[DEBATE] Should we go all in?

[aGENT]

7 minutes ago, Huggy Bear said:

Nashville wants to maintain their ‘Smashville’ identity, so not sure how willing they’d be to move Trenin. They’ve been rumoured to want to move on from Fabbro for awhile, which is supported by the 1 year extension.

 

Fabbro ($2.5M) & Trenin ($1.7M)

 

for

 

Garland, and?

 

Trenin is a UFA this summer, they may have no choice in the matter   

 

I'd certainly take Fabbro as part of the package to get Trenin and move Garland though. Worst case, we can probably flip Fabbro as a pending RFA. The cap is pretty close too...wonder what we'd have to add....

 

7 minutes ago, Huggy Bear said:

 

As for Lyubushkin, I’m not sure if he has the smarts to click with Hughes, but he has speed, hits, and focuses on defence. Lots for Foote & Gonchar to work on there within our system.

 

That's the thing, he's probably pretty close to a younger, faster Schenn (minus the leadership intangibles). Is he the perfect long term Hughes partner? F-no. But he's got enough tools to potentially hang there, fill that hole (with solid D, skating and physicality) and then slide down the roster as we find/develop better pieces.

[Huggy Bear]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

 

Trenin is a UFA this summer, they may have no choice in the matter   

 

I'd certainly take Fabbro as part of the package to get Trenin and move Garland though. Worst case, we can probably flip Fabbro as a pending RFA. The cap is pretty close too...wonder what we'd have to add....

 

 

That's the thing, he's probably pretty close to a younger, faster Schenn (minus the leadership intangibles). Is he the perfect long term Hughes partner? F-no. But he's got enough tools to potentially hang there, fill that hole (with solid D, skating and physicality) and then slide down the roster as we find/develop better pieces.

Maybe Garland (full freight), Joshua & Johansson for Fabbro & Trenin?

Lol, I was just responding to you in the Garland* thread with the same point about Fabbro being a tradeable asset. 
 

As for the Russian Bear, Lyubushkin, he seems like a perfect low-risk candidate to try with Hughes, then slide down as needed.

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Huggy Bear
referenced the wrong thread* spelling

[cripplereh]

I think it's still to early, but if a deal comes to us you have to pull the trigger.

[Eddie]

Not sure about going 'all in' - but I would support making a few smart trades of futures to help support this core and show them and the fan base we can win, that's important i think.  Its a long seasons with injuries and ups and downs.  Its what Jim would have done 

 

If we could get a 'borderline' 2nd line RHD on cheap contract who is strong defensive but maybe not as good offensively and on an appropriately cheaper contract (~4m) would really bloody help. 

 

As mentioned Wingers with size and speed could also help again we need to be mindful of future cap with OEL recap, Petey, Hronek etc all going to eat a lot of cap going forward if all goes well. 

 

I think i would give up : 

2024 1st for the right player ( age, position, cap ) 

Podz - I'm still rooting for the kid but i kinda feel he is what he is right now. 

Garland / Beau - have yet to develop positive value this year, but they might yet rack the points up and appeal to someone

Anyone on the AHL roster not named Raty or Silovs 

A 2nd, 3rd or 5th round pick - for old times sake.  Not a 4th or 6th tho - we bloody love those 

 

The reason I'm prepared to give up such riches, is simply because even if Lekkermaki and Willander play out were still short those kinda players in the system with no one looking anything like a sure bet. 

[Quinn4theWin]

Wait till the trade deadline and see where we are and what we should do. I would stay away from rentals though.

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, aGENT said:

It's two games, let's just relax here. And do I think we should go "all in" as in burning any and all futures in an all out attempt to win the Cup this year? Fuck no. Let's at least make the playoffs first. 

 

Besides, this roster still has too many structural/poorly allocated cap issues for going all in, even if we had a year or two of making the playoffs in the bank. Deal with Myers, Beau and Garland contracts (via trade and/or expiration), replace a couple of them with a legit top 4 RHD and another "Mikheyev", make the playoffs this year.... THEN we can talk about starting to go "all in". And even then, I think we want another run next year and get out from under Poolman's LTIR before we throw the kitchen sink at this thing. Also gives some of our prospects a couple more years to become meaningful contributors in the NHL roster.

