Ovi watch/prediction thread.

[Dumb Nuck]

5 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Will Ovie ever score again? 

One time the answer will be no.

[AnthonyG]

On 1/9/2024 at 7:01 AM, sassbs said:

People will say ovi is better but imo he isn’t.  Gretzky did all that he did in an era where elbows to the head was ok and the defencemen were there to hurt you. The hatchers, prongers, Stevens wanted to murder you! The clutch and grab, illegal hits and so on…. 
imagine Gretzky in todays nhl with todays training regiment.  Or Gretzky using hockey sticks not made of wood!  Gretzky pregame meal was a coke and 2 hotdogs !! 

Gretzky was also playing in a much much higher scoring era.

Blocked shots,defence, goaltending style/athleticism/gear is nothing like it is today. In a league where they are constantly trying to create more and more scoring, its hard to argue that Ovi isnt the greatest goal scorer of all time.

The shooting % back then was much higher. If Gretzky had his shooting % drop by 2% He would lose 130 goals. 

17% is exceptionally high in todays game. There were countless guys with  shooting% over 15. Ovi is at 12.8% which is high in todays day and age. The league average is 10%.

[Elias Pettersson]

Will Ovi ever score again? 

[IBatch]

On 1/19/2024 at 6:35 PM, AnthonyG said:

Gretzky was also playing in a much much higher scoring era.

Blocked shots,defence, goaltending style/athleticism/gear is nothing like it is today. In a league where they are constantly trying to create more and more scoring, its hard to argue that Ovi isnt the greatest goal scorer of all time.

The shooting % back then was much higher. If Gretzky had his shooting % drop by 2% He would lose 130 goals. 

17% is exceptionally high in todays game. There were countless guys with  shooting% over 15. Ovi is at 12.8% which is high in todays day and age. The league average is 10%.

lol.  Shooting percentage isn't a gauge to be used from era to era.   Save percentage maybe a bit yes.   .903 versus .888 isn't that drastic.   Ovi has ALWAYs been a high volume shooter, most of his shots, don't go in.   Led, at, or near the top, his entire career.    Guys are in worse shape now in a lot of cases, then they were in the 80's and 90's.   But you wouldn't know that.   Tochett calling them out.   When we were kids, we'd climb mountains for FUN.   At 5-7 years old and up.   Not on trails, through the bush and up we'd go.   All summer long.   And lived outside playing whatever sport of physical activity until it got dark and had to come in.   That's been gone for a couple generations now. 

 

Gretzky's shooting percentage was sick, because of how he played the game.   How he'd fake out goalies.   And he didn't shoot the puck nearly as often,  usually it was a pass he was looking for.    Bossy and Hull's were snipers, same goes for Ovi.   Gretzky could also snipe with the best of them.    Don't think anyone who wasn't there, should be too vocal about it, not without first watching 20-30 hours of video anyways.    It's also worth noting (again), Gretzky suffered some pretty bad shoulder, neck and back injuries.   The shoulder one (late 80's) effected his shot, wasn't nearly as hard after. 

 

Games sped way up.   There Ludwig, Hatcher, Murzyn's were replaced with smaller more skilled players.   No red-line, removed a pass.   Still haven't seen a faster group of guys in an all-star game, then when a 17 year old vet named Gartner set a record.   Back then you had to qualify to get into the final heats.    13.5 was basically the bar.   Hedican, who really wasn't a fast fast guy back then, made the cut.   Federov, Bure...and there were a lot Hagelin types around too. 
 

If you want to go by save percentage (also goofy...sure fun watching folks try and explain why it's going down significantly now ... maybe, just maybe it's because the skill level is finally catching up to expansion?), then that a reduction worth considering.    Then watch Coco.   It's not like there weren't sick goalies back then.   Roy was also sick right from the start.   Was he better his final two seasons?  Of course he wasn't.   But his save percentage went from .902ish up to .922plus.    Why do you think, that is?  Athleticism!    Wow.   Try making saves standing up.    And with leather pads that gain up to 20lbs.    The gear is way better, and the goalies are way bigger.    Furh was one of the most gifted athletes the sport has ever had.   Luongo was inspired by him.    Roy changed the way the game was played (and not the first to do the butterfly either, that was Hall). 

