[PGT] Vancouver Canucks 4 Edmonton Oilers 3 - Final, Oct 14th

[PhillipBlunt]

Just now, Goal_thecup said:

Self s/b spelled: Seff.

As in: Treat Yo Seff Mofo!

It's Outback. What did you expect?

[Goal_thecup]

1 hour ago, Shift-4 said:

And still a better hockey player than Darnell 

Darnell should go for 'the change' and play women's hockey; he's such a douchey bitch.

 

[LillStrimma]

4 hours ago, stawns said:

I'd say the jury is still out on Allvin.......sone good moves, some bad ones.  

 

I couldn't stand Gillis, but he made some key moves, no question.  However, the mess he left behind was as bad as it's ever been in the history of the organization 

Well, Benning made one good move, Miller. The rest was too expensive and crippled the team.

Allvin has brought in Kuz that made the top six instantly.

Hronek as a topRHD.

the jury isn’t still out. They have already made a decision within two years as a GM for Allvin.

It’s insane to even try compare them.

Even if Allvin goes deep shit from now he has done a better job with pro scouting and put out a real team that is almost big enough, almost covered the D already… To be a contender after two years.

What Allvin has done should Benning had done long ago but wasn’t able.

 

The amateur bit is too much on the scouts that follows the young players around and the GM hasn’t got the time to look at all of those.

[Goal_thecup]

1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said:

It's Outback. What did you expect?

What's Outback?

The only thing I recall that was out back was the dreaded Wood Shed.

 

Was looking for a funny woodshed gif but got this first, lol:

[PhillipBlunt]

2 minutes ago, Goal_thecup said:

What's Outback?

The only thing I recall that was out back was the dreaded Wood Shed.

 

Was looking for a funny woodshed gif but got this first, lol:

The restaurant. It’s actually pretty good. 

[Goal_thecup]

4 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

The restaurant. It’s actually pretty good. 

There's a restaurant out back?

There goes the (tattered and frayed) diet plan again!

[PhillipBlunt]

Just now, Goal_thecup said:

There's a restaurant out back?

There goes the (tattered and frayed) diet plan again!

Outback Steakhouse

[stawns]

42 minutes ago, LillStrimma said:

Well, Benning made one good move, Miller. The rest was too expensive and crippled the team.

Allvin has brought in Kuz that made the top six instantly.

Hronek as a topRHD.

the jury isn’t still out. They have already made a decision within two years as a GM for Allvin.

It’s insane to even try compare them.

Even if Allvin goes deep shit from now he has done a better job with pro scouting and put out a real team that is almost big enough, almost covered the D already… To be a contender after two years.

What Allvin has done should Benning had done long ago but wasn’t able.

 

The amateur bit is too much on the scouts that follows the young players around and the GM hasn’t got the time to look at all of those.

Like Gillis, Allvin was starting with a solid young core of superstars, so much of the heavy lifting was already done for him.

 

I've liked some of his moves, definitely disliked others.  So, for me, the jury is still out.

[LillStrimma]

22 minutes ago, stawns said:

Like Gillis, Allvin was starting with a solid young core of superstars, so much of the heavy lifting was already done for him.

 

I've liked some of his moves, definitely disliked others.  So, for me, the jury is still out.

Well, wich do you dislike? 
I said that Miller is Bennings best deal.

Then you can talk about Loui, Pearson, Sutter, Ferland, Myers, OEL and so on. Too much money spent on each and every one of them wich is why the team was so crippled under Benning.

He could have been successful if he had Allvins approach.

 

The best young players fell into his lap because the team were so bad.

 

[stawns]

Just now, LillStrimma said:

Well, wich do you dislike? 
I said that Miller is Bennings best deal.

Then you can talk about Loui, Pearson, Sutter, Ferland, Myers, OEL and so on. Too much money spent on each and every one of them wich is why the team was so crippled under Benning.

He could have been successful if he had Allvins approach.

