[Article] Canucks will ‘follow the league rules’ on Pride Tape and specialty jerseys

[Swizzey]

1 hour ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Alrighty then, we'll be at an impasse with this conversation. Because in no world do I think a 30 year athlete (which is an extremely long career in any sport edit( I see above you said soccer, who's professional career often spans about 7-11 years due to the extremely physical nature of the sport and few athletes playing into their late 30s ), managed to be completely oblivious to the homophobic culture of organized sports (which is extremely well known), will then spend their retirement arguing why bricklayers are often male on a fan forum. Also why would you go 4 or 5 pages into this conversation and then mention that on passing. If you had first hand, personal experiences on a subject that was so likely to be wrong, you would have started with that instead of spending so many pages focusing on the very weak argument about bricklaying. None of the way this conversation played out makes it any more believable on top of the far-fetched nature of what your describing.

 

I take everything I read on the internet with a grain of salt, and everything I have learned about sports culture and athlete from my institutional training and degrees and many years of work experience with athletes says your statement his fabricated to make a point. 

As quoted above. I’ve spent almost 3 decades in soccer from youth to professional. Obviously I didn’t play professional soccer for 30 years  

 

Individual experiences are unique and vary greatly. The overall data and common sense on the issue has greater weight on an argument. Hence analyzing professions such as bricklayers being 99% male, nurses being 88% female, and also a low percentage of NHL hockey players being gay. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Swizzey
Typo

[Surtur]

On 10/11/2023 at 7:01 AM, Alflives said:

And it sure looks like the league gave in to those few puck suckers. 

funny thing is the entire pride thing is in support of only a small sect of our society odd how small groups have such a large impact isn't it. 

[Surtur]

On 10/11/2023 at 9:02 AM, stawns said:

It's not popular opinion, it's a small, but vocal minority

source?

[DrJockitch]

This may be a moot point.

The CBA puts no restrictions on players tape and the rules state they can use any colour they want.

Hopefully someone does start using it to challenge the NHL and call their bluff.  See how far they will go here.

[DrJockitch]

13 minutes ago, Swizzey said:

As quoted above. I’ve spent almost 3 decades in soccer from youth to professional. Obviously I didn’t play professional soccer for 30 years  

 

Individual experiences are unique and vary greatly. The overall data and common sense on the issue has greater weight on an argument. Hence analyzing professions such as bricklayers being 99% male, nurses being 88% female, and also a low percentage of NHL hockey players being gay. 

It is really a low percentage of men everywhere that are gay but fairly consistent.

There have been more than a few gay players in the league but they, like most sports just don't make it public.

We are finally starting to see openly gay male players in team sports (females way ahead of the curve there).  Given the political climate in the US in particular though I can understand why an athlete in a macho sport wouldn't want to come out publicly and frankly why should they.

[stawns]

17 minutes ago, Surtur said:

funny thing is the entire pride thing is in support of only a small sect of our society odd how small groups have such a large impact isn't it. 

that is the definition of marginalized communities, no?

[MeanSeanBean]

41 minutes ago, Swizzey said:

As quoted above. I’ve spent almost 3 decades in soccer from youth to professional. Obviously I didn’t play professional soccer for 30 years  

 

Individual experiences are unique and vary greatly. The overall data and common sense on the issue has greater weight on an argument. Hence analyzing professions such as bricklayers being 99% male, nurses being 88% female, and also a low percentage of NHL hockey players being gay. 

Meaning even if you started at 7, you played professionally until 37 which is unlikely for soccer. Also, going back to my lived experience (which is all I can judge things on) I myself played Soccer as one of my big 2 sports. Never took it overly seriously, but did play at the provincials level and early university career (though dropped out 2nd year due to being a bencher and couldn't neglect studies for not getting any pitch time). Not going to speak of homophobic culture, but I can say to my knowledge no one on my team went on to play anything past the college level, and we had a few players on the team that were extremely talented. Again, playing a sport at a professional level is very rare, someone going though that experience and also not encountering any of the inherited homophobia that is preprogrammed into team sports culture, seems entirely unbelievable. 

