Ovi watch/prediction thread.

[Elias Pettersson]

14 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Crosby is great. Top 10 all time player. But he’s not Gretzky and he would agree. Crosby would be closer to a prime (Oiler) Messier. 

 

Crosby is the equivalent of Messier and Yzerman.  I would put Crosby ahead of both but they are all in that same tier.  Wayne and Mario are a tier above those guys, maybe even two...

[IBatch]

8 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Crosby is the equivalent of Messier and Yzerman.  I would put Crosby ahead of both but they are all in that same tier.  Wayne and Mario are a tier above those guys, maybe even two...

I'd add Sakic too.   He gets overlooked.   37 and put up 100 points, and played through the entire dead puck era, Yzerman almost did too though.   That's the tier Crosby is in right now.    Also know that Dionne never won much of anything, but that guy was incredible.   Actually if anyone who's ever played, Crosby reminds me most of Dionne (the way they play).    Both smaller guys, both incredible hockey IQ, and hard to get the puck off their stick, both amazing hands. 

 

Messier was a totally different animal.   Sucked he fell off a cliff when we got him.   At 34 and 35, didn't look at all like he was done.   We were already into the dead puck era for a couple years (93-94 truly was the line, have mags where the clutching and grabbing that was exasperated by adding Ottawa and SJ, was been complained about heavily back in 91-92...), Messier just had two typical Messier seasons, close to 50 goals and 100 points.   

 

As for Crosby, he's going to possibly go down as number 3 all-time center.   Part of that, will surely have to do with the age of those ranking though.    IF this was his last season, not enough to pass Yzerman, and what he did in 2002, on one leg.    I'm sure i'm probably missing someone too.    But he's exactly what the term generational is made for.     Yzerman was also generational,  and so was Sakic.    Gretzky and later Mario, have a lot do, with that high scoring era.  

 

Funny thing though, it was also high scoring in the 70's.   And peaked around 1981. 

Edited January 24 by IBatch

[Alflives]

For OV I see him as a Brett Hull (spot shooter) who had the benefit of better stick tech. OV did add a power forward game when motivated. 

[AnthonyG]

20 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

Anthony literally never even watched Gretzky play for one minute.  You can tell by his posts.  I feel sorry for the kids today who never got to experience the greatness of both Wayne and Mario.  When somebody of this generation tells me that Crosby is the equivalent to Gretzky I just smile to myself and laugh a bit and thank God that I was able to watch that greatness that we will never see in hockey again...

Lmfao buddy its obvious you’ve never played puck.

 

 

LMAO factor in sv% highly inflated sh% to each and every single point Gretzky picked, those totals are gunna drop drastically if he played today.

[AnthonyG]

29 minutes ago, IBatch said:

You can't be serious?  

Coming from the guy who thinks Gretzky would easily put up 200pts in todays game??? Lmao that was you right? Easy 90 goals 200pts in a league where McDavid has skill at speeds never seen before. Yea. Fuckin. Right.

 

Try a dose of reality. Hockey players didnt get shittier after Gretzky, goaltending and defence got better.

[Elias Pettersson]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I'd add Sakic too.   He gets overlooked.   37 and put up 100 points, and played through the entire dead puck era, Yzerman almost did too though.   That's the tier Crosby is in right now.    Also know that Dionne never won much of anything, but that guy was incredible.   Actually if anyone who's ever played, Crosby reminds me most of Dionne.    Both smaller guys, both incredible hockey IQ, and hard to get the puck off their stick, both amazing hands. 

 

I loved Joe Sakic.  I would take Yzerman and Messier over him though.  But you are right, Joe is also in that tier.  Even a guy like Ron Francis as well.  I don't think Pittsburgh wins those cups without Francis.

 

But in Anthony's defence, I would put Crosby ahead of all of those guys and #1 in my second tier.  My first tier is Wayne, Mario, Orr and Howe.  So, Crosby might be the #5 all time player in NHL history when he is done.  Jagr would be a close #6 I think....

[IBatch]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

For OV I see him as a Brett Hull (spot shooter) who had the benefit of better stick tech. OV did add a power forward game when motivated. 

For half a decade, Hull was pacing the Great One, and Mario.   He was one of the most vocal players about the clutching and grabbing.   It seriously hurt his game.   Roenick was another guy.   

Edited January 24 by IBatch

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I loved Joe Sakic.  I would take Yzerman and Messier over him though.  But you are right, Joe is also in that tier.  Even a guy like Ron Francis as well.  I don't think Pittsburgh wins those cups without Francis.

 

But in Anthony's defence, I would put Crosby ahead of all of those guys and #1 in my second tier.  My first tier is Wayne, Mario, Orr and Howe.  So, Crosby might be the #5 all time player in NHL history when he is done.  Jagr would be a close #6 I think....