 

The best young players fell into his lap because the team were so bad.

 

Millers deal

Boesers deal

Not trading either of them

Hated AB coming back in the horvat deal

Completely unprofessional handling of the coaching situation

Dealing Horvat at all

 

 

Again, I quite like PA and think he's on the right track, more or less.  

[Joe King]

4 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

I’m getting a faint whiff of you thinking that maybe officials earn a minus for that. I can see that McDavid gets fouled a lot, but there are plenty of penalties called for legit crap against him. But I think him whining every time somebody comes near him is more than a little too much. I’m sure he does it because every now and then he gets a call that wasn’t a foul. What a crap way to behave.

 

I was partially kidding with Gifted power plays. I have no problem admitting that I am biased. A tried and true Canucks fan. Not any other team ever.

I do realize it's a fast paced game and mistakes will be made by both players and officials.

[Crabcakes]

5 hours ago, Goal_thecup said:

Moj is an ass-hat; full of himself (and shrimp apparently).

Listening to Moj on the radio is more boring than watching paint dry.

 

I've said this before but I still like it: Moj on the radio is like listening to paint dry.

i.e. Super Boring.

 

I can't stand that fat-headed, opinionated, bag of chewed shrimp.

And I do know "The Moj".

 

He's not the only opinionated one....

[Canuckle]

15 hours ago, LillStrimma said:

You don’t wonder why Brackett wanted full control of the draft? 
If this is something rare in NHL it must have been happening a lot of dumb decisions by Benning to get Brackett to make his decision. To rather get fired than to be under Benning with the same dumb decisions.

it’s pretty easy logic wise especially now since Allvin showed how a GM should be.

Allvi and Benning is very far apart as leaders.

 

Does Brackett have full carte blanche in Minnesota? Extremely doubtful. Brackett didn't get fired, fyi. He just didn't get a new contract because he overplayed his hand asking for more than the club was willing to give.  If you want GM type power, go be a GM. Bye, Felicia.

 

Frankly, I don't care why he wanted GM levels of power. Damn near everything spoken about the matter is pure conjecture anyway. "Those are Jim picks. Those are Brackett picks." Mostly unfounded BS.

 

Secondly, the charge "how a gm should be" is an extremely loaded statement.

 

In what way exactly?

 

I like Allvin just fine, just like I liked Benning and Gillis just fine. But bottomline is every GM is dealt a different set of difficult circumstance, some much more than others.

 

For example, given ownerships mandate to "stay competitive" when they should have been consciously tanking (easy for us to say), I seriously doubt it would have been any different for Gillis or Allvin or any other GM if they were in the hot seat during the rebuild years. Sure, maybe their particular handpicked staff would've targeted different players on those same types of contracts, and trading picks away, etc. etc. but that overarching decision to keep playing  "competitive hockey" rather than "tank" was never the GMs decision to make. And as we know even the President was powerless to change that. Damn near everything that followed was a product of that fundamental decision.

 

So again I ask, in what way exactly? The club is at compleley different places in terms of organizational structue and especially in terms of team development. So that charge could actually be a fair bit like  comparing apples to oranges given the context.

[Canuckle]

17 hours ago, LillStrimma said:

I hope you don’t think about the ”blame Gillis for ten years because he screwed the team”-spin?

 

PA has shown what can be done within two years and Benning isn’t worthy driving Allvins car.

 

Gillis had a part in it. Absoutely. Gillis left them with a team of players nobody wanted. Overpaid, no trade clauses. Zero blue chips in the system.

 

He sold the farm to make the ppush! And I don't blame them! It was a worth a shot.  Still doesn't mean he left them in good shape though. Again, no blame, but it's still true.

 

And it's pretty hard to kick start a rebuild if none of your assets command top dollar. And the one that really could, Kesler, tied their hands and said "one team."