 

The fact that you claim to be a professional athlete, meaning you would fundamentally understand sports culture but not acknowledge that many young athletes who are Queer drop out early due to complications with their sexual identity and instead double down that you never witnessed anything that would lead you to believe that it's a major problem in organized sports (particularly with the timeline meaning you were likely active sometime through the 80s-10s where this problem was generally at it's fever pitch) is so unlikely that it's simply unbelievable to me.

Edited October 16, 2023 by MeanSeanBean

[Bob Long]

I have a hypotheses that people who obsess over bricklayers are in the closet. Prove me wrong. 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Bob Long

[Swizzey]

33 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

It is really a low percentage of men everywhere that are gay but fairly consistent.

There have been more than a few gay players in the league but they, like most sports just don't make it public.

We are finally starting to see openly gay male players in team sports (females way ahead of the curve there).  Given the political climate in the US in particular though I can understand why an athlete in a macho sport wouldn't want to come out publicly and frankly why should they.

I can see that and agree with you.

[MeanSeanBean]

47 minutes ago, Surtur said:

funny thing is the entire pride thing is in support of only a small sect of our society odd how small groups have such a large impact isn't it. 

It's not odd in the slightest. It's litterally how progress has been made in every step of society. Marginalized groups through out modern society have needed the support of larger, un-marginalized to make progress. 

 

People would still be slaves if others had not stepped forward to make change. No one would understand the tribulations of Queer people if the masses had not stood beside them through the 70-80s during the Gay Liberation movement. The average Canadian wouldn't have the slightest clue over the damage caused by residential schools to our Indigenous population if it didn't become mainstream and people started wearing Orange in support. 

 

This isn't odd, at all. It's how society functions and progresses. 

[Nucker67]

meh, it's just tape

 

Are we now going to get offended when we see a player use white tape, as opposed to black? No one is saying a group or community can't play hockey. Isn't that what this is all about anyway? Inclusivity. It's all good, everyone can play, let's move on. 

 

[Swizzey]

17 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Meaning even if you started at 7, you played professionally until 37 which is unlikely for soccer. Also, going back to my lived experience (which is all I can judge things on) I myself played Soccer as one of my big 2 sports. Never took it overly seriously, but did play at the provincials level and early university career (though dropped out 2nd year due to being a bencher and couldn't neglect studies for not getting any pitch time). Not going to speak of homophobic culture, but I can say to my knowledge no one on my team went on to play anything past the college level, and we had a few players on the team that were extremely talented. Again, playing a sport at a professional level is very rare, someone going though that experience and also not encountering any of the inherited homophobia that is preprogrammed into team sports culture, seems entirely unbelievable. 

 

The fact that you claim to be a professional athlete, meaning you would fundamentally understand sports culture but not acknowledge that many young athletes who are Queer drop out early due to complications with their sexual identity and instead double down that you never witnessed anything that would lead you to believe that it's a major problem in organized sports (particularly with the timeline meaning you were likely active sometime through the 80s-10s where this problem was generally at it's fever pitch) is so unlikely that it's simply unbelievable to me.

I’m not sure what is so hard to understand. I said I have been in the sport for almost 3 decades. I started playing when I was 4 and I now coach it full time. What’s so hard to understand here?

 

You constantly put words in my mouth and twist everything I say. I don’t NOT acknowledge that a gay kid has dropped out of a sport due to external factors. I am testifying that in 3 decades of being involved in this sport from youth to professional, I have not seen it. 
 

There is no way you played soccer “not seriously” and also played at the collegiate level. It takes a focus and mentality that goes beyond playing the sport “not seriously”.

[Swizzey]

15 minutes ago, Bob Long said:

I have a hypotheses that people who obsess over bricklayers are in the closet. Prove me wrong. 

 

 

You got me! 