Pittsburgh added an older Trottier too. Trottier, in his prime, was another guy in that second tier or greatest forwards. Add in the great D and (IMHAO) Crosby is in the 6-10 range if the greatest to play list. OV is for sure outside of the top 10. And as great a goal scorer as OV was he wouldn’t be in my top 20 greatest players. 

[Elias Pettersson]

3 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Lmfao buddy its obvious you’ve never played puck.

 

 

LMAO factor in sv% highly inflated sh% to each and every single point Gretzky picked, those totals are gunna drop drastically if he played today.

 

Again with the google stats.  Just admit, you never even watched Gretzky play for one minute.  It's okay.  I know you aren't old enough to have watched his greatness so arguing over google stats and Youtube videos is pretty pointless at this point.

 

Also, I find it odd that you would know exactly how Gretzky would play today with today's equipment and no red line.  How do you know this?  Again, you never watched him play so you would have no clue how he would fair in today's game. 

[Elias Pettersson]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Pittsburgh added an older Trottier too. Trottier, in his prime, was another guy in that second tier or greatest forwards. Add in the great D and (IMHAO) Crosby is in the 6-10 range if the greatest to play list. OV is for sure outside of the top 10. And as great a goal scorer as OV was he wouldn’t be in my top 20 greatest players. 

 

I forgot to include McDavid.  He will probably pass Crosby at some point for #5 overall.  So, Crosby will be between 6-10 like you said.  You also have to factor in Dmen like Lidstrom and Bourque and goalies like Roy and Hasek.  And Jagr.  And Ovi as well...

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I forgot to include McDavid.  He will probably pass Crosby at some point for #5 overall.  So, Crosby will be between 6-10 like you said.  You also have to factor in Dmen like Lidstrom and Bourque and goalies like Roy and Hasek.  And Jagr.  And Ovi as well...

Yup. And Howe, Harvey, Rocket, Morenz, Belliveau, etc. There have been some fantastic players over the years. The one thing all the greatest of their era have done is lead their clubs to Cups. Until McDavid leads his club to a Cup (IMHAO) he falls short of being included with the greatest of the great. He’s in the Dionne, Perrault, etc group. Fabulous talent for sure. 

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Yup. And Howe, Harvey, Rocket, Morenz, Belliveau, etc. There have been some fantastic players over the years. The one thing all the greatest of their era have done is lead their clubs to Cups. Until McDavid leads his club to a Cup (IMHAO) he falls short of being included with the greatest of the great. He’s in the Dionne, Perrault, etc group. Fabulous talent for sure. 

 

This is true.  I would never put McDavid ahead of Crosby or even Yzerman if he never wins a cup.  Like you said he will be similar to Dionne.  Yes, Doug Harvey and Jean Beliveau also need to be in the top 10-15 all time greats...

Edited January 24 by Elias Pettersson

[IBatch]

5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

I loved Joe Sakic.  I would take Yzerman and Messier over him though.  But you are right, Joe is also in that tier.  Even a guy like Ron Francis as well.  I don't think Pittsburgh wins those cups without Francis.

 

But in Anthony's defence, I would put Crosby ahead of all of those guys and #1 in my second tier.  My first tier is Wayne, Mario, Orr and Howe.  So, Crosby might be the #5 all time player in NHL history when he is done.  Jagr would be a close #6 I think....

Just going by how things have gone so far.   I don't think Crosby has had to deal with the same quality of competition as players from the 80's and 90's did.     Jagr right now, is still ahead of Crosby.   He's also a great litmus test, given he played 90'-2000's (as is Mario really), and came back in his 40's and still could use his big butt to play keep away, although his hands and skating weren't the same.     Jagr was the best player in the world really (ok maybe Hasek) once Mario went down, and kept that going right until just after the lockout.  Crosby had a few years where he was the best too.   But prime Jagr was better.     Don't think he's done enough (yet) to separate himself distinctly, from a group of guys that would include Yzerman, Jagr, Messier, and a couple defenseman, Borque for sure, we won't ever see that again,  22 years of great from start to finish, more all-star berths than anyone not named Howe, including Gretzky, and i'm with Biestra, Coffey was so special that he was chasing Orr's seemingly unbeatable records.  

 

Gretzky. 

Orr. 

Mario

Howe 

 

Big gap.

 

Rest in no order but certainly up for debate.

 

Sawchuk.  Roy. Hasek.  Borque.  Coffey.  Potvin.  Messier. Jagr. Yzerman.   Bossy.   Crosby.  Ovi.  Bobby Hull.   Sakic.    Harvey.  Shore.   Richard.  Beliveau. 

 

I won't include Lidstrom in the second tier.  That has to be reserved for guys who started within a few years and or right away, and blew the doors off.    Dionne should be in the above tier, but always the bridesmaid.  And no cups.  

