Economic Models/Systems For Society Today/Tomorrow

[Canuckle]

15 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

So, all we have to do is try it.  And it will work, if we just put some effort in.

 

I'm beginning to get it now.

 

Save the reductive nonsense, thanks.

[Satchmo]

Just now, Canuckle said:

 

Save the reductive nonsense, thanks.

Sorry but I can't help it.   After all these pages and ample consideration that's the conclusion I have reached.

 

All we have to do is try it and it will work if we just put some effort in.

 

Over and out.   See you in some other thread.

[Bob Long]

Just now, Satchmo said:

Sorry but I can't help it.   After all these pages and ample consideration that's the conclusion I have reached.

 

All we have to do is try it and it will work if we just put some effort in.

 

Over and out.   See you in some other thread.

 

But dude it's praxis. Like how socialism in practice has always failed, praxis.

[Canuckle]

4 minutes ago, Satchmo said:

Sorry but I can't help it.   After all these pages and ample consideration that's the conclusion I have reached.

 

All we have to do is try it and it will work if we just put some effort in.

 

Over and out.   See you in some other thread.

 

You haven't considered much if that's your sole takeaway. Yep. See you in some other thread

[Canuckle]

5 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

But dude it's praxis. Like how socialism in practice has always failed, praxis.

 

You spelled capitalism wrong.

 

Failing the vast majority of humans on the planet, and more and more every single day.

 

Clutch dem pearls, baby

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

You spelled capitalism wrong.

 

Failing the vast majority of humans on the planet, and more and more every single day.

 

Clutch dem pearls, baby

 

Clutch what now? You haven't come close to convincing anyone that your ideas hold water.

 

Go pick me a beet comrade.

[Canuckle]

1 hour ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Capitalism is the best option currently. What form of Capitalism begs the question.

 

Socialism in its purest form fails in account with human nature.

What "form" exactly. The end is result is always the same regardless what names we attach or spin it. Capital and power accumulation and the ability to dominate.

 

But that's just MuH hUmAn NaTuRe, right?

 

No.  Good excuse psychopaths tell themselves though.

 

As for the statement "Socialism in it's purest form" is a completely nonsensical statement.

 

It's quite clear you don't know what that word means, and I'm not sure you know what capitalism really means  either at this point.

 

"If the slave owners were nicer... if the state didn't help the slave owners..  if they slave owners were taxed a little more..."  'Forms' of capitalism. Da best option is slavery.

 

No thanks.

[Canuckle]

51 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

Clutch what now? You haven't come close to convincing anyone that your ideas hold water.

 

Go pick me a beet comrade.

 

Who said I was trying to convince the converted of anything LMAO.

 

The act of posting the information to enlighten others is enough in and of itself. Not everyone comments.  But at least some people reading will gain  insight to concepts they may or may not have been previously familiar with.

 

Agitate. Educate. Organize.

 

All they're getting from you guys is the typical capitalist cheerleading propaganda.

 

And you're fighting so hard it's almost like you'd have something to lose if these ideas took hold on a wide scale again. Like how workers movements got things like... *gasp*... the 8 hour work day!!!!!... and *gasp*... pensions!!! Workers co-ops everywhere???!!! Oh God!!!  Not a more equitable distribution of the fruits of our labour!!!!

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Ribs
Getting a bit personal

[Ghostsof1915]

Having a safety net to cover in case capitalism screws up is needed. The problem is corruption and greed. The point before was lots of competition to keep companies honest. Ever since the 80's and the Art of War mentality, companies have been getting bigger and bigger. Now it's megacorporations, and mutual funds. Before as a shareholder you had a say. You could tell the board to pay the employees more if you wished. Your stock options gave you a voice. Now it's the biggest buck. Who cares if the product has no quality. (Or to use the Mob phrase "It's not supposed to be good, it's supposed to be bought..")

 

Capitalism has been corrupted. Just as politics are corrupted. Yeah you could be a small company, innovate, but larger companies will do everything they can to bankrupt you, or buy you out. Capitalism, Politics and Law without checks and balances, just destroys the human part of the equation.

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Canuckle said:

 

 

https://old.reddit.com/r/Anarchy101/comments/iq0uq3/i_grew_up_associating_the_word_anarchy_with/

Alf likes apes. Alf is furry. Apes are furry. Still don’t like anarchism though. How about Utopianism? That’s a nice sounding word. 

[Canuckle]

29 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Alf likes apes. Alf is furry. Apes are furry. Still don’t like anarchism though. How about Utopianism? That’s a nice sounding word. 