 

As for the claim about Allvin, the club at that time to where they are the past 2 is like comparing apples to oranges.   Benning and co. already did all the heavy lifting to find the core. And if Allvin was GM during the dark times he would have been faced with the same constraints as Benning and likely vilified the same way.

 

Not to mention the mandate to "stay competitive" the entire time from ownership.  It didn't really matter who the damn GM was at that time. They weren't really driving the bus anyway.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Canuckle

[Ray_Cathode]

3 hours ago, Joe King said:

I was partially kidding with Gifted power plays. I have no problem admitting that I am biased. A tried and true Canucks fan. Not any other team ever.

I do realize it's a fast paced game and mistakes will be made by both players and officials.

I still don’t like players whining for calls. But, being entirely hypocritical where team Canada is concerned, when Canada plays, I want McDavid.

[RinkonRenfrew]

11 hours ago, LillStrimma said:

Well, Benning made one good move, Miller. The rest was too expensive and crippled the team.

Allvin has brought in Kuz that made the top six instantly.

Hronek as a topRHD.

the jury isn’t still out. They have already made a decision within two years as a GM for Allvin.

It’s insane to even try compare them.

Even if Allvin goes deep shit from now he has done a better job with pro scouting and put out a real team that is almost big enough, almost covered the D already… To be a contender after two years.

What Allvin has done should Benning had done long ago but wasn’t able.

 

The amateur bit is too much on the scouts that follows the young players around and the GM hasn’t got the time to look at all of those.

ha. love the homerism, but let’s win the cup first before we give PA a statue.

 

 For the first time in 15 years we have star quality players entering their prime that give us hope.  PA didn’t draft them, and Benning got lucky (right?). 

 

i’m super pumped for this team, but i’m not giving past or present management accolades for their moves. If we’re a winning team, it’s because petey, hughes, miller and demko exceeded their best. not because we got lafferty ( who i like, and am happy we got).

 

 

[spook007]

9 hours ago, Canuckle said:

 

Gillis had a part in it. Absoutely. Gillis left them with a team of players nobody wanted. Overpaid, no trade clauses. Zero blue chips in the system.

 

He sold the farm to make the ppush! And I don't blame them! It was a worth a shot.  Still doesn't mean he left them in good shape though. Again, no blame, but it's still true.

 

And it's pretty hard to kick start a rebuild if none of your assets command top dollar. And the one that really could, Kesler, tied their hands and said "one team."

 

As for the claim about Allvin, the club at that time to where they are the past 2 is like comparing apples to oranges.   Benning and co. already did all the heavy lifting to find the core. And if Allvin was GM during the dark times he would have been faced with the same constraints as Benning and likely vilified the same way.

 

Not to mention the mandate to "stay competitive" the entire time from ownership.  It didn't really matter who the damn GM was at that time. They weren't really driving the bus anyway.

 

 

 

Yes, problem as such was not selling the farm for a proper push (it almost worked)... The real problem was when the music stopped, they didn't strip it down but kept flogging the tired horses instead.... MG wanted a tear down and got canned, Torts said we needed a tear down and got canned... The real problem was the lack of vision. 

 

Benning drafted well enough with his hits (and yes misses), but we would likely have been further ahead, if we had been stripping it down.... morale victories to end every season didn't help much, and neither did the lottery (god I hate Oilers for being so shit, they had to introduce a lottery)...

 

Allvin has done well though since entering the scene... I find it hard to see anything, he could have done better, than he already did...

Needed to get a RHD,

needed to find a solution to the OEL anchor,  

needed to keep player costs under control (Bye Bo),

get a better back up keeper at reasonable cost,

needed to find useful supplementary players at low cost for the two bottom lines...

 

For now I definitely like, what I am seeing from the management team... solve the Garland/Beau issue of overpaid players and improve RHD even more, and its an A from me (provided we become a play offs team  )

[LillStrimma]

3 hours ago, RinkonRenfrew said:

ha. love the homerism, but let’s win the cup first before we give PA a statue.