 

 

It is for sure two games.  But they do have to pick a lane.   And it does need to happen next year at the latest.     

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, IBatch said:

It is for sure two games.  But they do have to pick a lane.   And it does need to happen next year at the latest.     

I think the lane is pretty clear. We're not stepping back for a deeper retool, that's for sure. Pretty sure the plan involves shedding less efficient cap/poor roster fits as opportunity or time allows, on a steady march towards a more competitive, contending roster in the next few years.

[IBatch]

6 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I think the lane is pretty clear. We're not stepping back for a deeper retool, that's for sure. Pretty sure the plan involves shedding less efficient cap/poor roster fits as opportunity or time allows, on a steady march towards a more competitive, contending roster in the next few years.

That's true.   But you can't sit on the fence either when you've got guys like EP and QHs either.     Sakic had a lot of good things too ... he kept Mckinnon and Landeskog.  Duchene was the Horvat, and Barrie wasn't considered chopped liver back then either.   He made moves.  Quin didn't either.   We won't go far with this core playing it safe.   All that will result in, is legacy deals with nothing accomplished.   That's where picking a lane comes in.   And for sure not complaining.    They've been patient so far, and done some things.   Their best move so far might be Tochett.   Might not be too.    We wont win a cup with QHs and Soucy locked down.   We still need to either trade futures, to help them, or Kuzmenko.    Free agency certainly isn't the answer. 

[sashimi]

Ask again at the trade deadline lol.

 

Awesome start. Enjoy it. 

 

But making concrete decisions based on a two game sample is not the most intelligent way to go about things. 

[RWJC]

Wonder how this would have affected things right now if it panned out and we signed him.

His contract expires at end of this season and apparently he's not interested in extending in CGY.

He's also a MIllstein client...

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by RWJC

[Huggy Bear]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I think the lane is pretty clear. We're not stepping back for a deeper retool, that's for sure. Pretty sure the plan involves shedding less efficient cap/poor roster fits as opportunity or time allows, on a steady march towards a more competitive, contending roster in the next few years.

Yep. JRPA have been very transparent. They want to clear a couple contracts, add a couple dman, and a big, fast winger (or two).

 

Sounds like they’re trying to do two at once with Garland for a defender. Like Friedman said, teams want to see what they have before making trades, so this one might take awhile.

[Jeremy Hronek]

9 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I'd do that deal for Carlo and Trent Frederic.  

 

I'd do it as well, but why would Boston at this point?   Has Boston announced that they intend to go the rebuild route?   

[Jeremy Hronek]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

It is for sure two games.  But they do have to pick a lane.   And it does need to happen next year at the latest.     

 

This is a really good point.  Our window with our current core is a lot shorter than people might think.

 

-Pettersson is an RFA at the end of the season. What he decides to do at year end, we don't know.

-Demko has 3 years left (Can Silovs be an adequate replacement?)

-Kuzmenko = 2 years

-Boeser = 2 years

-Peak Miller before age related decline = 3 years

-Although Hughes, American born, has four years left, his younger brothers both play on the same team and they have a VERY tight-knit family.  American players aren't exactly inclined to sticking around in Canada (although there are exceptions obviously).   Both Jack and Luke have already indirectly engaged in tampering to which the league has chosen to ignore.  

 

And to add further complication, we have peak OEL buyout cap penalty 2 and 3 years from now.  

 

My gut feeling and thoughts on the above is as follows:

 

1) Pettersson will re-sign with us with the Dahlin contract.

2) We will walk from Demko at or before 3 years with Silovs successfully taking the reigns.

3) Podkolzin will be a bust but Hoglander will surprisingly figure it out and become a Mason Raymond type player for us.....maybe even more.  

4) Both Kuzmenko and Boeser will be gone at contract expiration.  

