[Article] Canucks: J.T. Miller wanted the Connor McDavid test. He got it.

[IBatch]

6 minutes ago, Dankmemes187 said:

looking back, perhaps so much is a over statement... he was better. 

 

if i was to pretend a situation and EP didnt exist and we put prime kesler in his spot and all 3 Miller, Kesler and Horvat were our centers and up for contract...

 

horvat is the easy choice out, miller would be our scoring center taking EP's role and kesler would be our shutdown center and Number 1 Pk unit...

 

he likely would play more minutes than Miller... and would heavily rely on miller to feed him the puck on the PP... idk call me old school I think that his type of style is more inducive of winning games especially playoff games.

back that up with any prrof, because i will spend 5 minutes giving you page after page of proof

Proof of what?   That Kesler was underpaid?     Never said he wasn't ... but I do remember folks complaining about him too.   Some felt Burrows was the better player.  Not sure why you'd be so concerned about it.   Kesler AND Miller are guys any team would love to have.    Stupid.   As for expansion, absolutely you can see how that effected the league.   This isn't better hockey.  

Edited October 16, 2023 by IBatch
f

[PeteyBOI]

Zone Entries and Exits: Teams can use advanced stats to optimize zone entries and exits, which influence scoring chances. Tracking player movement and puck control in these areas can help teams gain better control of the game, leading to more offensive opportunities.

Enhanced Scouting: Advanced stats also play a role in scouting opponents. Teams use analytics to study their rivals' strengths and weaknesses, helping them identify areas where they can exploit vulnerabilities and increase scoring opportunities.

Shot Selection: Advanced stats help players and teams understand the importance of shot quality. Not all shots are equal, and advanced metrics like xG can quantify the expected value of a shot. This knowledge can influence players to take higher-quality shots, which have a higher likelihood of leading to goals.

Power Play and Penalty Kill Optimization: Advanced stats can provide insights into special teams' effectiveness, including the power play and penalty kill. Teams can identify which tactics work best and which players are most productive in these situations, ultimately leading to more goals scored on power plays and fewer goals allowed on penalty kills.

Strategic Insights: Coaches and teams use advanced stats to understand on-ice dynamics better. For example, they can analyze which line combinations or defensive pairings are most effective in creating scoring chances and preventing opponents from doing the same. This knowledge helps in forming game strategies that maximize scoring potential.

Player Evaluation: Advanced stats help teams assess player performance more comprehensively. Metrics like Corsi and Expected Goals (xG) allow teams to identify players who generate more scoring opportunities or possess better defensive skills. This leads to better player selection and roster optimization, which can improve overall team performance and scoring.

 

Player Speed Measurement: Advanced metrics like player tracking data and player speed measurements have become more prevalent in the NHL. Teams now have access to data that quantifies a player's speed, acceleration, and movement on the ice. This information can help coaches and analysts identify players who excel in terms of speed and agility.

Evaluation and Optimization: With access to speed data, teams can evaluate the effectiveness of fast breakouts and offensive rushes. They can assess which players are particularly adept at creating these situations and how they impact the game. This data can be used to optimize strategies and tactics that leverage speed and transition play.

Enhanced Strategy: The data derived from advanced metrics allows teams to develop more sophisticated strategies that take advantage of player speed. For example, teams can design breakout and transition plays that capitalize on the fastest skaters on the team. They can also assess the success rate of these strategies by using metrics like expected goals (xG) to determine if the high-speed plays result in more scoring chances.

 

this is just on power play's...

1. Efficiency and Effectiveness: Advanced metrics can be used to assess the efficiency and effectiveness of a team's power play. Metrics like power-play goals, shot attempts, shooting percentage, and expected goals (xG) on the power play can provide insights into how well the power play is performing. Teams can compare these metrics to previous seasons, opponents, or league averages to identify areas for improvement.

2. Zone Entries: Advanced metrics can track zone entries during the power play. Teams can analyze how successful their entries are and whether they lead to scoring opportunities. Effective zone entries can lead to more time in the offensive zone and increased scoring chances.

3. Shot Selection: Advanced metrics can help analyze the types of shots taken on the power play. Teams can assess the quality of shots (high-danger vs. low-danger) and whether they align with the team's overall offensive strategy. Understanding the expected value of shots (xG) on the power play can help in optimizing shot selection.

4. Passing and Puck Movement: Metrics related to passing and puck movement can provide valuable insights into power play effectiveness. Teams can track the number of passes, pass completion percentages, and the speed of puck movement. Effective passing can create openings and scoring opportunities.