 

Mario was also something.    Ovi is great no doubt too.   I know who'd I'd pick first second and third.    Having watched them all play.   If one goal was on the line.  

Edited January 23 by IBatch

[AnthonyG]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

lol.  Shooting percentage isn't a gauge to be used from era to era.   Save percentage maybe a bit yes.   .903 versus .888 isn't that drastic.   Ovi has ALWAYs been a high volume shooter, most of his shots, don't go in.   Led, at, or near the top, his entire career.    Guys are in worse shape now in a lot of cases, then they were in the 80's and 90's.   But you wouldn't know that.   Tochett calling them out.   When we were kids, we'd climb mountains for FUN.   At 5-7 years old and up.   Not on trails, through the bush and up we'd go.   All summer long.   And lived outside playing whatever sport of physical activity until it got dark and had to come in.   That's been gone for a couple generations now. 

 

Gretzky's shooting percentage was sick, because of how he played the game.   How he'd fake out goalies.   And he didn't shoot the puck nearly as often,  usually it was a pass he was looking for.    Bossy and Hull's were snipers, same goes for Ovi.   Gretzky could also snipe with the best of them.    Don't think anyone who wasn't there, should be too vocal about it, not without first watching 20-30 hours of video anyways.    It's also worth noting (again), Gretzky suffered some pretty bad shoulder, neck and back injuries.   The shoulder one (late 80's) effected his shot, wasn't nearly as hard after. 

 

Games sped way up.   There Ludwig, Hatcher, Murzyn's were replaced with smaller more skilled players.   No red-line, removed a pass.   Still haven't seen a faster group of guys in an all-star game, then when a 17 year old vet named Gartner set a record.   Back then you had to qualify to get into the final heats.    13.5 was basically the bar.   Hedican, who really wasn't a fast fast guy back then, made the cut.   Federov, Bure...and there were a lot Hagelin types around too. 
 

If you want to go by save percentage (also goofy...sure fun watching folks try and explain why it's going down significantly now ... maybe, just maybe it's because the skill level is finally catching up to expansion?), then that a reduction worth considering.    Then watch Coco.   It's not like there weren't sick goalies back then.   Roy was also sick right from the start.   Was he better his final two seasons?  Of course he wasn't.   But his save percentage went from .902ish up to .922plus.    Why do you think, that is?  Athleticism!    Wow.   Try making saves standing up.    And with leather pads that gain up to 20lbs.    The gear is way better, and the goalies are way bigger.    Furh was one of the most gifted athletes the sport has ever had.   Luongo was inspired by him.    Roy changed the way the game was played (and not the first to do the butterfly either, that was Hall). 

 

Mario was also something.    Ovi is great no doubt too.   I know who'd I'd pick first second and third.    Having watched them all play.   If one goal was on the line.  

Lmao You do realize shooting % goes hand in hand with sv% right?

 

1.5% increase in sv% = 76.32

 

bye bye Gretzky’s record last year.

 

Gretzky would not have anything remotely close to a 17% shooting% in todays game.

His stats are inflated, but that does not take away him being the greatest player. It’s neck and neck between him and Crosby imo and I fucking hated Crosby, but as his career has gone on I’ve gained a tremendous amount of respect for him.

 

 

From ‘81-‘86 the highest sv% over that span of hockey was .892. Thats a fuckin joke dude. Not a single goalie averaged over .900. Not one. You’re .888 is a joke when you stack it up to

The last 5 years avg sv% over 23 goalies during that span had higher avg sv% than the best goalie in the peak 80s. 22 goalies over .900 and most over .910.

 

now for shooting % during that time

Over 300GP

Kurri 23.8% led all shooters during that time period.

Tom Fergus a better sniper than Ovi?

Mel Bridgman? Bernie Federko? Bengt-Ake Gustafsson? Jim Fox?

