Economic Models/Systems For Society Today/Tomorrow

[Playoff Beered]

2 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Boogie boogie, Aqua.

 

Strong point, you seem very wise.

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

"I said "go pick me a beet" because thats where your theories always end up, with someone doing the work no one else wants to do, but they are forced to, often at gunpoint"

 

LMAO

 

Welcome to fucking capitalism,bud.

 

Coercive force comes in many different forms. And no I won't pick your blueberries, Aqua.  And no one else should have their entire livlihood, their ability to survive doing that either.

 

Doesn't need to be a literal gun, genius. The power relationship is exactly the same regardless.

 

Work for the property owners or risk death on the streets.

 

But of course you'll overlook and handwave to continue with this half assed smear campaign about the evil socccialisms. Boogie boogie, Aqua.

 

 

 

 

[Canuckle]

1 minute ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Strong point, you seem very wise.

 

Thanks.

[Canuckle]

3 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Sure, blueberry man.

 

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Sure, blueberry man.

 

 

Hey did you know he's developing a 40 acre building site in Burnaby with a first Nations group?

 

What did your anarchist group do today?

[StrayDog]

1 hour ago, Canuckle said:

 

One cannot teach whose who do not wish to learn.

 

And yet, when I have asked twice now to provide your thoughts on it - on how it works - I have twice gotten noninformation. This is a discussion board. I wanted a discussion on theory, not homework.

One cannot learn from one who will not teach.

[StrayDog]

38 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

 

What did your anarchist group do today?

I'm pretty certain they posted at least a dozen links. Take THAT, Capitalism!

[Canuckle]

43 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

Hey did you know he's developing a 40 acre building site in Burnaby with a first Nations group?

 

What did your anarchist group do today?

 

Nice to hear they're using the money they've usurped from the working class to invest in projects that will continue making them and their investors money... under the guise of doing "good works" no less. Let's not pretend like these are purely altruistic fucking acts here. If their wasn't profit to be made in some way, they wouldn't do it in the first place.  Capitalism in a nutshell right there.

 

And of course sidestepping how those dollars were made to invest in such development projects in the first place.

 

Nobody is questioning the systems that can in fact benefit some people. The question is why are systems of exploitation and private property rights requirements to do "good works" in the first place.  They aren't.  They are right now because that's the current system enforced and codified by law, but doesn't make it some law of nature or mean there aren't equal or better alternatives.  But we're not allowed to talk about those are we.

 

What did my anarchist "group" do today?

 

We picked your blueberries, Aqua. You should know.

 

Feudal lords by any other name.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Canuckle

[Bob Long]

3 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

I'm pretty certain they posted at least a dozen links. Take THAT, Capitalism!

 

I heard they wanted to sell some Chomsky coffee mugs but couldn't agree on the mode of production.

[Canuckle]

7 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

And yet, when I have asked twice now to provide your thoughts on it - on how it works - I have twice gotten noninformation. This is a discussion board. I wanted a discussion on theory, not homework.

One cannot learn from one who will not teach.

 

 

[StrayDog]

1 minute ago, Bob Long said:

 

I heard they wanted to sell some Chomsky coffee mugs but couldn't agree on the mode of production.

Are they allowed to sell mugs? Wouldn't that be taking part in capitalism? 

[StrayDog]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

 

 

Oh good. A meme. All I need now is for you to give me a "But Capitalism...!" and you'll hit the trifecta!

[Canuckle]

19 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

Are they allowed to sell mugs? Wouldn't that be taking part in capitalism? 

 

We're all forced to play the game in someway to survive, bud. Dismantle oppressive systems where and when we can is the name of the game.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Canuckle

[Canuckle]

10 hours ago, aGENT said:

 

I still struggle to see how it works in an imperfect system (aka reality).  You're always going to have people who want "more" and will simply move on to some other form of "currency" and power. Anywhere from simple healthy ambitious people, to the borderline-full blown sociopaths frequently at the top of their industries will want to push for and exert power. All the "education" in the world isn't going to change that. A system that only works under absolute perfect conditions just isn't the answer.

 

Not that capitalism is free from some of these concerns, but it doesn't seem to lead to as many direct deaths when under imperfect conditions. By all means it's needs strong regulation and fair tax systems in place to support social safety nets, infrastructure and some moderate wealth redistribution (and good governance to do so). All things were having very real issues with today.

 

I'm not sure why you speak like "having more" is some fundamental law of nature. It's really not. All you're talking about is people being socialized, conditioned to act and think in certain ways due to the systems and structures in which we are wrought. Systems like capitalism not only perpetuate such behaviours, they help create them in the first place.

 

You don't need a system that "works in perfect conditions" to understand that dismantling certain oppresive power structures whether patriarchy, oligarchy, etc.  limit peoples abilities to BE psychopaths in the first place.