 

Nice sounding word, nevertheless an innacurate descriptor.

 

I don't particularly find the idea of a society absent of systemic oppression and slavery to be some far fetched idea here. But maybe that's just me. You do eat cats afterall, Alf.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Canuckle

[AatuD2]

4 hours ago, Alflives said:

I like the concept of this ideal world but realize Star Trek is a TV show and Gene Roddenberry was a romantic. I think President Biden said it best when he mention the 15% of people who mess things up for the rest. In an ideal world what is fine with this group? What do we do with this 1 billion people? 

 

 

Sorry, sorry, couldn't help it when I saw Biden's name hahaha 

[Canuckle]

@Ribs You edited my comment. Hahaha

C'mon now.

 

If he's telling me to pick his beets, a comment disparaging of lower classes and the menial work they are forced to work to survive under capitalism I can chirp him back being a billionaire simp or refer to him as Aqua for what he's saying just the same.  Or is the difference that he didn't say blueberries.

 

Think about it.

 

 

 

[Junkyard Dog]

18 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

What "form" exactly. The end is result is always the same regardless what names we attach or spin it. Capital and power accumulation and the ability to dominate.

 

But that's just MuH hUmAn NaTuRe, right?

 

No.  Good excuse psychopaths tell themselves though.

 

As for the statement "Socialism in it's purest form" is a completely nonsensical statement.

 

It's quite clear you don't know what that word means, and I'm not sure you know what capitalism really means  either at this point.

 

"If the slave owners were nicer... if the state didn't help the slave owners..  if they slave owners were taxed a little more..."  'Forms' of capitalism. Da best option is slavery.

 

No thanks.

 

I am not sure you know what you're talking about or where you're are even going with all of this yourself. Going back and looking at these posts they sound deluded incoherent and and lack any sort of rational thought.@Bob Long has been trying to get you to elaborate your points for a while but it seems the only thing you have to say is "Capitalism bad" followed by *insert bad joke* toppled with "you don't know what you're talking about" and finally a defense of "look it up". Seems like you live in fantasyland.

 

You then have the gall to call @Bob Long a simp for Billionaire's too sheesh. Him of all people? Half the people you spurt at believe in more of a social government too but don't share in your delusions of grandeur so I guess that's not enough for you. You haven't been around long have you yet you sound like you live online and spend too much time on reddit. Maybe you shouldn't post too quickly and you're post count would at least catch up. Who knows. You might even give VC a run for his money. Maybe your post count can eventually match to the amount of millions Socialism has killed in failed regimes. You have that energy. You've got that delusional Hasan Piker energy LMAO.

 

You like jokes here's some

 

 

 

 

I think it's high time I dusted off the old reliable.

 

 

 

 

 

I could be timed out for a bit as after this spat.  Oh well. I could use time offline. 

 

Looks like I'll be dusting off the old ignore button as well.  You gave me a good chuckle Canuckle. Nice knowing ya. 

 

 

[Canuckle]

1 hour ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

I am not sure you know what you're talking about or where you're are even going with all of this yourself. Going back and looking at these posts they sound deluded incoherent and and lack any sort of rational thought.@Bob Long has been trying to get you to elaborate your points for a while but it seems the only thing you have to say is "Capitalism bad" followed by *insert bad joke* toppled with "you don't know what you're talking about" and finally a defense of "look it up". Seems like you live in fantasyland.

 

You then have the gall to call @Bob Long a simp for Billionaire's too sheesh. Him of all people? Half the people you spurt at believe in more of a social government too but don't share in your delusions of grandeur so I guess that's not enough for you. You haven't been around long have you yet you sound like you live online and spend too much time on reddit. Maybe you shouldn't post too quickly and you're post count would at least catch up. Who knows. You might even give VC a run for his money. Maybe your post count can eventually match to the amount of millions Socialism has killed in failed regimes. You have that energy. You've got that delusional Hasan Piker energy LMAO.

 

You like jokes here's some

 

I think it's high time I dusted off the old reliable.

 

I could be timed out for a bit as after this spat.  Oh well. I could use time offline. 

 

Looks like I'll be dusting off the old ignore button as well.  You gave me a good chuckle Canuckle. Nice knowing ya.

 

It's interesting. Trying to expand conversations to discuss political philosophies and economic systems outside capitalism and the pushback I'm seeing without people even giving it a second thought. Instant knee-jerk reaction, freak outs like this post, and blatant trolling.

 

But hey since we're in a meme posting mood, how about this:

 

 

And don't worry your little heart what I do with my time, comrade. I like read books, learn and understand what avenues there are for changing society in radical ways... in addition to watching Canucks hockey. If that doesn't interest you, that's your own prerogative.

