, etc.

 

For example even the current  Autonomous zone in Rojava. It's not some perfect definition, but rather a work in progress, built around that space and place in time:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Administration_of_North_and_East_Syria

 

As for the housing crisis, I think there's a number of different approaches we can use to resolve that mess.

 

In Vienna, around 50% of housing is social housing.

 

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_011314.html

 

 

As for solving the homeless crisis, could take the Finnish approach with a housing first model.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sunday/the-sunday-edition-for-january-26-2020-1.5429251/housing-is-a-human-right-how-finland-is-eradicating-homelessness-1.5437402

 

Obviously housing co-ops are a good solution, perhaps even the preferable one. But I mean most all of these are better than what we're getting now-- not much.

Yep what's happening to housing for people under 30 is pretty disgusting. 

 

The reason I say that only a co-op model will work is it's the only idea where fear of boomers  losing equity can't be overplayed to shut down new homes.

 

Other ideas will create fear mongering opportunities from the right.

[Canuckle]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

...Other ideas will create fear mongering opportunities from the right.

 

I'm not even sure co-ops would stop that from happening. Might not have the same bite as "gubment handout" but God knows what they'll come up with next. I mean they're already saying the quiet part out loud and people still toe the line. Media can convince people of most anything.

 

Speaking of propaganda, spent any time with Noam Chomsky and his work Manufacturing Consent?  Check this out:

 

 

(Weird animation, but hits the nail on the head) But now we're on a different topic entirely.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Canuckle

[Ryan Strome]

2 hours ago, Bob Long said:

Yep what's happening to housing for people under 30 is pretty disgusting. 

 

The reason I say that only a co-op model will work is it's the only idea where fear of boomers  losing equity can't be overplayed to shut down new homes.

 

Other ideas will create fear mongering opportunities from the right.

The individual you are engaging with I have on my block list but because you responded to him I can see his post. I do believe he put me on his block list which is probably for the best but I noticed in his post he said libertarian socialism. Are you able to ask him or are you able to clarify for me how exactly libertarian and socialism go together? I consider myself a libertarian so in saying that I find them to be at complete opposites of the spectrum. Does he have a video for that? Maybe I can view? 

[Ilunga]

53 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

I'm not even sure co-ops would stop that from happening. Might not have the same bite as "gubment handout" but God knows what they'll come up with next. I mean they're already saying the quiet part out loud and people still toe the line. Media can convince people of most anything.

 

Speaking of propaganda, spent any time with Noam Chomsky and his work Manufacturing Consent?  Check this out:

 

 

(Weird animation, but hits the nail on the head) But now we're on a different topic entirely.

 I certainly have.

Read it 3 times.

Have many of his books.

Admire him on several levels, his activism and the fact he could be described as our greatest living linguist.

 

I love words and their ability to convey ideas. 

 

Take my user name, a 1000 linguists were surveyed and they believe it is the world's most difficult word to translate.

[UnkNuk]

54 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

Take my user name, a 1000 linguists were surveyed and they believe it is the world's most difficult word to translate.

 

Wikipedia has spoken:

 

[Ilunga]

29 minutes ago, UnkNuk said:

 

Wikipedia has spoken:

 

 

You forgot to add the part about the thousand linguists

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilunga

 

[UnkNuk]

7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

You forgot to add the part about the thousand linguists

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilunga

 

 

You're right.

 

 

So what happens after the third time?   

 

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, UnkNuk said:

 

You're right.

 

 

So what happens after the third time?   

 

 

I like both the interpretations of this word. 

 

That it means to unite, unify.

 

Cop sh!t and forgive it the first time, tolerate it the second, but eff you the third !

[Bob Long]

2 hours ago, Canuckle said:

 

I'm not even sure co-ops would stop that from happening. Might not have the same bite as "gubment handout" but God knows what they'll come up with next. I mean they're already saying the quiet part out loud and people still toe the line. Media can convince people of most anything.

 

Speaking of propaganda, spent any time with Noam Chomsky and his work Manufacturing Consent?  Check this out:

 

 

(Weird animation, but hits the nail on the head) But now we're on a different topic entirely.

It's been a while since I tackled any Noam, have to save that one for another day.

2 hours ago, Ryan Strome said:

The individual you are engaging with I have on my block list but because you responded to him I can see his post. I do believe he put me on his block list which is probably for the best but I noticed in his post he said libertarian socialism. Are you able to ask him or are you able to clarify for me how exactly libertarian and socialism go together? I consider myself a libertarian so in saying that I find them to be at complete opposites of the spectrum. Does he have a video for that? Maybe I can view? 

 

It's an unholy alliance of the recognition of the need for a market economy and socialism. You know, the AB NDP.

[Sharpshooter]

2 hours ago, Ilunga said:

 I certainly have.

Read it 3 times.

Have many of his books.

Admire him on several levels, his activism and the fact he could be described as our greatest living linguist.