[MeanSeanBean]

Just now, Swizzey said:

I’m not sure what is so hard to understand. I said I have been in the sport for almost 3 decades. I started playing when I was 4 and I now coach it full time. What’s so hard to understand here?

 

You constantly put words in my mouth and twist everything I say. I don’t NOT acknowledge that a gay kid has dropped out of a sport due to external factors. I am testifying that in 3 decades of being involved in this sport from youth to professional, I have not seen it. 
 

There is no way you played soccer “not seriously” and also played at the collegiate level. It takes a focus and mentality that goes beyond playing the sport “not seriously”.

 You are the one that specifically said professionally. What words have I put in your mouth? I don't know the extent of that, but you said professionally. So I've made the assumption that over your 30 year career at some point you considered yourself a professional (were payed for your services).  

 

And did you just acknowledge it's existence while your entire premises of your argument has been saying it's a nature over nurture? Again, I don't even believe you could coach it and not witness it at all, unless you worked for the Blackhawks.

 

And that's simply not true. This actually raises another red flag to me about you either being a professional or a coach. My own lived experience tells me you can certainly play at a high level as a teenager or young adult without taking it overly seriously. I have also worked with many young athletes who play multiple sports who are able to reach pretty high in sports that aren't particularly serious about due to natural ability and focus more on a primary sport.

[StrayDog]

9 minutes ago, Swizzey said:

There is no way you played soccer “not seriously” and also played at the collegiate level. It takes a focus and mentality that goes beyond playing the sport “not seriously”.

Must be one of those things that the gay men don't have internally. They don't have the focus or mentality for "serious" sport. I guess that's why they excel at the feminine sports like gymnastics and figure skating (oh, and dance! almost forgot). 

[MeanSeanBean]

1 minute ago, StrayDog said:

Must be one of those things that the gay men don't have internally. They don't have the focus or mentality for "serious" sport. I guess that's why they excel at the feminine sports like gymnastics and figure skating (oh, and dance! almost forgot). 

Or it's possible that those who are naturally gifted athletes can play many sports at a high level while focusing their primary efforts on their main sport? I feel like anyone who's spent any significant amount of time in sports culture has met and played with more then a handful of these naturally gifted multi sport athletes.

[Swizzey]

26 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

Must be one of those things that the gay men don't have internally. They don't have the focus or mentality for "serious" sport. I guess that's why they excel at the feminine sports like gymnastics and figure skating (oh, and dance! almost forgot). 

A bizarre statement. It had nothing to do with being gay; I don’t even know if he is. It had everything to do with exactly what I said: I don't see how someone plays a sport collegiately by “casually” playing a sport. And if he did, good on him - he is an anomaly. Or maybe he took the sport more serious than he is portraying. Regardless, congratulations because that is a very high level and great achievement.

 

Why the discrimination toward figure skating, gymnastics, and dance? To get to a professional, or even collegiate, level takes hundreds of thousands of hours accumulated over decades. Don’t belittle that!

[Swizzey]

27 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Or it's possible that those who are naturally gifted athletes can play many sports at a high level while focusing their primary efforts on their main sport? I feel like anyone who's spent any significant amount of time in sports culture has met and played with more then a handful of these naturally gifted multi sport athletes.

You are right. It is definitely possible and I played 5 sports through 10th grade plus club soccer on top of that. I realized needed to put my eggs in my best basket if I wanted to attempt a collegiate path so I focused on soccer in 11th grade quitting the others. 
 

Maybe you did “casually” end up playing a collegiate sport. It is by not impossible so good on you as that is a noble achievement. 

[Swizzey]

46 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

 You are the one that specifically said professionally. What words have I put in your mouth? I don't know the extent of that, but you said professionally. So I've made the assumption that over your 30 year career at some point you considered yourself a professional (were payed for your services).  

 

2 hours ago, Swizzey said:

I’ve spent almost 3 decades in soccer from youth to professional. 

 

46 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

And did you just acknowledge it's existence while your entire premises of your argument has been saying it's a nature over nurture? Again, I don't even believe you could coach it and not witness it at all, unless you worked for the Blackhawks.

