Economic Models/Systems For Society Today/Tomorrow

[Alflives]

14 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Oh Alf they are too evolved for leaders. 

I like the concept of this ideal world but realize Star Trek is a TV show and Gene Roddenberry was a romantic. I think President Biden said it best when he mention the 15% of people who mess things up for the rest. In an ideal world what is fine with this group? What do we do with this 1 billion people? 

[Canuckle]

23 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

 

Cool so insults. That is a great way to get people on your side.

 

Just explain it simply. Or maybe that's the problem, you can't. You have to abstract this anarchist nonsense to the point where it's not practical.

 

Just explain it like I'm 5. How do I choose in your utopia? What job I have or where I live?

 

 

It doesn't work like that. Nobody would be choosing for you like they do in capitalism. Ie. Work for someone who will exploit your labour for their benefits or risk death on the streets.

 

All you're doing is repeating false premises over and over.

 

Tell me how it would work if a dog was truck driver on Mars and Elmer Fudd  burned him with a cigarette.

 

An equally absurd premise.

 

[Canuckle]

8 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I like the concept of this ideal world but realize Star Trek is a TV show and Gene Roddenberry was a romantic. I think President Biden said it best when he mention the 15% of people who mess things up for the rest. In an ideal world what is fine with this group? What do we do with this 1 billion people? 

It's actually closer to 1% who mess it up for the rest. And they sit atop the class pyramid.

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

It's actually closer to 1% who mess it up for the rest. And they sit atop the class pyramid.

 

I very much like the concept where, like in Star Trek, everyone has a role in society. And we all do what’s best for our neighbors (mankind) instead of ourselves. But President Biden did state 15%. (IMHAO Biden was wrong but in the other direction. Look at how many US people voted for Trump) But let’s use 10% as the number of those people who will cause problems to our ideal world. That’s still 800 million people. What do we do with these folks? Are they just filling up the prisons?  Sadly, there are a great many people who will get in the way of any efforts to make our world a better place. 

 

[Canuckle]

19 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I very much like the concept where, like in Star Trek, everyone has a role in society. And we all do what’s best for our neighbors (mankind) instead of ourselves. But President Biden did state 15%. (IMHAO Biden was wrong but in the other direction. Look at how many US people voted for Trump) But let’s use 10% as the number of those people who will cause problems to our ideal world. That’s still 800 million people. What do we do with these folks? Are they just filling up the prisons?  Sadly, there are a great many people who will get in the way of any efforts to make our world a better place.

 

Also a false premise.

 

The world is not divided between left and right blue or red.

 

It is divided between top and bottom.

 

It is but false consciousness-- a failure to recognize one's own class position and derived from the systems the powerful use to convince us otherwise.

 

In political science, the term class conflict (also class struggle, class warfare, capital-labour conflict) refers to the theory that recognizes the political tension and economic antagonism that exist among the social classes of society, because of socioeconomic competition for resources among the social classes, between the rich and the poor. In the political and economic philosophies of Karl Marx and Mikhail Bakunin, class struggle is a central tenet and a practical means for effecting radical sociopolitical changes for the social majority, the working class.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_conflict

 

 But yes, I wouldn't be opposed to jailing the 1% if they opposed peaceful means of transition liberty, equality, fraternity.  I mean the French obvously had other ways of dealing with them but jail is one option (if need be.)

 

As in the words of good ol JFK "those that make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable."

Edited October 24, 2023 by Canuckle

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

 

Also a false premise.

 

The world is not divided between left and right blue or red.

 

It is divided between top and bottom.

 

It is but false consciousness-- a failure to recognize one's own class position and derived from the systems the powerful use to convince us otherwise.

 

In political science, the term class conflict (also class struggle, class warfare, capital-labour conflict) refers to the theory that recognizes the political tension and economic antagonism that exist among the social classes of society, because of socioeconomic competition for resources among the social classes, between the rich and the poor. In the political and economic philosophies of Karl Marx and Mikhail Bakunin, class struggle is a central tenet and a practical means for effecting radical sociopolitical changes for the social majority, the working class.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_conflict

 

 But yes, I wouldn't be opposed to jailing the 1% if the oppose.  I mean the French had other ways of dealing with them but jail is one option if need be.

 

As in the words of good ol JFK "those that make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable."

Regardless of how we divide up the world the fact remains there will always be 10-15% of the population who just don’t fit in and cause problems for those who are trying to do what’s best for all. 
Rather than arguing over the number let’s find out what we do with this 1 billion people. Do we build more and bigger prisons? We need to do something with them, right? If we don’t they will mess up the works. 

