[DEBATE] Should we go all in?

[MeanSeanBean]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Most of the holes that are tough to fill have been filled.  We are only missing a top 6 forward and a top 4 RHD.  Like you said, we can fill the rest with prospects moving forward.  Lekkerimaki and Willander are elite prospects that IMO will be top line NHL players, so they can fill 2 huge holes on ELC contracts.  Same with Raty.  Other than that, we have a bunch of guys that may or may not make the NHL.  3rd and 4th line wingers can be obtained via trade or free agency.  See Blueger, Joshua and Lafferty as examples.

 

What cannot be acquired via free agency is a power forward and a top4 RHD.  You either have to draft them or trade for them.  Going all in doesn't necessarily mean the Boston approach from last year.  You can go all in by getting a Lawson Crouse who is only entering his prime years and is a perfect age for our core.  Same with Brandon Carlo and Trent Frederic...

Morgaging the future further to buy high on players is a terrible idea. We've done that already. That's what the Hronek trade was. You can only do that so much.

 

Since you talked about Carlo. That 1st, Podkolzin, Hoglander trade or whatever it was up top is the worst. If this management made a trade like that I would lose all faith that this team is going to win a cup with Hughes and Petey. 

 

Stick with the plan. The second this management group does something to show me they have lost the plot, I'm going to lump them into the same boat is Benning. The only way to make this work is to be calculated and consistent. That Carlo trade is Benning all over again. How much does that proposal remind you of Guddy trade? It's uncanny.

[Snoop Hogg]

Way too soon. Another thing you have to consider is teams around them. We know we can compete with Edmonton. Let’s see how we do against the rest of the teams in our own division and conference first. I still wouldn’t want to sell the farm, but at least we would know where we are at before making any more significant moves. 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Morgaging the future further to buy high on players is a terrible idea. We've done that already. That's what the Hronek trade was. You can only do that so much.

 

Since you talked about Carlo. That 1st, Podkolzin, Hoglander trade or whatever it was up top is the worst. If this management made a trade like that I would lose all faith that this team is going to win a cup with Hughes and Petey. 

 

Stick with the plan. The second this management group does something to show me they have lost the plot, I'm going to lump them into the same boat is Benning. The only way to make this work is to be calculated and consistent. That Carlo trade is Benning all over again. How much does that proposal remind you of Guddy trade? It's uncanny.

 

I wouldn't do that trade only for Carlo for sure.  But if Boston added Trent Frederic I would be all over it.  Two guys that you need to win a cup that we don't even have in the organization that are still just entering their prime years.  When exactly did Jim Benning ever acquire a top 4 defensive RHD along with a 17-goal power forward who can drop the gloves with heavyweights and a guy even Ovechkin is scared of?

 

Tampa traded an entire draft classs for Tanner Jeannot.  A 1st, Podkolzin and Hoglander for Carlo and Frederic is probably a lopsided trade in Vancouver's favour and we would have to add...

[Huggy Bear]

2 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Morgaging the future further to buy high on players is a terrible idea. We've done that already. That's what the Hronek trade was. You can only do that so much.

 

Since you talked about Carlo. That 1st, Podkolzin, Hoglander trade or whatever it was up top is the worst. If this management made a trade like that I would lose all faith that this team is going to win a cup with Hughes and Petey. 

 

Stick with the plan. The second this management group does something to show me they have lost the plot, I'm going to lump them into the same boat is Benning. The only way to make this work is to be calculated and consistent. That Carlo trade is Benning all over again. How much does that proposal remind you of Guddy trade? It's uncanny.

Agree here. Carlo is one concussion away from calling it a career, so don’t want us to push so many chips in for him.
 

The plan shared last offseason was playoffs this year, and contending in 3 years (25/26), when Petey and Quinn are in their primes.

 

IMHO, Podkolzin has (cost controlled) power forward potential, and McWard has top 4 D upside. 
 

Would love to see us give them each a year of development, and keep our 2024 1st pick to round out our prospects. 
 

In the meantime, we can keep scanning for opportunistic trades, and consider trading our 25/26 1sts if needed.
 

 

 

[LillStrimma]

I would let this team gel and have this year as a fun experiance while PA tries to find cheap gems because we don’t have any pressure on us.

 

Next season we can have both the second coming of Elias and Willander on D and Lekkerimäki coming in hard.

 

So relax for now and have fun.

Let the missing pieces drop to us while our prospects get better and better.