 

 

[IBatch]

5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Yup. And Howe, Harvey, Rocket, Morenz, Belliveau, etc. There have been some fantastic players over the years. The one thing all the greatest of their era have done is lead their clubs to Cups. Until McDavid leads his club to a Cup (IMHAO) he falls short of being included with the greatest of the great. He’s in the Dionne, Perrault, etc group. Fabulous talent for sure. 

It would be hard to leave off Ovi in the top 20 all-time.    But from what i've been told, Bobby Hull was incredible, built like a bull, and is still considered one of the fastest skaters all-time.    Imagine those two have a lot in common (aside from the speed and the physique, Hulls got Ovi there).    

 

As for the hardware.   Agree Dionne falls short, just like Thorton did.   The only thing id say though, too many teams today, for that to be such a penalty.    Used to be, without a cup, you'd have to be awfully special, like Dionne, to get into the HHOF.    That changed when Federko was finally in, and opened the floodgates for a tier just below the very best of the best.   McDavid for sure could give Dionne a run for his money.  

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Just going by how things have gone so far.   I don't think Crosby has had to deal with the same quality of competition as players from the 80's and 90's did.     Jagr right now, is still ahead of Crosby.   He's also a great litmus test, given he played 90'-2000's (as is Mario really), and came back in his 40's and still could use his big butt to play keep away, although his hands and skating weren't the same.     Jagr was the best player in the world really (ok maybe Hasek) once Mario went down, and kept that going right until just after the lockout.  Crosby had a few years where he was the best too.   But prime Jagr was better.     Don't think he's done enough (yet) to separate himself distinctly, from a group of guys that would include Yzerman, Jagr, Messier, and a couple defenseman, Borque for sure, we won't ever see that again,  22 years of great from start to finish, more all-star berths than anyone not named Howe, including Gretzky, and i'm with Biestra, Coffey was so special that he was chasing Orr's seemingly unbeatable records.  

 

Gretzky. 

Orr. 

Mario

Howe 

 

Big gap.

 

Rest in no order but certainly up for debate.

 

Sawchuk.  Roy. Hasek.  Borque.  Coffey.  Potvin.  Messier. Jagr. Yzerman.   Bossy.   Crosby.  Ovi.  Bobby Hull.   Sakic.    Harvey.  Shore.   Richard.  Beliveau. 

 

I won't include Lidstrom in the second tier.  That has to be reserved for guys who started within a few years and or right away, and blew the doors off.    Dionne should be in the above tier, but always the bridesmaid.  And no cups.  

 

 

 

So many great players.  All from different eras.  I actually hate the era comparison and the stat guys who try and adjust the points for different eras.  It's kinda stupid if you ask me.  Nobody, not even you or me, would know how Gretzky would fair in today's NHL.  All I know is that in his era he dominated his peers, much more so than Crosby has dominated his peers.  How many Hart trophies and Art Ross trophies has Crosby won against his peers?  Did Crosby win his scoring titles by 75-80 points over his peers?  This is how you can define greatness IMO.  What did the player do against his peers at the time he played with the same rules and the same equipment and the same goalies.  

 

Gretzky was so far above his peers that they literally retired his number league wide.  The only player in history to have that happen.  Crosby did not dominate his peers to the same degree.  Like not even close.  This is how I look at it.  Trying to guess how many points Gretzky would score in today's NHL to try and downplay his greatness in his era is kinda dumb.  Nobody, not even Gretzky himself, would know the answer to that question...

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

So many great players.  All from different eras.  I actually hate the era comparison and the stat guys who try and adjust the points for different eras.  It's kinda stupid if you ask me.  Nobody, not even you or me, would know how Gretzky would fair in today's NHL.  All I know is that in his era he dominated his peers, much more so than Crosby has dominated his peers.  How many Hart trophies and Art Ross trophies has Crosby won against his peers?  Did Crosby win his scoring titles by 75-80 points over his peers?  This is how you can define greatness IMO.  What did the player do against his peers at the time he played with the same rules and the same equipment and the same goalies.  

 

Gretzky was so far above his peers that they literally retired his number league wide.  The only player in history to have that happen.  Crosby did not dominate his peers to the same degree.  Like not even close.  This is how I look at it.  Trying to guess how many points Gretzky would score in today's NHL to try and downplay his greatness in his era is kinda dumb.  Nobody, not even Gretzky himself, would know the answer to that question...

Gretzky created the 32 team league we have now.   He was more then Jordan, more then McGwire, Manning or whomever.   Tiger Woods.    The most dominant athlete in the history of pro sports.    If it was so easy, why haven't we seen anything like it since?   And i'm sorry, if guys are crushing Iginla, Joe New went on and won a cup, and you can bet Calgary fans weren't that happy for a years after that trade, and later Iginla becomes the best, or one of the best of 2000's.. are we trying to say, Crosby was miles ahead of him too?  Or Martin St. Louis?   Sakic also scored 100 points at 37, after the rule changes, just like Crosby did.  At the start of his career.   He'd have to score 180-200 at least a couple times right?  