I have acknowledged its existence on every page on this thread. Unlike you, I don’t entirely reject one because of the other. Both are in play but gays being underrepresented in the NHL is weighted more heavily on nature (internal factors) as opposed to nurture (external factors).

 

I’ve coached two teams to national championships so yes, I can coach. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Swizzey
Typo

[StrayDog]

29 minutes ago, Swizzey said:

Why the discrimination toward figure skating, gymnastics, and dance? To get to a professional, or even collegiate, level takes hundreds of thousands of hours accumulated over decades. Don’t belittle that!

You're the one that said gay men only excel in those "feminine" sports, and here you are now defending the work that goes into it. They are the same gay men that you said could never make it as NHL players because of their gayness. So why wouldn't hundreds of thousands of hours create an equally talented gay hockey player?

[MeanSeanBean]

Just now, Swizzey said:

 

 

I have acknowledged its existence on every page on this thread. Unlike you, I don’t entire reject one because the other, both are in play but gays being underrepresented in the NHL is weighted more heavily on nature (internal factors) as opposed to nurture (external factors).

 

I’ve coached two teams to national championships so yes, I can coach. 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1016/j.smr.2020.09.003

 

I would give it to you here. If you were telling the truth (again I don't think you are but putting that to the side) "Sport managers remain resistant to addressing the harm caused to this community." Would actually sum up perfectly the entire premises of your argument. But this entire research based study would contradict your mission statement.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2386427/

 

Research paper that goes into depth about some of the things I'm speaking of.

 

https://vuir.vu.edu.au/32210/3/Impact%20Paper%20Final%20(Post%20Editors%20feedback)[1].pdf

 

Another interesting read if you have time, pretty long though but goes into plenty of depth about the subject.

 

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.671586/full

 

Pretty decent Aussie study, again disputes your statements.

 

https://elibrary.law.psu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1021&context=library_faculty

 

American study that reiterates the Aussie study. But was done a few years before hand.

 

A Study Of Homosexuality In Men's Professional Team Sports In North ... https://scholarship.shu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1508&context=student_scholarship

 

This paper was Written about Jason Collins who didn't come out till his mid 30s in professional sport in part that it simply wasn't safe to do so.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945417/

 

A study that specifically addresses (and helps disproves) your theory of nature/nurture 

 

 

The following were a brief overview of papers written that specifically dispute your nature over nurture theory. It's interesting because some of these even specifically touch on your point. Oh the joys of having a background in scientific research methods due to working in an evidence based healthcare.

 

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3081938?typeAccessWorkflow=login

 

Not a research paper, but a book that explains the same thing

 

 

https://www.clearinghouseforsport.gov.au/kb/sexuality-and-gender-perspectives-on-sports-ethics

 

https://glaad.org/reference/sports/

 

https://outonthefields.com/media/

 

 

Those were a few websites that have been craated and dedicated to the subject I'm speaking of, because it's a very real and very big issue.

 

 

The following were a wealth of resources that specifically aim to disprove your way of thinking. If it comes down to me trusting all these research papers, books, and websites dedicated to proving your nature over nurture is outdated and specifically wrong, on top of my loved experience as a decent athlete and a healthcare professional focusing mostly on working with athletes, forgive me for not taking the word of one dude who says he never witnessed anything during his time as a "professional".

 

[Swizzey]

3 minutes ago, StrayDog said:

You're the one that said gay men only excel in those "feminine" sports, and here you are now defending the work that goes into it. They are the same gay men that you said could never make it as NHL players because of their gayness. So why wouldn't hundreds of thousands of hours create an equally talented gay hockey player?

Here you go again working in absolutes and putting words in my mouth. Never have said either of those statements. 
 

Listen carefully because this about the 10th time I’ve said the same thing. There are very few gay men in the NHL. Over half of professional male dancers are gay. My conclusion to the data is that gays tend to gravitate to that profession.