 

The times when we had to rely on Bennings pro scouting is gone…

 

[MeanSeanBean]

11 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I wouldn't do that trade only for Carlo for sure.  But if Boston added Trent Frederic I would be all over it.  Two guys that you need to win a cup that we don't even have in the organization that are still just entering their prime years.  When exactly did Jim Benning ever acquire a top 4 defensive RHD along with a 17-goal power forward who can drop the gloves with heavyweights and a guy even Ovechkin is scared of?

 

Tampa traded an entire draft classs for Tanner Jeannot.  A 1st, Podkolzin and Hoglander for Carlo and Frederic is probably a lopsided trade in Vancouver's favour and we would have to add...

Tampa is one of the best teams in the league, has been for years, has a constant flow of up and coming players they can plug in the lineup, and is absolutely cut throat with navigating the cap (see Stamkos right now). This isn't even apples and oranges, this comparing fruits to wine. We are hoping we can turn out fruit into wine, but right now these aren't even comparable. 

 

And it's the Guddy part, trading a high potential young player and picks for a mid 20s big defensemen. We've done this,.it didn't work. It looks like the Hronek trade will work for us, but we used currency we acquired to acquire something else. We didn't blow or allowance on snacks.

 

7 minutes ago, Huggy Bear said:

Agree here. Carlo is one concussion away from calling it a career, so don’t want us to push so many chips in for him.
 

The plan shared last offseason was playoffs this year, and contending in 3 years (25/26), when Petey and Quinn are in their primes.

 

IMHO, Podkolzin has (cost controlled) power forward potential, and McWard has top 4 D upside. 
 

Would love to see us give them each a year of development, and keep our 2024 1st pick to round out our prospects. 
 

In the meantime, we can keep scanning for opportunistic trades, and consider trading our 25/26 1sts if needed.
 

 

 

Well said. Bottom line is stick to the plan and get paid after. Zero negotiation.

Edited October 15, 2023 by MeanSeanBean

[PAVEL_BURE10]

I’ll say wait until atleast January to even think that 

[MeanSeanBean]

1 minute ago, PAVEL_BURE10 said:

I’ll say wait until atleast January to even think that 

Agreed. January 2025.

[Chicken.]

Please keep the 2024 1st… deep draft

[Odd.]

Stay the course. The last thing we need to do is get ourselves into another OEL situation. We are not good enough to be all in and sacrifice picks prospects etc.

 

Our salary cap situation makes it impossible anyways. We have a few bad contracts and less than ideal players in our line up. Beating the dysfunctional Oilers team suddenly doesn’t change that. We don’t have an overall good prospect pool, especially up front. We need to keep our 1sts and some of our later round picks and keep drafting some good talent. 
 

We also need to ride out some of our contracts. Next season, Beauvillier, Myers, Cole, Joshua, Blueger, etc will be off the books. More than likely, we keep Cole and Blueger, and the rest are released. This nee found cap space then needs to be used for Petey and Hronek, and then perhaps the rest of the cap can be used to go bargain hunting. That said, management is better off putting their pens into their pockets on July 1st. 
 

Over the next course of 2 years, Lekkerimaki, Willander, D-Petey, Raty, and hopefully one of our Abby guys are inserted into the line up on their cheap ELC’s to navigate through the OEL cap hit jump. It would be nice if we could add some more 1st round talent to that crop, similar to New Jersey. 

[Riddikulus]

"Going all in" means you are putting all of your chips in the middle of the table, if you are withholding a couple of pieces back then that isn't going all in. I think what the OP is describing is something that management is already actively doing which is looking for ways to get better.

 

We need a RHD with size not named Myers, folks have been suggesting trading for Cernak, Carlo, Manson etc, but the teams that have those players still have aspirations of competing. Unless something changes there its not really on the cards. The same goes for Pesce, Carolina is a cup contender, they aren't trading one of their best defenseman. We have to stay patient and wait for the right target, like Hronek.

[Nucker67]

Kuzmenko - Pettersson - Mikheyev

Di Giuseppe - Miller - Boeser

? - Suter - Lafferty

Joshua - Blueger - Studnicka

Hoglander

 

let Podz, Raty and Bains marinate for a while in Abby

 

Hughes - Hronek

Soucy - Cole

Wolanin - ?

Hirose - Juulsen

 

Trade Garland, Beauvillier and Myers for grit/size/toughness - middle 6 Winger and RD

 

[Elias Pettersson]

32 minutes ago, Huggy Bear said:

Agree here. Carlo is one concussion away from calling it a career, so don’t want us to push so many chips in for him.
 

The plan shared last offseason was playoffs this year, and contending in 3 years (25/26), when Petey and Quinn are in their primes.

 

IMHO, Podkolzin has (cost controlled) power forward potential, and McWard has top 4 D upside. 
 