 

People will always strive to be the best at things. People will always want to understand how to create new things-- Humans are naturally inquisitive creatures. The person who invented  the wheel didn't do it for a buck. Steve Wozniak didn't build his first computer to make a buck. He did it to see if he could do it.

 

Spoiler alert: Capitalism has killed more than all those "imperfect systems" combined. Its a fact. From colonialism, to imperialist wars, all the way to the denial of  things like medical care and subsequent death because people don't have money to pay. Even cheap things to produce like insulin. Pay me or die. Many have and many do everyday.

Simply put: capitalism is a system that values profits over human lives.

 

And these are all products of the same underlying oppressive systems of private property for private gain and it happens everyday in ways that are so  normalized people fail to even recognize it. Yes, capitalism kills. And it kills a lot.

 

And yes, all the education in the world will change these things you discussed. But it's not just about education. It's changing how and what we're educated with in the first place.

 

Afterall, it's pretty hard to know what the answers are if you don't even know what questions to ask in the first place.

 

While social Democratic ideas found in places in Sweden, Norway, Finland are obviously better than the virtual ayncrapistan nightmare of the United States, even Nordic countries rely on exploitation to do it, nor is social democracy the means to achieving the kind of liberty, equality, and fraternity that would benefit ALL-- It's little more than a band-aid on gangrene, unfortunately. Treating the symptoms rather than the disease.

 

See:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1900/reform-revolution/

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Canuckle

[Playoff Beered]

3 hours ago, Canuckle said:

"Debunked."  Nope.

 

Brandolini's law. You bet. So much cold war capitalist circle jerk garbage its funny lol

 

100% debunked. Google it.

[Canuckle]

30 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

100% debunked. Google it.

 

100% true. Capitalism kills.

If You’re Surprised, You Haven’t Been Paying Attention

When many Americans think about unfortunate people dying in poverty, they usually picture children in a far-off land staring forlornly into the camera like in some heart-string tugging charity commercial. But in reality, the problem is a lot closer to home.

Dwindling safety nets, stagnant wages, and a lack of community resources are driving more and more Americans into a level of poverty that will claim nearly 1 million lives each year. That’s more deaths caused by capitalism than heart disease or cancer. Significantly more.

This is happening in our own backyards, or on the sidewalks in front of our houses and businesses.

Wow, That’s a Lot of People Dying in Poverty

It is a lot. It’s certainly too many. And it’s even more shocking when you consider that the total number of Americans who die each year is just over 3 million. So shocking that you might be wondering where this number comes from, and that’s totally fair.

The exact number, 874,000, comes from a Columbia University study conducted in 2011, which studied deaths between 1980 and 2007. Because of the age of the study and the worsening economic conditions we’ve been facing in the past several years, we may well have broken the 1 million mark by now. 

The study found the following data for the year 2000:

• Low education accounted for approximately 245,000 deaths
• Racial segregation accounted for approximately 176,000 deaths
• Low social support accounted for approximately 162,000 deaths
• Individual-level poverty accounted for approximately 133,000 deaths
• Income inequality accounted for approximately 119,000 deaths
• Area-level poverty accounted for approximately 39,000 deaths

The researchers refer to all these things as “social ills,” AKA byproducts of capitalism.

How Does Capitalism Kill?

Capitalism can become a factor in an individual’s death in various ways. It can be as straightforward as not being able to afford sufficient food or shelter and dying from malnutrition or exposure. Or it can be a bit more insidious.

Capitalism, or sometimes a fear of any other system but capitalism, is the cultural force that keeps Americans paying astronomical amounts for mediocre healthcare. Capitalism keeps higher education both exclusive and expensive. It also keeps people overworked, underpaid and too beaten down to organize and engage with their communities.

Capitalism is what keeps people living – and dying – in poverty. Income inequality isn’t only about income. People with the lowest incomes have an average life expectancy of six and a half years lower than those with the highest incomes. That’s before we even start discussing quality of life.

What’s Capitalism Got to Do with This?!?!

If you’re particularly fond of our current economic system, you may feel a bit defensive now. But capitalism is the engine powering the rest of the broken-down old car that got us here.

Capitalism is the context by which we decide that certain people’s lives are worth more than others. Capitalism says it’s ok for some people to live longer, more comfortable lives than others simply because their families hoarded more of our resources for themselves. Because they have more …capital.

Capitalism incentivizes growth and accumulation of wealth. That’s what a lot of people like about it. But how we see that playing out in practice is that a handful of extremely wealthy people are “incentivized” to hoard as many resources as possible – no matter the human cost. And I’m sure you’re well aware that once you have a nice little hoard beneath you, it’s much easier to keep accumulating more and more ad infinitum, leaving less and less to split between the rest of us.