 

And to your last statement. I absolutely do believe that hundreds of thousands of hours can produce a gay hockey player at the NHL level. Back to my statement I’ve been saying this whole time: I believe gays tend to gravitate toward more feminine sports and succeed there. 

[Swizzey]

8 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1016/j.smr.2020.09.003

 

I would give it to you here. If you were telling the truth (again I don't think you are but putting that to the side) "Sport managers remain resistant to addressing the harm caused to this community." Would actually sum up perfectly the entire premises of your argument. But this entire research based study would contradict your mission statement.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2386427/

 

Research paper that goes into depth about some of the things I'm speaking of.

 

https://vuir.vu.edu.au/32210/3/Impact%20Paper%20Final%20(Post%20Editors%20feedback)[1].pdf

 

Another interesting read if you have time, pretty long though but goes into plenty of depth about the subject.

 

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.671586/full

 

Pretty decent Aussie study, again disputes your statements.

 

https://elibrary.law.psu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1021&context=library_faculty

 

American study that reiterates the Aussie study. But was done a few years before hand.

 

A Study Of Homosexuality In Men's Professional Team Sports In North ... https://scholarship.shu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1508&context=student_scholarship

 

This paper was Written about Jason Collins who didn't come out till his mid 30s in professional sport in part that it simply wasn't safe to do so.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945417/

 

A study that specifically addresses (and helps disproves) your theory of nature/nurture 

 

 

The following were a brief overview of papers written that specifically dispute your nature over nurture theory. It's interesting because some of these even specifically touch on your point. Oh the joys of having a background in scientific research methods due to working in an evidence based healthcare.

 

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3081938?typeAccessWorkflow=login

 

Not a research paper, but a book that explains the same thing

 

 

https://www.clearinghouseforsport.gov.au/kb/sexuality-and-gender-perspectives-on-sports-ethics

 

https://glaad.org/reference/sports/

 

https://outonthefields.com/media/

 

 

Those were a few websites that have been craated and dedicated to the subject I'm speaking of, because it's a very real and very big issue.

 

 

The following were a wealth of resources that specifically aim to disprove your way of thinking. If it comes down to me trusting all these research papers, books, and websites dedicated to proving your nature over nurture is outdated and specifically wrong, on top of my loved experience as a decent athlete and a healthcare professional focusing mostly on working with athletes, forgive me for not taking the word of one dude who says he never witnessed anything during his time as a "professional".

 

That’s a lot of content and genuinely going to get into some of those articles at a later time (heading to work). That is literally what I was looking for from StrayDog and Agent that have been hurling insults without actually establishing a basis to their point. Thank you for those links MeanSeanBean. 

[JeremyCuddles]

2 hours ago, Surtur said:

funny thing is the entire pride thing is in support of only a small sect of our society odd how small groups have such a large impact isn't it. 

And what, they don't deserve to be respected and accepted cause they're a smaller community? And why do you think it is a small community? Almost like a lot of them don't come out publicly because of the hate and evil they face. Not helped by the fact these billion dollar companies are being bullied by small minded bigots into not supporting their cause.

 

Everyone deserves the right to exist and be themselves. Whether there's 4 billion of you or 400 of you. They aren't hurting nobody, I know what Fox news is telling you, but they're not coming after your kids either. Y'all really be terrified of the Pride Flag and it's funny to me and it's exactly why we shouldn't be banning it. People have been programmed to be afraid of gay people and trans people to the point the literal pride flag has y'all shaking and terrified.

[StrayDog]

39 minutes ago, Swizzey said:

Here you go again working in absolutes and putting words in my mouth. Never have said either of those statements. 

 

You mean like this quote from you? Nope, no absolutes here.

 

On 10/13/2023 at 10:43 PM, Swizzey said:

Perhaps it has less to do with gays not being allowed to play and more to do with gays not embodying the characteristics of what it takes to be  an NHL hockey player. 

According to you, gays do not embody the characteristics of what it takes to be an NHL player.

Your own homophobic and bigoted words.