5. Player-Specific Metrics: Teams can use advanced metrics to evaluate individual player performance on the power play. They can assess which players excel in various power play roles, such as the quarterback position, net-front presence, or shooters. These insights can help coaches make personnel decisions and tailor strategies to player strengths.

6. Opponent Analysis: Advanced stats can also be used to analyze opponents' penalty-killing strategies and weaknesses. Teams can identify patterns or tendencies in how opposing penalty killers defend against power plays and adjust their strategies accordingly.

7. Time-on-Ice Management: Teams can use metrics to monitor player time-on-ice during power plays. Managing player shifts effectively and optimizing ice time for key players can contribute to power-play success.

By using advanced metrics to analyze these aspects of power play strategy, teams can make data-informed decisions about changes or adjustments needed to enhance their power play performance. It allows for a more nuanced and tailored approach to power plays, increasing the chances of converting with the man advantage and ultimately contributing to higher scoring in the NHL.

 

 

 

 

 

[PeteyBOI]

14 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Proof of what?   That Kesler was underpaid?     Never said he wasn't ... but I do remember folks complaining about him too.   Some felt Burrows was the better player.  Not sure why you'd be so concerned about it.   Kesler AND Miller are guys any team would love to have.    Stupid.   As for expansion, absolutely you can see how that effected the league.   This isn't better hockey.  

hey just because you dont like advanced metrics, and cant handle change doesnt mean you are right.... and you dont get to call me stoopid...

[PeteyBOI]

16 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Proof of what?   That Kesler was underpaid?     Never said he wasn't ... but I do remember folks complaining about him too.   Some felt Burrows was the better player.  Not sure why you'd be so concerned about it.   Kesler AND Miller are guys any team would love to have.    Stupid.   As for expansion, absolutely you can see how that effected the league.   This isn't better hockey.  

proof of advanced metrics and stats are BS...

 

im not concerned about it, people wanted me to quantify why i think Kesler was better, I did... wasnt concerned at all... Im more concerned with how insulting you are...

[Attila Umbrus]

1 hour ago, Dankmemes187 said:

kesler was so much better than miller

I do remember how good Kesler was. But I think there is some give and take to the comparison made. Their attitude is similar. Both edgy, salty guys. I stand by that.
 

I didn’t say they were the same exact type of player. Obviously Kesler was an amazing defensive player with some offensive chops. But he also bloomed late offensively like JT.

 

JT is much more of a power forward, but he does keep his head above water defensively. Not to the calibre of Kes but still no slouch.
 

Offensively JT outshines Kesler because he knows how to use his team mates better…the one thing that always bugged me about Kesler is that we always had a hard time finding a steady linemate for him. Raymond, Samuelsson, Sundin, Burrows, etc. He was a pure north/south player, he had trouble sharing the ice and was better at doing it all himself…which is good and bad at the same time…he single handedly won us the Nashville series. I’ll never forget that.

 

JT I hope can do more than Kes and help bring this team a stanley cup one day. We have some amazing building blocks right now. Really feel something special is starting to happen.

 

At the end of the day both great players, but I do feel like you are under valuing what JT does for this team. Kesler wasn’t “much” better than him. They are closer than you think.

[PeteyBOI]

1 minute ago, Attila Umbrus said:

I do remember how good Kesler was. But I think there is some give and take to the comparison made. Their attitude is similar. Both edgy, salty guys. I stand by that.
 

I didn’t say they were the same exact type of player. Obviously Kesler was an amazing defensive player with some offensive chops. But he also bloomed late offensively like JT.

 

JT is much more of a power forward, but he does keep his head above water defensively. Not to the calibre of Kes but still no slouch.
 

Offensively JT outshines Kesler because he knows how to use his team mates better…the one thing that always bugged me about Kesler is that we always had a hard time finding a steady linemate for him. Raymond, Samuelsson, Sundin, Burrows, etc. He was a pure north/south player, he had trouble sharing the ice and was better at doing it all himself…which is good and bad at the same time…he single handedly won us the Nashville series. I’ll never forget that.

 

JT I hope can do more than Kes and help bring this team a stanley cup one day. We have some amazing building blocks right now. Really feel something special is starting to happen.

 

At the end of the day both great players, but I do feel like you are under valuing what JT does for this team. Kesler wasn’t “much” better than him. They are closer than you think.

thanks... it wasnt your post alone, that caused me to say the words i said. it was the combination of everything including the article. i also retracted my much better already so we can agree on that...