Capitalism always demands more profit, which leads to cutting expenses, which leads to lowered wages and non-existent benefits. Capitalism takes workers for granted, operating off the value they produce but never valuing them enough to allow them to keep producing efficiently.

A lot of this goes unchecked for one of two reasons:

• First, many politicians who could most directly influence change are getting just enough of the pie not to make a fuss about it.
• Second, the average person cannot truly conceptualize just how much money billionaires have.

We understand it conceptually but not contextually. Just watch someone’s mind be blown when you tell them that one million seconds amounts to just under 12 days, while 1 billion seconds adds up to 31 years.

There Shouldn’t Be any Billionaires While People Are Still Sleeping on the Streets

And that shouldn’t be a radical statement to make. Really it just seems like common sense. In a country where we have all the necessary resources to prevent the suffering and death caused by homelessness, but choose not to in favor of one super-rich guy taking a little joy ride to space, something needs to change drastically.

It would be great if every billionaire could reconnect with their humanity and empathize enough with their fellow humans to redistribute their wealth more equitably voluntarily. But that hasn’t happened yet, and studies suggest that it’s unlikely ever to happen. So we’ll have to help them out.

Talk to your representatives and tell them you don’t support a handful of people holding onto more wealth than they could spend even in their inflated lifetimes while your unhoused neighbors shiver on the street.

Engage with your local community to see who has a need you can fill and who might be able to fill one of yours. Talk to your coworkers about how much you make. It may be uncomfortable initially, but keeping this secret only helps your employer pay you all less than they should. Support your local politicians’ efforts toward making the essentials of daily living more affordable for all.

Capitalism has slowly but surely robbed us of our local community, living wages, affordable housing, health care, and education. Let’s do what we can to get them back.

 

AND ON A GLOBAL SCALE THE KILL COUNT IS FAR FAR HIGHER EVERY YEAR.

 

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2010.300086

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Canuckle

[Playoff Beered]

18 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

100% true. Capitalism kills an estimated 3 million in the US a year alone. Google it.

If You’re Surprised, You Haven’t Been Paying Attention

When many Americans think about unfortunate people dying in poverty, they usually picture children in a far-off land staring forlornly into the camera like in some heart-string tugging charity commercial. But in reality, the problem is a lot closer to home.

Dwindling safety nets, stagnant wages, and a lack of community resources are driving more and more Americans into a level of poverty that will claim nearly 1 million lives each year. That’s more deaths caused by capitalism than heart disease or cancer. Significantly more.

This is happening in our own backyards, or on the sidewalks in front of our houses and businesses.

Wow, That’s a Lot of People Dying in Poverty

It is a lot. It’s certainly too many. And it’s even more shocking when you consider that the total number of Americans who die each year is just over 3 million. So shocking that you might be wondering where this number comes from, and that’s totally fair.

The exact number, 874,000, comes from a Columbia University study conducted in 2011, which studied deaths between 1980 and 2007. Because of the age of the study and the worsening economic conditions we’ve been facing in the past several years, we may well have broken the 1 million mark by now. 

The study found the following data for the year 2000:

• Low education accounted for approximately 245,000 deaths
• Racial segregation accounted for approximately 176,000 deaths
• Low social support accounted for approximately 162,000 deaths
• Individual-level poverty accounted for approximately 133,000 deaths
• Income inequality accounted for approximately 119,000 deaths
• Area-level poverty accounted for approximately 39,000 deaths

The researchers refer to all these things as “social ills,” AKA byproducts of capitalism.

How Does Capitalism Kill?

Capitalism can become a factor in an individual’s death in various ways. It can be as straightforward as not being able to afford sufficient food or shelter and dying from malnutrition or exposure. Or it can be a bit more insidious.

Capitalism, or sometimes a fear of any other system but capitalism, is the cultural force that keeps Americans paying astronomical amounts for mediocre healthcare. Capitalism keeps higher education both exclusive and expensive. It also keeps people overworked, underpaid and too beaten down to organize and engage with their communities.

Capitalism is what keeps people living – and dying – in poverty. Income inequality isn’t only about income. People with the lowest incomes have an average life expectancy of six and a half years lower than those with the highest incomes. That’s before we even start discussing quality of life.

What’s Capitalism Got to Do with This?!?!

If you’re particularly fond of our current economic system, you may feel a bit defensive now. But capitalism is the engine powering the rest of the broken-down old car that got us here.

Capitalism is the context by which we decide that certain people’s lives are worth more than others. Capitalism says it’s ok for some people to live longer, more comfortable lives than others simply because their families hoarded more of our resources for themselves. Because they have more …capital.

Capitalism incentivizes growth and accumulation of wealth. That’s what a lot of people like about it. But how we see that playing out in practice is that a handful of extremely wealthy people are “incentivized” to hoard as many resources as possible – no matter the human cost. And I’m sure you’re well aware that once you have a nice little hoard beneath you, it’s much easier to keep accumulating more and more ad infinitum, leaving less and less to split between the rest of us.