 

All he ever did, from the time he stepped on the ice, was dominate.   As a kid.   Folks said he'd be murdered in the WHA, and then murdered in the NHL.   It's not like they didn't try.   They did.   Funny thing, he was told to play like Bobby Clarke in a tournament as a young teen, as in avoid the tough areas, don't try and beat them physically.   At the time Clarke was the best....not Lafluer, not Dionne.    Every step of the way, he absorbed and added to his toolbox.   Eventually injuries took some shine away, even without his shot he managed though.    It's goofy to even go there.   I've never seen a player take a snap shot off a face off, go through every body far top corner (late in the third to tie a game).   Gretzky made hyperbole, seem understated.   Thornton was the best passer of his era.   Oats was better or at least as good, and Gretzky made Oats,  or anyone, look garden variety.

 

  

Gretzky was doing things nobody can.   Played 5-8 steps ahead.    Without any physical gifts.   He wasn't built like Messier.    Or Howe.   More like Bobby Clarke.   Even EP is probably stronger than he was now.    Despite not been the fastest skater, having the hardest shot etc ... he could pick corners, was an amazing stick handler and an amazing skater on his edges..and well could score goals like nobody before or since other then maybe Mike Bossy for a decade. 

 

It's silly because it's so easy to compare eras.   If a great player, is still going at it, age 32-35 against the best of the next class...well how easy is that?    Despite all his hobbling injuries, playoff battles etc ... Mario is also a good litmus test.   Whenever he came back, dead puck era, he still did it.   Sakic still did it and was one of the best in the dead puck era.   So was Jagr.   Dead puck era didn't slow Bure down either.   Or Selanne or Kariya.    Or Forsberg.     Alfie also scored over 100 at 34 after the rule changes...  I'm not certain Crosby would have survived, if Forsberg, Bure and Lindros couldn't.   Zubov, a 50 point D in the dead puck era, exploded to 71 at 37...after the rule changes.   

 

Im certain,  Lindros and Forsberg would more then give Crosby a run for his money if they all were Crosby's age, same with Yzerman, Federov, Bure and Sakic.  

Edited January 24 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

11 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

The point is are names that are not in the record book, better shooters/goal scorers than Ovechkin? How is it guys with wooden twigs have a higher shooting% than guys today? Is this league just trash and reluctant to score? Or is it that the players from before the  benefit from weaker goaltending and much less shot blocks?

 

Shot blocks wouldn't hurt the shooting percentage because it doesn't count as a shot on goal.

 

That said, I have always said that they should change players stats to have it be goals over shot attempts.  Players are better off at present with shooting % if they miss the net than if they make the goalie stop the shot.

[AnthonyG]

3 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Shot blocks wouldn't hurt the shooting percentage because it doesn't count as a shot on goal.

 

That said, I have always said that they should change players stats to have it be goals over shot attempts.  Players are better off at present with shooting % if they miss the net than if they make the goalie stop the shot.

No but shot blocks back it increasingly difficult to score, with less shot blocks you have a higher chance of scoring, which is another reason scoring is harder to come by today and shooting% was higher back then. More unblocked shots leading to rebounds/goals

[Elias Pettersson]

Will Ovi ever score again? 

[Dumb Nuck]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Will Ovi ever score again? 

As sure as I’ll drink beer again, just maybe not as soon.

[Elias Pettersson]

Ovi is on pace for 14 goals this year. If he averages 14 goals a year for the rest of his career, then he will need this year plus 4 more years to break the record. 
 

What do you think?  Can Ovi still do it?  

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Ovi is on pace for 14 goals this year. If he averages 14 goals a year for the rest of his career, then he will need this year plus 4 more years to break the record. 
 

What do you think?  Can Ovi still do it?  

Maybe against us?  ...

Edited January 25 by IBatch

[cripplereh]

I really think Ovi will try one more year and if it's like this and he isn't close he will retire.

[Elias Pettersson]

7 hours ago, cripplereh said:

I really think Ovi will try one more year and if it's like this and he isn't close he will retire.

I agree. I can’t see him playing an extra 2-3 years just to try and break the record if he’s only scoring 10 goals a year. Plus Washington may not re-sign him if his goal total is that low. Certainly not at $9 million. 

[Diamonds]

I have a feeling Ovi might have taken breaking Gretzky's goals record for granted. He saw how close he was and thought he would be able to just coast to the record. It looked like he had a hard-partying offseason and came to training camp pretty out of shape. I might have been a wakeup call that at his age he can't get take the summer off.

 

However, in addition to that his shooting percentage is by far the lowest he's ever had in his career. If he was scoring at the same percentage he was last year he would have an extra 13 goals already this season and it wouldn't look so bad.