 

And my post wasnt a knock on miller at all... not even the slightest... I love miller i always have been advocating for him... some might remember me defending him during 3 seasons past during his down year and even last year too... People wanted him gone traded, and said we would have to pay to get rid of him... I actually am the type of fan that doesnt do much ragging on our players... people just believe what they want to i guess...

[Attila Umbrus]

8 minutes ago, Dankmemes187 said:

proof of advanced metrics and stats are BS...

 

im not concerned about it, people wanted me to quantify why i think Kesler was better, I did... wasnt concerned at all... Im more concerned with how insulting you are...

For every advanced stat there is the eye test too. Both are valuable. You act like stats are the only thing that holds water when evaluating a player’s effectiveness. It’s a bit silly to just use one thing to measure a person.

 

Stats are great, don’t get me wrong. But there is way more to this game than just the stats. I have yet to see an analytics heavy team win the cup…cough cough Kyle Dubas.

 

Every team uses advanced stats, they blend it into their overall program and it definitely carries weight. But the old fashioned way of watching players is still very useful. Why else would NHL teams still employ an army of scouts to scour the planet to watch players all over the place?

[Attila Umbrus]

1 minute ago, Dankmemes187 said:

thanks... it wasnt your post alone, that caused me to say the words i said. it was the combination of everything including the article. i also retracted my much better already so we can agree on that...

 

And my post wasnt a knock on miller at all... not even the slightest... I love miller i always have been advocating for him... some might remember me defending him during 3 seasons past during his down year and even last year too... People wanted him gone traded, and said we would have to pay to get rid of him... I actually am the type of fan that doesnt do much ragging on our players... people just believe what they want to i guess...

Nothing to apologize for. You bring up good points. It’s great to share minds with everyone online. All good my dude.

[NucksIn50]

Let’s be frank. In today’s NHL JTs contract is a steal, he has been a point per game player since he got here and I don’t see that production dropping off anytime soon. Haters and complainers are always going to point to his cap hit which is ridiculous lol …all I’d have to say is look at the value Nurse is giving Edmontn now that guy is literally going home every night thinking &&@$ look how fat my bank account is?!!

 

Glad Miller is helping lead this team, he is a crucial member of this team, he also might have to help Huggy hoist that big cup over his head when Bettman hands it over to him like only a big brother can do.

 

Love this team we are getting closer, not because of the 2 results to start the season but because the people/personnel that are aligning with this organization. Having Trevor in the building opening night was a big thing in my opinion and really looking forward to finally see OUR team finally breakout from that bubble year. 
 

Let’s Go!

[PeteyBOI]

1 minute ago, Attila Umbrus said:

For every advanced stat there is the eye test too. Both are valuable. You act like stats are the only thing that holds water when evaluating a player’s effectiveness. It’s a bit silly to just use one thing to measure a person.

 

Stats are great, don’t get me wrong. But there is way more to this game than just the stats. I have yet to see an analytics heavy team win the cup…cough cough Kyle Dubas.

 

Every team uses advanced stats, they blend it into their overall program and it definitely carries weight. But the old fashioned way of watching players is still very useful. Why else would NHL teams still employ an army of scouts to scour the planet to watch players all over the place?

of course, i agree.but advancements in the eye test hasn't really had a huge upswing in the past 10 years....

 

Trust me all team use advanced metrics...even the nucks. its a multi million dollar Business. teams are investing In AI to best analyze and use all the data to its most potential, they are not shying away from it at all, they are investing more money into it. the margins are slim, but they are REAL... Shift time is a big one.. players used to play longer shifts now they are much, much shorter. an eye test didn't figure that out, some nerd did... and the dozen or so other points i already made...

 

people's memory is terrible, no honestly, its terrible, im really serious... its terrible. this is why the eye test fails some times you might recognize something by eye but if you dont quantify it somehow, a few months/weeks/days/minutes later it could be gone...

there is no way, in any way does using advanced metrics effect a team poorly in the long run. you  may try a new strategy and it might not work, but you can drop it...

 

I think we all can agree that High Danger shots are much more likely to score than any random shot, just recognizing this allows a coach to strategize how to use this info... explain how knowing that goals have a certain percentage of chance to go in from high danger areas makes a team worse?

 

explain how tracking any stat makes a team worse? i cant think of a reason.... if your coach cant figure out a way to utilize the data thats on them... but they do, they do use the data and its the leading reason why hockey has gone up 10% in scoring... if it was only players improving the goalies would not be affected, because they also would be improving...