Capitalism always demands more profit, which leads to cutting expenses, which leads to lowered wages and non-existent benefits. Capitalism takes workers for granted, operating off the value they produce but never valuing them enough to allow them to keep producing efficiently.

A lot of this goes unchecked for one of two reasons:

• First, many politicians who could most directly influence change are getting just enough of the pie not to make a fuss about it.
• Second, the average person cannot truly conceptualize just how much money billionaires have.

We understand it conceptually but not contextually. Just watch someone’s mind be blown when you tell them that one million seconds amounts to just under 12 days, while 1 billion seconds adds up to 31 years.

There Shouldn’t Be any Billionaires While People Are Still Sleeping on the Streets

And that shouldn’t be a radical statement to make. Really it just seems like common sense. In a country where we have all the necessary resources to prevent the suffering and death caused by homelessness, but choose not to in favor of one super-rich guy taking a little joy ride to space, something needs to change drastically.

It would be great if every billionaire could reconnect with their humanity and empathize enough with their fellow humans to redistribute their wealth more equitably voluntarily. But that hasn’t happened yet, and studies suggest that it’s unlikely ever to happen. So we’ll have to help them out.

Talk to your representatives and tell them you don’t support a handful of people holding onto more wealth than they could spend even in their inflated lifetimes while your unhoused neighbors shiver on the street.

Engage with your local community to see who has a need you can fill and who might be able to fill one of yours. Talk to your coworkers about how much you make. It may be uncomfortable initially, but keeping this secret only helps your employer pay you all less than they should. Support your local politicians’ efforts toward making the essentials of daily living more affordable for all.

Capitalism has slowly but surely robbed us of our local community, living wages, affordable housing, health care, and education. Let’s do what we can to get them back.

 

AND ON A GLOBAL SCALE THE KILL COUNT IS FAR FAR HIGHER EVERY YEAR.

 

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2010.300086

 

Meh, that's just a Kayla Robbins opinion piece, you googled wrong, try again and maybe this time put more effort into it.

[Canuckle]

1 minute ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Meh, that's just a Kayla Robbins opinion piece, you googled wrong, try again and maybe this time put more effort into it.

Hahahaahahhaa

 

you couldn't even be bothered to read where the data came from.

 

"...you might be wondering where this number comes from, and that’s totally fair.

The exact number, 874,000, comes from a Columbia University study conducted in 2011..."

 

[PistolPete13]

When I meet God. What would she say?

[Playoff Beered]

9 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Hahahaahahhaa

 

you couldn't even be bothered to read where the data came from.

 

"...you might be wondering where this number comes from, and that’s totally fair.

The exact number, 874,000, comes from a Columbia University study conducted in 2011..."

 

Nope you're wrong, I read it all. Try again. It says it right in the title, estimated. They estimated wrong.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Playoff Beered

[Canuckle]

1 minute ago, Playoff Beered said:

Nope you're wrong, I read it all. Try again.

 

I know reading is hard for some. I won't fault you for that.

[Canuckle]

5 minutes ago, PistolPete13 said:

When I meet God. What would she say?

Likely nothing because God doesn't exist.

 

Maybe I can piss off the vehement theists now as well.

[Canuckle]

11 minutes ago, Playoff Beered said:

 

Nope you're wrong, I read it all. Try again. It says it right in the title, estimated. They estimated wrong.

 

And I ESTIMATE that you got jack.

Estimated Deaths Attributable to Social Factors in the United States

Sandro Galea MD, DrPH, Melissa Tracy MPH, Katherine J. Hoggatt PhD, Charles DiMaggio PhD, and Adam Karpati MD, MPH

 

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2010.300086

 

 

[PistolPete13]

7 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Likely nothing because God doesn't exist.

 

Maybe I can piss off the vehement theists now as well.

That’s better. I appreciate that you’re communicating on a more basic level here. 

As a sic “lapsed” Catholic, I’m not likely to ever meet their god. I’m not a bad person, so no hell either.  Purgatory is also not likely in the cards. In Cathechism class the nuns told us about

Limbo. A place for the otherwise good non-believers go.  See you there. 

[4petesake]

21 minutes ago, PistolPete13 said:

That’s better. I appreciate that you’re communicating on a more basic level here. 

As a sic “lapsed” Catholic, I’m not likely to ever meet their god. I’m not a bad person, so no hell either.  Purgatory is also not likely in the cards. In Cathechism class the nuns told us about

Limbo. A place for the otherwise good non-believers go.  See you there. 

 

I had forgotten all about being taught the concept of limbo in catechism. Bad news though I just read that in 1992 the church dropped all mention of limbo from their catechism classes and in 2007 Pope Benedict officially laid the concept to rest. We’ll have to find somewhere else to meet up.