5) Raty will be our Puis Suter replacement at some point.  

6)I *think* we will be successful in re-signing Quinn Hughes (knock on wood) but I'm being biased here.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DSVII]

Unless it's an impact player 26 and under I'd hold onto that 1st. 

 

 

[Elias Pettersson]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

It is for sure two games.  But they do have to pick a lane.   And it does need to happen next year at the latest.     

I agree my friend. This team is being built to win now, not 5 years from now. Petey needs to sign an extension next summer. Miller will be 31 next summer. Demko has 3 years left then you have to make a decision on a 30 year old goalie. Look at what Hellebyck just got. That’s what Demko will get on his next contract. Hughes is a UFA in 4 years. Look at what Dahlin just got. That’s  Hughes number. What about Kuzmenko and Boeser?  Both are UFA’s in 2 years. How exactly do we pay all these guys?  
 

The pieces we are missing we don’t actually have. Not even in our system. A power forward like Lawson Crouse or Trent Frederic. I guess Podkolzin is supposed to be that guy. But Podkolzin may never make it as a power forward in the top 6. A top 4 defensive RHD like Brandon Carlo?  We don’t even have one in the organization. Maybe D-Petey, but he’s a lefty. 
 

I love Lekkerimaki and Willander. Both will be in the NHL within 2 years. D-Petey might arrive soon after as well as Raty. So we have a few guys who will be on ELC’s. We can pick up 3rd and 4th liners and 3rd pairing Dmen all day long via free agency. 
 

The guys we are missing however aren’t available via free agency. You either have to draft them or trade for them. 
 

Allvin has already traded high picks for a top 4 RHD. Who’s to say he won’t do the same thing again? Look at how aggressive Rutherford was in Pittsburgh. If this team can easily make the playoffs this year you might see that same aggressive nature with Allvin this year. Especially at the deadline. For sure in the summer. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[RWJC]

7 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I agree my friend. This team is being built to win now, not 5 years from now. Petey needs to sign an extension next summer. Miller will be 31 next summer. Demko had 3 years left then you have to make a decision on a 30 year old goalie. Look at what Hellebyck just got. That’s what Demko will get on his next contract. Hughes is a UFA in 4 years. Look at what Dahlin just got. That Hughes number. What about Kuzmenko and Boeser?  Both are UFA’s in 2 years. How exactly do we pay all these guys?  
 

The pieces we are missing we don’t actually have. Not even in our system. A power forward like Lawson Crouse or Trent Frederic. I guess Podkolzin is supposed to be that guy. But Podkolzin may never make it as a power forward in the top 6. A top 4 defensive RHD like Brandon Carlo?  We don’t even have one in the organization. Maybe D-Petey, but he’s a lefty. 
 

I love Lekkerimaki and Willander. Both will be in the NHL within 2 years. D-Petey might arrive soon after as well as Raty. So we have a few guys who will be in ELC’s. we can pick up 3rd and 4th liners and 3rd pairing Dmen all day long via free agency. 
 

The guys we are missing however aren’t available via free agency. You either have to draft them or trade for them. 
 

Allvin has already traded high picks for a top 4 RHD. Who’s to say he won’t do the same thing again? Look at how aggressive Rutherford was in Pittsburgh. If this team can easily make the playoffs this year you might see that same aggressive nature with Allvin this year. Especially at the deadline. For sure in the summer. 

Absolutely and with merit. 

I look at it this way…if we have a melt down and can’t find success with this core and a very solid supporting cast, the picks we traded away will be recouped in the sell off. And although it may set us back a few years in terms of a potential rebuild, at least we exhausted what we had with this group of talent in finding out how far they could take it. That’s the whole point…to compete and build within windows of opportunity. Some people will still say we aren’t there but 3 elite players just entering prime in each major position is just something too good not to invest wholeheartedly into. Like it or not, this year is the show me year and you can’t measure what you’re really capable of unless you dare to push for improvement.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by RWJC

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Hronek said:

 

I'd do it as well, but why would Boston at this point?   Has Boston announced that they intend to go the rebuild route?   