 

I love words and their ability to convey ideas. 

 

Take my user name, a 1000 linguists were surveyed and they believe it is the world's most difficult word to translate.

[Ilunga]

19 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

 

That's the first time, I forgive you.

[Sharpshooter]

Just now, Ilunga said:

 

That's the first time, I forgive you.

[Ilunga]

1 minute ago, Sharpshooter said:

 

Indeed you are 

[Canuckle]

46 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

It's been a while since I tackled any Noam, have to save that one for another day.

 

It's an unholy alliance of the recognition of the need for a market economy and socialism. You know, the AB NDP.

 

Oh its a quick little 5 minute video I posted there. Nothing intensive or anything.

 

AB NDP??? Nah, man. Thems social democrats.  Lol. Libertarian socialists are not that.

Sarcasm is hard to read on here without a  /s tag so maybe you're joking

 

Also @Ryan Strome. Since you i see you asked a question in good faith  i unblocked you if you want to discuss the history of libertarianism.

 

Quick crash course: The term actually comes from leftist political philosophy but was later co-opted by the right.  (I used to be a right libertarian Ron Paul lover back in the day believe it or not.)

 

Right libertarians oppose the state appartus just like left libertarians do, but they are diametrically opposed when it comes to protection of private property rights, capitalism, etc.

 

In fact leftists would argue that right libertarians and ayncraps are actually just Feudalists when you follow the logic through.

 

That's the gist of it tho.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

Edited October 14, 2023 by Canuckle

[aGENT]

On 10/11/2023 at 5:19 PM, Ilunga said:

 

You haven't spent enough time around other human beings.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_nature

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/human-nature 

 

 

 

Thanks for the tip regarding Mutual aid factor regarding of Evolution and the other links.

Good post.

 

 

No kidding. There's a reason "real socialism" hasn't ever happened. At some point someone (or a bunch of someones) takes (or refuses to release) control of the power... And millions of people die.

 

No thanks, seen how that movie ends. Fun exercise on paper, not conducive with reality.

 

Honestly disappointed in this thread after coming in here. We have some major structural and systemic impending problems to deal with in the near-mid term. Global warming, the upside down pyramid of aging global population demographics, AI/automation.... We need some legit ideas and innovation and this thread has largely focused on the fairy tale of "real socialism".

 

We have a very real problem with capitalism's never ending need for growth coming head to head with the environment and aging population. I was hoping for more discussion on things like can/how to make a circular economy function within capitalist economies, basic income, etc.

[Canuckle]

On 10/15/2023 at 5:49 PM, aGENT said:

There's a reason "real socialism" hasn't ever happened.

Yeah. Because they get murdered basically every time they try. Nothing to do with the philosophy not being sound. On the contrary, the powers that be attack them precisely because they know it works... and they have a lot to lose when it does.

 

Workers co-operatives are a solution to the exploitation and power problem you speak of.  And state ownership was never the idea at the core. Some states claimed it to be "transitionary" but libertarian socialists reject this idea outright.

 

For example all that happened in the USSR instead of a guy in a suit deciding what they do and usurping the surplus value of their labours it it was a guy in a military uniform. Not much changed for the workers.  "State socialism" could actually best be described as state capitalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism

 

Not the idea.

 

On 10/15/2023 at 5:49 PM, aGENT said:

At some point someone (or a bunch of someones) takes (or refuses to release) control of the power... And millions of people die.

 

Exactly what socialism sets out to avoid. Workers ownership like workers co-operatives (along with other structurally changes) would make such hierarchical power structures virtually  impossible.

On 10/15/2023 at 5:49 PM, aGENT said:

Honestly disappointed in this thread after coming in here. We have some major structural and systemic impending problems to deal with in the near-mid term. Global warming, the upside down pyramid of aging global population demographics, AI/automation.... We need some legit ideas and innovation and this thread has largely focused on the fairy tale of "real socialism".

 

 

There are legitimate ideas. Doesnt seem like you're very open to hearing them if you are already handwaving ideas before really hearing them?

 

On 10/15/2023 at 5:49 PM, aGENT said:

We have a very real problem with capitalism's never ending need for growth coming head to head with the environment and aging population. I was hoping for more discussion on things like can/how to make a circular economy function within capitalist economies, basic income, etc.

Basic income won't help with the cyclical consumption infinite growth capitalist economy. In fact that would only help to entrench it further. I made an earlier comment in the thread explaining it.

 

But I agree. We have real world problems to solve. But capitalism is not the means to solving them: It's a root of those very problems to begin with.

[aGENT]

6 hours ago, Canuckle said:

Yeah. Because they get murdered basically every time they try. Nothing to do with the philosophy not being sound. On the contrary, the powers that be attack them precisely because they know it works... and they have a lot to lose when it does.

 

Workers co-operatives are a solution to the exploitation and power problem you speak of.  And state ownership was never the idea at the core. Some states claimed it to be "transitionary" but libertarian socialists reject this idea outright.