[Canuckle]

8 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Regardless of how we divide up the world the fact remains there will always be 10-15% of the population who just don’t fit in and cause problems for those who are trying to do what’s best for all. 
Rather than arguing over the number let’s find out what we do with this 1 billion people. Do we build more and bigger prisons? We need to do something with them, right? If we don’t they will mess up the works. 

Actually I'm going to retract my last comment here and actually explain.

 

For starters that 10-15% figure is frankly unfounded. Where did you find this claim.

 

Secondly, of course the 1% will fight tooth and nail about having to give back the property usurped from working people. Afterall no one gets rich off their own labour.

 

And yes I'm sure they will use their power and wealth to resist any way they can.   Whether it's the form of the Pinkertons, FBI or any other overt or covert action using the states monopoly on violence to execute it.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Canuckle

[Alflives]

Just now, Canuckle said:

Since you keep sidestepping everything being explained ill do the same for you as I copy paste my last statement. Its exactly the same.

 

You are presenting a false premise.

 

The world is not divided between left and right blue or red.

 

It is divided between top and bottom.

 

It is but false consciousness-- a failure to recognize one's own class position and derived from the systems the powerful use to convince us otherwise.

 

In political science, the term class conflict (also class struggle, class warfare, capital-labour conflict) refers to the theory that recognizes the political tension and economic antagonism that exist among the social classes of society, because of socioeconomic competition for resources among the social classes, between the rich and the poor. In the political and economic philosophies of Karl Marx and Mikhail Bakunin, class struggle is a central tenet and a practical means for effecting radical sociopolitical changes for the social majority, the working class.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_conflict

 

 But yes, I wouldn't be opposed to jailing the 1% if they opposed peaceful means of transition liberty, equality, fraternity.  I mean the French obvously had other ways of dealing with them but jail is one option (if need be.)

 

As in the words of good ol JFK "those that make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable."

You can unilaterally suggest 1% but it’s actually at least 10% and closer to 15% if Biden is to be believed. 
Any sane person would love to live in a world like what your philosophy promotes. But there are 1 billion not so sane or agreeable people that will mess up the works. 
Alf prefers your suggested system. It’s those 1 billion people out that have him worried about how well it would work. 

[Canuckle]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

You can unilaterally suggest 1% but it’s actually at least 10% and closer to 15% if Biden is to be believed. 
Any sane person would love to live in a world like what your philosophy promotes. But there are 1 billion not so sane or agreeable people that will mess up the works. 
Alf prefers your suggested system. It’s those 1 billion people out that have him worried about how well it would work. 

For starters that 10-15% figure is frankly unfounded. Where did you find this claim.

 

Secondly, of course the 1% will fight tooth and nail about having to give back the property usurped from working people. Afterall no one gets rich off their own labour.

 

And yes I'm sure they will use their power and wealth to resist any way they can.   Whether it's the form of the Pinkertons, FBI or any other overt or covert action using the states monopoly on violence to execute it.

 

Education is a paramount. And you wonder why the corporate state is pushing their new rounds of cold war propaganda. These ideas are  threat to their whole livelihoods at the top of the class pyramid.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Canuckle

[aGENT]

6 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Actually I'm going to retract my last comment here and actually explain.

 

For starters that 10-15% figure is frankly unfounded. Where did you find this claim.

 

Secondly, of course the 1% will fight tooth and nail about having to give back the property usurped from working people. Afterall no one gets rich off their own labour

 

There's a pretty clear set of not rich people who actively vote, shop, etc, etc against their own best interests. Your going to have to deal with them outside the wealthy 1%

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

For starters that 10-15% figure is frankly unfounded. Where did you find this claim.

 

Secondly, of course the 1% will fight tooth and nail about having to give back the property usurped from working people. Afterall no one gets rich off their own labour.

 

And yes I'm sure they will use their power and wealth to resist any way they can.   Whether it's the form of the Pinkertons, FBI or any other overt or covert action using the states monopoly on violence to execute it.

I could be wrong but I think your 1% is the wealthy elite. Yes that group wouldn’t like a system where they lose their control, power, and elite status. There are a great many people who are just bad seeds (that’s the Biden 15%) and will cause serious problems regardless of the system. They will be thrives, murderers, and generally just bad seeds. They are the ones who screw up the works. They are what wax once called the “lazy and shiftless”

Thats 1 billion people! What do we do with them? 
IMHAO we need your suggested system. It’s clearly best for humanity. It’s Star Trek! I just don’t know how it would work. 
 