Would love to see us give them each a year of development, and keep our 2024 1st pick to round out our prospects. 
 

In the meantime, we can keep scanning for opportunistic trades, and consider trading our 25/26 1sts if needed.
 

 

 

 

Crosby was also one concussion away from retiring like 15 years ago.  Carlo has been pretty consistent other than missing a chunk of the 2020-2021 season.  Other than that season, he has played in over 95% of all of the games of every other season.  Even last year he played 75 games.  Frederic is an animal, exactly the type of player you need to win a cup.  We won't be drafting a guy like him anytime soon.

 

At this point, Podkolzin's ceiling is probably a 3rd liner.  Is it possible he can be a two-way power forward in the top 6?  Maybe.  There is also a risk in keeping him and finding out.  There is risk both ways.  You can keep all your picks and prospects and find out later that they don't pan out, or you can trade the ones that are trending downwards for other players that fill positional needs.

 

New York Rangers are in this exact situation with Alexis Lafreniere.  I am sure they don't want to trade him.  But what do they do?  At some point a decision needs to be made...

Edited October 15, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[TheGuardian]

All this kind of post does is reinforce Allvin's conviction that this pathetic fanbase is so short sighted and desperate for a playoff game or two they would compromise the next 5 years even worse than they have already.

 

Why haven't some posters listened to what Rutherford said about the team. Need to be perfect almost. So far superior goaltending, perfect health with one exception so essentially 95% of the line up.

 

In a desperation move to trade Garland give away AAA prospects or future draft picks to a team that may be smart and then just buyout or retain 50% at the TDL, keep the prospects and picks and likely get a player that a very good team decided they can do without.

 

This post could be useful for Canuck management in gaging fan desperation or willingness to overlook the future. Sort of like how much blow back would there be to trading away another 1rst round pick or just more picks.

 

You know there is always a lot of talk about what fans don't know, maybe a test for them eh?

 

The advent of computer fantasy games has led to the removal of personalities and other considerations. Sort of like Pettersson is a Canuck and is owned by them until .... or any player on the team will always be better next year regardless of age or injury recovery.

 

Two games does not a season make

 

Besides cap space rules and this team has no desire to use cap space as a trade asset.

[aGENT]

49 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Morgaging the future further to buy high on players is a terrible idea. We've done that already. That's what the Hronek trade was. You can only do that so much.

 

To be fair, I'd definitely do another "Hronek" style trade again if it gets us another entering his prime aged, defensive RHD. I doubt we get so lucky, those guys usually aren't available. That said... everyone's favourite Miller to NYR trade target, Schneider, is a pending RFA this summer, due a raise on a cap strapped Rangers team, and stuck behind Fox and Trouba...

 

49 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Since you talked about Carlo. That 1st, Podkolzin, Hoglander trade or whatever it was up top is the worst. If this management made a trade like that I would lose all faith that this team is going to win a cup with Hughes and Petey.

 

Agree, Carlo while certainly a solid defensive RD, he isn't really 1st pair caliber and has had concussion issues. That's an overpay. There's also like zero reason for BOS to trade him...so kind of a non starter.

 

There are a few pending UFA's this summer that would fit the bill though....likely starting with Pesce, Zaitsev, Tanev, Lyubushkin, Hakanpaa, Colin Miller (though he's probably more offensively inclined than I'd prefer), or a lefty like Zadorov that plays right.

 

Any of those guys would make solid medium-long, bigger money (Pesce, Zaitsev) to short-medium lesser money (Tanev, Lyubushkin, Hakanpaa etc) sense to continue progressing the roster.

 

49 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Stick with the plan. The second this management group does something to show me they have lost the plot, I'm going to lump them into the same boat is Benning. The only way to make this work is to be calculated and consistent. That Carlo trade is Benning all over again. How much does that proposal remind you of Guddy trade? It's uncanny.

 

But yes, generally speaking, we should stick to the plan. We have cap shedding one way or another this summer (Myers, Beau, Garland becomes more tradeable with a rising cap) and we can keep filling in the player types/roles we need via trade/UFA, just like we did this summer, and continue to let kids develop and contribute as they become ready. Continue to evolve the roster to a contending team, one move at a time.

Edited October 15, 2023 by aGENT

[TheGuardian]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Crosby was also one concussion away from retiring like 15 years ago.  Carlo has been pretty consistent other than missing a chunk of the 2020-2021 season.  Other than that season, he has played in over 95% of all of the games of every other season.  Even last year he played 75 games.  Frederic is an animal, exactly the type of player you need to win a cup.  We won't be drafting a guy like him anytime soon.