 

if you want some proof of it being real, i suggest you search for articles that prove its fake... all you will get is articles that prove how it works

 

 

 

 

[Devron]

Feels like the drama has died down a lot. Who’s getting traded. This and that! Happy with Miller and his contract! Im glad all that is over. Media is still trying really hard though. Making stuff up about Pettersson now to keep the pot going, but I know it’s all bs and the noise isn’t as loud anymore 

[Attila Umbrus]

4 minutes ago, Dankmemes187 said:

of course, i agree.but advancements in the eye test hasn't really had a huge upswing in the past 10 years....

 

Trust me all team use advanced metrics...even the nucks. its a multi million dollar Business. teams are investing In AI to best analyze and use all the data to its most potential, they are not shying away from it at all, they are investing more money into it. the margins are slim, but they are REAL... Shift time is a big one.. players used to play longer shifts now they are much, much shorter. an eye test didn't figure that out, some nerd did... and the dozen or so other points i already made...

 

people's memory is terrible, no honestly, its terrible, im really serious... its terrible. this is why the eye test fails some times you might recognize something by eye but if you dont quantify it somehow, a few months/weeks/days/minutes later it could be gone...

there is no way, in any way does using advanced metrics effect a team poorly in the long run. you  may try a new strategy and it might not work, but you can drop it...

 

I think we all can agree that High Danger shots are much more likely to score than any random shot, just recognizing this allows a coach to strategize how to use this info... explain how knowing that goals have a certain percentage of chance to go in from high danger areas makes a team worse?

 

explain how tracking any stat makes a team worse? i cant think of a reason.... if your coach cant figure out a way to utilize the data thats on them... but they do, they do use the data and its the leading reason why hockey has gone up 10% in scoring... if it was only players improving the goalies would not be affected, because they also would be improving...

 

if you want some proof of it being real, i suggest you search for articles that prove its fake... all you will get is articles that prove how it works

 

 

 

 

Great points!

 

I think you may mis understand me tho. I actually believe in the marriage of the two methods. Tracking and maintaining stats has taken things to another level. I’m just saying both are still required to give an overall picture. 
 

You can’t just use one or the other. Purely just drafting on stats alone doesn’t work. You have to watch to quantify that your stats actually add up. 
 

They are separate skills but yet nowadays are pretty useless without eachother. When both are combined they create a level of player evaluation we have never seen before. It’s interesting stuff. And yes, all NHL teams have definitely taken notice.

 

I’ll be honest, and I think you can tell…i’m an eye test guy first. But I definitely learn a lot from reading the analytical side of things too…but numbers get all fuzzy in my head at a certain point so I have my limits there lol. But I do try my best to understand and follow.

[The Duke]

1 hour ago, Attila Umbrus said:

Great points!

 

I think you may mis understand me tho. I actually believe in the marriage of the two methods. Tracking and maintaining stats has taken things to another level. I’m just saying both are still required to give an overall picture. 
 

You can’t just use one or the other. Purely just drafting on stats alone doesn’t work. You have to watch to quantify that your stats actually add up. 
 

They are separate skills but yet nowadays are pretty useless without eachother. When both are combined they create a level of player evaluation we have never seen before. It’s interesting stuff. And yes, all NHL teams have definitely taken notice.

 

I’ll be honest, and I think you can tell…i’m an eye test guy first. But I definitely learn a lot from reading the analytical side of things too…but numbers get all fuzzy in my head at a certain point so I have my limits there lol. But I do try my best to understand and follow.

Advanced stats are just a way people have catalogued and organized the eye test. 
 

Id wager they have a lot more utility on tracking the *league* or *multiple leagues* when it comes to prospects than telling a coach what he probably already knows.
 

A coaching staff even at the amateur level is going to have a pretty rock solid handle on not only the frequency / location of high danger chances for/against but also the reasons why they are happening.  The stats are nice to see, but most of the time not adding too much to the discussion beyond maybe some shared language and putting some solid numbers to something.

 

Just my experience, anyways.  Maybe some people really live and die by the stats.. but to me, you really need to determine the *why* as a coach and you need to watch the tape to figure that out.

[PeteyBOI]

3 hours ago, Attila Umbrus said:

Great points!

 

I think you may mis understand me tho. I actually believe in the marriage of the two methods. Tracking and maintaining stats has taken things to another level. I’m just saying both are still required to give an overall picture. 
 

You can’t just use one or the other. Purely just drafting on stats alone doesn’t work. You have to watch to quantify that your stats actually add up. 
 

They are separate skills but yet nowadays are pretty useless without eachother. When both are combined they create a level of player evaluation we have never seen before. It’s interesting stuff. And yes, all NHL teams have definitely taken notice.