 

For example all that happened in the USSR instead of a guy in a suit deciding what they do and usurping the surplus value of their labours it it was a guy in a military uniform. Not much changed for the workers.  "State socialism" could actually best be described as state capitalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism

 

Not the idea.

 

 

Exactly what socialism sets out to avoid. Workers ownership like workers co-operatives (along with other structurally changes) would make such hierarchical power structures virtually  impossible.

 

There are legitimate ideas. Doesnt seem like you're very open to hearing them if you are already handwaving ideas before really hearing them?

 

Basic income won't help with the cyclical consumption infinite growth capitalist economy. In fact that would only help to entrench it further. I made an earlier comment in the thread explaining it.

 

But I agree. We have real world problems to solve. But capitalism is not the means to solving them: It's a root of those very problems to begin with.

 

"True" socialism can't work BECAUSE people are involved. That's kind of the point. People will inevitably fuck it up... And millions of people end up dying. Maybe when the machines take over they can run under socialism. We're inherently too selfish a species, to live under such a system. It's a fairytale.

 

Before really hearing them?! Socialism isn't a new concept 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by aGENT

[Bob Long]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

"True" socialism can't work BECAUSE people are involved. That's kind of the point. People will inevitably fuck it up... And millions of people end up dying. Maybe when the machines take over they can run under socialism. We're inherently too selfish a species, to live under such a system. It's a fairytale.

 

Before really hearing them?! Socialism isn't a new concept 

 

 

 

someone always want the corner office, even in a communist building. And no one likes picking fruit. So it will never work. 

 

Its always been a dumb idea. You don't need socialist economic organization for people to be treated fairly or to have an equal opportunity for a better life. 

[Optimist Prime]

Libertarian Socialist as a term sounds to me like someone who wants the benefits of the social contract with none of the obligations. Everyone gets the same benefit from managing the farm, but the bookkeeper has a better job than the stall mucker and no one goes to jail for having a poke with the cow. 

Doesn't sound like any system I would like to be a part of. 

[AatuD2]

On 10/13/2023 at 5:16 PM, Canuckle said:

An anthropologist and a sociologist walk into a bar... 

 

The thing is I'm not opposed to either  market or non market forms of economy. In the end, I'm a subscriber to libertarian socialism as a whole and not any one particular idea or theory within the collective political philosophies there.

 

And frankly it would be unrealistic to expect the same ideas to work in the exactly the same way in every place given the difference of things like culture, stages of development, etc.

 

For example even the current  Autonomous zone in Rojava. It's not some perfect definition, but rather a work in progress, built around that space and place in time:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Administration_of_North_and_East_Syria

 

As for the housing crisis, I think there's a number of different approaches we can use to resolve that mess.

 

In Vienna, around 50% of housing is social housing.

 

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_011314.html

 

 

As for solving the homeless crisis, could take the Finnish approach with a housing first model.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sunday/the-sunday-edition-for-january-26-2020-1.5429251/housing-is-a-human-right-how-finland-is-eradicating-homelessness-1.5437402

 

Obviously housing co-ops are a good solution, perhaps even the preferable one. But I mean most all of these are better than what we're getting now-- not much.

 

 

I just have to interject into your and @Bob Long's conversation that when it comes to the homeless crisis, it's actually mislabeled.  

 

It's a drug epidemic and a mental-health crisis.  

 

Yes, rent is expensive, and it's hard to find housing...  but being homeless is a symptom in Downtown Eastside, not the root cause of their issues. 

 

Anyways, carry on with capitalism vs. socialism  

[AatuD2]

3 hours ago, Optimist Prime said:

Libertarian Socialist as a term sounds to me like someone who wants the benefits of the social contract with none of the obligations. Everyone gets the same benefit from managing the farm, but the bookkeeper has a better job than the stall mucker and no one goes to jail for having a poke with the cow. 

Doesn't sound like any system I would like to be a part of. 

 

 

It is extremely hard to have many social contracts that come from Socialism, and yet keep their hands off of (personal) Libertarianism issues. 

 

[Canuckle]

1 hour ago, Bob Long said:

 

someone always want the corner office, even in a communist building. And no one likes picking fruit. So it will never work. 

 

Its always been a dumb idea. You don't need socialist economic organization for people to be treated fairly or to have an equal opportunity for a better life. 

Don't mistaken your own selfishness to everyone else... especially considering the structures and institutions which breeds the behavior and awards those kinds of "fuck you got mine" dog eat dog behavior to begin with.

 

Its not about needing socialism to be "treated fairly" and "opportunity."  It's about finding an alternative to one already make those things an impossibility just based on who you're born to and where you live. Class, status, power.

 

Claiming the socio economic ladder for the vast majority of people is a complete myth.  And the ones that do usually have to step on the necks of others to get there.

 

Capitalism is dogshit