Ilkka Sinisalo?….  Come on man these guys are all over 16% and that puts them waaaaay high in our todays shooting % yet you’ve never heard of them.

 

just for the record I grew up climing rocks/small mountains catching snakes and lizards and trekking through bushes and doing nature hikes my entire child hood… doesnt dismiss what athletes do today to get into shape and also their diets are far more regimented than the beer, cocaine, hard liquor and pub food that the NHL used to thrive off of back in the day. You seem to easily dismiss todays fitness and diet and act like the past was superior, if so, why did it change?

 

 

[IBatch]

13 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Lmao You do realize shooting % goes hand in hand with sv% right?

 

1.5% increase in sv% = 76.32

 

bye bye Gretzky’s record last year.

 

Gretzky would not have anything remotely close to a 17% shooting% in todays game.

His stats are inflated, but that does not take away him being the greatest player. It’s neck and neck between him and Crosby imo and I fucking hated Crosby, but as his career has gone on I’ve gained a tremendous amount of respect for him.

 

 

From ‘81-‘86 the highest sv% over that span of hockey was .892. Thats a fuckin joke dude. Not a single goalie averaged over .900. Not one. You’re .888 is a joke when you stack it up to

The last 5 years avg sv% over 23 goalies during that span had higher avg sv% than the best goalie in the peak 80s. 22 goalies over .900 and most over .910.

 

now for shooting % during that time

Over 300GP

Kurri 23.8% led all shooters during that time period.

Tom Fergus a better sniper than Ovi?

Mel Bridgman? Bernie Federko? Bengt-Ake Gustafsson? Jim Fox?

Ilkka Sinisalo?….  Come on man these guys are all over 16% and that puts them waaaaay high in our todays shooting % yet you’ve never heard of them.

 

just for the record I grew up climing rocks/small mountains catching snakes and lizards and trekking through bushes and doing nature hikes my entire child hood… doesnt dismiss what athletes do today to get into shape and also their diets are far more regimented than the beer, cocaine, hard liquor and pub food that the NHL used to thrive off of back in the day. You seem to easily dismiss todays fitness and diet and act like the past was superior, if so, why did it change?

 

 

I've said it before, and will say it again, i'm glad folks got to see Ovi play.   Invalidating others achievements is kind of silly.   Based on numbers.   Ovi didn't have to play back then.     Our very own Sedins couldn't cut it until the rules changed.    Hull senior played in a six team league.    Same with Howe.    Both those guys, well,  nobody looks like they do these days.    One day, 30 years from now, people will who never watched either Crosby or Ovi play, will also be playing saying they weren't so great.    Ovi to me, isn't much different than Brett Hull aside from his longevity. 

Edited January 23 by IBatch

[AnthonyG]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

I've said it before, and will say it again, i'm glad folks got to see Ovi play.   Invalidating others achievements is kind of silly.   Based on numbers.   Ovi didn't have to play back then.   

Can you read?

i said Gretzky is the greatest. 
but what Ovi has accomplished thus far is incredible and more impressive considering scoring is much lower for a plethora of reasons. 
you are dismissing what he has done in todays day and age and holding onto your old school memories. I never once dismissed Gretzky as being one of the greatest of all time to play the game but you need to factor in era’s and make adjustments to compare in fairly. Either that or just stick to Gretzky was the greatest player of his era, Crosby of his and Ovi the greatest goal scorer of his. 

[Kevin Biestra]

8 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

now for shooting % during that time

Over 300GP

Kurri 23.8% led all shooters during that time period.

Tom Fergus a better sniper than Ovi?

Mel Bridgman? Bernie Federko? Bengt-Ake Gustafsson? Jim Fox?

Ilkka Sinisalo?….  Come on man these guys are all over 16% and that puts them waaaaay high in our todays shooting % yet you’ve never heard of them.

 

Never heard of Bernie Federko?  He's in the Hall of Fame.  Mel Bridgman was an excellent player and all of Fergus, Sinisalo, Fox and Gustafsson had pretty decent peaks.  Jim Fox was one of LA's most reliable forwards for a decade.