[Junkyard Dog]

Capitalism is the best option currently. What form of Capitalism begs the question.

 

Socialism in its purest form fails in account with human nature.

[Canuckle]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

 

There's a pretty clear set of not rich people who actively vote, shop, etc, etc against their own best interests. Your going to have to deal with them outside the wealthy 1%

Well of course. Nothing sadder than a poor rural wage slave voting republican.

 

 

Of course we'll have to deal with the converted fighting against their own emancipation. But it's a propaganda war, afterall. And Agitate. Educate. Organize is the war cry.

 

The only question I have is how bad does it have to get for people to get into the fold and engage in some form of collective direct action. We've seen it before in different ways. Whether recent Occupy Wall Street movements  or Black Lives matter movements. What happens when more and more have little chance of surviving the game. Fewer and fewer believe in the lie. And that's happening already.

[Bob Long]

1 hour ago, Canuckle said:

 

It doesn't work like that. Nobody would be choosing for you like they do in capitalism. Ie. Work for someone who will exploit your labour for their benefits or risk death on the streets.

 

All you're doing is repeating false premises over and over.

 

Tell me how it would work if a dog was truck driver on Mars and Elmer Fudd  burned him with a cigarette.

 

An equally absurd premise.

 

 

Easy the dog would bite him.

 

 

[Alflives]

31 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

For starters that 10-15% figure is frankly unfounded. Where did you find this claim.

 

Secondly, of course the 1% will fight tooth and nail about having to give back the property usurped from working people. Afterall no one gets rich off their own labour.

 

And yes I'm sure they will use their power and wealth to resist any way they can.   Whether it's the form of the Pinkertons, FBI or any other overt or covert action using the states monopoly on violence to execute it.

 

Education is a paramount. And you wonder why the corporate state is pushing their new rounds of cold war propaganda. These ideas are  threat to their whole livelihoods at the top of the class pyramid.

100% agree that education is key. Who sets the curriculum? One person’s education is another’s indoctrination, no? 
Again your suggested system win, hands down. It’s not even close. But what do we do with the 1 billion who refuse to “get along” with everyone else? 

[Canuckle]

Just now, Bob Long said:

Easy the dog would bite him.

No. He'd fuck the dog cuz he has no incentive to work cuz fully automated luxury gay space communism amirite hurr durrr  lol

 

The bottomline is the premise you provided is contingent on systems and power structures that exist now in this time and place, under these specific conditions.  And NOT a society absent of authoritarism, private property and a state appartus.

 

It doesn't make sense to speak in terms where that language itself wouldn't even apply.

 

 

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Well of course. Nothing sadder than a poor rural wage slave voting republican.

 

 

Of course we'll have to deal with the converted fighting against their own emancipation. But it's a propaganda war, afterall. And Agitate. Educate. Organize is the war cry.

 

The only question I have is how bad does it have to get for people to get into the fold and engage in some form of collective direct action. We've seen it before in different ways. Whether recent Occupy Wall Street movements  or Black Lives matter movements. What happens when more and more have little chance of surviving the game. Fewer and fewer believe in the lie. And that's happening already.

Sorry I don’t understand. In your view this is s US idea? It’s Repugs v Rats? 
I prefer your idea that we are looking at a Star Trek view where our world is better than now. 

[Bob Long]

4 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

No. He'd fuck the dog cuz he has no incentive to work cuz fully automated luxury gay space communism amirite hurr durrr  lol

 

The bottomline is the premise you provided is contingent on systems and power structures that exist now in this time and place, under these specific conditions.  And NOT a society absent of authoritarism, private property and a state appartus.

 

It doesn't make sense to speak in terms where that language itself wouldn't even apply.

 

 

 

But that abstracted society of yours can't exist. It's why these socialist schemes always fall apart.

 

You can't even give me a simple example of how choices work.

[Canuckle]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

100% agree that education is key. Who sets the curriculum? One person’s education is another’s indoctrination, no? 
Again your suggested system win, hands down. It’s not even close. But what do we do with the 1 billion who refuse to “get along” with everyone else? 

The question i have is how long until the capitalist mode of production fails them too and they start asking the right questions.

 

As in the words of Professor of Economics Richard D Wolff once said [paraphasing] "Socialism is capitalisms shadow-- It is the critique of capitalism. And as the system fails,  more and more people start asking 'Well, what else is there?"'

