[DEBATE] Should we go all in?

[Ghostsof1915]

If our current lineup can be competitive on the upcoming Florida/Tampa/Rangers games. Why should we go all in?

[TopCheese]

Its a long season dont fix it it aint broke + we still have soucy and blueger coming back into the lineup u gotta let the first 20 games go through for a better evaluation

[higgyfan]

No thank you please.  Way too early for this kind of talk.

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Still *way* too early to entertain these thoughts.  It would be like if I began a marathon and was ahead of a few guys from Nigeria or Kenya after 600 meters and started having "fantasies" about qualifying for the Boston Marathon. 

 

If we are still killing it after 20-25 games, THEN I would start "warming up the boner" so to speak.  

 

p.s. - As far as your package goes, would a guy like Tom Wilson fit the bill?  (assuming that Washington starts shitting the bed and choose to rebuild).  Brandon Carlo would also be of interest to me but would Boston part ways with him?  

 

Maybe this regime targets Paul Coffey?  

 

 

 

I like your train of thought on this.

 

Tom Wilson would be great to put on Petey’s right wing. I don’t like his contract however. Which is why I didn’t put Parayko on my list either. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

Still *way* too early to entertain these thoughts.  It would be like if I began a marathon and was ahead of a few guys from Nigeria or Kenya after 600 meters and started having "fantasies" about qualifying for the Boston Marathon. 

 

If we are still killing it after 20-25 games, THEN I would start "warming up the boner" so to speak.

 

 

Vancouver Canucks marathon final results 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022:

 

 

[Diamonds]

I don't think this team has shown enough yet to go all in. That being said, this management group has shown they clearly want to compete now and make playoffs this year. Clearly our biggest need is still a RD who can log top 4 minutes. I'm actually really happy with how management has addressed our bottom 6 forwards and don't feel we should spend more assets to improve it this season.

 

Addressing our defense, I see 3 groups of options: 1) a stopgap vet 2) potential long-term solution in the 23-27 age group 3) a reclamation project

 

Here are some targets I see for each group and some reasons why they might be acquirable.

 

Group 1:

Dylan DeMelo - Upcoming UFA and Winnipeg has right side depth (plus interested in Garland)

Connor Murphy - Chicago is rebuilding and might value picks/prospects more

Nick Jensen - Washington has shown willingness to move vets

Josh Manson - Buried on Colorado

Brett Pesce - Contract negotiations stalled

 

Group 2:

Andrew Peeke - Columbus is trying to shed a defenseman

Henri Jokiharju - Connor Clifton makes him potentially expendable plus he will need a raise

Alexandre Carrier - Nashville is apparently interested in Garland

Will Borgen - Seattle already has Larsson and Schultz on the right side

Brayden Pachal - Buried behind other defensemen in Vegas

Johnathan Kovacevic - Never know what Montreal is willing to trade

 

Group 3:

Ethan Bear - We sort of tried this one already but at the very least he's an upgrade on Juulsen

Dante Fabbro - Similar to Bear with a better pedigree and slightly better defensively

 

Bonus:

Brandon Carlo and Artem Zub - Both of these guys would probably look great beside Hughes but their teams have made room to keep them

[aGENT]

It's two games, let's just relax here. And do I think we should go "all in" as in burning any and all futures in an all out attempt to win the Cup this year? Fuck no. Let's at least make the playoffs first. 

 

Besides, this roster still has too many structural/poorly allocated cap issues for going all in, even if we had a year or two of making the playoffs in the bank. Deal with Myers, Beau and Garland contracts (via trade and/or expiration), replace a couple of them with a legit top 4 RHD and another "Mikheyev", make the playoffs this year.... THEN we can talk about starting to go "all in". And even then, I think we want another run next year and get out from under Poolman's LTIR before we throw the kitchen sink at this thing. Also gives some of our prospects a couple more years to become meaningful contributors in the NHL roster.

 

 

[Canuck You]

6 hours ago, joe-max said:

Canucks lose 2 preseason games in a row: The sky is falling, fire everyone!!!

 

Canucks win 2 games in a row: Plan the parade, noone will ever beat us again!!!!

 

How about

?

 

4 hours ago, Dizzle said:

You don't deserve to be at the Cup parade!

 

 

[MeanSeanBean]

No. This team isn't anywhere close to the level of NJ or Colorado. Going all in will just insure out cup window is shortened with an extremely small chance of competing in the next year or 2. Stick with the plan. I may not have been a fan of the plan, but doesn't matter, you have to sleep in the bed you made.

[Logic]

5 hours ago, tas said:

 

you're not collecting pokemon cards, you're building a team. chemistry and understanding roles is far more important than individual talent. 

Amazing analogy, player chemistry & team cohesion are things which cannot be tracked by stats.