[AnthonyG]

55 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Never heard of Bernie Federko?  He's in the Hall of Fame.  Mel Bridgman was an excellent player and all of Fergus, Sinisalo, Fox and Gustafsson had pretty decent peaks.  Jim Fox was one of LA's most reliable forwards for a decade.

Weird. Not even top 50 all time, yet their shooting % is much higher than Ovi’s and also around the same shooting % as Gretzky.
 

 

My point is that shooting % was much higher and in relation to that sv% was lower back then. Yet @IBatch has a hard time believing that. 
 

[Kevin Biestra]

15 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Weird. Not even top 50 all time, yet their shooting % is much higher than Ovi’s and also around the same shooting % as Gretzky.
 

My point is that shooting % was much higher and in relation to that sv% was lower back then. Yet @IBatch has a hard time believing that.

 

I don't think it can be denied that it's a little harder to score on a goalie who is padded up until he looks like Optimus Prime than a dude basically in baseball backcatcher equipment but at the same time Gretzky had a stick that is almost the equivalent of wooden tennis rackets back in the day compared to modern sticks and power play rules were changed literally to keep Gretzky from scoring as much.  Equipment and some techniques were basically an escalating arms race between goalies and forwards but talent was talent regardless of the decade.

 

There are also some players who just excel in one area of the game compared to the rest of it.  A quick and accurate shot is one of those areas.  Craig Ludwig kind of specialized in blocking shots.  Petr Klima is still one of the NHL's all time great stickhandlers and one on one wizards against another player but never really broke out past the 65 points in a season range.  Mason Raymond was fast...and that was kind of about it.  I don't remember all that much about Ilkka Sinisalo from his playing days other than him being a good top six forward for the Flyers who was part of their two runs to Cup final but his shot might have been his bread and butter as a player.

 

Bridgman was a 1st overall pick and well respected around the league.  He was on the Canucks for their 1989 series against the Flames.  Anyone watching hockey in the 70s or 80s definitely heard of Bridgman, even if he may have mostly slipped their mind since.

 

 

Edited January 24 by Kevin Biestra

[Elias Pettersson]

10 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Lmao You do realize shooting % goes hand in hand with sv% right?

 

1.5% increase in sv% = 76.32

 

bye bye Gretzky’s record last year.

 

Gretzky would not have anything remotely close to a 17% shooting% in todays game.

His stats are inflated, but that does not take away him being the greatest player. It’s neck and neck between him and Crosby imo and I fucking hated Crosby, but as his career has gone on I’ve gained a tremendous amount of respect for him.

 

 

From ‘81-‘86 the highest sv% over that span of hockey was .892. Thats a fuckin joke dude. Not a single goalie averaged over .900. Not one. You’re .888 is a joke when you stack it up to

The last 5 years avg sv% over 23 goalies during that span had higher avg sv% than the best goalie in the peak 80s. 22 goalies over .900 and most over .910.

 

now for shooting % during that time

Over 300GP

Kurri 23.8% led all shooters during that time period.

Tom Fergus a better sniper than Ovi?

Mel Bridgman? Bernie Federko? Bengt-Ake Gustafsson? Jim Fox?

Ilkka Sinisalo?….  Come on man these guys are all over 16% and that puts them waaaaay high in our todays shooting % yet you’ve never heard of them.

 

just for the record I grew up climing rocks/small mountains catching snakes and lizards and trekking through bushes and doing nature hikes my entire child hood… doesnt dismiss what athletes do today to get into shape and also their diets are far more regimented than the beer, cocaine, hard liquor and pub food that the NHL used to thrive off of back in the day. You seem to easily dismiss todays fitness and diet and act like the past was superior, if so, why did it change?

 

 

You can’t be serious that Crosby and Gretzky are neck and neck for best player ever?  Is this satire?  
 

The only player who can ever be considered on Gretzky’s level is Mario Lemieux. Crosby is at least 1 tier down from both of them. 
 