 

And yes, I will continue pointing out when people don't know what they're talking about when they legimately don't. I've studied the subject matter for nearly two decades including formal education.

 

Might I ask, what's your area of expertise? Maybe it's jet engines. Let's say it is.

 

That is something I have no idea about and have zero place to speak on. But here how many people are saying what this or that means this or that does acting as if their words are some fundamental truth yet having never studied the terms or concepts in any real depth to even speak about. That's the issue here.

 

I wouldn't tell @Ribs how to code the site or what function does what and what the outcome would be based on my own extensive knowledge in the discipline. Which is very little. Not my area of focus.

 

And if I did act like I knew while being totally wrong, he'd be just as justified in telling me to read a book on C++ or whatever the fuck and post a bunch of Wikipedia links to show me. And I'd read them because I'd want to understand why someone was telling me i was wrong about something.

 

It's called humility, boys.

 

(Granted I wouldn't do that in first place.)

 

This is not to say this thread is meant to be some fucking seminar for me to flex, but if people come with this pompous "I already know" attitude and spout their proud misconceptions with zero willingness to understand then what do you expect.

 

But I'm glad you took yourself out of the conversation if that's what you want to do. Saves me the time having to correct you over and over like so many others.  Shit is exhausting.

 

Granted, that's Brandolini's Law for you.

 

Brandolini's law, also known as the bullshit asymmetry principle, is an internet adage coined in 2013 that emphasizes the effort of debunking misinformation, in comparison to the relative ease of creating it in the first place. The law states the following:

 

    The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.

 

The rise of easy popularization of ideas through the internet has greatly increased the relevant examples, but the asymmetry principle itself has long been recognized.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini's_law

 

Fucking christ.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Canuckle

[PistolPete13]

On 10/11/2023 at 10:31 AM, Canuckle said:

You didn't answer the question because you don't know.  Thank you for admitting that.

 

Save the works "best" nonsense for the uninitiated, thanks.

I see that you are quoting a lot of literature to support your viewpoint .

That’s very good as it strengthens your argument. You come across as highly educated and well read. But did you know that your communicating with a diverse audience and something can be lost on the translation. For example. I refuse to look up the word hegemon. Whenever I see that word, I think what the fuck does that mean, and then I press on.

I own a small corporation, which has one employee. That would be me. I don’t exploit anyone and I’m not a slave owner. I just work my ass off providing services to willing customers who are in no way coerced to use those services.

Nobody suffers, it is a win win. 
 

Most corporations in Canada are single owner or mom and pop businesses. None of them subjecting anyone to slavery.

 

Your fuck the corporations comments are jarring.  But no further comment on that. 

The Canadian government has been increasing the corporate tax rate substantially since 2017. All in the name of taxing those rich bastards, many of us who didn’t know we were all that rich before JT told us so. I just love stereotypes, don’t you. 

Peole who own corporations get double taxed, once at the corporate level and once again at the personal level when they draw the money out. It’s probably time to wind up my corporation and operate as a sole proprietorship.

 

 I came to see if there would be some give and take, in this discussion. 
I’m disappointed to see that posters who don’t share a certain viewpoint just “don’t know” or are just speaking nonsense.

Respect  for our fellow man should be an esteemed value, in any system you care to advocate. 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by PistolPete13

[Ilunga]

2 minutes ago, PistolPete13 said:

I see that you are quoting a lot of literature to support your viewpoint .

That’s very good as it strengthens your argument. You come across as highly educated and well read. But did you know that your communicating with a diverse audience and something can be lost on the translation. For example. I refuse to look up the word hegemon. Whenever I see that word, I think what the fuck does that mean, and then I press on.

I own a small corporation, which has one employee. That would be me. I don’t exploit anyone and I’m not a slave owner. I just work my ass off providing services to willing customers who are in no way coerced to use those services.

Nobody suffers, it is a win win. 
 

Most corporations in Canada are single owner or mom and pop businesses. None of them subjecting anyone to slavery.

 

Your fuck the corporations comments are jarring.  But no further comment on that. 

The Canadian government has been increasing the corporate tax rate substantially since 2017. All in the name of taxing those rich bastards, many of us who didn’t know we were all that rich before JT told us so. I just love stereotypes, don’t you. 

Peole who own corporations get double taxed, once at the corporate level and once again at the personal leve, when they draw the money out. It’s probably time to wind up my corporation and operate as a sole proprietorship.