 

 For the first time in 15 years we have star quality players entering their prime that give us hope.  PA didn’t draft them, and Benning got lucky (right?). 

 

i’m super pumped for this team, but i’m not giving past or present management accolades for their moves. If we’re a winning team, it’s because petey, hughes, miller and demko exceeded their best. not because we got lafferty ( who i like, and am happy we got).

 

 

If we win the cup it’s because the core and the support players is at their best with a lot of backup players in case of injuries.

 

If Benning had been good at that, we had reached almost this level three years ago. 
 

We should have had played playoff hockey all the seasons after the last one.

So we missed a lot due to Bennings failure to get cheap support players.

 

 

[Canuckle]

10 hours ago, spook007 said:

 

Yes, problem as such was not selling the farm for a proper push (it almost worked)... The real problem was when the music stopped, they didn't strip it down but kept flogging the tired horses instead.... MG wanted a tear down and got canned, Torts said we needed a tear down and got canned... The real problem was the lack of vision. 

 

Benning drafted well enough with his hits (and yes misses), but we would likely have been further ahead, if we had been stripping it down.... morale victories to end every season didn't help much, and neither did the lottery (god I hate Oilers for being so shit, they had to introduce a lottery)...

 

Allvin has done well though since entering the scene... I find it hard to see anything, he could have done better, than he already did...

Needed to get a RHD,

needed to find a solution to the OEL anchor,  

needed to keep player costs under control (Bye Bo),

get a better back up keeper at reasonable cost,

needed to find useful supplementary players at low cost for the two bottom lines...

 

For now I definitely like, what I am seeing from the management team... solve the Garland/Beau issue of overpaid players and improve RHD even more, and its an A from me (provided we become a play offs team  )

Problem is Benning's "vision" was mandated by those above him. The organization wanted to "stay competitive" so we'll never know what they would have personally preferred to do, or deals they would or wouldn't rather have made with a different goal in mind. Ownership made the call and damn near everything which followed was a product of that underlying plan.

 

To me it will always be twofold:

 

This is what it looks like when you take your shot and miss, and this is what it looks like when your ownership group refuses to rebuild in a 'typical' way to keep the money rolling in.

 

Here's former Canucks AGM Chris Gear talking about it if it interests you: (I skipped to the relevant section)

 

 

Cheers

[spook007]

43 minutes ago, Canuckle said:

Problem is Benning's "vision" was mandated by those above him. The organization wanted to "stay competitive" so we'll never know what they would have personally preferred to do, or deals they would or wouldn't rather have made with a different goal in mind. Ownership made the call and damn near everything which followed was a product of that underlying plan.

 

To me it will always be twofold:

 

This is what it looks like when you take your shot and miss, and this is what it looks like when your ownership group refuses to rebuild in a 'typical' way to keep the money rolling in.

 

Here's former Canucks AGM Chris Gear talking about it if it interests you: (I skipped to the relevant section)

 

 

Cheers

 

Thanks @Canuckle That was a good listen... Kinda what I expected.

The rebuild should have started in 2013-2014, but the owners didn't want to accept it, and here we are... As Chris Gear says, both Toronto and Edmonton haven't won anything yet despite winning the drafts, however, I think it has more to do with the supporting cast than the players they drafted.

If you have forwards scoring 50-60 goals, they are generally not the problem... I think, Both teams would do fantastic, if they sold off some of their scoring for defensive reinforcements, but that's another story.

 

 

 

[LillStrimma]

1 hour ago, Canuckle said:

Problem is Benning's "vision" was mandated by those above him. The organization wanted to "stay competitive" so we'll never know what they would have personally preferred to do, or deals they would or wouldn't rather have made with a different goal in mind. Ownership made the call and damn near everything which followed was a product of that underlying plan.

 

To me it will always be twofold:

 

This is what it looks like when you take your shot and miss, and this is what it looks like when your ownership group refuses to rebuild in a 'typical' way to keep the money rolling in.