[Elias Pettersson]

10 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

No. This team isn't anywhere close to the level of NJ or Colorado. Going all in will just insure out cup window is shortened with an extremely small chance of competing in the next year or 2. Stick with the plan. I may not have been a fan of the plan, but doesn't matter, you have to sleep in the bed you made.

 

What exactly is the plan?  Did Allvin tell us?

[MeanSeanBean]

9 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

What exactly is the plan?  Did Allvin tell us?

Yes? On plenty of occasions. To summarize, get younger, shed cap, get harder to play against, build organizational depth so the team can be a consistent playoff team.

 

https://canucksarmy.com/news/analyzing-patrik-allvinrjim-rutherford-diverged-original-plan

 

https://canucksarmy.com/news/canucks-gm-patrik-allvin-trade-deadline-approach-creating-winning-culture-rutherfords-management-style-more

 

This was just a quick google, if you want more go listen to Alvin's interviews yourself. But given I wrote out my response before googling it, and the first search outlines exactly what I said, it seems pretty straight forward to me. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by MeanSeanBean

[Devron]

Absolutely no way in hell 

[Jeremy Hronek]

7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

We just beat one of the Stanley Cup favourites in back to back games.  Our team looks good.  Our team defence looks great.  Our goaltending looks all worldly.  We are still missing Mikheyev, Blueger and Soucy.  Add those 3 players to the lineup and we are 100% a playoff team.

 

So, the question becomes how far can we go with this current team?  Can we win a round in the playoffs?  With our goaltending and team defence I would say yes.  So, how far do we really want to go?  Can we actually improve our team enough this year to win it all?

 

I look at this team and see two complete lines:

 

Kuzmenko    Pettersson     Mikheyev

Joshua         Blueger          Lafferty

 

I wouldn’t touch those lines.  1st line and 4th line are complete.  Our second line looks good too:

 

PDG     Miller    Boeser 

 

I like PDG and we usually need to have an Italian in the lineup.  However, in order to win it all we probably need an upgrade on him.

 

Our 3rd line is the biggest problem:

 

Beauvillier/Höglander    Suter     Garland

 

Our 3rd line is too small to be a powerful checking line and not good enough to be a true scoring line.  I like Suter, he is fine as a 3C but we need to upgrade the wingers.  Garland and Beauviller take up $9.1 million in cap space.  Oh my. That’s insane.  Imagine what we could get for $9.1 million?

 

How about our defence?  Hughes and Hronek are elite.  Ian Cole is very good defensively. Soucy is big and strong and will be great on the 3rd pairing in the playoffs.  That leaves Myers and Juulsen.  Juulsen is not an NHL defenceman. Myers is frustrating to watch but has the tools to be effective if he wants to be.

 

Hughes    Hronek

Cole         Myers

Soucy      Juulsen

 

In order to be a cup contender we definitely have to upgrade on Juulsen.  

 

And finally the goalies.  Yes, our backup goalie would be the starter in Edmonton.  We are good to go with the goalies.  We could win the cup with them.

 

Demko    DeSmith

 

So, do we go all in?  If so, what do we upgrade and how would that work?

 

For me, IF we want to go all in, we need at least 3 guys.  2 wingers and a Dman.  Guys I would target are as follows:

 

Lawson Crouse - perfect player to compliment Miller and Boeser and a major upgrade on PDG

Andrew Peeke - defensive Dman who can play up and down the lineup.  Massive upgrade on Juulsen

 

Other players I’d look at:

 

Trent Frederic

Brandon Carlo

Yakov Trenin

Alexis Lafreniere 

Nico Sturm

Garnet Hathaway

Kasperi Kapanen

Robert Bortuzzo

Mason Appleton

Dylan Demelo

 

What would it take to get some of these guys?  Would you give up the 2024 1st, Vasili Podkolzin, Nils Höglander?  

 

IMO, Jonathan Lekkerimaki and Tom Willander are untouchable.  Everyone else however could be on the table depending on the offer…

 

One other thought - Lafreniere could be a good Kuzmenko replacement in a couple of seasons if we eventually walk from Kuzmenko (age).   

 

Does Myers, 2024 1st, Podkolzin, and Hoglander get you Carlo?  Carlo would be a significant upgrade on Myers and would also come in at a lower cap hit.  Carlo would be a more ideal fit for Hughes than Hronek (although Hughes-Hronek have looked really good together), while Hronek would probably be a better stylistic fit with Cole or Soucy. 

 

On the flip side - I actually like the fact that we've got some legitimately good prospects cooking on the farm (i.e. Raty, Podkolzin, Lekkerimaki, etc.).   We will need a lot of these ELC contracts to become impact players when OEL's cap penalty reaches its peak.  