 

 I came to see if there would be some give and take, in this discussion. 
I’m disappointed to see that posters who don’t share a certain viewpoint just “don’t know” or are just speaking nonsense.

Redpect for our fellow man should be an esteemed value, in any system you care to advocate. 

 

 

 

 

Hey Pete, I am a one person operation, flower farmer.

Here in Aus, I operate as a sole trader.

Tax rates like every one else has to pay.

Tax free threshold 18k, 19cents in the dollar up to 45k, 32.5 cents up to 120k. 

There is a Medicare levy. 

I am not conversant with the Canadian system however being a sole trader sounds like a better option for you under our system.

 

Love your last comment by the way.

[PistolPete13]

On 10/11/2023 at 10:38 AM, Bob Long said:

 

looks to be about average or a little below in nordic countries: 

 

 

When you consider integration of corporate and personal tax rates ( pay corporate tax and then pay personal tax on a dividend from your corporation)   It is actually better to pay all of the company’s income out as a wage to yourself, at the higher tax brackets.

 

Canada has been attacking small business corporations since 2017. 

 

 

 

[PistolPete13]

16 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

Hey Pete, I am a one person operation, flower farmer.

Here in Aus, I operate as a sole trader.

Tax rates like every one else has to pay.

Tax free threshold 18k, 19cents in the dollar up to 45k, 32.5 cents up to 120k. 

There is a Medicare levy. 

I am not conversant with the Canadian system however being a sole trader sounds like a better option for you under our system.

 

Love your last comment by the way.

Back at you. I work as an international tax preparer. Mostly US and Canada, but  I have done UK and New Zealand (of all places).

 

IMO The Kiwis have the best tax system in the world. Their personal tax return is an eight page document and they only tax rents, gains and other investment income. The majority of their taxes is raised by way of a Value acdded tax VAT. Similar to Canada’s GST.

The idea is to tax a person when they spend their income, not when they earn if.

 

They say that taxation is the art of plucking feathers from the goose m, with the least amount of hissing. 
 

 

BC’s top tax rate is 53.6.%. On income over $240,000. 
 

If you don’t need all of the money that your corporation earns, you can pay 11% on small business income ( up to $500,000) and then only take out what you need to live on and pay tax on it. 

This deferral opportunity is the last advantage their is to having a corporation. Problem is, when you get old you have to drain all the money out of your corporation and pay tax on it before you did.

 

The taxation shit hits the fan at that time.

cheers brother.

Edited October 24, 2023 by PistolPete13

[Canuckle]

50 minutes ago, PistolPete13 said:

I see that you are quoting a lot of literature to support your viewpoint .

That’s very good as it strengthens your argument. You come across as highly educated and well read. But did you know that your communicating with a diverse audience and something can be lost on the translation. For example. I refuse to look up the word hegemon. Whenever I see that word, I think what the fuck does that mean, and then I press on.

I own a small corporation, which has one employee. That would be me. I don’t exploit anyone and I’m not a slave owner. I just work my ass off providing services to willing customers who are in no way coerced to use those services.

Nobody suffers, it is a win win. 
 

Most corporations in Canada are single owner or mom and pop businesses. None of them subjecting anyone to slavery.

 

Your fuck the corporations comments are jarring.  But no further comment on that. 

The Canadian government has been increasing the corporate tax rate substantially since 2017. All in the name of taxing those rich bastards, many of us who didn’t know we were all that rich before JT told us so. I just love stereotypes, don’t you. 

Peole who own corporations get double taxed, once at the corporate level and once again at the personal leve, when they draw the money out. It’s probably time to wind up my corporation and operate as a sole proprietorship.

 

 I came to see if there would be some give and take, in this discussion. 
I’m disappointed to see that posters who don’t share a certain viewpoint just “don’t know” or are just speaking nonsense.

Redpect for our fellow mTan should be an esteemed value, in any system you care to advocate.

Hegemon - something (such as a political state) having dominant influence or authority over others : one possessing hegemony.

 

 

For starters, i appreciate your good faith reply.

 

Secondly, you're right about your place in the game. You're self-employed. You don't currently exploit anyones labour to provide your livlihood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation_of_labour

 

When I speak in terms of capitalist "slavery" it's in reference to one's relationship to capital itself. Wage slavery is a term for good reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

 

Having said that, you are at the behest of the market place like anyone else providing a particular set of goods and services. And if exploitation is high for a producer of a similar good or service, you may be forced to match the prices of your competitor if you want to survive as well. An equally unfair situation forced by the capitalist market place. And I certainly understand that is not an easy place to be either.