 

I’ll be honest, and I think you can tell…i’m an eye test guy first. But I definitely learn a lot from reading the analytical side of things too…but numbers get all fuzzy in my head at a certain point so I have my limits there lol. But I do try my best to understand and follow.

nope i believe you... if i didnt think you believed i would say something else... i would not spend any time trying to prove myself right... i would rather just ask for proof that analytics is fake news...

[PeteyBOI]

1 hour ago, The Duke said:

Advanced stats are just a way people have catalogued and organized the eye test. 
 

Id wager they have a lot more utility on tracking the *league* or *multiple leagues* when it comes to prospects than telling a coach what he probably already knows.
 

A coaching staff even at the amateur level is going to have a pretty rock solid handle on not only the frequency / location of high danger chances for/against but also the reasons why they are happening.  The stats are nice to see, but most of the time not adding too much to the discussion beyond maybe some shared language and putting some solid numbers to something.

 

Just my experience, anyways.  Maybe some people really live and die by the stats.. but to me, you really need to determine the *why* as a coach and you need to watch the tape to figure that out.

yes but young punks think they know best... having measurable proof is always good when some young bull tries to reinvent the wheel... writing down your findings is the only way to immortalize your coaching styles and methods... of course stats did not invent high danger shots, it just quantified them

Edited October 16, 2023 by Dankmemes187

[-dlc-]

11 hours ago, Dankmemes187 said:

proof of advanced metrics and stats are BS...

 

im not concerned about it, people wanted me to quantify why i think Kesler was better, I did... wasnt concerned at all... Im more concerned with how insulting you are...

Measurable proof in relation to stats tells some of the story. But, as pointed out, Kes and Burr were a duo. And, as you likely know (or maybe don't) often used a lot of goading and other things to pull players off their game. "Tell Kelly I said hi". I loved it .... was comical. Miller's all business out there. 

 

Kes was a great player no doubt. I just think you've also given reasons why you can't compare the two with a clear winner in the here and now. Game's different.  Different team dynamics. And again, if you're using stuff on paper what about the one where Miller had a 99 point season and Kes didn't. You ignore that stat.

 

"Kesler was SO MUCH better than Miller". So much? That's a personal opinion.

 

You also have a larger sample size with Kes...10 years of it. Miller's got half that to work from.

 

Tell me in your words, without ripping stuff off a stats sheet or copy pasting a wall of text. Because if it was as easy as following a formula then every team would find success, but that's not the case.

 

Miller's more of a team player and wanted to be here despite the lack of success. Kes wanted out and to go to a new team that gave him a better chance of that in his view. All about me stuff.

 

So...two things you overlook. Miller's 99 point season counts as something...yet you want to glance over that. Kes didn't have one of those, despite playing on a pretty stacked team. 

 

And again....Miller's got half the body of work to compare against than Kes does. Sky's the limit.

 

 

[IBatch]

13 hours ago, Dankmemes187 said:

hey just because you dont like advanced metrics, and cant handle change doesnt mean you are right.... and you dont get to call me stoopid...

Why in the world, would you think I don't like advanced stats?   Think you need to re-read.   Did you know that Travis Green (sure has a lot of lovers on this site) had his staff help him count zone exits and entries before it was even a thing? (was also why several teams were interested in him...smart guy).  Don't assume anything.    So far it's helped coaches and GMs to a degree.   If it was all there was, Chakya would be a five ring winner by now and getting in as a builder (ARI in case you don't know about him).   Was only a decade plus ago when CHI and LA were the advanced stats darlings because someone with grade five arithmetic skills "discovered" like every single coach for 110 years already knew, you win more games with the puck on your stick (possession), and that both CHI and LA (5 cups in 7 years was it?) had the puck 5% more then the average team, and up to 10% more then the worst teams.  55% was great, 45% was bad.   Enter advanced stats, Chakya and Dubas got GM jobs and then PIT won back to back cups and all that stuff went back into the background lol, how in the world could they win two cups, with middling at best possession stats! 

Then it was speed speed speed speed that's all that matters.   I've been watching hockey a very long time.   If you think that analytics is going to win you a cup, another person will show you exactly why it won't (personally feel it adds to the toolbox of a GM and a coach but that's about it, not all hits are the same for example, same with a lot of other things that are tracked) eyeballs will always matter the most with players, can't read efforts or inspiration into stats but it does help establish a baseline - and advanced stats aren't that great without adding quality of competition lens into it which is far from a science ..WAR had Alex Steen as the best player in the world one year, ahead of Crosby, Kane, Toews, Ovi and on and on.     Certainly don't need a lesson on it either.   But thanks.   Here's a good example, a basic stat like plus minus (a team stat but only to a degree until you see who else is on that line regularly and how they do).   Was Edler no longer a top four player because he got the Green Jacket, as was the worst minus player in the league during our crap years?   Of course not.  Tanev's was better though... just like the eyeballs, defensively that is.  