And before you say that Gretzky played in the 80’s when the goalies were 5 foot nothing, Wayne Gretzky not only had the most points in the 1980’s, but he also had the most career points ever in the 1990’s as well. Gretzky literally dominated in two different decades.

[Kevin Biestra]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

You can’t be serious that Crosby and Gretzky are neck and neck for best player ever?  Is this satire?  
 

The only player who can ever be considered on Gretzky’s level is Mario Lemieux. Crosby is at least 1 tier down from both of them. 
 

And before you say that Gretzky played in the 80’s when the goalies were 5 foot nothing, Wayne Gretzky not only had the most points in the 1980’s, but he also had the most career points ever in the 1990’s as well. Gretzky literally dominated in two different decades.

 

I think Orr is in that tier with Lemieux and a stone's throw from Gretzky.  Then you've got Coffey, Howe, etc.  Crosby would be doing well for himself to be included in that tier.  Does Crosby really separate himself from Phil Esposito, Steve Yzerman etc.  Possibly...but I definitely don't have him in a two horse race with Gretzky, as great as Crosby has been.

[Elias Pettersson]

Back to the thread…

 

Will Ovi ever score again? 

[Elias Pettersson]

2 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I think Orr is in that tier with Lemieux and a stone's throw from Gretzky.  Then you've got Coffey, Howe, etc.  Crosby would be doing well for himself to be included in that tier.  Does Crosby really separate himself from Phil Esposito, Steve Yzerman etc.  Possibly...but I definitely don't have him in a two horse race with Gretzky, as great as Crosby has been.

Yes Orr for sure. I was referring to the forwards but overall you have Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr on one tier. And then others drop to the second tier. 
 

You could make an argument that Yzerman was better than Crosby. He has everything that Crosby has. Plus he was a top defensive player when he got older and won the Selke. But I would probably put Crosby ahead of him and in that second tier below the three greatest players ever. 

[AnthonyG]

9 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

You can’t be serious that Crosby and Gretzky are neck and neck for best player ever?  Is this satire?  
 

The only player who can ever be considered on Gretzky’s level is Mario Lemieux. Crosby is at least 1 tier down from both of them. 
 

And before you say that Gretzky played in the 80’s when the goalies were 5 foot nothing, Wayne Gretzky not only had the most points in the 1980’s, but he also had the most career points ever in the 1990’s as well. Gretzky literally dominated in two different decades.

And what Sidney Crosby is doing today is comparable to Gretzky. Sid has dominated and produced OVER a point a game his ENTIRE career in a much harder era to score in than Gretzky.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, AnthonyG said:

And what Sidney Crosby is doing today is comparable to Gretzky. Sid has dominated and produced OVER a point a game his ENTIRE career in a much harder era to score in than Gretzky.

Difficult to compare players across era’s. Gretzky dominated so much in his era that in hockey pools he was divided by goals or assists. 
Plus, of course, there’s the difference in equipment to consider. Skate, stick, gear, and ice tech are much improved in the Crosby era, especially the latter part. 

[IBatch]

.904 last year.   

 

Explain to me, how save percentages ballooned in the dead puck era.   Was Mike Vernon at his very best in Florida just before retirement?   Why did Roy's go from .900ish, all the way to .920 (and beyond).

 

And why had save percentages gone way down, back to well pretty much normal...The goalies are still great.   You don't need many of them to fill the spots.   Just like any era.  

 

Maybe, just maybe, the talent level is finally catching up.   The 2000's were awful compared to the 80's and 90's.   Lidstrom couldn't win a Norris for a reason until he was 30.    It got better for sure.   That's my point.   Im not naive to equipment changes.  Also not naive thinking today's athletes have better "athleticism" and especially "are in better shape" is naive.    

 

You were throwing shade.   I'm trying to explain something about those era's.   The talent was unbelievable.   If the stars in their 30's make it awfully hard for the next group of stars in their 20's, it says enough.   You can trace that back as far as you'd like too.    It was actually 1981, the highes scoring year (without checking, maybe it was 1982), the 70's were just as high flying.    The league expanded, and bringing in European talent kept the talent up.   Then the USSR and kept it going into the 90's ... eventually there wasn't anyone else to bring in, but they kept expanding anyways.   The trap was created.   The refs let interference, clutching and grabbing go unpenalized, goalie equipment ballooned (google Garth Snowman if your not sure that that's about) which made things worse and goalies who played in the 80's with sub .900 sp, got a huge boost.   