 

When you say most businesses in Canada are mom and pop shop, do these places hire a labour force outside mom and pop? If so, the above terms apply here.

 

See and that's the problem with the system itself. It fundamentally pins people against eachother

 

The way private property rights work, in top down structure owners/workers we are either slave owners or slaves. From slave society to feudalism to capitalism these fundamental social relationships have never really changed at the core. But that's the system forced on us.

 

Not to say the people who engage and benefit are bad people from some moral standpoint (although they can be if they flaunt/enforce that power in a number of ways) but rather those are the choices in the institution. For if there was no labour exploitation it would cease to be a capitalist institution.

 

Speaking of Corporations, there is aa great documentary Film called "The Corporation" (2003) based on, UBC Law Professor, Joel Bakan's book of the same name i would highly recommend everyone watch:

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Canuckle

[Ilunga]

34 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Hegemon - something (such as a political state) having dominant influence or authority over others : one possessing hegemony.

 

 

For starters, i appreciate your good faith reply.

 

Secondly, you're right about your place in the game. You're self-employed. You don't currently exploit anyones labour to provide your livlihood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation_of_labour

 

When I speak in terms of capitalist "slavery" it's in reference to one's relationship to capital itself. Wage slavery is a term for good reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

 

Having said that, you are at the behest of the market place like anyone else providing a particular set of goods and services. And if exploitation is high for a producer of a similar good or service, you may be forced to match the prices of your competitor if you want to survive as well. An equally unfair situation forced by the capitalist market place. And I certainly understand that is not an easy place to be either.

 

When you say most businesses in Canada are mom and pop shop, do these places hire a labour force outside mom and pop? If so, the above terms apply here.

 

See and that's the problem with the system itself. It fundamentally pins people against eachother

 

The way private property rights work, in top down structure owners/workers we are either slave owners or slaves. From slave society to feudalism to capitalism these fundamental social relationships have never really changed at the core. But that's the system forced on us.

 

Not to say the people who engage and benefit are bad people from some moral standpoint (although they can be if they flaunt/enforce that power in a number of ways) but rather those are the choices in the institution. For if there was no labour exploitation it would cease to be a capitalist institution.

 

Speaking of Corporations, there is aa great documentary Film called "The Corporation" (2003) based on, UBC Law Professor, Joel Bakan's book of the same name i would highly recommend everyone watch:

 

 

 

I have seen The Corporation twice, have a flyer on my wall.

 

I have also watched The New Corporation 

The Unfortunately Necessary Sequel 

 

 

 

Must see viewing IMO.

[Canuckle]

2 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

 

I have seen The Corporation twice, have a flyer on my wall.

 

I have also watched The New Corporation 

The Unfortunately Necessary Sequel 

 

 

 

Must see viewing IMO.

 

Oh fucking rights!

 

If I recall you were the one that saying you're an avid Noam Chomsky reader as well. Of course you love this stuff like I do.

That's a big cheers to you, my friend!

[StrayDog]

Please explain your version of anarchism to me. No links, no memes, no "look it up", no "go read these 47 books and you'll get it", no "but capitalism..!". You have set yourself up as an authority on it, and an authority on anything should be able to explain their thing succinctly. I would like a succinct explanation. 

It's all many of us who are questioning you want: a succinct and simple explanation of your anarchism.

[Bob Long]

7 hours ago, Canuckle said:

 

Who said I was trying to convince the converted of anything LMAO.

 

The act of posting the information to enlighten others is enough in and of itself. Not everyone comments.  But at least some people reading will gain  insight to concepts they may or may not have been previously familiar with.

 

Agitate. Educate. Organize.

 

All they're getting from you guys is the typical capitalist cheerleading propaganda.

 

And you're fighting so hard it's almost like you'd have something to lose if these ideas took hold on a wide scale again. Like how workers movements got things like... *gasp*... the 8 hour work day!!!!!... and *gasp*... pensions!!! Workers co-ops everywhere???!!! Oh God!!!  Not a more equitable distribution of the fruits of our labour!!!!

 

 

But you haven't enlightened anyone. Not sure why you're taking the abrasive path but it doesn't matter. All you've done is demonstrate you don't actually have a viable alternative.

[Bob Long]

4 hours ago, PistolPete13 said:

When you consider integration of corporate and personal tax rates ( pay corporate tax and then pay personal tax on a dividend from your corporation)   It is actually better to pay all of the company’s income out as a wage to yourself, at the higher tax brackets.

 

Canada has been attacking small business corporations since 2017. 

 

 

 

 

It is disappointing for sure. It's an area I had hoped the Libs would have done better.