Edited October 15, 2023 by Jeremy Hronek

[gwarrior]

Anything can happen. Take Seattle for example. They made the playoffs last year, but who thought they would take out Colorado? Do I think the Canucks are a playoff team, yes. But it's far too early to judge wether we should go all in.

[bertuzzi44fan]

All in?We're just back on the upswing after years.

[Huggy Bear]

44 minutes ago, Diamonds said:

I don't think this team has shown enough yet to go all in. That being said, this management group has shown they clearly want to compete now and make playoffs this year. Clearly our biggest need is still a RD who can log top 4 minutes. I'm actually really happy with how management has addressed our bottom 6 forwards and don't feel we should spend more assets to improve it this season.

 

Addressing our defense, I see 3 groups of options: 1) a stopgap vet 2) potential long-term solution in the 23-27 age group 3) a reclamation project

 

Here are some targets I see for each group and some reasons why they might be acquirable.

 

Group 1:

Dylan DeMelo - Upcoming UFA and Winnipeg has right side depth (plus interested in Garland)

Connor Murphy - Chicago is rebuilding and might value picks/prospects more

Nick Jensen - Washington has shown willingness to move vets

Josh Manson - Buried on Colorado

Brett Pesce - Contract negotiations stalled

 

Group 2:

Andrew Peeke - Columbus is trying to shed a defenseman

Henri Jokiharju - Connor Clifton makes him potentially expendable plus he will need a raise

Alexandre Carrier - Nashville is apparently interested in Garland

Will Borgen - Seattle already has Larsson and Schultz on the right side

Brayden Pachal - Buried behind other defensemen in Vegas

Johnathan Kovacevic - Never know what Montreal is willing to trade

 

Group 3:

Ethan Bear - We sort of tried this one already but at the very least he's an upgrade on Juulsen

Dante Fabbro - Similar to Bear with a better pedigree and slightly better defensively

 

Bonus:

Brandon Carlo and Artem Zub - Both of these guys would probably look great beside Hughes but their teams have made room to keep them

 

Great post, thanks - love the tiers

 

[Hairy Kneel]

Not so much all in

But I think we can still keep trying to shed cap with pieces other teams may be interested in. Myers, Garland and Bovo.

Then try and get someone like a RHD or w.e.

[Elias Pettersson]

19 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Yes? On plenty of occasions. To summarize, get younger, shed cap, get harder to play against, build organizational depth so the team can be a consistent playoff team.

 

https://canucksarmy.com/news/analyzing-patrik-allvinrjim-rutherford-diverged-original-plan

 

https://canucksarmy.com/news/canucks-gm-patrik-allvin-trade-deadline-approach-creating-winning-culture-rutherfords-management-style-more

 

This was just a quick google, if you want more go listen to Alvin's interviews yourself. But given I wrote out my response before googling it, and the first search outlines exactly what I said, it seems pretty straight forward to me. 

 

Yes, that is exactly what we are doing.  Rutherford and Aquilini also said they want to win a Stanley Cup.  Petey also wants to win a cup and is currently not signed for next season.  Nobody is saying we need to trade all of our prospects for upcoming UFA's in order to do what Boston did last year.  I identified the holes on the team and said this is what needs to be filled.  I also even mentioned that our two best prospects, Willander and Lekkerimaki, are untouchable.

 

I have no problem with trading anyone else and even our 2024 1st for the right player.  Lawson Crouse is only 26 years old.  I'd easily trade our 2024 1st for him as well as one of two of our prospects.  He is exactly the type of player we are missing and we don't have anyone in the organization like him.  We also need a big, rugged stay at home RHD.  We don't have one of those in the organization either.

 

At the end of the day, we need to fill the holes in order to win the cup.  If we don't have certain players that are needed to win the cup and we don't even have them in the organization, then it makes sense to go and get them...

Edited October 15, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[MeanSeanBean]

47 minutes ago, Diamonds said:

I don't think this team has shown enough yet to go all in. That being said, this management group has shown they clearly want to compete now and make playoffs this year. Clearly our biggest need is still a RD who can log top 4 minutes. I'm actually really happy with how management has addressed our bottom 6 forwards and don't feel we should spend more assets to improve it this season.

 

Addressing our defense, I see 3 groups of options: 1) a stopgap vet 2) potential long-term solution in the 23-27 age group 3) a reclamation project

 

Here are some targets I see for each group and some reasons why they might be acquirable.