 

Why is that?  Explain it to me in a different way, i'm all ears.   Why did Roy, on great MTL teams (cup winning plus another  final in the 80's ),  sp climb well past his peak prime (1992-93 playoffs).    Why did Vernon have such a spike in Florida almost done.    Others too.   

 

And why has the average save percentage, now .904, and last year we saw scoring back to 1996-97 levels?     Could it just be, that the league has more talent than it has seen ... well since 96-97?   To me that's a simpler reason.   

Edited January 24 by IBatch

[AnthonyG]

9 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I don't think it can be denied that it's a little harder to score on a goalie who is padded up until he looks like Optimus Prime than a dude basically in baseball backcatcher equipment but at the same time Gretzky had a stick that is almost the equivalent of wooden tennis rackets back in the day compared to modern sticks and power play rules were changed literally to keep Gretzky from scoring as much.  Equipment and some techniques were basically an escalating arms race between goalies and forwards but talent was talent regardless of the decade.

 

There are also some players who just excel in one area of the game compared to the rest of it.  A quick and accurate shot is one of those areas.  Craig Ludwig kind of specialized in blocking shots.  Petr Klima is still one of the NHL's all time great stickhandlers and one on one wizards against another player but never really broke out past the 65 points in a season range.  Mason Raymond was fast...and that was kind of about it.  I don't remember all that much about Ilkka Sinisalo from his playing days other than him being a good top six forward for the Flyers who was part of their two runs to Cup final but his shot might have been his bread and butter as a player.

 

Bridgman was a 1st overall pick and well respected around the league.  He was on the Canucks for their 1989 series against the Flames.  Anyone watching hockey in the 70s or 80s definitely heard of Bridgman, even if he may have mostly slipped their mind since.

 

 

The point is are names that are not in the record book, better shooters/goal scorers than Ovechkin? How is it guys with wooden twigs have a higher shooting% than guys today? Is this league just trash and reluctant to score? Or is it that the players from before the  benefit from weaker goaltending and much less shot blocks?

 

 

[AnthonyG]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Difficult to compare players across era’s. Gretzky dominated so much in his era that in hockey pools he was divided by goals or assists. 
Plus, of course, there’s the difference in equipment to consider. Skate, stick, gear, and ice tech are much improved in the Crosby era, especially the latter part. 

To me Crosby IS Gretzky in todays game. 
 

I fuckin hated Crosby forever, but as his career has gone on, there is no more denying just how fuckin good he is.

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

And what Sidney Crosby is doing today is comparable to Gretzky. Sid has dominated and produced OVER a point a game his ENTIRE career in a much harder era to score in than Gretzky.

You can't be serious?  

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

To me Crosby IS Gretzky in todays game. 
 

I fuckin hated Crosby forever, but as his career has gone on, there is no more denying just how fuckin good he is.

Crosby is great. Top 10 all time player. But he’s not Gretzky and he would agree. Crosby would be closer to a prime (Oiler) Messier. 

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

You can't be serious?  

 

Anthony literally never even watched Gretzky play for one minute.  You can tell by his posts.  I feel sorry for the kids today who never got to experience the greatness of both Wayne and Mario.  When somebody of this generation tells me that Crosby is the equivalent to Gretzky I just smile to myself and laugh a bit and thank God that I was able to watch that greatness that we will never see in hockey again...

[Alflives]

20 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Lmao You do realize shooting % goes hand in hand with sv% right?

 

1.5% increase in sv% = 76.32

 

bye bye Gretzky’s record last year.

 

Gretzky would not have anything remotely close to a 17% shooting% in todays game.