Just abut all the playoff teams are getting bigger. Drafting a player like Carlo is more than difficult when the draft picks are traded away.

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

At this point, Podkolzin's ceiling is probably a 3rd liner.  Is it possible he can be a two-way power forward in the top 6?  Maybe.  There is also a risk in keeping him and finding out.  There is risk both ways.  You keep all your picks and prospects and find out later that they don't pan out, or you can trade the ones that are trending downwards for other players that fill positional needs.

 

What Podkolzin still has is that 1rst round #10 aura of possibility. Some other team may be willing to take a chance on getting younger. Power forwards, often like dmen take a few years to come around. Pod was always figured to be a complimentary player I m sure once has has the same coach and system to work under for a few years he will be adequate, maybe even a superior 3rd line player.

2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

New York Rangers are in this exact situation with Alexis Lafreniere.  I am sure they don't want to trade him.  But what do they do?  At some point a decision needs to be made...

NYR may be in a worse situation due to his draft position. His salary demands will be higher. They have two #1's that are still being brought along slowly..

But the cap will be the ultimate or big part of any trade discussions

[Huggy Bear]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Crosby was also one concussion away from retiring like 15 years ago.  Carlo has been pretty consistent other than missing a chunk of the 2020-2021 season.  Other than that season, he has played in over 95% of all of the games of every other season.  Even last year he played 75 games.  Frederic is an animal, exactly the type of player you need to win a cup.  We won't be drafting a guy like him anytime soon.

 

At this point, Podkolzin's ceiling is probably a 3rd liner.  Is it possible he can be a two-way power forward in the top 6?  Maybe.  There is also a risk in keeping him and finding out.  There is risk both ways.  You keep all your picks and prospects and find out later that they don't pan out, or you can trade the ones that are trending downwards for other players that fill positional needs.

 

New York Rangers are in this exact situation with Alexis Lafreniere.  I am sure they don't want to trade him.  But what do they do?  At some point a decision needs to be made...

True, but Carlos job demands regularly put him in harms way. We’d also be giving up significant assets to take that risk (vs. having that risk inherent in your drafted, franchise star player).

I’m not advocating we keep our own picks and prospects indiscriminately, but they represent our best chance at a balanced, competitive roster. We’ll need 1-2 players performing beyond their contracts, and sending out Hogs & Podz for established players works against that. Podz for Lafreniere, on the other hand, could make sense.

[canuck73_3]

TRADE ALL THE PICKS 

[Huggy Bear]

9 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

To be fair, I'd definitely do another "Hronek" style trade again if it gets us another entering his prime aged, defensive RHD. I doubt we get so lucky, those guys usually aren't available. That said... everyone's favourite Miller to NYR trade target, Schneider, is a pending RFA this summer, due a raise on a cap strapped Rangers team, and stuck behind Fox and Trouba...

 

 

Agree, Carlo while certainly a solid defensive RD, he isn't really 1st pair caliber and has had concussion issues. That's an overpay. There's also like zero reason for BOS to trade him...so kind of a non starter.

 

There are a few pending UFA's this summer that would fit the bill though....likely starting with Pesce, Zaitsev, Tanev, Lyubushkin, Hakanpaa, Colin Miller (though he's probably more offensively inclined than I'd prefer), or a lefty like Zadorov that plays right.

 

Any of those guys would make solid medium-long, bigger money (Pesce, Zaitsev) to short-medium lesser money (Tanev, Lyubushkin, Hakanpaa etc) sense to continue progressing the roster.

 

 

But yes, generally speaking, we should stick to the plan. We have cap shedding one way or another this summer (Myers, Beau, Garland becomes more tradeable with a rising cap) and we can keep filling in the player types/roles we need via trade/UFA, just like we did this summer, and continue to let kids develop and contribute as they become ready. Continue to evolve the roster to a contending team, one move at a time.

Great post. 
 

Sat Shah was pointing out (after Toews re-signed) that true top 4 dmen, under 30, just don’t become available. If we’re going to spend another 1st/significant futures, this is what we should save them for.

[Elias Pettersson]

18 minutes ago, Huggy Bear said:

True, but Carlos job demands regularly put him in harms way. We’d also be giving up significant assets to take that risk (vs. having that risk inherent in your drafted, franchise star player).

I’m not advocating we keep our own picks and prospects indiscriminately, but they represent our best chance at a balanced, competitive roster. We’ll need 1-2 players performing beyond their contracts, and sending out Hogs & Podz for established players works against that. Podz for Lafreniere, on the other hand, could make sense.