Another great example, is for decades now, i've watched solid middle six guys, third line guys - get traded to a shallow team, get the power play and top pairing or top six minutes and shine.   It's one of the tricks in winning hockey pools.  Weiss in Florida.    Heck Scotty Walker did it too even.   Miller is now. 

 

Goalies.   What teams are they actually playing against?   Is the back-up "better?" because his SP is better?   Teams also tend to play differently infront of starters they trust ... and well starters get the tougher teams right?

Edited October 16, 2023 by IBatch

[PeteyBOI]

nah fam.. it wasnt me that lost lost their marble because i said kesler was better than miller... and i also retracted me saying so much twice now already... your both being incredulous.. making me look like a bad guy... i love miller... yall are crazy

 

decided to be fair to myself and defend my innocent post

Edited October 17, 2023 by Dankmemes187

[PeteyBOI]

13 hours ago, IBatch said:

Why in the world, would you think I don't like advanced stats?   Think you need to re-read.   Did you know that Travis Green (sure has a lot of lovers on this site) had his staff help him count zone exits and entries before it was even a thing? (was also why several teams were interested in him...smart guy).  Don't assume anything.    So far it's helped coaches and GMs to a degree.   If it was all there was, Chakya would be a five ring winner by now and getting in as a builder (ARI in case you don't know about him).   Was only a decade plus ago when CHI and LA were the advanced stats darlings because someone with grade five arithmetic skills "discovered" like every single coach for 110 years already knew, you win more games with the puck on your stick (possession), and that both CHI and LA (5 cups in 7 years was it?) had the puck 5% more then the average team, and up to 10% more then the worst teams.  55% was great, 45% was bad.   Enter advanced stats, Chakya and Dubas got GM jobs and then PIT won back to back cups and all that stuff went back into the background lol, how in the world could they win two cups, with middling at best possession stats! 

Then it was speed speed speed speed that's all that matters.   I've been watching hockey a very long time.   If you think that analytics is going to win you a cup, another person will show you exactly why it won't (personally feel it adds to the toolbox of a GM and a coach but that's about it, not all hits are the same for example, same with a lot of other things that are tracked) eyeballs will always matter the most with players, can't read efforts or inspiration into stats but it does help establish a baseline - and advanced stats aren't that great without adding quality of competition lens into it which is far from a science ..WAR had Alex Steen as the best player in the world one year, ahead of Crosby, Kane, Toews, Ovi and on and on.     Certainly don't need a lesson on it either.   But thanks.   Here's a good example, a basic stat like plus minus (a team stat but only to a degree until you see who else is on that line regularly and how they do).   Was Edler no longer a top four player because he got the Green Jacket, as was the worst minus player in the league during our crap years?   Of course not.  Tanev's was better though... just like the eyeballs, defensively that is.  

Another great example, is for decades now, i've watched solid middle six guys, third line guys - get traded to a shallow team, get the power play and top pairing or top six minutes and shine.   It's one of the tricks in winning hockey pools.  Weiss in Florida.    Heck Scotty Walker did it too even.   Miller is now. 

 

Goalies.   What teams are they actually playing against?   Is the back-up "better?" because his SP is better?   Teams also tend to play differently infront of starters they trust ... and well starters get the tougher teams right?

ok sir.... i will go back and reread your post.... ok done... You said... "Advanced stats have done dick for scoring" silly me for "assuming" ... I now 100% believe you... especially after you spend your next 2 paragraphs shit talking their use... and on top of it you seem not to even read my evidence on how they are used...I give you all these examples of advanced analytics... and what did you focus on from that 1000 words...? WAR SV% SPEED (are you against speed or scoffing at how it leads to scoring?) go look back WAR, SV% wasnt even in there. 