His stats are inflated, but that does not take away him being the greatest player. It’s neck and neck between him and Crosby imo and I fucking hated Crosby, but as his career has gone on I’ve gained a tremendous amount of respect for him.

 

 

From ‘81-‘86 the highest sv% over that span of hockey was .892. Thats a fuckin joke dude. Not a single goalie averaged over .900. Not one. You’re .888 is a joke when you stack it up to

The last 5 years avg sv% over 23 goalies during that span had higher avg sv% than the best goalie in the peak 80s. 22 goalies over .900 and most over .910.

 

now for shooting % during that time

Over 300GP

Kurri 23.8% led all shooters during that time period.

Tom Fergus a better sniper than Ovi?

Mel Bridgman? Bernie Federko? Bengt-Ake Gustafsson? Jim Fox?

Ilkka Sinisalo?….  Come on man these guys are all over 16% and that puts them waaaaay high in our todays shooting % yet you’ve never heard of them.

 

just for the record I grew up climing rocks/small mountains catching snakes and lizards and trekking through bushes and doing nature hikes my entire child hood… doesnt dismiss what athletes do today to get into shape and also their diets are far more regimented than the beer, cocaine, hard liquor and pub food that the NHL used to thrive off of back in the day. You seem to easily dismiss todays fitness and diet and act like the past was superior, if so, why did it change?

 

 

I think you’re just looking at numbers while failing to consider equipment. Goalie equipment is far different years ago. As it evolved so has the way the goalies are able to play. The pads used to absorb water and become heavier as the game went on. There was far less protection. But that was balanced by shooters using wooden sticks on choppy (soft) ice. Fewer guys had enough hand and wrist strength to shoot the puck. 

[IBatch]

22 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

To me Crosby IS Gretzky in todays game. 
 

I fuckin hated Crosby forever, but as his career has gone on, there is no more denying just how fuckin good he is.

He wasn't dominating.   If he was, he'd have a massive trophy case, and a string of first all-star berths which he doesn't have.    Think Yzerman, Dionne,  and maybe a few others like prime Messier and Sakic even.   In the end, he's got a chance to pass all those guys.    The only guy that came close, was Mario.    And even his best years, didn't match up.   And those PIT teams were every bit as stacked,  Mario's best years that is.    LA wasn't close to as stacked. 

 

Edit: Just checked, Crosby has 4 berths.   First string.   Against whom exactly?  Malkin, Backstrom, H. Sedin, Thornton.

 

Compared to Yzerman, Stastny, Hawerchuk, Mario,  Savard, Messier,  Dionne, Federko,  Trottier, Gilmour,  Sakic, Sundin, Federov, Joe New, Modano and I'm sure I missed a few, or yeah Francis. 

 

Not the same man.   

Edited January 24 by IBatch

[Elias Pettersson]

19 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

And what Sidney Crosby is doing today is comparable to Gretzky. Sid has dominated and produced OVER a point a game his ENTIRE career in a much harder era to score in than Gretzky.

 

I know that you never watched Gretzky play, I can tell by this post.  I feel sad that you weren't able to see that greatness for yourself.  If you think that what Crosby has done is similar to what Gretzky did, then I can't really help you.  Gretzky was so dominant that they literally had to change the rules of the game because of him.  Did you know that?  Gretzky was so dominant that in hockey pools they had to split up his goals and assists because it wasn't fair.  And if you had taken only his assists you would have had the most point totals for a player on 5 separate occasions.  Did you know that?  These are things that never happened with Crosby.

 

Also, you can't just google stats and watch some YouTube videos to make a conclusion that Crosby is equal to Gretzky.  You need to watch entire games of the Great One literally dominating the entire game from start to finish.  How many full NHL games have you watched with Gretzky when he played for the Oilers?  Be honest.  Zero?  Probably.  Gretzky literally dominated games by himself.  It was incredible to watch.  Sorry that you missed out.

 

I have watched both Gretzky and Crosby's entire careers.  Crosby is a great player.  Top 10 all time IMO.  But he is at least one level below Wayne and Mario.  If you don't believe me, ask Crosby himself.  I know exactly what he would tell you...