 

This is true my friend.  One other thing to note is that we may never have a Brandon Carlo in the organization.  When was the last time we drafted a nasty top 4 RHD?  Kevin Bieksa?  These types of players don't grow on trees.  Same with a guy like Frederic.  Which is why a guy like Tom Wilson can command such a huge contract and where a guy like Tanner Jeannot can be traded for an entire draft class.  

 

A guy like Lawson Crouse is a unicorn.  How many of them are in the NHL?  Less than 5?  You can't draft a guy like him, they don't come around very often and they are a perfect player to have in order to chase a cup.  I'd gladly trade a 1st, Podkolzin and another prospect for Lawson Crouse...

Edited October 15, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[joe-max]

2 hours ago, Canuck You said:

 

You don't deserve to be at the Cup parade!

 

 

No worries. If it's not gonna go through Finland, I won't be there...

[Huggy Bear]

17 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

This is true my friend.  One other thing to note is that we may never have a Brandon Carlo in the organization.  When was the last time we drafted a nasty top 4 RHD?  Kevin Bieksa?  These types of players don't grow on trees.  Same with a guy like Frederic.  Which is why a guy like Tom Wilson can command such a huge contract and where a guy like Tanner Jeannot can be traded for an entire draft class.  

 

A guy like Lawson Crouse is a unicorn.  How many of them are in the NHL?  Less than 5?  You can't draft a guy like him, they don't come around very often and they are a perfect player to have in order to chase a cup.  I'd galdly trade a 1st, Podkolzin and another prospect for Lawson Crouse...

All good points. Both positions are in scarce supply.

 

Cole (who’s physical/effective, if not nasty) has been a revelation in our top 4. We’ve missed that kind of presence since prime Edler. Having a younger RHD version of him, that plays with an edge, is exactly what we need to round out our core.

 

Same thing with a power forward with skill. Crouse or Frederic would be ideal, but I think we have time to leverage our pro scouting to find the next one vs. pay for an established player.

 

Who shows signs of playing with that edge, that could still take another step with the right chemistry?
 

Lyubushkin and Trenin are both headed toward UFA, and likely on non-playoff teams. Would love to get ahead on a trade for players like that.

 

This is also likely what they had in mind for Comtois. An inconsistent 24 yo with power forward potential.

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Huggy Bear
Spelling & Comtois example

[aGENT]

16 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

This is true my friend.  One other thing to note is that we may never have a Brandon Carlo in the organization.  When was the last time we drafted a nasty top 4 RHD?  Kevin Bieksa?  These types of players don't grow on trees.  Same with a guy like Frederic.  Which is why a guy like Tom Wilson can command such a huge contract and where a guy like Tanner Jeannot can be traded for an entire draft class.  

 

A guy like Lawson Crouse is a unicorn.  How many of them are in the NHL?  Less than 5?  You can't draft a guy like him, they don't come around very often and they are a perfect player to have in order to chase a cup.  I'd galdly trade a 1st, Podkolzin and another prospect for Lawson Crouse...

 

I wish ARZ wasn't trying to start becoming competitive (reportedly) this season. If they were still attempting to rebuild and save cash, we could have sent them post-bonus Myers, $1m retained + a mid pick  and a B prospect for Crouse and saved them $16.5m over 4 years 

[aGENT]

7 minutes ago, Huggy Bear said:

Lyubushkin and Trenin are both headed toward UFA, and likely on non-playoff teams. Would love to get ahead on a trade for players like that.

 

Man I'd be thrilled if we could get Trenin back as part of the return for Garland with NSH reportedly interested. Sissons would be fine too. 

 

Lyubushkin's a solid short-mid term RD target that shouldn't cost tonnes to extend. Probably good enough to play with Hughes, but not so good (or expensive) that he could slide down to 3rd pair eventually when/if Willander's ready in a few years.

 

[Huggy Bear]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

Man I'd be thrilled if we could get Trenin back as part of the return for Garland with NSH reportedly interested. Sissons would be fine too. 

 

Lyubushkin's a solid short-mid term RD target that shouldn't cost tonnes to extend. Probably good enough to play with Hughes, but not so good (or expensive) that he could slide down to 3rd pair eventually when/if Willander's ready in a few years.

 

Nashville wants to maintain their ‘Smashville’ identity, so not sure how willing they’d be to move Trenin. They’ve been rumoured to want to move on from Fabbro for awhile, which is supported by the 1 year extension.

 

Fabbro ($2.5M) & Trenin ($1.7M)

 

for

 

Garland, and?

 

As for Lyubushkin, I’m not sure if he has the smarts to click with Hughes, but he has speed, hits, and focuses on defence. Lots for Foote & Gonchar to work on there within our system.