 

Here's former Canucks AGM Chris Gear talking about it if it interests you: (I skipped to the relevant section)

 

 

Cheers

Blaming  Aquilini for a weak GM in Benning doesn’t work.

If Benning was any good he would have pushed back and said he was in control.

 

There is no other alternative…

 

[IceHockeyPlayer]

I think sometimes Myers is actually playing for the other team. Just took out Petersson!

[Canuckle]

3 hours ago, LillStrimma said:

Blaming  Aquilini for a weak GM in Benning doesn’t work.

If Benning was any good he would have pushed back and said he was in control.

 

There is no other alternative…

 

 

It's not about "weak gm." Put ANY GM in the same seat with the same demands on the table it would've been the same thing. Nothing to do with "being any good" but a matter of doing what your boss tells you too.

 

In this case its "We are going to stay competitive for the duration. Build a team that can win games and continue drawing fans."

 

Buddy, did you even watch the video?

 

Gear mentions this.

 

If the GM pushes back on ownership he gets fired and they bring in the next guy to do the owners bidding. And we already know that would be the case. Look at Linden.

 

And speaking of Linden, ownership didn't hire Benning. Linden did.

 

Indeed, there is no alternative. "Do what we say or we'll find someone who will." Works the same way at your job too, I'm sure.

[Canuckle]

4 hours ago, spook007 said:

 

Thanks @Canuckle That was a good listen... Kinda what I expected.

The rebuild should have started in 2013-2014, but the owners didn't want to accept it, and here we are... As Chris Gear says, both Toronto and Edmonton haven't won anything yet despite winning the drafts, however, I think it has more to do with the supporting cast than the players they drafted.

If you have forwards scoring 50-60 goals, they are generally not the problem... I think, Both teams would do fantastic, if they sold off some of their scoring for defensive reinforcements, but that's another story.

 

Yeah. They were really banking on guys like Virtanen and Juolevi to pan out, too. I reckon they'd be in much better shape right out, maybe even able to compete a bit earlier if they had. Throw in the pandemic and flat cap for a team already capped out  from trying to "be competitive" for the duration... and here we fucking are. It's like shit stacked on top of shit.  Some self inflicted by ownership, some inflicted by unforeseeable circumstances... and made exponentially worse by the former.

 

Jim Benning may just go down as the biggest scapegoat in all franchise history, imo.  Like... what can you even do at, you know? Do you want a GM job or not. Do it or I'll find someone who will. Blegh.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Canuckle

[spook007]

7 hours ago, Canuckle said:

 

Yeah. They were really banking on guys like Virtanen and Juolevi to pan out, too. I reckon they'd be in much better shape right out, maybe even able to compete a bit earlier if they had. Throw in the pandemic and flat cap for a team already capped out  from trying to "be competitive" for the duration... and here we fucking are. It's like shit stacked on top of shit.  Some self inflicted by ownership, some inflicted by unforeseeable circumstances... and made exponentially worse by the former.

 

Jim Benning may just go down as the biggest scapegoat in all franchise history, imo.  Like... what can you even do at, you know? Do you want a GM job or not. Do it or I'll find someone who will. Blegh.

 

Benning did make some odd decisions, bit agree on two fronts, he was already doomed. The owners didn't want a rebuild, and Covid creating flat lined cap. 
 

As you rightly say 'Do you want to be a HM or not...'

 

Reallity is that very few GMs and coaches gets to see the whole process through, although Aquilinis did give Benning a lot of rope...

 

If it had worked out with JV on OJ we would likely had been further ahead in our process, but its a game of what ifs... nobody knows what would have happened. 
 

Now we are clearly running with Quinn, Miller, Demko and Petey (if he extends). 
 

This is the core now. Its then up to management to find all the conplimentary pieces through drafts or screwed dealing..

And so far so good for PA, despite the team laying an egg yesterday. 
Still think there's a couple of missing pieces, but things take time... happy with progress so far.