 

In my past posts about analytics on Luke Schenn and Hughes at the trade dead line was for a reason (there was a very loud mob of people arguing that Schenn was worth a first, i was trying to disprove that before he was traded. I believe I did that despite 50 people mobbing me how fake advanced stats are.  My analysis which did not use WAR, proved he was performing as a bottom 6 dman. And it was to provoke, but not to troll... despite yours's and the other 50 members incredulous arguments, i know changed some peoples minds that day about Schenn... and I guarantee you it prevented many angry comments on Schenn's trade) 

 

 

Now id like to point out your ironic comments about assuming, you have done that 3 times now in just this post alone, once in your second post assuming i dont like miller, and then proceeded to call me stoopid. when did i ever say advanced metrics is going to win you a cup? i didnt ever. and do you know why i don't? because every team in the league uses it, hence there's no advantage. Some might be more advanced in their studies, but word gets out quick, there are no secrets in the world of advanced metrics and analytics. The hockey clubs aren't the experts in finding relations to performance and the stats. Most teams have a consultant and academic statisticians pioneering the advancements. You dont think think i believe in the eye test? i already said i did. WAR is highly controversial if you ever paid attention to my breakdowns of advanced stats i never used WAR once... even though you obviously have never read anything about i have ever written analytics, I would explain how you can accurately find QOC and QOT metrics and it has nothing do with WAR. But i won't, why would you read it now?

im not stupid, even though you may think so... I can piece why a backup might have better stats then a starter, and i wouldn't have to watch a game to come to that conclusion either.

 

so i hand you a shovel and a ladder, your choice what to do with them.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Dankmemes187

[PeteyBOI]

15 hours ago, -dlc- said:

So...two things you overlook. Miller's 99 point season counts as something...yet you want to glance over that. Kes didn't have one of those, despite playing on a pretty stacked team. 

 

And again....Miller's got half the body of work to compare against than Kes does. Sky's the limit.

 

 

I dont want to argue with you or ignore you...

 

despite you being the third person quoting me about my comment "Kesler is so much better" you are the third person seemingly ignoring where i backtracked that statement. you obviously recognized i made a post between that first post, because you made a comment about my wall of text in your response but don't mention my retraction... are you just looking for a fight, i dont want one... go look somewhere else.

 

so these two things i quoted i will also mention and comment... 

 

i actually did address his 99 point season twice, once with my own analysis and the second was in the HFboards topic where a poster points out Keslers top 2 seasons were higher not in points but in standing(keslers were a few spots higher) ... if you dont have time to read my responses, why bother commenting on them?

 

JT is 30, by the time Kesler was 30 he was already suffering from major back issues... Before kesler was traded he was scoring at an amazing 1.10 PPG and he was top 10 in scoring. idk i think its not unfair for me to compare the two players... I was wrong about saying so much better.

 

i really don't think 6 words not even directed at you should have elicited this response, they didn't mention miller in a bad way. 

It makes me wonder if its my words that worked you two up or my past?

 

 

[PistolPete13]

16 hours ago, -dlc- said:

Measurable proof in relation to stats tells some of the story. But, as pointed out, Kes and Burr were a duo. And, as you likely know (or maybe don't) often used a lot of goading and other things to pull players off their game. "Tell Kelly I said hi". I loved it .... was comical. Miller's all business out there. 

 

Kes was a great player no doubt. I just think you've also given reasons why you can't compare the two with a clear winner in the here and now. Game's different.  Different team dynamics. And again, if you're using stuff on paper what about the one where Miller had a 99 point season and Kes didn't. You ignore that stat.

 

"Kesler was SO MUCH better than Miller". So much? That's a personal opinion.

 

You also have a larger sample size with Kes...10 years of it. Miller's got half that to work from.

 

Tell me in your words, without ripping stuff off a stats sheet or copy pasting a wall of text. Because if it was as easy as following a formula then every team would find success, but that's not the case.

 

Miller's more of a team player and wanted to be here despite the lack of success. Kes wanted out and to go to a new team that gave him a better chance of that in his view. All about me stuff.

 

So...two things you overlook. Miller's 99 point season counts as something...yet you want to glance over that. Kes didn't have one of those, despite playing on a pretty stacked team. 

 

And again....Miller's got half the body of work to compare against than Kes does. Sky's the limit.

 

 

Well said DLC. Happy 29th birthday. 

16 hours ago, -dlc- said:

Measurable proof in relation to stats tells some of the story. But, as pointed out, Kes and Burr were a duo. And, as you likely know (or maybe don't) often used a lot of goading and other things to pull players off their game. "Tell Kelly I said hi". I loved it .... was comical. Miller's all business out there. 

 

Kes was a great player no doubt. I just think you've also given reasons why you can't compare the two with a clear winner in the here and now. Game's different.  Different team dynamics. And again, if you're using stuff on paper what about the one where Miller had a 99 point season and Kes didn't. You ignore that stat.

 

"Kesler was SO MUCH better than Miller". So much? That's a personal opinion.

 

You also have a larger sample size with Kes...10 years of it. Miller's got half that to work from.