No Boston is still pretending to be a playoff contender. So this trade might take awhile. Once Boston figures out that Lucic is not the answer and that Bergeron and Krejci aren’t actually coming back to save them, then they may go into rebuilding mode and make some moves. 
 

Carlo and Frederic separately probably get a first and Podkolzin. If we want both we might have to give Boston two firsts plus Podkolzin and another prospect or two. It would be a blockbuster trade that’s for sure. A game changer. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[RWJC]

8 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

No Boston is still pretending to be a playoff contender. So this trade might take awhile. Once Boston figured out that Lucic is not the answer and that Bergeron and Krejci aren’t actually coming back to save them, then they may go into rebuilding mode and make some moves. 
 

Carlo and Frederic separately probably get a first and Podkolzin. If we want both we might have to give Boston two firsts plus Podkolzin and another prospect or two. It would be a blockbuster trade that’s for sure. A game changer. 

that is a lot of talent that they give up though and will have many suitors. It’d be tough to consummate with what they’d want from us and I hazard a guess it’ll be more than what you think it’d be. Think they’d want another prospect like Lekkerimaki or  Brzustewicz and a roster player like Hogs as well as Podz and a 1st. And they’d provide something like Carlo, Frederic and Lysell in return. I believe it’d be that expensive because Carlo is on a great contract for the next few years at only 4.1. He’s very desirable at that price point and as such would cost a premium,  imho. It sounds like an overpayment but that’s what we’d be in competition with. NYR can offer a Lafreniere + +. It won’t be cheap. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by RWJC

[Elias Pettersson]

7 minutes ago, RWJC said:

Absolutely and with merit. 

I look at it this way…if we have a melt down and can’t find success with this core and a very solid supporting cast, the picks we traded away will be recouped in the sell off. And although it may set us back a few years in terms of a potential rebuild, at least we exhausted what we had with this group of talent in finding out how far they could take it. That’s the whole point…to compete and build within windows of opportunity. Some people will still say we aren’t there but 3 elite players just entering prime in each major position is just something too good not to invest wholeheartedly into. Like it or not, this year is the show me year and you can’t measure what you’re really capable of unless you go all in.

I agree 100%. How many times in our history have we had 3 elite game changers at each position, forward, defence and goalie?  Probably never. Even in 1994 and 2011 we never had a Quinn Hughes. 
 

We need to thank Benning for at least giving us those 3 guys. Now it’s up to Allvin to clean up the rest of the mess and take this team to cup contender. If we can’t win a cup with Petey, Quinn and Demko all in their primes then we probably never will. 

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, RWJC said:

that’s is a lot of talent that they give up though and will have many suitors. It’d be tough to consummate with what they’d want from us and I hazard a guess it’ll be more than what you think it’d be. Think they’d want another prospect like Lekkerimaki or  Brzustewicz and a roster player like Hogs as well as Podz and a 1st. And they’d provide something like Carlo, Frederic and Lysell in return. I believe it’d be that expensive because Carlo is on a great contract for the next few years at only 4.1. He’s very desirable at that price point and as such would cost a premium,  imho. It sounds like an overpayment but that’s what we’d be in competition with. NYR can offer a Lafreniere + +. It won’t be cheap. 

Other than Willander and Lekkerimaki, and maybe Raty, all of our other prospects could be on the table. 
 

Two firsts, Podkolzin, Höglander, McDonough, Rathbone (the Boston boys). They should all be on the table. Allvin would definitely move the Benning picks.  I’m sure he wants to keep his own picks. 

[Elias Pettersson]

3 hours ago, RWJC said:

Wonder how this would have affected things right now if it panned out and we signed him.

His contract expires at end of this season and apparently he's not interested in extending in CGY.

He's also a MIllstein client...

 

I’d be all in on Zadorov next summer. I love Ian Cole but he will be 35 next summer. Replacing him with a 29 year old 6’6” Zadorov is a no brainer. 
 