 

You find allies that were once enemies in short order. And the more than realize it's first and foremost a class war the more than can unite to demand more. Thats the shit Bernie Sanders was talking about.   The state and their handlers aren't going to give up their seats at the table and the systems to which they benefit willingly.  You have to demand it. By any means neccessary.

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

The question i have is how long until the capitalist mode of production fails them too and they start asking the right questions.

 

As in the words of Professor of Economics Richard D Wolff once said [paraphasing] "Socialism is capitalisms shadow-- It is the critique of capitalism. And as the system fails,  more and more people start asking 'Well, what else is there?"'

 

You find allies that were once enemies in short order. And the more than realize it's first and foremost a class war the more than can unite to demand more. Thats the shit Bernie Sanders was talking about.   The state and their handlers aren't going to give up their seats at the table and the systems to which they benefit willingly.  You have to demand it. By any means neccessary.

 

It’s hard to disagree with those views. They are utopian ideals. I doubt I get to see the world move toward such a place, but hopefully the younger fold do,. 

[Canuckle]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

It’s hard to disagree with those views. They are utopian ideals. I doubt I get to see the world move toward such a place, but hopefully the younger fold do,. 

It's ALWAYS a work in progress. That's the thing! Even if that whatever future society was achieved these principles would still apply-- always analyzing, reassessing, ever evolving and adapting.

 

Anachism isn't just some ideal of future society being sought.  It's about direct action and prefigurative politics.

 

Prefigurative politics are the modes of organization and social relationships that strive to reflect the future society being sought by the group. According to Carl Boggs, who coined the term, the desire is to embody "within the ongoing political practice of a movement [...] those forms of social relations, decision-making, culture, and human experience that are the ultimate goal".Besides this definition, Leach also gave light to the definition of the concept stating that the term "refers to a political orientation based on the premise that the ends a social movement achieves are fundamentally shaped by the means it employs, and that movement should therefore do their best to choose means that embody or prefigure the kind of society they want to bring about".Prefigurativism is the attempt to enact prefigurative politics.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefigurative_politics

 

Actually existing anarchism is the process itself. It's praxis.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Canuckle said:

It's ALWAYS a work in progress. That's the thing! Even if that whatever future society was achieved these principles would still apply-- always analyzing, reassessing, ever evolving and adapting.

 

Anachism isn't just some ideal of future society being sought.  It's about direct action and prefigurative politics.

 

Prefigurative politics are the modes of organization and social relationships that strive to reflect the future society being sought by the group. According to Carl Boggs, who coined the term, the desire is to embody "within the ongoing political practice of a movement [...] those forms of social relations, decision-making, culture, and human experience that are the ultimate goal".Besides this definition, Leach also gave light to the definition of the concept stating that the term "refers to a political orientation based on the premise that the ends a social movement achieves are fundamentally shaped by the means it employs, and that movement should therefore do their best to choose means that embody or prefigure the kind of society they want to bring about".Prefigurativism is the attempt to enact prefigurative politics.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefigurative_politics

 

Actually existing anarchism is the process itself. It's praxis.

Maybe it’s the word “anarchism” that scares people? Is there a different, and not so scary word, that would fit? 
 

[Canuckle]

30 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Sorry I don’t understand. In your view this is s US idea? It’s Repugs v Rats? 
I prefer your idea that we are looking at a Star Trek view where our world is better than now. 

 

Hopefully our later replies helped clarify this? And yes we are. As the joke goes in leftist circles,

 

Or

 

 

Lol.

 

https://old.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/5b9weg/what_is_fully_automated_luxury_gay_space_communism/

 

The graphic of the poor republican voting against their own interests was mostly to illustrate the opposition you brought up.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Canuckle

[Canuckle]

14 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Maybe it’s the word “anarchism” that scares people? Is there a different, and not so scary word, that would fit?

 

 

https://old.reddit.com/r/Anarchy101/comments/iq0uq3/i_grew_up_associating_the_word_anarchy_with/

Edited October 24, 2023 by Canuckle
;)

[Satchmo]

7 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

It's ALWAYS a work in progress. That's the thing! Even if that whatever future society was achieved these principles would still apply-- always analyzing, reassessing, ever evolving and adapting.

Actually existing anarchism is the process itself. It's praxis.

So, all we have to do is try it.  And it will work, if we just put some effort in.

 

I'm beginning to get it now.