 

Tell me in your words, without ripping stuff off a stats sheet or copy pasting a wall of text. Because if it was as easy as following a formula then every team would find success, but that's not the case.

 

Miller's more of a team player and wanted to be here despite the lack of success. Kes wanted out and to go to a new team that gave him a better chance of that in his view. All about me stuff.

 

So...two things you overlook. Miller's 99 point season counts as something...yet you want to glance over that. Kes didn't have one of those, despite playing on a pretty stacked team. 

 

And again....Miller's got half the body of work to compare against than Kes does. Sky's the limit.

 

 

Well said DLC. Happy 29th birthday. 

[boziffous]

9 hours ago, Dankmemes187 said:

i actually did address his 99 point season twice, once with my own analysis and the second was in the HFboards topic where a poster points out Keslers top 2 seasons were higher not in points but in standing(keslers were a few spots higher) ... if you dont have time to read my responses, why bother commenting on them?

 

JT is 30, by the time Kesler was 30 he was already suffering from major back issues... Before kesler was traded he was scoring at an amazing 1.10 PPG and he was top 10 in scoring. idk i think its not unfair for me to compare the two players... I was wrong about saying so much better.

 

 

 

JT Miller's 99 points during the 2021-22 season placed him 9th in NHL scoring for that season.

 

Ryan Kesler's 75 points during the 2009-10 season placed him 22nd in NHL scoring for that season.

Ryan Kesler's 73 points during the 2010-11 season placed him in a 6 way tie for 15th in NHL scoring that season.

 

Ryan Kesler never scored over a point per game in any of his NHL seasons.

 

In my opinion Kesler was a better defensive player but Miller is better offensively. As for overall ability I'd say it's pretty close and definitely debatable but I feel that Miller has sustained an overall higher level of play for a longer period of time than Kesler ever did. Kesler had two really good offensive seasons to go along with his outstanding defensive play but a lot of his other seasons offensively were good but not great.

 

 

[PeteyBOI]

26 minutes ago, boziffous said:

 

JT Miller's 99 points during the 2021-22 season placed him 9th in NHL scoring for that season.

 

Ryan Kesler's 75 points during the 2009-10 season placed him 22nd in NHL scoring for that season.

Ryan Kesler's 73 points during the 2010-11 season placed him in a 6 way tie for 15th in NHL scoring that season.

 

Ryan Kesler never scored over a point per game in any of his NHL seasons.

 

In my opinion Kesler was a better defensive player but Miller is better offensively. As for overall ability I'd say it's pretty close and definitely debatable but I feel that Miller has sustained an overall higher level of play for a longer period of time than Kesler ever did. Kesler had two really good offensive seasons to go along with his outstanding defensive play but a lot of his other seasons offensively were good but not great.

 

 

let me tell you selke winners are very good players... and a selke winner that beat the king of selke Bergeron...

Defence wins cups

 

oh btw how many points was kesler on pace before he was traded? what 90 something? man what a stud back then Kesler was a top 5 centerman in the league...

 

but anywho love keep being goaded into something that really doesnt need to be said, but here we go again...

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Dankmemes187

[boziffous]

2 hours ago, Dankmemes187 said:

let me tell you selke winners are very good players... and a selke winner that beat the king of selke Bergeron...

Defence wins cups

 

oh btw how many points was kesler on pace before he was traded? what 90 something? man what a stud back then Kesler was a top 5 centerman in the league...

 

but anywho love keep being goaded into something that really doesnt need to be said, but here we go again...

 

 

What are you talking about Kesler being on pace to score 90 pts before he was traded? Vancouver traded Kesler to the Anaheim Ducks on June 27, 2014. The season was over and the next one had not started yet.

[PeteyBOI]

40 minutes ago, boziffous said:

What are you talking about Kesler being on pace to score 90 pts before he was traded? Vancouver traded Kesler to the Anaheim Ducks on June 27, 2014. The season was over and the next one had not started yet.

Age 20 - Horvat (0.37) Kesler (N/A)
Age 21 - Horvat (0.49) Kesler (0.18)
Age 22 - Horvat (0.64) Kesler (0.28)
Age 23 - Horvat (0.69) Kesler (0.33)
Age 24 - Horvat (0.74) Kesler (0.46)
Age 25 - Horvat (0.77) Kesler (0.72)
Age 26 - Horvat (0.70) Kesler (0.91)
Age 27 - Horvat (0.74) Kesler (0.89)
Age 28 - Horvat (0.89 - was 1.10 before trade) Kesler (0.64)

 

i misread this post...  

 

shall we continue to derail the thread?