 

Group 1:

Dylan DeMelo - Upcoming UFA and Winnipeg has right side depth (plus interested in Garland)

Connor Murphy - Chicago is rebuilding and might value picks/prospects more

Nick Jensen - Washington has shown willingness to move vets

Josh Manson - Buried on Colorado

Brett Pesce - Contract negotiations stalled

 

Group 2:

Andrew Peeke - Columbus is trying to shed a defenseman

Henri Jokiharju - Connor Clifton makes him potentially expendable plus he will need a raise

Alexandre Carrier - Nashville is apparently interested in Garland

Will Borgen - Seattle already has Larsson and Schultz on the right side

Brayden Pachal - Buried behind other defensemen in Vegas

Johnathan Kovacevic - Never know what Montreal is willing to trade

 

Group 3:

Ethan Bear - We sort of tried this one already but at the very least he's an upgrade on Juulsen

Dante Fabbro - Similar to Bear with a better pedigree and slightly better defensively

 

Bonus:

Brandon Carlo and Artem Zub - Both of these guys would probably look great beside Hughes but their teams have made room to keep them

Thomas Drance, that you? Them are some usage of tier system. You gonna talk about bell curves and Dom's model next?

[MeanSeanBean]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Yes, that is exactly what we are doing.  Rutherford and Aquilini also said they want to win a Stanley Cup.  Petey also wants to win a cup and is currently not signed for next season.  Nobody is saying we need to trade all of our prospects for upcoming IFA's in order to do what Boston did last year.  I identified the holes on the team and said this is what needs to be filled.  I also even mentioned that our two best prospects, Willander and Lekkerimaki, are untouchable.

 

I have no problem with trading anyone else and even our 2024 1st for the right player.  Lawson Crouse is only 26 years old.  I'd easily trade our 2024 1st for him as well as one of two of our prospects.  He is exactly the type of player we are missing and we don't have anyone in the organization like him.  We also need a big, rugged stay at home RHD.  We don't have one of those in the organization either.

 

At the end of the day, we need to fill the holes in order to win the cup.  If we don't have certain players that are needed to win the cup and we don't even have them in the organization, then it makes sense to go and get them...

And we also need prospects to fill upcoming spots on the cheap. I think the premise of going all in right now is ridiculous. 

[Elias Pettersson]

10 minutes ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

One other thought - Lafreniere could be a good Kuzmenko replacement in a couple of seasons if we eventually walk from Kuzmenko (age).   

 

Does Myers, 2024 1st, Podkolzin, and Hoglander get you Carlo?  Carlo would be a significant upgrade on Myers and would also come in at a lower cap hit.  Carlo would be a more ideal fit for Hughes than Hronek (although Hughes-Hronek have looked really good together), while Hronek would probably be a better stylistic fit with Cole or Soucy. 

 

On the flip side - I actually like the fact that we've got some legitimately good prospects cooking on the farm (i.e. Raty, Podkolzin, Lekkerimaki, etc.).   We will need a lot of these ELC contracts to become impact players when OEL's cap penalty reaches its peak.  

 

I'd do that deal for Carlo and Trent Frederic.  Two players that we don't have and we need in order to win a cup.  We can draft all day long but this organization has proven for decades that it can't draft big, bruising RHD and big imposing power forwards.  And the only big, bruising power forward that we drafted who turned out pretty good we ended up trading him...

[Huggy Bear]

It looks like next year is the year to make a significant push, and possibly trade a (2025) 1st for a RHD.
 

Heres one scenario (not a prediction, and using quick contract estimates):

 

 

Essentially, we resign our key FA’s, including recent depth signings who are working out. If prospects like Räty are ready, or Hirose/McWard can play higher in the line up, even better (and more cap to play with).

 

Assuming we make the playoffs this year, we could bring back nearly the same team, with $6M to upgrade our top 4D:

 

[Elias Pettersson]

8 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

And we also need prospects to fill upcoming spots on the cheap. I think the premise of going all in right now is ridiculous. 

 

Most of the holes that are tough to fill have been filled.  We are only missing a top 6 forward and a top 4 RHD.  Like you said, we can fill the rest with prospects moving forward.  Lekkerimaki and Willander are elite prospects that IMO will be top line NHL players, so they can fill 2 huge holes on ELC contracts.  Same with Raty.  Other than that, we have a bunch of guys that may or may not make the NHL.  3rd and 4th line wingers can be obtained via trade or free agency.  See Blueger, Joshua and Lafferty as examples.

 

What cannot be acquired via free agency is a power forward and a top 4 RHD.  You either have to draft them or trade for them.  Going all in doesn't necessarily mean the Boston approach from last year.  You can go all in by getting a Lawson Crouse who is only entering his prime years and is a perfect age for our core.  Same with Brandon Carlo and Trent Frederic...

Edited October 15, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[Elias Pettersson]

I think some are mistaking my "going all in", as doing what Boston did last year, which is trading picks and prospects for expiring UFA's.  That wasn't the intention of this thread.  What I really meant to say is going out and acquiring top players to fill the holes on the team whereby we don't even have those players in the organization.

 

Lawson Crouse, Trent Frederic, Brandon Carlo are examples of guys just entering their prime years that would fit perfectly with our core players and are guys that we don't currently have...