#WeAreGoldStar

[OldFaithfulcap]

[wai_lai416]

I don’t think we go all in. If they are in a playoff position they prolly still should look at moving beau and Myers at the deadline and if there’s a move kinda like a hronek. 1st + for a top 4 that’s either still have terms or are still rfa you take a look at that. Under no circumstance should we trade for any rentals

[D-Money]

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I agree my friend. This team is being built to win now, not 5 years from now. Petey needs to sign an extension next summer. Miller will be 31 next summer. Demko has 3 years left then you have to make a decision on a 30 year old goalie. Look at what Hellebyck just got. That’s what Demko will get on his next contract. Hughes is a UFA in 4 years. Look at what Dahlin just got. That’s  Hughes number. What about Kuzmenko and Boeser?  Both are UFA’s in 2 years. How exactly do we pay all these guys?  
 

The pieces we are missing we don’t actually have. Not even in our system. A power forward like Lawson Crouse or Trent Frederic. I guess Podkolzin is supposed to be that guy. But Podkolzin may never make it as a power forward in the top 6. A top 4 defensive RHD like Brandon Carlo?  We don’t even have one in the organization. Maybe D-Petey, but he’s a lefty. 
 

I love Lekkerimaki and Willander. Both will be in the NHL within 2 years. D-Petey might arrive soon after as well as Raty. So we have a few guys who will be on ELC’s. We can pick up 3rd and 4th liners and 3rd pairing Dmen all day long via free agency. 
 

The guys we are missing however aren’t available via free agency. You either have to draft them or trade for them. 
 

Allvin has already traded high picks for a top 4 RHD. Who’s to say he won’t do the same thing again? Look at how aggressive Rutherford was in Pittsburgh. If this team can easily make the playoffs this year you might see that same aggressive nature with Allvin this year. Especially at the deadline. For sure in the summer. 

Glad someone else is paying attention to the math.    This team needs to show something this season, next at the absolute latest, or we need to consider doing what Ottawa did.   And they actually made it to one OT goal away from the final.   EK at the time, wasn't injury riddled.   Was every bit as generational as Crosby and Ovi were at the same age.    Not going to get into that, but already joined Orr, Potvin and Coffey as the only other D's to be top ten in scoring 3 or more times in their careers.   Stone was getting massive recognition locally, but wasn't a household name outside of OTT market.    
 

We haven't made the playoffs properly yet.   That team blew it up after a failed Duchene trade.   And it turned out the right thing to do.    How would they afford EK, Zib and Stone as the key guys in a 53% tax market?   All would be making more than they currently do.   

 

These middling picks... wont help QHs and EP this year or next year.   We need probably two JT Miller like trades to fix our cap (and make us a contender)   .. A third line center who can replace JT or EP when they go down.    And a very good top four D.    A Mitchell type would be perfect.   QHs and Hronek ... where's the beef?   And on that, because come playoff time it's required, we do need a big forward who's surly and can put the puck in the net in the top six.   Currently we don't have any, unless Miller moves to the wing and that's not what i'm thinking of either.    Tom Wilson minus the stupid antics.   Brady T.  

 

Sure hope Tochett can whip these guys into peak shape (EP sure took him seriously) ... personally feel that too many of todays athlete's don't work hard enough in the gym (go look at TB's volleyball day, two time champs  ... yikes most roofer crews look better then that)  Tochett knew right away this team lacked in that department.   It will help the grind but and give us an edge, but only go so far.   

 

Truly hope what's been done is enough to make the playoffs because I like this team and the players.   Their prime cap window is right now!   Not in 2-3 years.  Or 4-6 years.    Really it's this year, and the following year. 

 

 

To me, they either need to double down on what they have and trade futures, a lot of them, or start preparing for a blow up.   Can't sit on the fence and play it safe forever.   Sakic did just that with Duchene,  played a patient safe game, then started the work.  Hopefully that will work out for us with Horvat, but still a lot to do. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by IBatch